is Sephiroth the best bad guy in the series?

[The Crystal]

Ryu, what i really wanted to prove is that he is the strongest in FVII. This is already proved. And i never said that he could restrict magic, i only said that he have controll over it.
Something that you don't understand Ryu is "logic" and "common sense". What you are sugesting is that after Sephiroth talked about destroying the world with corrupted Lifestream... He summoned normal dark clouds that don't have anything to do with nothing, just because! And these normal dark clouds begun to descend in direction of earth just because! Come on dude, this don't make any sense and you know it.
I cannot prove that they are corrupted Lifestream, but they aren't NORMAL dark clouds(because clouds don't descend to earth like "tentacles"). So, what they are? The most LOGICAL explanation, is that it is the same corrupted Lifestream that Sephiroth was talking about, seconds before this happened. Like i said before, exist some things that are so obvious, that we don't need prove. SE will not explain all the details of everything, because they know that we are intelligent beings that can think for ourselfes. Just because RF don't say it, doesn't mean that is wrong, even because you have to admit that my explanation about the corrupted Lifestream, have much more sense than your explanation about "normal dark clouds that appeared out of nowhere, for any reason at all".
Is about interpretation? Yes it is. But some times, what you are watching is something so simple to understand, that you don't need to be a genius, or you don't need any prove, to understand what is happening. Sephiroth explained everything that would happen in that scene.

An example of another scene that is easy to understand. When Tifa is talking with Cloud(before he go to the Sleeping Forest), and she is sad and almost crying. Why she was that way? Because she was sad that Cloud would "run away" and be a loner again. But she never litterally explained why she was sad, so, we can give many other interpretations. They are valid, but the most LOGICAL one, is that she was sad because of Cloud's attitude.

We are not retardeds. We can think for ourselfes, and we don't need proves to explain EVERYTHING.
Okay i admit, what you said about the dark clouds can be true, but you have to admit that what i said make MUCH more sense.

And like i said, if you don't agree with me, then you can create your own explanation of why Sephiroth is the strongest in FFVII. Because he is, and this is what i was trying to prove(and is already proved).

And to be frank, i'm losing my patience with you. But i'm not in this forum to begin fights, or insults or etc. so, before this thread become "ugly", what do you think if we just stop? Don't get me wrong, but i'm a little tired of arguing about this topic with you.

[PuPu]

"logic" and "common sense".

With logic and common sense, we could say the sun and the moon are the same size and Earth is flat. We can't always rely on it.

I just wanted to point that out is all. Other than that, yes, what you said was right and I agree.

[IsntFFIXGrand]

That's your opinion. In my opinion, Sephiroth is the one of the worst FF villains. He's, well, a mamas boy. I personally think Kuja is the best villain.

Kuja wasn't a villain. If you played FFIX to the end, you'll see that Kuja sacrificed himself to save your party after defeating Necron.


Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy
________________________________________
Being forgotten is worse than dying.

[IsntFFIXGrand]

Don't exist a "category". "Strongest" means that he is stronger than anyone else, simple as that. What Kitase said was clear like water.

And yet, it isn't, because "Strongest" doesn't prove your other claims.

Now, about the "abilities that i claim he can use that he's never even been hinted at having". I said that he can corrupt the Lifestream, and the name of this is Geostigma. This is in the movie, just watch it.
I said too, that he can use the corrupted Lifestream to directly corrupt the pure one. You said that this isn't stated in the RF. Little Ryu, you know what is the main reason of the RF existence? To explain to us, things that weren't showed or weren't explained in the movie. So, why the hell the RF would explain something, that is already explained in the movie?!

Child, I have been incredibly patient with you. Stop testing me before I lose my patience. Yes, Sephiroth is corrupting the lifestream. He is NOT, as you claimed prevously, using the tainted stream to direct corrupt the untainted. There is also no reason to believe the boy can restrict the use of magic by other people, as you also tried to claim he could.

Sephiroth: "The soul of the dead who carried the Geostigma...
That, and with the Lifestream, controls the flow of the planet.
Eventually it'll corrupt it...

KEY WORD: Eventually. Do you know what eventually means? Over a significant period of time.

What i really want, Cloud...
Is to travel the Darkness of cosmos using this planet as my vessel.
As Mother did before me...
One day we will discover a new world.
We will create the future on that ground."

After this, he summon the corrupted one to cover the sky, and with a wave of his hand(one second before attacking Cloud) "order" the corrupted one, to descend(in form of "tentacles") to destroy everything(because is very obvious that, to transform the planet in a vessel, he have to destroy all life in it first).

Or he's trying to spread more Jenova Cells via the clouds. Or he just thinks they make a nice atmosphere. Can you please show evidence that this IS the lifestream? Especially since all official sources just refer to them as dark clouds? And since they wind up not doing a gorram thing to the ground in any of the incedental shots we do get to see? Or evidence that shows he has such control over the lifestream, when he doesn't even have enough control to create an unfragmented Shinentai?

All of this is very clear. Everyone that i know(that readed the UOG, RF, etc.) agree with me. You are the only one that disagree.

Just because something is 'clear' does not make it so. It is 'clear' to a child that it is the sun that moves around, not the earth, when the reality is the opposite. If you wish to convince people of your claims, then actually provide evidence.
And please, in the future, avoid such blanket statements that "everyone" agrees with you. This very thread- yes, other than me- is proof of the disagreement.

But even if you choosed to ignore the official words of SE, quotes of the movie, logic and common sense, you still can create your own explanation of why Sephiroth is the strongest. Because he is, and this is not a topic of discussion anymore.

No, this isn't about Sephiroth's relative strength compared to other FF7 characters anymore. This is about YOU providing some gorram evidence of the you've been spouting.
Though where you're applying logic and common sense escapes me. I see lots of wild claims and conclusion jumping though.

Well said. Well said.


Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy
________________________________________
Being forgotten is worse than dying.

[Goldenboko]

That's your opinion. In my opinion, Sephiroth is the one of the worst FF villains. He's, well, a mamas boy. I personally think Kuja is the best villain.

Kuja wasn't a villain. If you played FFIX to the end, you'll see that Kuja sacrificed himself to save your party after defeating Necron.


Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy
________________________________________
Being forgotten is worse than dying.

I think this post will clear that idea right up.

Saving one person doesn't make you a good guy. If Hitler stopped a little girl from dying I still think peoples opinions of him wouldn't change.

[Ryushikaze]

Ryu, what i really wanted to prove is that he is the strongest in FVII. This is already proved. And i never said that he could restrict magic, i only said that he have controll over it.

So, your entire argument based around Sephiroth not allowing people to use lifestream based magic never existed, then?
Edit: Y'know, I recall asking for some context for the quote some time ago. You've never provided. Please, point me to where I can examine the quote on my own, so I can determine whether or not Kitase is saying what you think he is saying.

Something that you don't understand Ryu is "logic" and "common sense". What you are sugesting is that after Sephiroth talked about destroying the world with corrupted Lifestream... He summoned normal dark clouds that don't have anything to do with nothing, just because!

Or perhaps he summoned these dark clouds as a simple yet effective demonstration of his power, to intimidate his foe, and to reduce his visibility.

And these normal dark clouds begun to descend in direction of earth just because! Come on dude, this don't make any sense and you know it.

You seem to have the delusion that I am saying these clouds are not under Sephiroth's control. That is not what I am saying.

I cannot prove that they are corrupted Lifestream, but they aren't NORMAL dark clouds(because clouds don't descend to earth like "tentacles"). So, what they are? The most LOGICAL explanation, is that it is the same corrupted Lifestream that Sephiroth was talking about, seconds before this happened. Like i said before, exist some things that are so obvious, that we don't need prove. SE will not explain all the details of everything, because they know that we are intelligent beings that can think for ourselfes. Just because RF don't say it, doesn't mean that is wrong, even because you have to admit that my explanation about the corrupted Lifestream, have much more sense than your explanation about "normal dark clouds that appeared out of nowhere, for any reason at all".

That is not my explanation, it has never been my explanation, please do not really valid point and i'm impressed by your thinking. me.
And no, your explanation does not make much sense. Since it fails to A: present sufficient evidence for it to be credible, and B: Fails to explain the utter lack of damage the supposed lifestream causes the surroundings and persons it permeates during the fight.

Is about interpretation? Yes it is. But some times, what you are watching is something so simple to understand, that you don't need to be a genius, or you don't need any prove, to understand what is happening. Sephiroth explained everything that would happen in that scene.

Except in that scene, he was discussing an eventuality, by his own words.
And yes, you do need 'prove', or proof, as we in the real world know it by. When one seeks to assert ANYTHING, proof is required. Observe, collate, theorized, double check, repeat.

An example of another scene that is easy to understand. When Tifa is talking with Cloud(before he go to the Sleeping Forest), and she is sad and almost crying. Why she was that way? Because she was sad that Cloud would "run away" and be a loner again. But she never litterally explained why she was sad, so, we can give many other interpretations. They are valid, but the most LOGICAL one, is that she was sad because of Cloud's attitude.

Well, using parsimony and body language to infer a motive is in a completely different echelon than "Attacked the world with corrupted lifestream". Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You aren't providing evidence, extraordinary or otherwise.

We are not retardeds. We can think for ourselfes, and we don't need proves to explain EVERYTHING.
Okay i admit, what you said about the dark clouds can be true, but you have to admit that what i said make MUCH more sense.

No. It does not. Because these clouds- referred to only as clouds in the official materials (RF, plot summary, p083 "Sephiroth appears at 6:00 in the evening. His appearance causes dark clouds to cover the area") look and act nothing like any other form of life energy we have ever seen, because these clouds do not deal any damage to anything, which we would expect it to do given that lifeflares have been causing destruction, and because, and here's the fun part, Cloud and Sephiroth are actually jumping through the haze of these clouds throughout their fight, with nary a reaction.
And yes, it strikes me that referring to 'the tainted lifestream' as dark clouds in the plot section is akin to referring to a Full blown 200MT Nuke as nite light.

And like i said, if you don't agree with me, then you can create your own explanation of why Sephiroth is the strongest in FFVII. Because he is, and this is what i was trying to prove(and is already proved).

Sure he's the strongest. Strongest how has always been the question. An example of what I mean is Nomura is on record as stating that Cloud is one of the weakest final fantasy characters of all time. Doesn't make much sense? It's because "strong" and "weak" do not always mean "teh awesome power", and often are used to discuss other traits, such as emotional strength, force of will, etc.

And to be frank, i'm losing my patience with you. But i'm not in this forum to begin fights, or insults or etc. so, before this thread become "ugly", what do you think if we just stop? Don't get me wrong, but i'm a little tired of arguing about this topic with you.

The only way this thread will become ugly is if you make it ugly. And you're trying my patience at least as much as I try yours, but I at least proffer evidence for my argument. You've got one statement and a lot of non sequitors.

[The Crystal]

Like i said before, i'm losing my patience with you Ryu, so, if you don't agree with what i said(about the corrupted Lifestream), i just give up.
I will just talk about what really is important, that is Sephiroth's strenght.

BTW, you say the quote that 'proves' this is from Reunion files, yet I can't seem to locate it in there. Care to point me to a page number?

Found in the AC director's commentary from the JP DVD

Sure he's the strongest. Strongest how has always been the question. An example of what I mean is Nomura is on record as stating that Cloud is one of the weakest final fantasy characters of all time. Doesn't make much sense?

No it doesn't, but that doesn't mean that is not the truth. If SE, one day, say that Cloud is the more weak, is because he is. If SE say that when Sephiroth was a baby, he could destroy a galaxy with just a fart, is because he could. They are the creators of the game, and anything that they say about the "universe" that they created, is the truth. Even if it doesn't make sense.

It's because "strong" and "weak" do not always mean "teh awesome power", and often are used to discuss other traits, such as emotional strength, force of will, etc.

This isn't greate?! Everytime that i don't agree with something that SE say, i can distort their words to my own interpratation! This is so cool!
Unfortunately, this is not the way that things work. If we don't know what SE wanted to say, we have to interpret it in the litterall meaning, because this is the only thing that we have.
If Kitase didn't want to say, that SE couldn’t make any other character stronger than Sephiroth, then he wouldn't have used the word "stronger", he would have used another word.
If you love evidence so much, can you prove the true meaning of Kitase's words?

[The Crystal]

Like i said before, i'm losing my patience with you Ryu, so, if you don't agree with what i said(about the corrupted Lifestream), i just give up.
I will just talk about what really is important, that is Sephiroth's strenght.

BTW, you say the quote that 'proves' this is from Reunion files, yet I can't seem to locate it in there. Care to point me to a page number?

Found in the AC director's commentary from the JP DVD

Sure he's the strongest. Strongest how has always been the question. An example of what I mean is Nomura is on record as stating that Cloud is one of the weakest final fantasy characters of all time. Doesn't make much sense?

No it doesn't, but that doesn't mean that is not the truth. If SE, one day, say that Cloud is the more weak, is because he is. If SE say that when Sephiroth was a baby, he could destroy a galaxy with just a fart, is because he can. They are the creators of the game, and anything that they say about the "universe" that they created, is the truth. Even if it doesn't make sense.

It's because "strong" and "weak" do not always mean "teh awesome power", and often are used to discuss other traits, such as emotional strength, force of will, etc.

This isn't greate?! Everytime that i don't agree with something that SE say, i can distort their words to my own interpratation! This is so cool!
Unfortunately, this is not the way that things work. If we don't know what SE wanted to say, we have to interpret it in the litterall meaning, because this is the only thing that we have.
If Kitase didn't want to say, that SE couldn’t make any other character stronger than Sephiroth, then he wouldn't have used the word "stronger", he would have used another word.
If you love evidence so much, can you prove the true meaning of Kitase's words?

[YTDN]

This is a funny argument to watch. You two have degraded to insulting each others debating skills.

Personally though, If we're gonna argue this in regarding the FF7 universe only, the only way to do it is to ignore all evidence that makes no sense, even if SE said it.

Sorry if the above statement made no sense. I'm sleepy at the moment, so I can't put my thoughts into words.

[Ryushikaze]

Like i said before, i'm losing my patience with you Ryu, so, if you don't agree with what i said(about the corrupted Lifestream), i just give up.
I will just talk about what really is important, that is Sephiroth's strenght.

Concession accepted. Now, would you like to know why I disagree? It's because you have given absolutely no reason for me to believe that the clouds are in fact the tainted stream, or that he can do what you have claimed he can do with it.

Found in the AC director's commentary from the JP DVD

Good to know. Now can you provide me the context, like I asked in my edit above?

No it doesn't, but that doesn't mean that is not the truth. If SE, one day, say that Cloud is the more weak, is because he is. If SE say that when Sephiroth was a baby, he could destroy a galaxy with just a fart, is because he can. They are the creators of the game, and anything that they say about the "universe" that they created, is the truth. Even if it doesn't make sense.

Hi there. The sentence you decided to try and respond to was not, in fact, the end of a point, but instead a rhetorical question leading into the last sentence. Try waiting until the end of a point- or at least make sure that you do respond to the point in total if you do decide to try and rebut lesser points before the end- to respond. It helps you avoid really valid point and i'm impressed by your thinking.ning me, which is what you are currently doing.

This isn't greate?! Everytime that i don't agree with something that SE say, i can distort their words to my own interpratation! This is so cool!
Unfortunately, this is not the way that things work. If we don't know what SE wanted to say, we have to interpret it in the litterall meaning, because this is the only thing that we have.
If Kitase didn't want to say, that SE couldn’t make any other character stronger than Sephiroth, then he wouldn't have used the word "stronger", he would have used another word.
If you love evidence so much, can you prove the true meaning of Kitase's words?

Wow, this is such a really valid point and i'm impressed by your thinking. we're in Smegging OZ. The point, child, if you had bothered to take my argument as it was rather than as you tried to make it out to be, was that "strong" and "weak" are quite often used to refer to aspects of a person, such as a weak or strong will, instead of talking about the person's battle prowess. The issue is complicated further by this being a translation from Japanese, and literal translations are actually pretty damn rare from Japanese to English. If I could listen to what he said, in context, I could actually determine what Kitase literally said, which is why I've been asking for you to point me to where your source for it was. Unless, of course, you've never managed to lay hands on this source, like you hadn't with the reunion files.
As for 'taking them literally', you do realize that literalism does not help your cause, si? But then again, we don't have to take them literally. It is, in fact, ill advised. What we should do instead is take them parsimoniously, and if there is a vague statement, try and go with the least outrageous interpretation of their words.
As for your last little bit, would you care to do the same? You are the one saying that Kitase means, in effect, "This means Sephiroth is the most powerful being in the FF7 continuity, ever, and he can never be dethroned". I'm saying "This statement is too vague to conclude that." I'm damn close to the negative case, which does not suffer the burden of proof. What little burden I have should be fulfilled in giving other examples of the creators using the terms in methods other than the one you insist it applies to.

This is a funny argument to watch. You two have degraded to insulting each others debating skills.

Well, the methodology used to reach a conclusion IS an important part of determining a conclusion's validity. As a rationalist, I'm pretty severe on people who don't employ the scientific method, or try and strongly assert their claim with no or insufficient evidence. Though I've hardly resorted to "just" insulting him. I think I can insult and rebut in the same fell swoop. I do agree that this argument is amusing. It's part of why I'm still involved in it.

Personally though, If we're gonna argue this in regarding the FF7 universe only, the only way to do it is to ignore all evidence that makes no sense, even if SE said it.

In short- try and find the outlier data and weigh it accordingly. Makes sense.

Sorry if the above statement made no sense. I'm sleepy at the moment, so I can't put my thoughts into words.

Makes pretty good sense, actually. Though I'd like to see the expanded and fully concious version of this post at another date.

[The Crystal]

I'm sorry Ryu, but i will stop now. I'm really tired of arguing with you about this. Is useless. You say that you want evidences, but this is not truth. What you want are evidences that support your opinion. And when someone present an evidence that is against it, you try to distort it with your own opinion, or you just ignore it. Presenting evidence to you is useless.

[Ryushikaze]

Pot, Kettle, Black, Crystal.

Concession accepted.

[Carl the Llama]

Ryushikaze, They dont accept what your are saying and are not conceeding to you, they in truth cannot be bothered to argue with you anymore, tell me: where does it say that the conceed to what you are saying? do they specificly say "yes Ryushikaze I conceed your point you were right" I mean from where im sitting it looks like your ASSUMEING that they are conceeding when all through you constantly ask for proof. Additionally calling someone who is but 2 years younger then you Child seem's to me like your stamping your foot. oh and for the record I am 23 and therefore not a child.

[Avarice-ness]

I'm sorry Ryu, but i will stop now. I'm really tired of arguing with you about this. Is useless. You say that you want evidences, but this is not truth. What you want are evidences that support your opinion. And when someone present an evidence that is against it, you try to distort it with your own opinion, or you just ignore it. Presenting evidence to you is useless.

I just don't think he's accepting all evidence that is based outside of gameplay or what we see in the movie or things implied in the movie. Which I don't really either, it's just easier to not argue with that and talk about things off the gameplay since that's what all the other games are.

[Forsaken Lover]

Please. Let's stay on-topic.

To answer the topic: no, he isn't. Kuja and Kefka are much, much better.