Japan vs. English

[Fuego]

I think it'd be easier to learn a language if there were a place near you that spoke the language that you could easily travel to.

Like for me, i live in texas ... its kinda hard to goto japan to interact with people to learn and practice japanese. And here in texas there aren't many people here who do speak it as a primary language. I could learn french easier due to my location ... lousianna or canada (creole). Spanish from mexico.

But when i attemp to communicate with people online (japanese) i alway keep my mini english to japanese translator with me

I don't wanna insult some one unknowingly ...

[SoupForInsanity]

While I don't mean to be feeding an argument/discussion here more than it needs to be, I still feel a tad offended at your arguments...
I understand you're saying that you don't expect fluent english from Japanese players but... statements like this

I'm not expecting fluent english from most Japanese players, but enough to make themselves understood really isn't too much to ask for, I think.

While I do understand that English is a harder language for Japanese people (due to not being in the same language
family), it is far from impossible to learn it, and they do actually learn English at school. I think it's strange
that so few of those I've met ingame know English, I don't expect them to know the language.

are a little... strange themselves I think. I don't like to pick apart what people say, but things like this DO bother me.
Remember, this is a game made in Japan, by a Japanese company, on a Japanese system (if you're playing PS2 version) with a story that was developed in Japanese. They have no obligation to you, to try to make themselves understood, even if you're not expecting them to be fluent or whatever, you shouldn't be "asking for" them to make themselves understood to -you-, because -you- are able to speak an international language. Even if they can speak English, who says they want to?
It -isn't- far from impossible to learn, and I have japanese friends that have done exchanges in other countries and have learned English, or other languages rapidly (like most people when immersed). But if they haven't had the chance to spend lots of time in another country (like many people in many countries) they would not have enough exposure to the language to really get a good handle on it, and also do not have the best teaching methods, either (from what I've seen.)
Europe, etc. is a different case. It is more closely tied with America, the English language (yes, of course english is not only America), and culture than Japan ever was and is today, despite the heavy influence of American and other foreign cultures there.
A European, etc. child would most definately have more exposure and reason to use English than a Japanese child would.
Again, I know you don't expect them to speak English, but don't be surprised at it either. It kind of sounds by the way you stated those arguments that you -did- expect more, but now you only expect less than "average".

[Ouch!]

I disagree, I don't think of Spanish, French and Chinese as nearly as international as English.

Mandarin is the international language of the business world, even moreso than English.

[Lionx]

I disagree, I don't think of Spanish, French and Chinese as nearly as international as English.

Mandarin is the international language of the business world, even moreso than English.

QFT

My opinion however, is that i rather have a good NA party since i can understand them, instead if picking out parts of the japanese's Kanji and trying to figure out what they say in bits and pieces.

[Rostum]

I disagree, I don't think of Spanish, French and Chinese as nearly as international as English.
Furthermore, I never said I expected them to know English, it is in fact more the opposite. When I see a JP player, I assume he doesn't speak English.
The thing is, I see plenty of French, Italians, Swedes, Germans, Spaniols, Portugese, Polish, Greek, even Brazilian people online, and they all have had understandable English. While I do understand that English is a harder language for Japanese people (due to not being in the same language family), it is far from impossible to learn it, and they do actually learn English at school. I think it's strange that so few of those I've met ingame know English, I don't expect them to know the language.

To me it also seems as if some people in this thread assume all English speakers are North American too .

I think you need to understand that Europe has a lot of different languages in it's country, and the lifestyle is a lot diffferent to Japan. In Europe they pretty much have to learn English fluently.

I disagree, I don't think of Spanish, French and Chinese as nearly as international as English.

Mandarin is the international language of the business world, even moreso than English.

QFT

Quoted for even more truth!

[Mirage]

While I don't mean to be feeding an argument/discussion here more than it needs to be, I still feel a tad offended at your arguments...
I understand you're saying that you don't expect fluent english from Japanese players but... statements like this

I'm not expecting fluent english from most Japanese players, but enough to make themselves understood really isn't too much to ask for, I think.

While I do understand that English is a harder language for Japanese people (due to not being in the same language
family), it is far from impossible to learn it, and they do actually learn English at school. I think it's strange
that so few of those I've met ingame know English, I don't expect them to know the language.

are a little... strange themselves I think. I don't like to pick apart what people say, but things like this DO bother me.
Remember, this is a game made in Japan, by a Japanese company, on a Japanese system (if you're playing PS2 version) with a story that was developed in Japanese. They have no obligation to you, to try to make themselves understood, even if you're not expecting them to be fluent or whatever, you shouldn't be "asking for" them to make themselves understood to -you-, because -you- are able to speak an international language. Even if they can speak English, who says they want to?
It -isn't- far from impossible to learn, and I have japanese friends that have done exchanges in other countries and have learned English, or other languages rapidly (like most people when immersed). But if they haven't had the chance to spend lots of time in another country (like many people in many countries) they would not have enough exposure to the language to really get a good handle on it, and also do not have the best teaching methods, either (from what I've seen.)
Europe, etc. is a different case. It is more closely tied with America, the English language (yes, of course english is not only America), and culture than Japan ever was and is today, despite the heavy influence of American and other foreign cultures there.
A European, etc. child would most definately have more exposure and reason to use English than a Japanese child would.
Again, I know you don't expect them to speak English, but don't be surprised at it either. It kind of sounds by the way you stated those arguments that you -did- expect more, but now you only expect less than "average".

It's just what I've experienced ingame. Most japanese players I've seen or partied with have either not been able to, or chose not, to communicate in English. Maybe I've just had some bad luck, I don't know. One thing I do know though, is that if I knew Japanese, I would do my best to communicate with other japanese players in a party. Likewise, if a Japanese person happens to know English, I think he should use English to communicate with non-Japanese players in a party. Choosing not to use it just because he doesn't want to (like you suggested) makes no sense to me, really.
If a japanese player is good at English, I become happy, because it becomes much easier to communicate with that person.

Okay, "not too much to ask for" was perhaps a bit over the edge. I retract that statement, sorry. If they don't know it, it's kinda silly to expect them to learn it for just the sake of this game.

And i think this: "Remember, this is a game made in Japan, by a Japanese company, on a Japanese system (if you're playing PS2 version) with a story that was developed in Japanese." is pretty irrelevant. The game is released for Europeans and Americans just as much as for Japanese players. I don't think this should have anything to do with this discussion. If the game was released only in Japan, and foreigners had to import it, then this would have been a valid point.

I disagree, I don't think of Spanish, French and Chinese as nearly as international as English.

Mandarin is the international language of the business world, even moreso than English.

I'm not talking about the business world.

[Rostum]

It's just what I've experienced ingame. Most japanese players I've seen or partied with have either not been able to, or chose not, to communicate in English. Maybe I've just had some bad luck, I don't know. One thing I do know though, is that if I knew Japanese, I would do my best to communicate with other japanese players in a party. If a Japanese player knows English but choose not to use it in a party with non-Japanese, I think he's being silly. If a japanese player is good at English, I become happy, because it becomes much easier to communicate with that person.

Okay, "not too much to ask for" was perhaps a bit over the edge. If they don't know it, it's kinda silly to expect them to learn it for just the sake of this game.

I think you need to understand that Japan is still very racist (generalized statement, but oh well), and a lot of them won't talk to you in english because they think you are scum. It's the harsh reality.

It's also not just a matter of them not being able to communicate, so they won't party with you. It's because there are so many stupid NA players (and they classify other english countries as being NA for some reason), and they hate them. I remember seeing a search comment by a Japanese player from NewCompany (known to be very very racist and monopolized a lot of FFXI), which pretty much said "Die you english bastards" or something to that effect.

I mean, Japan has only opened themselves to the world in the last 100 years or so, wasn't it? I guess that's not much excuse, seeing as there are still NA players who'll be racist towards the Japanese as well.

I'm not talking about the business world.

It does not matter, it is still known to be a very popular international language.

[Mirage]

I think you need to understand that Japan is still very racist (generalized statement, but oh well), and a lot of them won't talk to you in english because they think you are scum. It's the harsh reality.

I know, I was just trying to keep that stuff out of this discussion

I'm not talking about the business world.

It does not matter, it is still known to be a very popular international language.

Okay, not going to deny that, because I don't know.
I just know I know of a lot more countries that teach English as the main secondary language than Mandarin. I'm guessing Mandarin is popular in the business world because very many in the west do business with the Chinese. I don't think it's the same for Average Joe though.

[SoupForInsanity]

And i think this: "Remember, this is a game made in Japan, by a Japanese company, on a Japanese system (if you're playing PS2 version) with a story that was developed in Japanese." is pretty irrelevant. The game is released for Europeans and Americans just as much as for Japanese players. I don't think this should have anything to do with this discussion. If the game was released only in Japan, and foreigners had to import it, then this would have been a valid point.

It is relevent in respect to your other statement that you retracted about "not too much to ask for." The rest of that sentence, and not just that part ties it in. My only point with that statement was that if it were a game originally produced in English for Xbox, it might be someone's opinion that having international players speak english wouldn't be much to ask for (which I don't agree with, but that might be a valid opinion, anyways.) Yes, the game is released outside of Japan for a wide variety of players, not just one nationality of them. That's not what I was trying to say- and now that you took back your statement I guess this doesn't really need to be said, but it IS a valid point when you consider your first statement ("not too much to ask for") and what I said about it being a Japan-produced game.
Going back to that English/Xbox idea... even if it was created for people worldwide, wouldn't you feel a bit iffy if a Chinese person came and said "having them at least try to make their Chinese understandable isn't too much to ask for." What might the initial reaction be of your typical English speaking North American be? "If you don't like the english, don't play."
It is a completely different situation, I understand. I thought I would just elaborate on why I said that....

[dodhungry]

wow didnt realize this to be such a hot topic but hey thats good

anywayz

To me it also seems as if some people in this thread assume all English speakers are North American too

I think it is quite interesting that a lot of people assume if you speak English you must be from NA.

So if all this communication is an issue why dont SE make launage specific servers? In character information when creating a character just choose a launage you want and it automaticly sets you up in that launage server. (I realize its too late now but for future reference or something)

just out of curiousity, so I don't label myself a dork, do the japanese players typically roleplay or act like normal human beings

Most I have seen try to be themself...wheather its acting all racist or being a cool JP its all up to them.. I have seen both extreams. Oh as for me I try not to be racist but its rather difficult when some JP players vow to make your gaming experiance awful.. ie steal a NM you have been farming for hours or just ignoring you for no reason.

[Fuego]

There is http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...japanese+guide for incase you want to atleast try to speak to them in their own language
(it makes a difference if JP's see you as tryin' to speak to them in a way they can understand -at least i have seen for me that it does)
... i have a compilation of such guides that has pretty much all i would need to say to a JP person ... of course i can't read the characters, so i try to keep my questions or whatnot simple to maybe just a >yes please< or >no thanks<

Also there are Japanese>>>english dictionarys on the web that you can use to check what a word translation would be ... some links include :
http://www.trussel.com/f_nih.htm and
http://www.freedict.com/onldict/jap.html

I hope this helps ...

[dodhungry]

omg I never even thought about looking up a JP dictionary to help solve the communication issue

I am now linking this thread to my LS.

[Yeargdribble]

The only thing that is dangerous about the dictionaries is that sometimes you can't be aware of the type of word you are using. Certain words could potentially be deemed slight offensive or condescending when they mean the same thing as another word. Just for refrence be aware that Japanese sentence structure works roughly as SOV (Subject Object Verb) where English works as SVO. Though I'm sure if you were just picking out words, most would figure out what you were trying to say. Most JPs aren't gonna communicate in romaji so unless you are able to read kana and some kanji it will be a very one way conversations, though most JPs seem to be more proficient with the translator than NAs.



Fuego's from Texas? I'm from the Longview area in NE Texas. Where are you? (Have we had this conversation before?)

[Fuego]

No i don't think we have ... i live in austin texas

I am glad to help Dodhungry :bigbiggri

And yea Yeargdribble is right ... you have to be careful what words you use some have multipule meanings and other may mean one thing in one context and another in another context.

Some of those links have full sentances like
"Glad to have you, looking for more - Yorosiku, hokanohito mo sasotte imasu" >.<
or
I'll be the second-line healer and use weaken magic- Kaifuku nibanmeto jakutai mahou ikimasu"

[SoupForInsanity]

Aw, what a handy thing to have online! but yeah, seeing as their response would probably be in characters, if you really wanted to party with Japanese players it's not that hard to learn hiragana/katakana... if you study hard it can be done in 2 weeks...