The True Nature and Intentions of Sephiroth [Spoilers]

[chrisfffan]

Before you can discuss that, you have to clarify who you mean.

I've played FF7 many times over, and what I've gathered is that when the story begins with AVALANCHE destroying the No. 1 reactor, at that point in the story, the man Sephiroth is dead. He died when he fell into a Mako Reactor, after putting a large sword into Cloud. My understanding is that Sephiroth was a powerful man, capable of doing things that most humans could never do. But he was still a mortal man with limitations almost identical to the average human.

If that's the case, how does one explain the Sephiroth you see in the game at various times, like on the boat from Junon or in the Forgotten City, descending from above with the afforementioned large sword?

That being is actually Jenova, I think. And that's the Sephiroth that you chase after. That's the one who can fly and stuff. Humans can't hover like that. The real Sephiroth was no exception.

So..... The real human Sephiroth who died a while ago wasn't a bad guy initially. He learned where he came from, and it drove him all kindsa crazy. His crazy angry-at-the-world rampages ended with his death, in the Mako Reactor.

But the Jenova Sephiroth is totally different. That one is always babbling on about the planet and the Promised Land and such. It's not angry at the world like the real Sephy was. It is simply doing what it feels is right. That Sephiroth has nothing but good intentions in that he is setting things the way they should be.

So to call him a good "villain" seems stupid because someone with intentions like that isn't very "villainous". In fact, upon completing the game, you're left to think that perhaps Sephiroth/Jenova was right. Perhaps the world needed these things to happen like Meteor and such to make things right. According the Sephiroth, the humans were responsible for the disappearence of the Cetra, who rightfully should've been living on the planet. If that's the case, that would make Sephiroth/Jenova the good guys and Cloud and his gang would be a side plot of sorts. I think Cloud's not concerned with the justification of the humans or any of that. I think he's concerned with stopping a world threatening catastrophe at the moment, and then he'll sit down and figure out the philosophical and moral rights and wrongs after the eminent threat is gone.

I think I recall reading that Sephiroth is biologically the child of Hojo and Lucretia. I do remember something about Hojo messing with him while he was still in the womb. But how does Vincent fit into that scenario? And what about Professor Gast? I know he was this brilliant researcher, but what did he uncover? Or what was he working on? I know it relates to the Cetra, because I seem to remember him being married to Ifalna, whom I seem to remember being Aeris's real mother.

And while I'm getting all FF7 philosophical, I have a few questions that I haven't gotten figured out yet. Did Nibelheim really burn down? If so, why was in totally good shape when you arrive there in the game? And why does no one there recall the event taking place? And if it didn't burn down, then why does Cloud think it did? And why does Tifa think it did? When Cloud tells the story at the Kalm Inn, Tifa doesn't object to it and seems to sit silently as Cloud talks about Sephiroth burning down a city.

So that brings me to my next question. Was Cloud really an experiment? I know he probably got the Mako Treatment like other guys in SOLDIER, even though I think he was never really in SOLDIER. But was he really part of Jenova like Sephiroth was? Did Hojo or whoever actually inject him with Jenova to try and create a superhuman kinda guy? He did go totally crazy when he was with Zack heading to Midgar, when Zack died. I'd think that might be a side effect of the Jenova infusion thing. But that would mean that he didn't really grow up in Nibelheim.

Or maybe he grew up in Nibelheim, left to join SOLDIER, and then they did their weird stuff to him and it made him all crazy.

And why does Cloud think that he was Zack in a lot of his stories? You find out that he was a Shinra guy, but not in SOLDIER. So how did Cloud get to thinking that he was Zack in all those stories?

When Sephiroth, Zack/Cloud and two Shinra guys go to Nibelheim (during the Kalm Inn story), Tifa talks with Cloud during that visit, and even guides them through Mt. Nibel. You learn later that Cloud was there for that visit, but Tifa never knew because he had his helmet and mask on the whole time.

And the Weapons? What's their deal? Are they the planet's self defense mechanism? They come out when someone is messing with the Mako levels and just level the world, Mana Beast style?

And finally, why is it that when you use "Climhazzard" on Palmer (during the fight in Rocket Town), Cloud jams the end of the sword directly into Palmer's crotch before leaping into the air?

So there you have it. All the weird confusing stuff that came to mind. Even after several play-throughs, I still don't get a lot of that stuff.

play it again!

[Dragon Mage]

I've played FF7 many times over, and what I've gathered is that when the story begins with AVALANCHE destroying the No. 1 reactor, at that point in the story, the man Sephiroth is dead. He died when he fell into a Mako Reactor, after putting a large sword into Cloud. My understanding is that Sephiroth was a powerful man, capable of doing things that most humans could never do. But he was still a mortal man with limitations almost identical to the average human.

Sephiroth's body may (i'm not saying it did) have been destroyed, but, probably because of the alien powers he has inherited from Jenova, his mind was not destroyed. So he is not dead. And in no way is he a 'normal man'. He's just about as alien as one could get, literally. He was quite literally half human and half alien. This was achieved by the fact that Jenova's cells were injected into him before he was born. This resulted in alien DNA and human DNA mixing together. We all know that Jenova has strange powers; Sephiroth has some or most of those powers but he cannot use all of them with as much power as Jenova, because his human genes dillute his power. He would have used these very powers to prevent total death.

If that's the case, how does one explain the Sephiroth you see in the game at various times, like on the boat from Junon or in the Forgotten City, descending from above with the afforementioned large sword?

Actually, that isn't sephiroth. It's Jenova. Sephiroth can control the dead body of Jenova. Jenova is a shapshifter and has complete control over each individual cell, granting the aformentioned ability. Sephiroth, as a cross of Jenova and humans, has this same ability. In this case, he's using it to control the body of Jenova.

But the Jenova Sephiroth is totally different. That one is always babbling on about the planet and the Promised Land and such. It's not angry at the world like the real Sephy was. It is simply doing what it feels is right. That Sephiroth has nothing but good intentions in that he is setting things the way they should be.

You are confusing the set-up here. It's the same mind, but a different body. Jenova is dead--it can't think. The mind, the will, behind the actions of Jenova is all Sephiroth. When Sephiroth learned about his past, he did go crazy, like you said. But that Sephiroth and this 'Jenova sephiroth' as you call it, are the same, in the mind at least.
Sephiroth was angry at the indiginty of what has happend to his 'mother' and himself. But Jenova came here with the merciless intention to take over the world, for reasons unkown. It was killed however, by the remaining cetra, but not before most of the Cetra were already killed. Sephiroth set out to get revenge and finish was Jenova started.

Perhaps the world needed these things to happen like Meteor and such to make things right. According the Sephiroth, the humans were responsible for the disappearence of the Cetra, who rightfully should've been living on the planet. If that's the case, that would make Sephiroth/Jenova the good guys and Cloud and his gang would be a side plot of sorts. I think Cloud's not concerned with the justification of the humans or any of that. I think he's concerned with stopping a world threatening catastrophe at the moment, and then he'll sit down and figure out the philosophical and moral rights and wrongs after the eminent threat is gone.

The humans did not kill the Cetra. Humans and Cetra are one and the same--don't forget that. The Cetra, IMO, were humans that had telepathic powers, enabling them to speak with the planet. Not all had this power, thus creating your mundane 'human'. It may very well be that the Cetra who killed Jenova were actually human, as Jenova did not kill them for the posed no threat to it.

I think I recall reading that Sephiroth is biologically the child of Hojo and Lucretia. I do remember something about Hojo messing with him while he was still in the womb. But how does Vincent fit into that scenario? And what about Professor Gast? I know he was this brilliant researcher, but what did he uncover? Or what was he working on? I know it relates to the Cetra, because I seem to remember him being married to Ifalna, whom I seem to remember being Aeris's real mother.

If Jenova cells hadn't been injected into him, he would have been born a normal human being. Vincent loved Lucretia and was against the whole thing, trying to create an 'ancient' (they thought Jenova was a Cetra but it wasn't.) via human experiement. His opinions had repercussions, obviously. Professer Gast was the one who created Sephiroth.

I have a few questions that I haven't gotten figured out yet. Did Nibelheim really burn down? If so, why was in totally good shape when you arrive there in the game? And why does no one there recall the event taking place? And if it didn't burn down, then why does Cloud think it did? And why does Tifa think it did? When Cloud tells the story at the Kalm Inn, Tifa doesn't object to it and seems to sit silently as Cloud talks about Sephiroth burning down a city.

OH, the town does burn down. Here, in the game go to Niblehiem and go to Tifa's room. In the upper left-hand corner there is a desk with paper on it. Go up to the desk and press 'O' until you read the paper, it shouldn't be too hard. This will explain everything to you. Shin Ra rebuilt Nibelhiem to cover up the whole thing. Go read it the letter. Then you'll be wiser.

as Cloud really an experiment? I know he probably got the Mako Treatment like other guys in SOLDIER, even though I think he was never really in SOLDIER. But was he really part of Jenova like Sephiroth was? Did Hojo or whoever actually inject him with Jenova to try and create a superhuman kinda guy? He did go totally crazy when he was with Zack heading to Midgar, when Zack died. I'd think that might be a side effect of the Jenova infusion thing. But that would mean that he didn't really grow up in Nibelheim.

And why does Cloud think that he was Zack in a lot of his stories? You find out that he was a Shinra guy, but not in SOLDIER. So how did Cloud get to thinking that he was Zack in all those stories?

As Sephiroth has control over all Jenova cells, that also means that he has control of the cells that have been injected into countless, SOLDIER's, clones, and human experiments. Now this is where Cloud comes in. After he passed out in the reactor, Shin Ra came in and rounded up all the survivors for an experiment. This included Cloud and Zack. As Cloud was also experimented on, Jenova cells were also injected into him as well. Sephiroth was able to manipulate the cells to his advantage, mainly in the memory part of the brain. Now, I'll get back to the power of Jenova. These cells have an adverse affect on human cells, changing normal human cells into something more like Jenova cells. This grants humans some limited powers of Jenova, thus the reason for flying, walking on ceilings, and being unnaturally strong. However, the Mako-immersion process that accompanies the injection of Jenova cells on the experiments has a dramatic effect. The Mako--lifestream--is filled with the memories of the lives of people long dead, as it is the very spirit energy of hundreds of former lives, and is being recycled over and over. When immersed in Mako that spells bad news--for thousands of memories of unknown lives is forced into a person's mind, and if that person, like Cloud, wasn't particularly fond of their life, it would be easy to get lost in the flood of memories and literally lose ones own identity. This is what happend to all the previous Sephiroth clones. However, Cloud, who always wanted to have the life that Zack had, took the word 'pretend' to a whole new level, and began to piece together his own mind in a life that he wanted, rather than his own. Basically, he took the the life of his friend Zack, and remade his previous life on all the knowledge he had aka the stories. The two do not mix together very well, and I often refer to this confused Cloud as Zoud (it was better than 'Clack') to keep them straight.

Hopefully you read all of that and understand it.

And the Weapons? What's their deal? Are they the planet's self defense mechanism? They come out when someone is messing with the Mako levels and just level the world, Mana Beast style?

The Weapons were created by the planet as a means to kill Jenova, when it first came and was killing all the Cetra/humans. However, the remaining Cetra killed Jenova before the Weapons were ever activated and just as they were finished. So the planet had no use for them and just let them lie dormant, to be awakened whenever they may be needed again. In the game, the Weapons started to attack the Shin Ra because it was the Shin Ra that caused the whole mess in the first place. It could not attack/find sephiroth and so tried to eliminate those who had revived the old problem.

Now go back and read what you skipped over. I mean it.

[Ryushikaze]

Even if "clone" is a botch by sony,

It is.

there are two distinct points that are unexplained of this is true.

1. the existence of 2 sephiroths
2. the connection between cloud and sephiroth (primarily illustrated by mind and muscle control)

if you choose to specify the second as bull, I would ask why sephiroth wouldn't just control someone else, say for example, tifa, to get what he wants, or better, make cloud do what he wants by blackmail. There is some distinct connection or reason for his exclusive control of cloud.

There AREN'T two Sephiroths. There's Sephiroth, up in the northern crater, and the remnants of Jenova taking the form of Sephiroth at his command.
And no, point 2 ISN'T unexplained. Cloud has a weak will and contains Jenova cells. Just as Cloud can influence the body of Jenova, so too does he have minor influence over those infected by Jenova, especially the Sephiroth Copies, who are brimming with the stuff. So, no, Sephiroth doesn't have exclusive control of Cloud. He can also control the Black robed figures who are also Sephiroth copies.

This thread has a lot of contradictions. Since many of us haven't played in a long while, and probably have fleeting memory of the complex story, I suggest someone finds a website and provide some evidence via a link or reference.

I replayed the game only a month and a half a go. My memory is still pretty fresh.

[The Crystal]

Even if "clone" is a botch by sony, there are two distinct points that are unexplained of this is true.

1. the existence of 2 sephiroths

Sephiroth 1:

5 years ago, Sephiroth fell into the Lifestream holding the head of Jenova, going to the Northern Crater, where the Planet's energy is concentrated, and where he would begin the Reunion -- and assuring his restoration -- by focusing through Jenova's cells. This regeneration was to be carried out by way of the Reunion, as the scattered Sephiroth Clones (-->P.213) would begin migrating toward the Northern Crater.

Sephiroth 2:

Shortly after Cloud was apprehended when he broke into the Shin-Ra building to rescue Aerith, the Reunion began. Hojo expected the headless main body to be the focal point for the Reunion once it began, but in reality, it was the Northern Crater. The scattered Sephiroth Clones and the main body of Jenova within the Shin-Ra building all began to move. Jenova shattered its containment case, murdered President Shinra, escaped from the Shin-Ra building and began to wander the world. Now, Jenova's mimic abilities caused the main body to take on Sephiroth's voice and appearance, which it kept hereafter during its appearances in various places.

2. the connection between cloud and sephiroth (primarily illustrated by mind and muscle control)

Cloud have Jenova cells inside his body, and Sephiroth can controll Jenova cells to make the Reunion. Because of this, Sephiroth can manipulate Cloud and influence him.

if you choose to specify the second as bull, I would ask why sephiroth wouldn't just control someone else, say for example, tifa, to get what he wants, or better, make cloud do what he wants by blackmail. There is some distinct connection or reason for his exclusive control of cloud.

Sephiroth can only controll people that have Jenova cells inside of them. This is why he can controll Cloud and the black cape guys, but not Tifa, or Red XIII, or etc.

This thread has a lot of contradictions. Since many of us haven't played in a long while, and probably have fleeting memory of the complex story, I suggest someone finds a website and provide some evidence via a link or reference.

I suggest that you play the game again, and read the Ultimania Omega Guide created by SE, here:
http://faqs.ign.com/articles/698/698416p1.html

[Avarice-ness]

This thread has a lot of contradictions. Since many of us haven't played in a long while, and probably have fleeting memory of the complex story, I suggest someone finds a website and provide some evidence via a link or reference.

Dude, go read the 'Is Sephiroth the best bad guy' thread then come to this one and it's captain of contradictions.

Because now this thread is starting to make me believe that Jenova is actually the bad guy 'cause of the Sephiroth controlling and such.

[Dragon Mage]

Jenova is the tool, nothing more.

[Firo Volondé]

Sephiroth 1:

5 years ago, Sephiroth fell into the Lifestream holding the head of Jenova, going to the Northern Crater, where the Planet's energy is concentrated, and where he would begin the Reunion -- and assuring his restoration -- by focusing through Jenova's cells. This regeneration was to be carried out by way of the Reunion, as the scattered Sephiroth Clones (-->P.213) would begin migrating toward the Northern Crater.

Sephiroth 2:

Shortly after Cloud was apprehended when he broke into the Shin-Ra building to rescue Aerith, the Reunion began. Hojo expected the headless main body to be the focal point for the Reunion once it began, but in reality, it was the Northern Crater. The scattered Sephiroth Clones and the main body of Jenova within the Shin-Ra building all began to move. Jenova shattered its containment case, murdered President Shinra, escaped from the Shin-Ra building and began to wander the world. Now, Jenova's mimic abilities caused the main body to take on Sephiroth's voice and appearance, which it kept hereafter during its appearances in various places.

If there are two Sephiroths, there must also be two Masamunes (the one seen in the Nibelheim and the one used to kill President Shinra and Aerith). How did Jenova Sephiroth obtain the second Masamune?

why is it that when you use "Climhazzard" on Palmer (during the fight in Rocket Town), Cloud jams the end of the sword directly into Palmer's crotch before leaping into the air?

Because Cloud hates all Shinra people with a passion, and tries to deliver as much hurt as possible to them. And Climhazzard and a sword to the groin hurts a lot more than Climhazzard alone.

[Ryushikaze]

If there are two Sephiroths, there must also be two Masamunes (the one seen in the Nibelheim and the one used to kill President Shinra and Aerith). How did Jenova Sephiroth obtain the second Masamune?

Same way Sephiroth got his Masamune in AC. Made it from spirit energy.

[~Storm Ninja~]

Now we're getting somewhere.

[OneWingedAngelSephiroth91]

Before you can discuss that, you have to clarify who you mean.

I've played FF7 many times over, and what I've gathered is that when the story begins with AVALANCHE destroying the No. 1 reactor, at that point in the story, the man Sephiroth is dead. He died when he fell into a Mako Reactor, after putting a large sword into Cloud. My understanding is that Sephiroth was a powerful man, capable of doing things that most humans could never do. But he was still a mortal man with limitations almost identical to the average human.

If that's the case, how does one explain the Sephiroth you see in the game at various times, like on the boat from Junon or in the Forgotten City, descending from above with the afforementioned large sword?

That being is actually Jenova, I think. And that's the Sephiroth that you chase after. That's the one who can fly and stuff. Humans can't hover like that. The real Sephiroth was no exception.

So..... The real human Sephiroth who died a while ago wasn't a bad guy initially. He learned where he came from, and it drove him all kindsa crazy. His crazy angry-at-the-world rampages ended with his death, in the Mako Reactor.

But the Jenova Sephiroth is totally different. That one is always babbling on about the planet and the Promised Land and such. It's not angry at the world like the real Sephy was. It is simply doing what it feels is right. That Sephiroth has nothing but good intentions in that he is setting things the way they should be.

So to call him a good "villain" seems stupid because someone with intentions like that isn't very "villainous". In fact, upon completing the game, you're left to think that perhaps Sephiroth/Jenova was right. Perhaps the world needed these things to happen like Meteor and such to make things right. According the Sephiroth, the humans were responsible for the disappearence of the Cetra, who rightfully should've been living on the planet. If that's the case, that would make Sephiroth/Jenova the good guys and Cloud and his gang would be a side plot of sorts. I think Cloud's not concerned with the justification of the humans or any of that. I think he's concerned with stopping a world threatening catastrophe at the moment, and then he'll sit down and figure out the philosophical and moral rights and wrongs after the eminent threat is gone.

I think I recall reading that Sephiroth is biologically the child of Hojo and Lucretia. I do remember something about Hojo messing with him while he was still in the womb. But how does Vincent fit into that scenario? And what about Professor Gast? I know he was this brilliant researcher, but what did he uncover? Or what was he working on? I know it relates to the Cetra, because I seem to remember him being married to Ifalna, whom I seem to remember being Aeris's real mother.

And while I'm getting all FF7 philosophical, I have a few questions that I haven't gotten figured out yet. Did Nibelheim really burn down? If so, why was in totally good shape when you arrive there in the game? And why does no one there recall the event taking place? And if it didn't burn down, then why does Cloud think it did? And why does Tifa think it did? When Cloud tells the story at the Kalm Inn, Tifa doesn't object to it and seems to sit silently as Cloud talks about Sephiroth burning down a city.

So that brings me to my next question. Was Cloud really an experiment? I know he probably got the Mako Treatment like other guys in SOLDIER, even though I think he was never really in SOLDIER. But was he really part of Jenova like Sephiroth was? Did Hojo or whoever actually inject him with Jenova to try and create a superhuman kinda guy? He did go totally crazy when he was with Zack heading to Midgar, when Zack died. I'd think that might be a side effect of the Jenova infusion thing. But that would mean that he didn't really grow up in Nibelheim.

Or maybe he grew up in Nibelheim, left to join SOLDIER, and then they did their weird stuff to him and it made him all crazy.

And why does Cloud think that he was Zack in a lot of his stories? You find out that he was a Shinra guy, but not in SOLDIER. So how did Cloud get to thinking that he was Zack in all those stories?

When Sephiroth, Zack/Cloud and two Shinra guys go to Nibelheim (during the Kalm Inn story), Tifa talks with Cloud during that visit, and even guides them through Mt. Nibel. You learn later that Cloud was there for that visit, but Tifa never knew because he had his helmet and mask on the whole time.

And the Weapons? What's their deal? Are they the planet's self defense mechanism? They come out when someone is messing with the Mako levels and just level the world, Mana Beast style?

And finally, why is it that when you use "Climhazzard" on Palmer (during the fight in Rocket Town), Cloud jams the end of the sword directly into Palmer's crotch before leaping into the air?

So there you have it. All the weird confusing stuff that came to mind. Even after several play-throughs, I still don't get a lot of that stuff.

If you reads what the characters actually say, then you would realize that Sephiroth was not, i repeat WAS NOT, completly human.. Jenova has many powers including transforming and flying. So, when Sephiroth was injected with Jenova Cells before birth, he became part of Jenova.

Sephiroth never died after Cloud dropped on him, his will over Jenova wouldn't allow it causing rapid healing but not complete to make his 'One Winged Angel' form.

The Weapons were a World-self defense monster that was created when Jenova first arrived on the planet.

Sephiroth had complete control over Jenova clone of Sephiroth when u and it were in the ship, temple, City of Ancients, ect.

Cloud thought he was in actually Zacks place (I'd like to know where they say that the guy's name was Zack...people presume too much) because 'the guy' told him the story on their way to Midgar and with the pain plus the Jenova cells combined, caused him to probably to hear differently.

Nibelhiem was atually burnt to a crisp and if you went to Tifa's old room then you'll find a letter which says that only 8 people retuned there and didn't know what happen that it burnt down...

and i think that covers your questions...if u need answers, just ask...

[Christmas]

Weapons are there to give you overpowered items so that you can bring ownage.

[OneWingedAngelSephiroth91]

[quote=Firo Volondé;2057447]

If there are two Sephiroths, there must also be two Masamunes (the one seen in the Nibelheim and the one used to kill President Shinra and Aerith). How did Jenova Sephiroth obtain the second Masamune?

well the Clone Sephiroth who killed Aerith actually took his sord out from her back....oh man, just thinking of that just makes my back shake

[Bolivar]

I believe, although some claim the ultimania guide states otherwise, that Jenova was controlling Sephiroth, but not in an obvious sense. Essentially she was the force of chaos, or darkness, that, from the background, compels the story's antagonists in different directions, but all towards the same ends, which would result in the destruction of Gaia, or most life on it.

Sephiroth's plan was to move his "clones" (keep in mind this is not the conventional, Western definition of clones) like chess pieces in order to fulfill his goal. From his state of uconsciousness in the Northern Crater, he was able to use "#1" and Cloud (both arriving at midgar at about the same time) primarily to combat Shinra, find the black materia, and deliver it to sephiroth for summoning. Thus, a meteor would threaten Gaia, and the Planets lifestream, and all its energy + knowledge would gather at which point Sephiroth would be the center.

It should be noted that this plan is exactly what happens, even after sephiroth
is defeated, although it takes place at Midgar, not the northern crater.

At this point, sephiroth would basically become one with the planet, at which time this being would be a conscious planetary entity, and we can assume the same 1,000 year storyline would recommence, as it searches for a new planet's lifeforce to consume.

These are obviously Jenova's intentions, and as an actual fetus merged w/ Jenova cells, Sephiroth is, for all purposes, IS Jenova, her will, her child. This is parallel to FFIV's story of zemus controlling Golbez + Kain, or of the sorceress's intentions passing on in VIII

[Ryushikaze]

Except not. The Ultimania guide DOES state otherwise, so no matter how strong your belief, it cannot go against the evidence.

Edit: Correcting a painful typo.

[~Storm Ninja~]

umm... maybe we should call it a day before we get killed by sephiroth mega-fangirls.