The morality of XII is flawed - Spoilers - my rant

[Vivisteiner]

^But its possible that that subtle touch was added to signify that the resistance isnt necessarily good. If Matsuno wanted to portray the resistance as heroic, why on earth would they call its flagship Garland? - A villain in FF1 and FFIX.


+Shiva, Ifrit are usually summoned by the main party - which is good.

[Renmiri]

Those are good points. Ondorre himself is a bit of an ambiguous figure.

There were a couple of noble heroic figures in the game but with the exception of Basch and Balthier they died because of it. (SPOILER)Reddas, Drace, Gabranth, Anastasis, Zargabaath

PS: I can't believe I'm finding a reason to like Baltier!

[Bolivar]

They are just ships! Ships are to be controlled. The one who controls decides are the they bad or good. No matter what their names are they are just ships. Summons too can be used to good or bad. They are just loyal servants of their masters.
Garland isn't a summon, but it's just a name for a ship this time.

EDIT: SqEn is getting out of ideas since so much names from previous games.

You are absolutely correct, that's one way to interpret this - that there is no interpretation and that the name's are meaningless.

Ours is another interpretation, and we didn't say we're 100% correct, merely that it may allude to something. So no need to get cynical.

But I did say that, if anything, FFXII is game with ALOT of effort put into its subtleties. Do you agree or disagree with this statement?

[Vivisteiner]

^I agree. Almost the complete opposite of X.

Those are good points. Ondorre himself is a bit of an ambiguous figure.

There were a couple of noble heroic figures in the game but with the exception of Basch and Balthier they died because of it. (SPOILER)Reddas, Drace, Gabranth, Anastasis, Zargabaath

PS: I can't believe I'm finding a reason to like Baltier!

(SPOILER)Zargabaath doesnt die!

I find it ironic that the Judges - out of all the characters that you meet, are some of the most noble. However, we dont really know enough about them. Balthier himself said that they were 'more like executioners'.

[Wolf Kanno]

Well here is my :twocents: ...

Now Summoner of Leviathan and No. 78 both bring up points that I agree upon. Most of the parties involved can't exactly help due to either lack of power or political reasons.

The only people who speak about the attack are a few wondering NPC's in certain campsite and a few people in Rabanastre and I think Bhujerba though the memory is a little foggy about Bhujerba... The traverlers decide to find new sanctuary cause they were headed to Mt. Burimasce to seek safe haven from the conflict. The city dwellers are scared to death that the Holy Temple was attacked and conclude that no place is safe from Archadia.

This just proves how Ivalice is placed in a time period similiar to the age of empires in Europe and Eurasia when "might is right" is the only law. No one can help them cause they fear the empire will strike them down or they are seriously just indifferent to the whole situation (just like Spira was indifferent to Seymour killing the Ronso in FFX ).

From a historical perspective, I feel the situation played out rather accurately. Don't forget the Romans were known to punish the death of a soldier in foreign regions by gathering all the local villages and making them watch as the Romans kill every man, woman, child, and animal in the town where the incedent took place or was close to the incedent in question. Rome at the time was on a cultural level almost on par with todays just like Ivalice shares many similarities with our time as they do the ancient kingdoms of old. Since this team is known for their love of history it doesn't come as a surprise that they would use a more historical look of how the situation is played out rather than a modern day one. Especially since a modern day solution wouldn't make sense considering how the kingdoms were set up.

You have to remember that public out cry means nothing in a government system where the powers that be can call on the military to quell the rebellion. It's not like Vayne or Al-Cid can be elected out of office. The best the people can hope for is that the rulers make their lives easier. It's just how things were back then. Though I agree the actions taken were pretty heartless, I also accept that this is just portraying a truth to our own bloody history. Kingdoms and empires were created on the corpses and bones of people.

But alas, you seriously down play the whole Rejt and Fafnir story arc. Before the imperial attack, the refugees are coming to the Holy Temple to seek shelter from the conflicts between rebel forces and imperial troops. The Temple is swarmed and mentions how they are having difficulty trying to keep up with the surge of pilgrims. The attack happens and the place is resorted to a burnt out shell where children cry for their momies to wake up and the injured scream in anguish while the survivng temple priest mourn the passing of their spiritual leader. The peaceful Holy music is replaced with a somber and melancholy musical piece.

Rejt the Viera, spends both periods contemplating the futility of the world of the humes while arguing with a caring priest. Eventually, Fafnir breaks out of his bondage and begins to ravage the mountain. The priest, though inadequately prepared, set off to stop the creature and protect the few survivors (who by this time are basically talking about how they are waiting to die). Of course the priest are never heard from again but their Mark post brings your party back. Rejt explains the situation, still trying to figure out why the priest would bother to protect people who gave up on themselves.

The party proceeds to battle the obnoxious Fafnir and eventually succeed. Rejt in this time finally figures out the meaning behind placing something before yourself and why it's important. She decides to help the temple due to her knowledge of healing medicine. The music changes to a soft but more hopeful piece of music and the general atmosphere has changed. Rejt has inspired the refugees to help themselves and many decide to stay and rebuild the place that took them in. Even the monks become inspired from Rejt's example and their mourning ceases as they begin to help rebuild the temple.

If Mt. Burimasce is mentioned in RW, I wouldn't be surprised if Rejt has been chosen to become the new Grand Kiltias

I feel Burimasce acts as a parallel to the belief that one must learn to stand on your own feet. The scenario presented to the player after the Fafnir fight alludes to the player that it's going to be alright. I'm sorry the game doesn't give some feedback on how the world is shaping up for you but I feel the game actually gives enough hints to tell you how everything worked out. I know you hate this ascpect of XII's storytelling but you'll have to make due with what you got dear

[WritinginaRedState]

With all due respect to those who did enjoy XII's brand of storytelling, I do feel that they used the "hints" thing too much. While all the games do hint at particular outcomes to scenarios, I feel that XII does it too often and on scenarios that should definately have been fleshed out. It seemed to me they left things purposefully vague to make up for rather weak characterization. They can't explain why people act the way they do (I believe most everyone has a reason for doing something regardless of the situation), so they leave it up to the player to make those decisions. I guess it's a personal taste.

I play RPGs like I read books. I want to know why the characters think and act the way they do. When an action does not match past actions I want a reason, whether it be a past experience or something else.

To me, it would be like a hateful person sitting down next to me and proceeding to initiate a pleasant conversation. Why are they speaking to me nicely and not everyone else? Are they more friendly with people my sex because of bad experiences with a parent? Do they just have mood swings? I don't know. When someone who is hateful starts acting extremely pleasant there is a reason.

All Final Fantasies use these "hints", but, to my knowledge, none of them use that system when dealing with important character aspects. We know why Tidus hated his father, we knew why Vivi acted so odd and quirky. I think it comes down to one thing: whether you need to feel "connected" to your characters. I need to in order to enjoy a game. Why should I want these people to succeed when I know so little about them?

[Renmiri]

Why should I want these people to succeed when I know so little about them?

QFT!

And also, why should I help them if they don't help anybody ? Ashe got al lthe power she was seeking, so did Larsa. Why didn't they help Mt. Bur Omisace, or later Reddas town ?

I hate that aspect of the game: they went to great lengths to show the cruelty that happened in Bur-Omisace but then are content on a passing little scene on a hunt to show it's end ?

PS: Yeah Zargabaath didn't need to sacrifice himself because someone else did (SPOILER)Balthier. I guess he is one of the noble figures.

[Vivisteiner]

And also, why should I help them if they don't help anybody ? Ashe got al lthe power she was seeking, so did Larsa. Why didn't they help Mt. Bur Omisace, or later Reddas town ?

I would generally complete the game in order to see the plot unfold. The characters you control dont have to be noble IMO for you to have motivation to 'help them.'

Ashe is certainly a strange and interesting character. Sometimes she seems like she wants to help her people, sometimes she seems selfish. What I seem to have gathered is that Ashe wants the best for the people of her own Kingdom, and she cares little for people from other kingdoms. Dalmasca definitely comes first to her, and she is probably extremely right wing in believing that people can help themselves. Wolf Kanno made the good point that in ancient times, moral values on subjects such a these were very different.

I hate that aspect of the game: they went to great lengths to show the cruelty that happened in Bur-Omisace but then are content on a passing little scene on a hunt to show it's end ?

Perhaps the game fails to illustrate any helping because it occured at a later date, a while after Dalmasca was restored. But I still agree that a scene should have been shown, unless if it was ommited for a reason. (As Ive discussed before)



My greatest disappointment with FFXII was that the humanitarian aspects were played down too much. It weakens the plot, although I would still contest that the plot is intriguing. A more humanitarian side can be viewed upon repeat though. Statements which made little sense first time through, become understandable and help you to empathise. I noticed this especially for Balthier. But there should have definitely been more cutscenes though.

[Renmiri]

And also, why should I help them if they don't help anybody ? Ashe got al lthe power she was seeking, so did Larsa. Why didn't they help Mt. Bur Omisace, or later Reddas town ?

I would generally complete the game in order to see the plot unfold.

I did. There is not even a cutscene with Bur Omisace or Balfonheim. Like it wasn't there at all. but they made a point to show Ashe got back her ring

[Vivisteiner]

^Maybe they'll deal with it in Renevant Wings?

[Renmiri]

^Maybe they'll deal with it in Renevant Wings?

I hope!

But seriously, like WK says, the wounded probably ended up taking care of themselves or dying, we can assume what we like and move on. Not like they are real wounded people....

I just object to the way the story was told: 2 hours spent on showing their misery and 1 minute showing them (maybe) getting some help from a Viera. Same on Reddas town, though less dramatic, since we don't see Reddas enemies taking over.

[Bolivar]

i think ashe doesn't give a damn about anybody, and that she's motivated purely be revenge, from the loss of her father, her husband, and her birthright. Don't get me wrong, i think she becomes a good queen at the end but only after she learned to let go of her hatred. Or not, maybe she'll try to be the HBIC and start a whole new war. I really want to get Revenant Wings.

[Swan]

I spose you do have some points. It was unrealistic I suppose, as the main characters seem to be compassionate (Basch and Ashe moreso) and yet they did very little to fix these issues. But if you think it's actually upsetting that they don't do these things, then I think you take the plot a little too seriously.

[PeneloRatsbane]

I like how when it comes down to it right at the end, (SPOILER)it is the two shady, runaway, outcast pirates that are the true hero's who save Rabanastre.
Not the Future Queen or the brave knight, or even the two inhabitents of Rabanastre.
I know that they're the mechanics so it makes sence, but they bravely risk their lives to save the day.

[Renmiri]

I spose you do have some points. It was unrealistic I suppose, as the main characters seem to be compassionate (Basch and Ashe moreso) and yet they did very little to fix these issues. But if you think it's actually upsetting that they don't do these things, then I think you take the plot a little too seriously.

Oh no, I liked the game. And it is after all just fantasy. I'm just pointing out the stuff I didn't like about it.

I like how when it comes down to it right at the end, (SPOILER)it is the two shady, runaway, outcast pirates that are the true hero's who save Rabanastre.
Not the Future Queen or the brave knight, or even the two inhabitents of Rabanastre.
I know that they're the mechanics so it makes sense, but they bravely risk their lives to save the day.

QFT!

It is a very interesting twist. It seems the "common folk" are much nobler than the royals on XII. They should rebel and get rid of monarchy