Kefka is so evil he even killed the GRASS!

[Goldenboko]

Zemus was a racist, that is the only thing relevent in his actions.

In a way Zemus' past was part of what made him him. If not for the past events of KluYa and FuSoYa to stop him from his first attempt at destroying humans, Zemus never would of gotten that initial hate that built up over years that eventually transformed him into Zeromus.

Are you implying that he they should've just let him kill all the humans? xD

[The Crystal]

Ah, and Wolf Kanno, you asked for an explanation as to why she couldn't just take over Edea's body and wipe out SeeD before it became a reality. Well, the Junction Machine Ellone has it's limits. Ulti could return to the past until a single point, but not beyond it. This is why she wanted Ellone. To travel back more, and initiate TC.

She would have wiped SeeD before it even started, if she had the chance. Proof of that, is that the first thing she did after taking over Galbadia, was shoot missiles against the Gardens.
And that's something I like about her. Instead of being an arrogant ass, underestimating the heroes, and playing around, she goes directly for the kill.

[Wolf Kanno]

Do you want me to show you the FMV of CC where (SPOILER)Cloud toss Sephiroth in the Mako?
And do you think I need to use spoiler tags to talk about a scene in CC, that is exactly the same scene of the original FFVII, but that is considered "a new scene/retcon" now, only because of LO's previous retcon?

About Ultimecia, I agree her past wasn't explained in details. But Zemus' past wasn't too. Kefka's past wasn't either. And etc. The point is: Ultimecia have a good(and sympathetic) motive for her actions. And that's enough. Details aren't allways important.
But fuc*k that. Lets just agree to disagree and be over with it.

Depends, if the scene is just a FMV version of exactly what happened in the original then I don't need to see it. If its different then I might or I'll just end up swiping my friends PSP and copy of the game when he acquires it. I actually want to play CC oddly enough...

NeoCracker beat me to my response on the other point. Ulti had more reasons to delve into her pasts if she was being portrayed as the sympathetic villain. My main point is that I'm trying to figure out where "hating SeeD and fearing death by their hands" equals "Time Compression to become a god" as I've stated before there seems to be a lack of explanantion as to why she needed to initiate such a plan. All we have is fan speculation of which you and I have both made good guesses to define her logic but there is little evidence in-game to say either of us are right I'm afraid (waiting for Bolivar to chime in anytime now...)

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree as you said but at least we both agree its a good game right?

Ah, and Wolf Kanno, you asked for an explanation as to why she couldn't just take over Edea's body and wipe out SeeD before it became a reality. Well, the Junction Machine Ellone has it's limits. Ulti could return to the past until a single point, but not beyond it. This is why she wanted Ellone. To travel back more, and initiate TC.

She would have wiped SeeD before it even started, if she had the chance. Proof of that, is that the first thing she did after taking over Galbadia, was shoot missiles against the Gardens.
And that's something I like about her. Instead of being an arrogant ass, underestimating the heroes, and playing around, she goes directly for the kill.

You're right, I forgot they mentioned that part. My bad. Well she did try to wipe out SeeD in the past but as I stated before, where does Time Compression fit in?

[Bahamut2000X]

Zemus was a racist, that is the only thing relevent in his actions.

In a way Zemus' past was part of what made him him. If not for the past events of KluYa and FuSoYa to stop him from his first attempt at destroying humans, Zemus never would of gotten that initial hate that built up over years that eventually transformed him into Zeromus.

Are you implying that he they should've just let him kill all the humans? xD

No I was just trying to point out that he wasn't a villain whose past had no bearing to their being evil. It did, just not as much as maybe others.

[Forsaken Lover]

I miss all the good topics on here.

Ah well, better late than never.

I quote an old post of mine about Kuja's character.

A cliche villain would be power-hungry for the sake of power hungry. He is EVILLLLLL and he does BAD THINGS because...he’s an evil, bad person.

That’s not Kuja.

Kuja: Oh, how I've longed for this day.
Kuja: ...the day I might finally cast away this mask to reveal my true self.

Kuja: The final act will take us away from Gaia, and I will kill my nemesis...with my own hand!

Kuja wants to kill Garland...because he’s just a cliche and evil?

Kuja: I must destroy him before Terra's plan is activated, or my soul will no longer be my own!

It was either destroy Garland or Terra’s Resurrection would carry out and the Genomes, vessels for the true people of Terra, would be done for and Kuja’s soul would go to whoever it originated from.

Garland: I constructed the Genomes to be vessels for the souls of the people of Terra when they awaken.

What does Garland say of Kuja’s motivation?

Garland: He is only hiding it. He denies his own identity.
Garland: He rejects the meaning of his existence and tries to assert his own individuality.

Kuja doesn’t want to be seen as a someone else’s creation: as merely a vessel for someone else. He wants to establish his own power, his own will.

Kuja: The weak lose their freedom to the strong.
Kuja: Such is the way of the strong. And it is the providence of nature that only the strong survive.
Kuja: That is why I needed strength

Bu Kuja’s own assertions, it is the “providence of nature” that the weaker beings are subjugated by the stronger. He flatly acknowledges Garland is stronger than him and so he seeks to overcome this. As Hilda said
“ He was a hopeless narcissist”

For someone with such a strong will and ego as well as a philosophy that the strong should be the rulers of all below them, Kuja’s longing for power was a way to justify himself and defy his “destiny.”

Afterall, look at what it is that drives Kuja over the edge.

Garland: There's a limit on your life... You'll be dead soon...
Even as I die, you'll have died without ever leaving your mark on the world...

Kuja will never have the chance he longed for: to reject his existence, the life and destiny of a disposable tool.

Now witness fate’s ultimately cruel irony on the twisted and warped psyche of Kuja’s mind:

Kuja: What comedy! Zidane, isn't it hilarious!? I'll die just like the black mages I so despise!
Kuja: I single-handedly brought chaos unto Gaia, but in the end, I'm nothing but a worthless doll!

Despite his lifelong ambition to attain power to signify his individuality, he would die before he eve rhad the chance to build his “eternal kingdom.” Thus, in the desperate last acts of a man trying to elude the claws of death

Kuja): ...I won't let it happen.
Kuja: I won't... I won't let this world exist without me!

Kuja: Why should the world exist without me? That wouldn't be fair. IfI die, we all die!

In the mind of a half-crazed egotist of the highest order, the destruction of all lesser beings is the only right thing. He, Kuja, is the best and most powerful of all of them. By what right should they live while he perishes?

Kuja’s character and ambitions are merely something many fictional characters wrestle with: Fate. Destiny. The idea that free will is an illusion. Kuja tried to prove himself as an individual by attaining power. He ultimately failed because he could nto escape his destiny.

His final acts, even in the throws of death and after killing Zidane and his crew is to save them all.

Perhaps it is in that act alone Kuja finally escaped his destiny: the destroyer of Gaia, the taker of lives for a master and being a slave. He was a slave all his life...to Garland and his own greed. But in the end, he saved lives.

Kuja is anything but a cliche.

I don't see Kuja as evil. Misguided by circumstance definitley but not evil.

[Wolf Kanno]

You know, discussing Kuja and Ultemacia and even Xande, I have to wonder... From a cultural standpoint who do you think everyone feels is more evil. What I mean by this is the fact that Ulti, Xande, and Kuja have very personal individualistic motives and from a western standpoint (which stresses individualism) the three of them are sympathetic villains but from an eastern perspective (which used to stress utilitarinism[sp?] ) these three might be considered the most evil cause they were willing to sacrifice all life to achieve personal indeed almost selfish goals.

I'm curious to know who Japan considers to be the most evil in a philisophical and moral way...

[Roogle]

Well, what was the goal of Ultimecia? She wanted to achieve Time Compression. What does she have to gain from that? I never understood Ultimecia as a villain, personally.

I voted for Kefka because I think of his insanity as a kind of evil.

[The Crystal]

Well, what was the goal of Ultimecia? She wanted to achieve Time Compression. What does she have to gain from that?

I never understood Ultimecia as a villain, personally.

Read my conversation with Wolf Kanno and you will understand.

[Forsaken Lover]

Well, what was the goal of Ultimecia? She wanted to achieve Time Compression. What does she have to gain from that?

I never understood Ultimecia as a villain, personally. I voted for Kefka because I think of his insanity as a kind of evil.

She was scared of SeeDs killing her.
So she took action to try and keep this from happening and through her action to try and stop SeeDs from killing her, she ended up giving them the chance to kill her.

It's a cruel irony that happens a lot of villains driven by fear.

[Roogle]

She was scared of SeeDs killing her.
So she took action to try and keep this from happening and through her action to try and stop SeeDs from killing her, she ended up giving them the chance to kill her.

It's a cruel irony that happens a lot of villains driven by fear.

Oh, right. I do not think she is entirely evil in the wicked sense like Kefka was because she must have been dealing with intense paranoia and it clouded her judgment. I guess that it is a very selfish thing to do, but I cannot see either culture considering her more evil than the mass murders or warmonger villains of the other Final Fantasy games; in addition, she was not entirely unprovoked because there was an organization dedicated to killing out her kind, so I find it hard to diagnose her as entirely evil. I wish that the game would have gone into more depth about her character because it would have been nice to see the playable characters debating about whether what the goals and motives of the SeeD organization as a whole.

[Serapy]

Well, what was the goal of Ultimecia? She wanted to achieve Time Compression. What does she have to gain from that?

I never understood Ultimecia as a villain, personally. I voted for Kefka because I think of his insanity as a kind of evil.

She was scared of SeeDs killing her.
So she took action to try and keep this from happening and through her action to try and stop SeeDs from killing her, she ended up giving them the chance to kill her.

It's a cruel irony that happens a lot of villains driven by fear.

She doesn't need a reason to be scared of SeeDs because she invented the SeeD system in a certain way of accomplishing her goal = lurking SeeDs to meet her.
Her goal was just to pass powers onto someone else.
The nature of "I don't want to disappear yet" thing in the game is a mistranslation.

[The Crystal]

She doesn't need a reason to be scared of SeeDs because she invented the SeeD system in a certain way of accomplishing her goal = lurking SeeDs to meet her.
Her goal was just to pass powers onto someone else.
The nature of "I don't want to disappear yet" thing in the game is a mistranslation.

It wasn't her intention to create SeeD, it was an accident.
And the reason she passed her powers to Edea, is because she was dying and a sorceress cannot die in peace without passing her powers to another female.

[NeoCracker]

Every been happy a thread was inactive, only to have it return again when you had forgotten about its existence?

[Goldenboko]

Every been happy a thread was inactive, only to have it return again when you had forgotten about its existence?

Welcome, to my life.

[Jessweeee♪]

The whole Time Compression thing in FFVIII confuses me >.<

Lemme see if I have it right:
FFVIII Spoilers
1. SeeDs try and kill Ulti.
2. Ulty tries to achieve TC to destroy all of the SeeD
3. Before time is fully compressed, she is defeated by SeeD.
4. Squall gets lost for a little bit and ends up at the orphanage, where he sees Ulty pass her powers to Edea and die.
5. Squall gives Edea the idea of SeeD, giving Ulty an enemy.
6. SeeDs try and kill Ulty.


???