FFIX is the greatest thing in the history of the universe! Its cunning beautiful mix of blending the three arts of visuals, storytelling, and music cannot be touched by any game!
FFIX is the greatest thing in the history of the universe! Its cunning beautiful mix of blending the three arts of visuals, storytelling, and music cannot be touched by any game!
FF6 - Seifer? Really? Have you actually played any of these games? Do you even know how to spell sorceress? Does your tiny average sized brain even understand how even mispelling a name disrespects the whole of Square-Enix?
I JOKE LULZ FF VIII BIATCHES
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The above sentence is false.
You would have to study college literature to appreciate 10's characters. Naturally in the state of public schools in this country you guys probably haven't picked up a book in quite some time. 10 contained all the classic types of characters. And it's my favorite because, they made an extra effort not to leave any characters in the dust so to speak. (Did this too with the battle system preventing having 4-6 lv 15 characters and 3 lv 60 characters) 7 was not the only game to suffer from this problem. Many FF's have had this problem. You have major stories for a few characters and the rest just get a few memorable lines or a flashback sequence. X tried really hard to include them all just as equally. Tidus was the usual protagonist, hard life, dad left me, now I got to save the world even if it means the end of my existence.blah blah blah. He goes through numerous growth of having to accept the harsh realities of the world and death. A big change for him considering he got separated from his life of paradise and fame, he was a professional athlete. How long did he piss and moan about going back until he finally accepted that he won't be? He learned to accept his fate. Yuna, was an interesting one. Yuna is the character that is too nice to people. She can't turn down someone in need. Her change continues all the way through 10-2. Her struggle is, is it ok for me to do something for myself. For me to look after me and not someone else. She has to learn to go after he own dreams and quit trying to live to others expectations. Wakka. Wakk was huge guys. Here's a character that has been brainwashed by a religion that is controlling his way of life. When he learns it is false, he doesn't know what to do. He realizes all his life the things he's known have been a lie. What is he to do now? Lu is the older sister. Kind of the know it all. Giving attitude to those that ask dumb questions. And always correcting people when no one asks to be corrected. Most novels contain a know it all. Auron, is a character that carries a certain stature to him. We can easily tell, that he knows more than he lets on, and that something exists in his past that has caused him to put up a wall to hide his identity/personality and feelings. Which turn out to be regret from letting Braska and Jetch go through with the final summoning plan. Along with this he wonders how long he needs/should remain in this world. Rikku, is a young girl fighting for the acceptance of her people that have been labeled outsiders. She's out to get respect for he people as well as attempting to changed the closed minds of the people. Lastly the Ronso, is out for honor and discipline. He left his tribe to fulfill a request, and continues to honor that request. This archetype is totally selfless and as we saw is prepared to die as he was prepared to fight seymour alone. It's all about bringing honor to himself and his tribe. All because he bade a promise and is determined to keep it. If only people could do that... So there you have it. Classic Archetypes that were well written in a final fantasy. These are serious types of characters that one could write a thesis on. These are the types of characters that Shakespeare writes in his works. The very same. The Hero, the Selfless, the diluted and brainwashed, the know it all, the guy that hides his pain, the outcast, and the quiet shawman (lol) that's all about honor. No other FF went into as great detail as X did of portraying archetypes. All were equally important and hardly left out at any one time. And each one took the whole game to portray instead of just a few scenes. (I wanted to bitch slap wakka for constantly defending his religion when it was becoming clear in the story that they were evil, but that was part of his change,)Originally Posted by Wuggly Blight
Yeah that is ironic as X has NO character development at all, or pacing, the only attempt was a very bad stitch in scene with Lulu and Waka mid game.
But you can't blame it on VII for not having this stuff, it came out before it was possible to portray these types of characterization. (Facial expressions is a big one.) I think 7 meant to do more than it did but tech limitations prevented it from doing so. And who knows, maybe the characters did originally have more than a flashback sequence each, but they could have to cut it for time constraints. (I believe RedXIII had more, as he was a bitchin character, but all he got was a lame scene about how his dad got turned to stone by arrows?, Surly there was something better than that for a cool character like him, I have to believe there was anyway.)
I do like final fantasy 7 boliver. But I'm still gonna make fun of it. Wait till I rip on X. And that's my Fav. Every FF has chapped my ass at some point in the game. Example: Who the hell was responsible for that laughing scene in X with Tidus and Yun?. They need a swift kick to the balls for that one.
Kefka wait.
Wait he says, Do I look like a Waiter?
OMG I just had to grit my teeth through that part of the game the other day. X is such a great story, but that is by far the worst part of all of the FF's I've played.
Personally, I don't feel like you can really compare across consoles. I'd say to choose your favourite from 1-6, then 7-12 since they really are in two entirely different leagues. I voted for X & X-2 because I loved the story. FFX didn't have your typical happy ending, and I actually cried at the end of it. Then FFX-2 came out, and both Yuna and especially Rikku aged very nicely from X to X-2, and the 3 separate possible endings catered to how much you were into the game, although needing to get the 100% was a pain even with the strategy guide. The perfect ending was just that though, perfect. However, with the old consoles, I'd never even hesitate to put my vote behind FFI. The desire to relive the adventure always returns every now and then.
I would agree with Toad's assertion that X actually characterizes its characters quite well, though this is largely because of the PS2's capabilities (which he/she also pointed out). The characterization is more subtle in X...it can't be measured in flashback scenes, which are, in my opinion, hamfisted attempts to shove character development in. X's characterization emerges as a result of facial expressions, dialogue bits,etc.
I do have to say though, that I believe that ALL Final Fantasy games use archetypes for characters (duh), though not all of them implement them very well. I think though, what Toad is saying, is that X is special because it actually develops those archetypes in all of the characters. (Sorry if I'm being stupid for repeating what might be obvious in that post, it's late). Most FFs seem to only really develop the hero significantly, while relying on the archetypes of the other characters to stand in for themselves.
Oh Toad, I'd be interested in hearing which literary figures you actually think X's characters compare to? (...that sentence sounds gross...) I can assure you that I'm very well read (English major...who has some bad habits with grammar), though I seem to be drawing blanks on specific characters at the moment. Tired, perhaps.Tidus is obvious, as he's somewhat of a tragic hero, though without a tragic flaw, I guess. Hating his dad puts him in line with Oedipus, though...no...just no.
I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VII: DoC, VII: CC, VIII, X, X-2, XII, KH, KH:CoM, Re:CoM, KHII, CT
VI
6
IIIII
Six
9 + flip vertically
(SPOILER)thats size 6 font btw!!!
Kefka's coming, look intimidating!
Have a nice day!!
Must... control... anger...
I can't allow the notion that X was well written. It's really terrible actually and feels (to me at least) like a jr. high story rewritten by a college student. Yes it uses archtypes but most fail to move past their stock personas and become something new or original (something most of the other FF succeed in though perhaps not in grand ways). This in turn makes the plot horribly predictable and the characters flat and two dimensional.
My real problem with X is that its completely processed. Taking concepts and ideas used before but not allowing for any kind of growth or originality. The plot is straight out of Japanese mythology and happens to be a rather overtold story at that... Its cast are text book examples of literary archtypes whose only level of originality is shallow back stories and in the form of visual design. As far as personality goes, the writer chooses to never allow the characters to stray from their archtype and instead creates a bland and predictable cast.
The whole thing feels processed and formulatic, lacking anything orignal outside of world design. Perhaps this is why so much focus of X is on the world of Spira as its the only truly original concept in the game. X never surprised me and it never moved me emotionally like previous FFs had. It was just shallow and mediocre. I'm currently playing through it a third time but I doubt I'll finish it cause I seriously don't care. Its in fact, one of the few RPGs that I dislike more and more each time I play it. Personally, I don't care if people like the game. We al have different tastes, I just wanted to add my :twocents: on the topic of X being well written or characterized.
(Renmiri and Bolivar should have seen this post coming)
True beauty exists in things that last only for a moment.
Current Mood: And it's been a long December and there's reason to believe. Maybe this year will be better than the last. I can't remember all the times I tried to tell myself. To hold on to these moments as they pass...
I voted on XII. This game's story was just so much different. I found it to have the most depth. And who can deny the perfect quality of the cut-scenes - at times it felt like watching a movie. The downside is that it required too much level-grinding, which really slowed the pace of the story and made you sometimes lose track of it. I still love it, though...
I do not think of any particular Final Fantasy title as being the best Final Fantasy, but I think that Final Fantasy IV is a wonderful template for a classic console role-playing game.
I think that this may be a part of the Japanese culture of storytelling. If you notice, many Japanese console role-playing games fall into quite a few stereotypes and clichés —
I dislike Western console role-playing games. I wish that Japanese storyboard and storyline designers would take notes when a Western role-playing game is released, though, because they both have their strengths and they both have a lot to learn from. I am sure that a Western writer could have taken the basic plot elements from Final Fantasy X and brought the story to a whole new level.
I believe in the power of humanity.
I completely agree. My main problem with X when it first came out was that it felt like a dozen other RPGs I had played before. A few cosmetic changes to hide some tradtional elements but mostly a cookie cutter RPG. Like you, I don't care for Western style RPGs but there are elements I do like about it. The same goes with JRPGs. Personally, I feel both sides could learn a few things from the otherside. (Maybe I should post in the RPG thread...)I do not think of any particular Final Fantasy title as being the best Final Fantasy, but I think that Final Fantasy IV is a wonderful template for a classic console role-playing game.
I think that this may be a part of the Japanese culture of storytelling. If you notice, many Japanese console role-playing games fall into quite a few stereotypes and clichés —
I dislike Western console role-playing games. I wish that Japanese storyboard and storyline designers would take notes when a Western role-playing game is released, though, because they both have their strengths and they both have a lot to learn from. I am sure that a Western writer could have taken the basic plot elements from Final Fantasy X and brought the story to a whole new level.
True beauty exists in things that last only for a moment.
Current Mood: And it's been a long December and there's reason to believe. Maybe this year will be better than the last. I can't remember all the times I tried to tell myself. To hold on to these moments as they pass...
As you're not allowed to say VII without getting flamed on this internet, I'm gonna lie my arse off and say X-2.
Actually all of FF is fairly predictable. I had a feeling Aeris was going to die. And once she split, I knew she was the one for this installment that will be history. As they were killing off someone in each game for the past 3 installments of the series, at the time of 7's release (Tellah, Galuf, Leo and possibly shadow). I'm old, and wasn't a noob to the series with the release of 7. It's never anything new. They didn't stop the killing thing till 8. Even all of the fan bs rumor crap about resurrecting characters wasn't new. So much bs was written about how to resurrect General Leo in 6 long before anyone ever heard of Aeris. So even that repeats. As there's a thousand "so called ways to resurrect her" just like Leo.:mog: Morons. THEY'RE DEAD LIVE WITH IT! Both got stabbed.I can't allow the notion that X was well written. It's really terrible actually and feels (to me at least) like a jr. high story rewritten by a college student. Yes it uses archtypes but most fail to move past their stock personas and become something new or original (something most of the other FF succeed in though perhaps not in grand ways). This in turn makes the plot horribly predictable and the characters flat and two dimensional.
I am of the opinion, that they don't move further or stray from their archetype because they DID rely so much on the characters. If the other games got into characterization as much as X did you would be saying the same thing about them. The thing is in other games the stories of 3/4 of the cast was told in a flashback sequence and we as the gamer are left to guess about the rest of their life and form our own conclusions. THEIR CHARACTERIZATION wasn't really presented very much. If it was, you might have hated them too. So yea, if you like it that way then you wouldn't like X. It's the type of person you are. I agree it's not original, but I say, who needs to be original. If it's not broke don't fix it. But I disagree when you say that they had no growth. Wakka for example had to accept that Yevon was false. I'd call that growth.My real problem with X is that its completely processed. Taking concepts and ideas used before but not allowing for any kind of growth or originality. The plot is straight out of Japanese mythology and happens to be a rather overtold story at that... Its cast are text book examples of literary archtypes whose only level of originality is shallow back stories and in the form of visual design. As far as personality goes, the writer chooses to never allow the characters to stray from their archtype and instead creates a bland and predictable cast.
Most FF come from some type of mythologies. Most of the summoned monsters and many of the weapons are from mythologies. The early games focused on balance of nature and the 4 elements. 6 was band of rebels vs empire (One of my friends that borrowed my SNES FF3 and commented to me that it's just Star Wars). 7 was just Shin Buddhism with all that lifestream stuff (gaia theory for the educated in here). 8 was quantum physics with time and alternate dimensions. 9 had a lot of philosophy based writing also mixed with the gaia theory. Which tied into Garland's plan and him screwing up the balance of the planet.. So if you think about it, no FF is really original. It's just how each installment puts a spin on the topic or theory they are writing about. X is no different than the rest. Most people that didn't like X, it was due to the linear play. Which I could see their point. Though sometimes straying from the story for an over powered weapon does get annoying to me too. I don't know which I prefer (on the border there) One thing I KNOW I prefer was being able to rotate combatants in battle. That has chapped my ass for the whole damn series. And it was about time they brought that feature into the battle system. So tired of having 3-4 level 70 characters while everyone else is at level 15. Unless you're playing 7 of course in which case your party was your materia and you equipped your character ON the materia, not the other way around. Even actual character level didn't matter because HP+ materia granted far more health than the level did. And same with Stat boosting materia.The whole thing feels processed and formulatic, lacking anything orignal outside of world design. Perhaps this is why so much focus of X is on the world of Spira as its the only truly original concept in the game. X never surprised me and it never moved me emotionally like previous FFs had. It was just shallow and mediocre. I'm currently playing through it a third time but I doubt I'll finish it cause I seriously don't care. Its in fact, one of the few RPGs that I dislike more and more each time I play it. Personally, I don't care if people like the game. We al have different tastes, I just wanted to add my :twocents: on the topic of X being well written or characterized.
Just thought I would point some stuff out, we all have different opinions. I do agree though that X isn't for everyone.
Kefka wait.
Wait he says, Do I look like a Waiter?
Well I'll start off by saying I'm happy to see a well thought out response
Yes, many of the FFs are predictable but X for me was literally knowing how every scene was going to pan out. I knew around the time of Tidus' revelation about Yuna being sacrificed, what his fate was going to be. When the Yevon faith was presented early in the game, I knew it was going to turn out to be false and corrupt. Not cause I'm smart or anything but rather cause I had dealt with this scenario multiple time before (Xenogears, BoF2, and FFT to name a few...) what bothered me most was that it wasn't dealt with in an original or exciting way. At times I had to keep asking myself why certain elements were even in the plot since they were poorly dealt with.
Characterization is good but only when its done right. XII and Tactics for instance do wonderful characterizations and neither really deals with flashbacks. X has a very heavy emphasis on characterization I agree with but many of the other FF did as well (VI and IX come to mind) My problem with X is that the characters are more like pre-stock cliches than actual people. Even with the voice work, I never felt any empathy or sense of attachment to them which I've had no problem with even with the 8 and 16-bit era FFs.I am of the opinion, that they don't move further or stray from their archetype because they DID rely so much on the characters. If the other games got into characterization as much as X did you would be saying the same thing about them. The thing is in other games the stories of 3/4 of the cast was told in a flashback sequence and we as the gamer are left to guess about the rest of their life and form our own conclusions. THEIR CHARACTERIZATION wasn't really presented very much. If it was, you might have hated them too. So yea, if you like it that way then you wouldn't like X. It's the type of person you are. I agree it's not original, but I say, who needs to be original. If it's not broke don't fix it. But I disagree when you say that they had no growth. Wakka for example had to accept that Yevon was false. I'd call that growth.
When Celes tried to commit suicide it blew me away cause she had been portrayed as such a strong person, to watch her do such an act was an emotional blow and speaks depth of her character cause it showed another dynamic to her. Yuna deciding to continue her Pilgrimage despite learning its pointless was not so much cause Yuna' personality is trapped in the confines of her archtype so the player knew (or at least should have known) what her decision should have been. Even her crying wasn't out of character for her. She, like all of the cast never strayed from their surface personas. How can a story have emotional impact when its cast are card board cut outs?
Cloud, Squall, Kain, and Vivi were far more than their surface appearance. There was a true change in the characters (like Bolivar had mentioned) even though Wakka was hit with the impact of learning Yevon was false (Since he's the games token Billy or Rei, cause the rules stipulate that games with false religions have to have some religious nut who gets his world shattered by the truth) he goes from denial to acceptance and moves on like nothing had happened.
Had he been a real person, he may have left the group despite his close ties to Yuna, especially considering how much the game tries to make him out as a faithful follower. It shouldn't be outside the realm of possibility considering he left a previous Pilgrimage due to bliztball of all things. He may have left or at least more focus could have been placed on him trying to discover something else to fill that void. Basically, he's left as a characture cause it works for the story whereas real people tend to complicate things...
I understand that all the FF use cliches or archtypes, in fact many characters are the original basis for some of them. Where we differ in opinion I assume is that to me, the other FFs started with these archtypes and as the story moves on they grow into more realistic people. They move past the archtypes and become people that can be empathized with. Granted the games are not equal to all, there are several character who never move past their archtypes. As you have said many of the games focus on a few handfuls and 3/4 of the cast is left in the cold.
Yes many of the plots are not original and I agree that in the world of writing, its not so much about creating original content as much as its about creating an original spin on an old idea. Yes II, XII, and even VI (though its more of a stretch than the other two IMO) are heavily based on Star wars (which in turn is based on several different myths and legends).Most FF come from some type of mythologies. Most of the summoned monsters and many of the weapons are from mythologies. The early games focused on balance of nature and the 4 elements. 6 was band of rebels vs empire (One of my friends that borrowed my SNES FF3 and commented to me that it's just Star Wars). 7 was just Shin Buddhism with all that lifestream stuff (gaia theory for the educated in here). 8 was quantum physics with time and alternate dimensions. 9 had a lot of philosophy based writing also mixed with the gaia theory. Which tied into Garland's plan and him screwing up the balance of the planet.. So if you think about it, no FF is really original. It's just how each installment puts a spin on the topic or theory they are writing about. X is no different than the rest. Most people that didn't like X, it was due to the linear play. Which I could see their point. Though sometimes straying from the story for an over powered weapon does get annoying to me too. I don't know which I prefer (on the border there) One thing I KNOW I prefer was being able to rotate combatants in battle. That has chapped my ass for the whole damn series. And it was about time they brought that feature into the battle system. So tired of having 3-4 level 70 characters while everyone else is at level 15. Unless you're playing 7 of course in which case your party was your materia and you equipped your character ON the materia, not the other way around. Even actual character level didn't matter because HP+ materia granted far more health than the level did. And same with Stat boosting materia.
Just thought I would point some stuff out, we all have different opinions. I do agree though that X isn't for everyone.
X is almost the tale of Orochi verbatim. Two earthly dieties (Spira) are terrorized constantly by the evil Orochi (Sin), the hero Susan-O (Tidus) appears before them while on his travels, he had been cast out of heaven (Zanarkand) and thrust into the strange world of mortals. He learns the diesties sacrifice their daughters (summoners) in order to appease the beast only to have it return to wreak havoc later (Spiral of Death theme) Susano-O decides to kill the beast after meeting the last maiden to be sacrificed Kushi-inada-hime (Yuna), first he lulls it to sleep by feeding it sake (Hymn of the Fayeth) and finally kills the beast. Other versions of this story has the dieties replaced with a village and even focus on the misguided notions of the villages belief in sacrificing the maidens as the only way to save themselves. Thus you have your reference to the Yevon religion.
Many of the other FFs borrow from other stories but very few are this damn close to the original. Its practically the tale with an FF spin to it. Its a good story and one of my favorite japanese legends but I have seen it done better in other places. I guess I wouldn't hold X being the story of Yamata no Orochi against it but rather the fact thats it couldn't come up with an interesting spin on it for me
Though I do agree with you that the ability to switch out party members mid-battle was something much needed in the series. It had a few issues (like getting a gameover cause the active party is dead or being unable to switch out dead characters for live ones) but luckily XII accomodated these issues.
True beauty exists in things that last only for a moment.
Current Mood: And it's been a long December and there's reason to believe. Maybe this year will be better than the last. I can't remember all the times I tried to tell myself. To hold on to these moments as they pass...
When I read it, I thought to myself "I wonder what WK would think of this?" well...(Renmiri and Bolivar should have seen this post coming
Cyric brought up the ending of FFX... I re-played it over my winter break, and watching the ending, especially the part ontop of the farenheit, I honestly felt like crying, my stomach was in knots, it was such a... DAMMIT HOW CAN YOU NOT LIKE THIS BEAUTIFUL PIECE OF ART!???
Lord knows how much we've discussed characters, so i'm just gonna say this: different strokes for different folks. I personally liked every one of the characters, I can honestly say I know people in real life like Lulu, or Wakka, and Tidus, and maybe that's why the newer games do it for me, because I can relate to the characters. I'll admit, you brining up that Susan-O whatever story thingy was like finding out Santa Claus isn't real, but I still feel it was an amazing story that gives alot for the player to take out of it.
I also wanted to say, I, too was blown away by Celes trying to commit suicide, but moreso due to the fact that like so many things in VI, it was really ahead of its time, and it's a shock to see a 16 bit game do things like that, like when Draco opens his mouth and begins singing. But she was pretty weak through out, expressing her melancholy consistently in several scenes, beginning with her very introduction, when she tells Locke to leave her there.
After Auron leaves, the ending means-all.
That's my well thought out response.
But seriously, I liked FFX. FFX-2 even has its story merits in the Crimson Squad bit and the whole intrigue of seeing a post-fundamentalist world.
As for FFX itself, the Yevon faith was easily the mos tinteresting part. Tidus and Yuna was rather irrelevant for the parts of the story I cared about. Unless the history of Jecht, Braska and Auron is somehow tied in with Tidus and Yuna's story which i don't think it is.
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