Final Fantasy VII: Overrated?

[ljkkjlcm9]

FFVII's only individuality between characters was limit breaks. This made me decide on Cid Barret and Cloud as my party, because they had the most hits on their level 4 limit breaks... that's all there was to it.

In FFVIII, it was similar, limits being the unique thing.
FFIX went back to FFVI type thing and each character had their special skills... real reasons to pick certain characters again.
FFXII, you could make everyone identical again, even make every character able to do everything. Every character could be like Gogo was in VI.

I loved VI, because it gave me a reason to use different characters. They were actually unique. It was basically like FFV, except rather than a single character choosing what he did, you had a specific character that did it. Liked the Samurai and GP toss, well use Setzer, etc...

honestly VII had one major problem I didn't see in any of the previous games. Yes they had their problems, but not like VII.
in I, you picked you characters, and there was reason behind them
in II, your characters had to be trained certain ways. If you made them a mage, they'd suck as a fighter, and vice versa. Characters were different depending on how you made them.
in III, you choose classes again. But now you can change. But then again, if you leveled as a mage previously, stick with that character as a mage.
in IV, it's MAJOR flaw, was being forced to use certain characters with certain abilities. GBA fixed this by letting you pick characters. DS fixed this by allowing customization of the characters you're forced to have.
in V, it was like III, except a bit more so, and a bit more lenient. You could mix and match classes, but still, depending how you leveled them, they were permanently affected.
Then VI. Which to me, perfected all the previous games. You have all the different classes like I, or III, or V... you have specific characters having certain abilities, like IV. You have customizable stats like II (with espers). ON top of that, you had Gogo, who could use any abilities you wanted, but at the price of not being as good as the original. Basically, I saw VI as taking the best of all the previous games, and putting it together.
VII was a step back for me from that. I felt like there was no difference between the characters, and the one person who truly stood out, was killed. It's my biggest problem with the game, and will always be my biggest problem with the game. I felt the battle system was a step back from VI.

THE JACKEL

[Lawr]

in IV, it's MAJOR flaw, was being forced to use certain characters with certain abilities. GBA fixed this by letting you pick characters. DS fixed this by allowing customization of the characters you're forced to have.

Well, I think that would be a challenge aspect of the game IMO. You're given something and utilize their strengths and weakness, like how you could have an alternating number of people in the front/back rows.

[Goldenboko]

I agree with Sagensyg 100%

[FF_Chick]

I think FFVII is overrated. It is hard to even play the game. I see nothing good nor great about it. I have finished it, twice. And yet, I see nothing to be in "awe" about. So to me, it's overrated.

And the fanboys who think I hate it because it's "cool", fine then. I hate FFVII because it's "cool." Believe whatever you want.

[Karellen]

The point is that they have an impact on your status and the more magic and summons you load on a character, the weaker it gets. You also have a limited number of slots for materia per character, something that prevents you from overloading a character with all magic and summons.

As I said though, the stat effects aren’t significant enough to dissuade one from giving characters magic material as they see fit. Similarly, while the material slots prevent you from using everything they’re not much of a restriction either. ONLY being able to equip 4-16 materia isn’t much of a restriction. For the most part I found the amount of material slots was relatively proportional to the amount of material I had, leaving me with quite an easy task of weeding out the amount that was useless anyway.

Compare that with how things are on the two previous games, where you can have a character with all the white and black magic and even summons available at any time without suffering any penalties. Want to have Sabin with Ultima, Flare, Meteo, all Cures, Fires, Bolts, Ice, etc in VI? Just get him to learn it from the Espers and he can carry as much magic as you want him to without this detracting from his stats. Not mention that after he learns the spells from the Espers he does not needs to keep it but can pass it along and still retain as many spells as you want him to. Unlike in VII where you must keep the materia on the character despite the fact that you have mastered it.

I don’t know why you are comparing the system to FFVI when I already said I don’t consider FFVI to have a good system either.

In V things are quite similar, a Mimic can use all the white and black spells you have learned and the summons you have at any time. Or if you use the Suppin (normal) class, you can access all the abilities of your mastered classes at any time and even a couple of skills, again without significant penalties to your stats.

This is true but at the same time what you’re describing isn’t really all that flexable. A mimic with three types of magic will have to forgo the item command and any auto-abilities. It wouldn’t be hard to come up with a really good combination of those three choices (depending on how many classes you’ve mastered. I only had about 5 mastered for each character by end game) but that’s far more limited then what the material system allows.

I would say that the materia system in VII puts on you more limitations than the system in VI and about the same if not more than the system in V. That the enemies are less challenging is besides the point and quite frankly, something that not everyone would agree with.

I have never met anyone who thinks FFVII is harder then FFV. Possibly FFVI, depending on who you ask.

Some are on the ground in several places, others require defeating bosses (i.e. Bahamut, Shiva) and other require doing side quests (i.e. Leviatan) or completing certain missions within specific parameters (i.e. Ultima, Phoenix). That is hardly different from the way you find Espers in VI and Jobs in V, the latter of which you get from crystals, something that you must obtain to advance the plot.

Getting jobs in FFV isn’t the exact equivalent of getting powerful material in FFVII. Most of them have to be leveled up significantly to get their best abilities and some that have cool abilities are pretty useless in and of themselves (hunter, for example). Materia usually gets progressively more powerful as it levels up as well but unlike FFV where you can only level one job at a time any materia you have equipped levels up at the same rate which makes any sort of planning irrelevant.

[Egami]

I was way too underleveled to beat Emerald and Ruby but by stacking up on HP Pluses, Mimic, and KOTR the entire thing was effortless.

Obtaining Mime and KOTR is hardly effortless, you have to spend some time raising chocobos to get them and even then, the location of KOTR is not even hinted at in the game or the map. Sure, having Mime and KOTR makes the battle against the weapons easier but still, a mere one star KOTR with one Mime won’t really do, especially if you are underleveled.

Many strong summons didn't require that kind of work. I remember quite a lot of materia (Bahamut ZERO anyone?) being in easily obtained places as long as you paid attention. Worse yet these summons didn't require leveling to be strong at all.

Well, how much leveling did you need to do for Ultima, Flare or Holy to be strong in V and VI? Not much. In VII, while a summon is strong right off the bat, they require leveling to get stronger and for you to be able to use them more than once per battle.

As I pointed out previously, materias of any type are obtained in different ways in VII, ways that are very much the same as in the previous games. Some are easy to find and some are hard. It is like that with everything in any game.

FFV the summons weren't as powerful, yet in most cases (let's exclude KOTR) where just as difficult if not more so to find (without a strategy guides help I would've never found Ramuh a summon that isn't even worth much).

Yet, some people actually complain a lot (about XII in particular) because some FFs make you rely on a strategy guide to find some things; something which is seen by many as a cheap trick done to sell the guide. All games (V, VI and VII) have things that are hard to find and others that are easy. Just as you get many materias easily in VII, so too you get many Espers easily in VI (Magitek Factory comes to mind) and classes in V.

The real strengths came in leveling your classes, (Ranger, Monk, Magic Swordsman) which required time, thought for combinations, and when it comes down to it, either knowledge of the game already so you know what you get when you level, or a guide of some sort.

All of which can as easily be said about VII. You need to level up the materias to get the spells you need and equip the materia you want to level up and combine then in different ways, all of which requires thought for combinations. You are free to say that V requires more strategy and what not, but really that is something rather subjective and not really on point.

In FFVII you where rewarded for just, paying, attention. As for VI, I found that game broken, but not until the World of Ruin, and even then everything required some sort of work. Even Altima weapon because you had to level it by killing monsters (Offer+Genji Glove+Altima Weapon+2nd most powerful weapon=Win).

In every FF all things require some work. Materias in VII do not come mastered and with all their abilities enabled, you have to spend time to level them up before you get to use them fully and with summons you must level them up to make them more powerful and to be able to use them several times per battle.

You also forget about Master Materia which offers only benefits. All magic on Barret with no consequences. In comparison to your earlier example; sure you can remove the materia and Barret doesn't have them anymore whereas Sabin retains it but lets be serious here... Who uses Sabin as a mage? Hell, I would argue restricting him to magic is a handicap for the player.

Feel free to change Sabin for any other character . I just used him as an example because he was the first one to come to mind.

As far as the Master Materia goes, granted, it does offer only benefits, but how easy is to get it? It certainly is not something you obtain by following the main course of the game. It involves quite a bit of effort and time to get your hands on it and by the point you get it, I would say that it isn’t that relevant. I mean, if you are able to beat Emerald weapon without it, or if you already have all summons mastered (for example), what advantage does it really adds? By that point you are not going to be using Shiva, Ifrit, Ramuth or any other summon with the exception of the most powerful ones nor will you be using Ice, Fire or Bolt in place of more powerful magic.

The thing I've noticed about VII's though, is that in all my games I end up using Enemy Skill materia exclusively and stop using magic all together.

The Enemy Skill materia while useful does not comes with all skills in it. You have to not only have it equipped but also must face some particular enemies and endure one of their special attacks in order to learn that skill. Add to that the fact that even if you learn an ability like Aqualung from a monster, it is not passed down to all your Enemy Skill materias but only to the ones you have equipped and if the skill hits a single target, your chances of learning the skill get lower. If you don’t know where and from whom you obtain the different skills, chances are that you will miss quite a few, something that will eventually lead you to balance things out between magic and Enemy Skills, especially when some Enemy Skills like Magic Breath actually heal some enemies.

In my current file I just got Time and Barrier materia and I haven't touched them. Why would I neglect such powerful materia? Cause I have Mighty Guard which casts Haste, Shell, and Protect on my whole party in one round. Saving me anywhere from two to four slots. The thing makes magic materia obsolete imo.

What you are pointing out is simply an alternative way of going around things, hardly a problem with the game itself. Different ways of going about things are found in nearly all FFs. As I pointed out above, in order to obtain such skills as Big Guard, you have to face specific monsters and be lucky that they use the skill and you have the Enemy Skill materia equipped. But what if you don’t and missed the monster that gives you that skill or you simply don’t know that you can have it? That happens to a lot of people and instead they use the Time and Barrier materias.

My problem with the battle system overall in VII is that its really cool in the beginning where you are quite restricted. Yet due to overpowered materia, Limit Breaks, and equipment, the whole system falls apart. It offers strategy but the game lacks challenge to ever need to use it as well as overpowered abilities and options that makes forming intricate strategies a waste of time.

Well I agree on some points with you here. The game, the enemies in particular, is quite easy and lacks challenge. This lack of challenge probably ends up hindering the potential of the materia system. However, I don’t see this lack of challenge as something that emerges from the materia system itself but more from the overall difficulty of the enemies you face. Given the wide range of possibilities that the materia system gives, I think that they should have made the enemies or at least the bosses in such a way that their stats vary depending on your level or even on what sort of materias you have equipped, very much like the attack “Aire Tam Storm” of Emerald Weapon, which does damage based on how much materia you have equipped; or they could simply just make the enemies a bit harder than they are. Hopefully if they do a remake the difficulty of the game will be increased.

Anyway, good post Wolf Kanno. Nice to see more intelligent points raised about the game

Getting jobs in FFV isn’t the exact equivalent of getting powerful material in FFVII. Most of them have to be leveled up significantly to get their best abilities and some that have cool abilities are pretty useless in and of themselves (hunter, for example). Materia usually gets progressively more powerful as it levels up as well but unlike FFV where you can only level one job at a time any materia you have equipped levels up at the same rate which makes any sort of planning irrelevant.

Just as some jobs in V are useless in and of themselves until you get their cool abilities, so too some materias are useless until you level them up and are able to use them in battle (Ultima, FullCure, etc).

The materia system is very much the same job system of V broken down into smaller pieces. The materia system just grants you the ability to make up your own class by allowing you to assign materias pertaining to different jobs to a single character. Both systems have their limitations. In V, while a black mage is limited to black magic, at level 1 he can use Fire, Ice and Bolt on their first level and as he levels up, the three spells level up at the same time and he can use Fire 2, Ice 2 and Bolt 2 and so on. In VII, while I can use Fire, Ice and Bolt from the get go if I equip their materias, if my Ice materia levels up I can use Ice 2, but it doesn’t follows that I can also use Fire 2 and Bolt 2. I need to level up each materia individually and all materias need different amounts of AP to level up, very much like the jobs in V. On top of that, unlike in V, where your black mage can target all enemies with a given spell right away, in VII you must assign an All materia to a particular magic materia in order to be able to hit all enemies with it and this materia must also be leveled up individually if you want to be able to do this more than once per battle. So again, while I may be able to hit all enemies with my Ice materia, it doesn't follows that I can do it with my Fire materia.

So, while in V you can only level up one job at a time, all the abilities of that particular job level up at the same rate, very much as the materias that you equip your characters with do.

[PeneloRatsbane]

boring......does no one just play for funzies instead of going on and on and on about leveling up and battling

[Egami]

boring......does no one just play for funzies instead of going on and on and on about leveling up and battling

Sure

But the topic of the thread is wether or not VII is overrated. People who think so are bringing up different reasons as to why they think the game is not great.

[PeneloRatsbane]

......I understand the concept of the thread....
LMAO
But surely you can see the futility and sheer boredom it breeds. I mean i'm all for a debate but come on there has to be a line drawn somewhere.
All the problems in the world, this one seems rather miniscule.
FFVII is fun! thats the point of it, isn't it? X

[Egami]

But surely you can see the futility and sheer boredom it breeds. I mean i'm all for a debate but come on there has to be a line drawn somewhere.

Well, perhaps since you have been here for over a year this sort of stuff bores you. For me this is something new, I had never discussed let alone debate about a videogame before, this is the first time I've ever done this.

But still, I do get what you mean.

[Bolivar]

Getting jobs in FFV isn’t the exact equivalent of getting powerful material in FFVII. Most of them have to be leveled up significantly to get their best abilities and some that have cool abilities are pretty useless in and of themselves (hunter, for example).

Actually, the Hunter's ability to use swords and !Aim makes him one of the few good candidates for the Blood Sword, which is insane once you figure out how to get it working.

VII was a step back for me from that. I felt like there was no difference between the characters, and the one person who truly stood out, was killed. It's my biggest problem with the game, and will always be my biggest problem with the game. I felt the battle system was a step back from VI.

Man I disagree completely, especially on the VII to VI comparison.

First off, the differences between characters in VII was limit breaks, statistics, and weapon classes, which are the only real divisions in VI. VI's character abilities were basically the same as limit breaks, except you could spam them every turn, completely removing strategy or variation, so I have to say if anything VII improved upon VI, not the adverse. And alot of the weapon classes in VI overlapped, so the characters aren't really as unique as you're making them out to be.

The Esper system in VI has to be probably the worst the series has ever seen. Every character can permanently learn every spell, and because of the time you spend, you may as well have them all learn the most powerful spells - completely annihilating uniqueness - basically every character is a mage, only a handful of the large cast get enough unique equipment to make them more than that. Not to mention that the statistic effects are so minimal, that it's really only at the end of the game (and that's if you did a considerable amount of the sidequests/grinding) that it really has any impact.

VII's statistic impact was immediate and noticeable. Loading a character with magic spells will diminish their physical attack, but give them a huge edge magically. But you still have to think with it, because loading up Barret or Cid will never make effective mages as it would Cloud or Red XIII.

The strategy is there, and as with all other FF's, the most effective battle plan is to capitalize on each character's strengths, even if it means further compromising their weaknesses - this has been all throughout the series. But the best part about VII is that you can ignore it and just have fun if you want to, rendering this entire discussion pointless.

That's yet another reason why VII brought so many mainstream/casual gamers into the RPG fold - it wasn't nearly as dreadfully monotonous as RPGs had been up to that point. And I know because I played alot of them and still do.

[Wolf Kanno]

You also forget about Master Materia which offers only benefits. All magic on Barret with no consequences. In comparison to your earlier example; sure you can remove the materia and Barret doesn't have them anymore whereas Sabin retains it but lets be serious here... Who uses Sabin as a mage? Hell, I would argue restricting him to magic is a handicap for the player.

Feel free to change Sabin for any other character . I just used him as an example because he was the first one to come to mind.

I just had to make a joke about it.

As far as the Master Materia goes, granted, it does offer only benefits, but how easy is to get it? It certainly is not something you obtain by following the main course of the game. It involves quite a bit of effort and time to get your hands on it and by the point you get it, I would say that it isn’t that relevant. I mean, if you are able to beat Emerald weapon without it, or if you already have all summons mastered (for example), what advantage does it really adds? By that point you are not going to be using Shiva, Ifrit, Ramuh or any other summon with the exception of the most powerful ones nor will you be using Ice, Fire or Bolt in place of more powerful magic.

The same can be said of all the other FFs to be honest, but I feel the time it takes to make Master Materia is actually not as hard as some feel. Magic and Command materia are quite easy if you know a good leveling spot (same as V, VI, X, and XII). Summon not so much but then again, who need 3 Knights of the Round? Personally, I never felt magic materia was all that important except for using in conjunction with Element and Added Effect Materia. Command Materia in conjunction with Ultimate Weapons (plain broken) makes magic obsolete. Hades, Bahamut Zero with Quad magic and Knights of the Round; these are just a few materia's that hold no tactical value cause they basically mean instant win.

The Enemy Skill materia while useful does not comes with all skills in it. You have to not only have it equipped but also must face some particular enemies and endure one of their special attacks in order to learn that skill. Add to that the fact that even if you learn an ability like Aqualung from a monster, it is not passed down to all your Enemy Skill materias but only to the ones you have equipped and if the skill hits a single target, your chances of learning the skill get lower. If you don’t know where and from whom you obtain the different skills, chances are that you will miss quite a few, something that will eventually lead you to balance things out between magic and Enemy Skills, especially when some Enemy Skills like Magic Breath actually heal some enemies.

The problem with your argument is that you are assuming its a first playthrough. I would agree you are right under those circumstances but I'm talking about a second or third playthrough when you finally understand the system better. You get two Enemy Skill materia fairly early (Shin-Ra building and Junon) and most of the broken abilities are fairly easy to obtain once you know where to get them due to experience. Manipulate and Control are your weapon of choices when gaining such skills and Cait Sith comes equipped with one in time and shows up relatively early in the game, as opposed to getting the Fake Mustache in VI or leveling the Tamer class in V. I'm not even out of the first disc in my current file and I have 3/5 if not 2/3 of all the Blue magic in the game. Hell the three most abusive spells (Magic Hammer, White Wind, and Mighty Guard) are openly used by their monsters, so it doesn't take long to figure out who you need to manipulate.

I also would like to point out that VII's version of White Wind and Mighty Guard are far more broken than earlier and even later counterparts. With HP materia, White Wind makes even the magically challenged uber powerful healers and its ability to remove all status ailments makes it even more useful. Only in VII does Mighty Guard cast haste on your party as well.

My problem with the battle system overall in VII is that its really cool in the beginning where you are quite restricted. Yet due to overpowered materia, Limit Breaks, and equipment, the whole system falls apart. It offers strategy but the game lacks challenge to ever need to use it as well as overpowered abilities and options that makes forming intricate strategies a waste of time.

Well I agree on some points with you here. The game, the enemies in particular, is quite easy and lacks challenge. This lack of challenge probably ends up hindering the potential of the materia system. However, I don’t see this lack of challenge as something that emerges from the materia system itself but more from the overall difficulty of the enemies you face. Given the wide range of possibilities that the materia system gives, I think that they should have made the enemies or at least the bosses in such a way that their stats vary depending on your level or even on what sort of materias you have equipped, very much like the attack “Aire Tam Storm” of Emerald Weapon, which does damage based on how much materia you have equipped; or they could simply just make the enemies a bit harder than they are. Hopefully if they do a remake the difficulty of the game will be increased.

I agree that the enemies lack difficulty, it was a problem I felt appeared first in its predecessor. Granted the difficulty issues are far more terrible in later installments (VIII and X respectively) but like VI I felt the average difficulty level made the flaws in the gameplay more apparent. Even if the enemies were a bit tougher, it wouldn't change the fact that Level 3 and up limit breaks, Ultimate weapons, 2x/4x Cut, Slash-All and KotR are insanely broken in comparison to earlier games.. They are relatively easier to obtain, and as Bolivar pointed out, the Materia system allows you to experience their power immediately in some of the cases whereas in previous installments you had to earn such power and even then few were as blatantly broken. As I said earlier, I like the idea behind the materia system but too many factors (mediocre difficulty, overpowered end-game abilities and broken materia) make it unable to reach its true potential.

Anyway, good post Wolf Kanno. Nice to see more intelligent points raised about the game

Thank you, its nice to see more well thought out debates. I'm certain, Bolivar and The Crystal are bored with me and my cynical view.

VII was a step back for me from that. I felt like there was no difference between the characters, and the one person who truly stood out, was killed. It's my biggest problem with the game, and will always be my biggest problem with the game. I felt the battle system was a step back from VI.

Man I disagree completely, especially on the VII to VI comparison.

First off, the differences between characters in VII was limit breaks, statistics, and weapon classes, which are the only real divisions in VI. VI's character abilities were basically the same as limit breaks, except you could spam them every turn, completely removing strategy or variation, so I have to say if anything VII improved upon VI, not the adverse. And alot of the weapon classes in VI overlapped, so the characters aren't really as unique as you're making them out to be.

Statistics? Weapon Class? In VII? Seriously, I found the statistics in VI were far more important than VII. Materia never seemed to create major changes in my parties stats. I've played this game half a dozen times and I never noticed major changes. Its not that I don't believe they exist but I just never felt they made any difference either for the better or for the worse. The only obvious change was hp and mp and with the mediocre difficulty I never felt low hp was a serious threat since very few enemies can do serious damage until the end of the game. Cloud and Aerith are the only two characters with significant stat differences and the rest have such minor changes its like debating about the statistical difference of your party in VIII which most would agree is irrelevant. Hell stats don't mean anything once you get the Ultimate weapons.

Weapons? If you are talking about long range, it rarely had any tactical advantage except in two boss fights, which I don't consider a very compelling use of its versatility. IV made better use of long range weapons than VII did. The only person who had a gimp weapon was Aerith but its obvious she was designed to be a traditional mage character.

The Esper system in VI has to be probably the worst the series has ever seen. Every character can permanently learn every spell, and because of the time you spend, you may as well have them all learn the most powerful spells - completely annihilating uniqueness - basically every character is a mage, only a handful of the large cast get enough unique equipment to make them more than that. Not to mention that the statistic effects are so minimal, that it's really only at the end of the game (and that's if you did a considerable amount of the sidequests/grinding) that it really has any impact.

First off, their is actually enough noticeable stat differences in VI's cast to make teaching every spell a unnecessary. Outside of giving Cyan buff spells and healing magic, he's a lousy mage. Hell if VI didn't have the three uber broken weapons, Terra would be a lousy warrior. If Locke didn't have the Valiant Knife he would be all but useless cause he's an ok fighter and a mediocre mage at best. Course VI does smurf it all up with character specific super weapons but not everyone got one.

VI had a better variety of weapons and their uses are better diversified for the party in comparison to VII (though XII and V kicks both their asses imo) Outside of long range the party weapons offer little in special ability (mostly cause the materia system made it pointless to do so) occasionally you get a weapon that changes materia growth or one that powers up when an ally dies but that's it. Its left to the materia system and for the most part, I felt the game never made it practical to add elements or status elements to weapons and armor, if only cause the Elemental/Added Effect materia are few and far between. It was there but it didn't have the benefits of previous games rendering useless for all but the bored.

As for the stat growth, it is powerful and quite deep. In a first play through it might not seem like much but once you get the basics of your party down and realize how their stats affect them it becomes obvious that the stat bonuses are important and careful planning makes it useful. As I mentioned before, teaching magic to Cyan or Sabin is pretty useless sense they are lousy mages. You're time leveling your real mages can also be spent boosting Cyan and Sabin's stats like speed, strength or their HP. it only takes a few levels to notice a difference. If you are going for efficiency, its better to teach magic to those who can actually use it and boost the stats of those who need it for their special abilities. Granted, Edgar, Celes and Setzer cause a bit of gray area but overall they have quite a few customization options that allow diversification.

Which brings me to relics. Yes only a few characters have personal ones but you seem to forget that not everyone can use every relic effectively. Genji Gloves and the Offering/Master Scroll is powerful but lets face it, a few characters skills makes the combo useless. Only characters able to equip the uber broken weapons or Setzer and his Fixed Dice can use the combination effectively. Some relics can either cover up a characters weakness or or exploit their strengths, and hey guess what, the effect is felt immediate as well.

That's yet another reason why VII brought so many mainstream/casual gamers into the RPG fold - it wasn't nearly as dreadfully monotonous as RPGs had been up to that point. And I know because I played alot of them and still do.

Not monotonous? it still requires grinding to get anywhere, and if your silly enough to want high level magic, that's even more grinding. Hell, just trying to master half the materia or get spells like Ultima, Flare, and Life2 will require you to grind more than you would have, had it been based on levels. That is the main problem with materia, it is your party. It doesn't matter what your parties actual level is or who they are as long as the materia is high enough. Sure it allows you to use your favorite characters without worrying about consequences but where is the fun in that? I like using my favorite characters regardless if they are the strongest or most useful. It brings back IV's system where you need to exploit the useful traits of your characters. In example, despite how game breaking, broken the Figaro brothers are, I don't use them. Why? cause I like other characters better.

The materia system may indeed be noob friendly yes, but for people like me who enjoy deep customization it leaves much to be desired. In earlier games, certain parties or job classes work better than others, in VII it only matters what your materia is. Ultimate weapons allow everyone to do max damage even if you have been neglecting levels. By end game the only thing that separates Limit breaks is how many time they hit the enemy. Where is the strategy and fun in that?

Overall, I feel VII's system is ok, it offers the potential for strategy but the game difficulty makes alot of it pointless imo. It depends on your poison, I like VI's system better cause it offers better customization and special abilities and a system that offers permanent statistical differences; makes turning your parties into complete clones difficult. VI also suffers from overpowered abilities and a mediocre difficulty; but I feel the game offers enough for me personally to ignore these faults.

[Hyperion4444]

overated?
not really...
oversold.
definatly!

[Bolivar]

Hell the three most abusive spells (Magic Hammer, White Wind, and Mighty Guard) are openly used by their monsters, so it doesn't take long to figure out who you need to manipulate.

I just have to say that's not true, well sorta. On the first disc, White Wind is only available (pretty sure) on the first continent, and you can only get it after obtaining manipulate on the second. Alot of players probably don't know you can boat back to the first, much less think about going there.

Anyway, good post Wolf Kanno. Nice to see more intelligent points raised about the game

Thank you, its nice to see more well thought out debates. I'm certain, Bolivar and The Crystal are bored with me and my cynical view.

Not at all, your posts at least bring up debatable material and some actual insight (every now and then of course )

Statistics? Weapon Class? In VII? Seriously, I found the statistics in VI were far more important than VII. Materia never seemed to create major changes in my parties stats. I've played this game half a dozen times and I never noticed major changes. Its not that I don't believe they exist but I just never felt they made any difference either for the better or for the worse. The only obvious change was hp and mp and with the mediocre difficulty I never felt low hp was a serious threat since very few enemies can do serious damage until the end of the game. Cloud and Aerith are the only two characters with significant stat differences and the rest have such minor changes its like debating about the statistical difference of your party in VIII which most would agree is irrelevant. Hell stats don't mean anything once you get the Ultimate weapons.

Weapons? If you are talking about long range, it rarely had any tactical advantage except in two boss fights, which I don't consider a very compelling use of its versatility. IV made better use of long range weapons than VII did. The only person who had a gimp weapon was Aerith but its obvious she was designed to be a traditional mage character.

I never said the stat meanings/effects were stellar. I simply said they are there, and it is indeed noticeable, however minor, that you will hit for less and have less hp if magic materia is equipped. And likewise, Barret and Tifa will never become as good mages as Cloud or Red XIII. That's not really debatable.

In VI, however, the first espers you get have the opportunity to (permanently) teach your characters -ara class spells. To even use your own example - I usually give Cyan Ramuh for the +1 Stamina bonus. Despite your assurance that giving such characters magic is pointless, it doesn't change the fact that for a good point in the game Cyan tears through multiple enemies at a time with Thundara.

The only point I made about weapons was that it distinguished characters, each one had their own distinct weapon class, while many of them, such as swords and daggers overlap in VI. And there are more than "rare" instances when ranged weapons make a difference - we could go down the list of fliers, or settle for the fact that such a large quantity of battles have front and back rows of enemies.

Outside of giving Cyan buff spells and healing magic, he's a lousy mage. Hell if VI didn't have the three uber broken weapons, Terra would be a lousy warrior. If Locke didn't have the Valiant Knife he would be all but useless cause he's an ok fighter and a mediocre mage at best. Course VI does smurf it all up with character specific super weapons but not everyone got one.

I gotta flip your own argument on you on this one. Not only did I provide the -ara example, but at the end of the game, any character with -aga spells are going to do some damage, simple and plain. And, ironically, in VI the stat differences are not big enough to hinder Terra's ability as a warrior. Give her any sword as it becomes available and she'll probably rock with it. Not as much as Edgar, but still. And Locke does get a good flux of unique weapons all throughout the game - I know this is getting a little too technical, just thought I'd throw it in

Outside of long range the party weapons offer little in special ability (mostly cause the materia system made it pointless to do so) occasionally you get a weapon that changes materia growth or one that powers up when an ally dies but that's it.

Actually, there are plenty of weapons throughout the game that calls for the player to make a choice, whether it be little to no materia slots for higher ATK, or the growth issue. Just because you only remember the Yoshiyuki doesn't mean they're not there.

As for the stat growth, it is powerful and quite deep.

While I agree with, and definately use, the principles of comparative advantage you talk about on every playthrough, I have to say you're really exaggerating here. Maybe you honestly believe this, but I've played VI plenty of times, and I just can't agree at all. Cyan and Edgar will be killer tanks throughout the game, no matter what espers you give them.

Not monotonous? it still requires grinding to get anywhere, and if your silly enough to want high level magic, that's even more grinding.

I was simply referring to the casual gamer being able to play through it without having to focus too much on numbers or dragging him/herself through boring dungeons which look exactly like the last one (It got old really fast in VI). Of course VII is hardly the most in-depth RPG battle system, but the quest for efficiency is there if you desire it, and I myself fine tune my strategy, even just a little, each time I play.

In earlier games, certain parties or job classes work better than others, in VII it only matters what your materia is.

Dude, that's like saying only jobs matter in III or V, or only equipment and spells matter in II, since the characters are even less distinct in those games than they are in VII. Actually, that's exactly what it's supposed to be, and I think all of those games have interesting systems, so it's hardly a fault at all. Just another cop out to bash the game.

Word.

[Wolf Kanno]

I just have to say that's not true, well sorta. On the first disc, White Wind is only available (pretty sure) on the first continent, and you can only get it after obtaining manipulate on the second. Alot of players probably don't know you can boat back to the first, much less think about going there.

Like Egami, the fault, in your argument is you are assuming its just first timers or very very casual gamers. A seasoned player knows they can go back because you need to grab the Mythril from the sleeping old man so you can get Aerith's Great Gospel Limit Break. Magic Hammer is obtained on the third continent with Wutai, which I would also like to point out that after you steal the Tiny Bronco, the game starts you on the shores of the third continent. Mighty Guard is from the nautilus looking monsters found on most of the beaches of the second continent. Another thing to point out is that Manipulate is the easiest way to obtain them. If you really wanted them before that, you could farm Loco Grass dropped from the Hammer Blasters, Sword Masters, and 3rd Class SOLDIERS in the Shin-Ra Tower. A little confusion and you have a decent chance of the monster pulling off the Enemy Skill. Granted, even I feel this is excessive but it is possible.

I never said the stat meanings/effects were stellar. I simply said they are there, and it is indeed noticeable, however minor, that you will hit for less and have less hp if magic materia is equipped. And likewise, Barret and Tifa will never become as good mages as Cloud or Red XIII. That's not really debatable.

In VI, however, the first espers you get have the opportunity to (permanently) teach your characters -ara class spells. To even use your own example - I usually give Cyan Ramuh for the +1 Stamina bonus. Despite your assurance that giving such characters magic is pointless, it doesn't change the fact that for a good point in the game Cyan tears through multiple enemies at a time with Thundara.

Now let me point out one thing out before I get accused of this. I never said VI's system is better than VII. IMO I like both systems and I feel they are about equal. In fact, I find that both of them suffer from the same problems (overpowered abilities, mediocre difficulty, and a very abusive customization system). I just feel that VI's system caters to my personal taste better. Personally. I'm a job class person so V and FFT are my faves

Magic is overpowered in VI, in fact VI probably has the most overpowered magic in the series hands down. As you indirectly pointed out, most of the magic probably does 2x to 4x more damage than any other FF. VI is still the only game where Osmosis is actually a very good spell. Because of this, even loser mages like Cyan and Locke can appear powerful. Yet I feel at end game it becomes apparent that using Cyan as a mage is counterproductive unless you raised his magic stat a ton. Yeah, he's probably doing serious damage with -aga spells and Flare, but he doesn't hold a candle to Terra or Relm whose magic power almost guarantee's an instant win.

I feel VI has a stronger emphasis on stats than VII yet I will also agree that the overpowered magic makes diversity (i.e. not turning everyone into a mage) an issue in VI as well. I just feel VII does the same thing.

The only point I made about weapons was that it distinguished characters, each one had their own distinct weapon class, while many of them, such as swords and daggers overlap in VI. And there are more than "rare" instances when ranged weapons make a difference - we could go down the list of fliers, or settle for the fact that such a large quantity of battles have front and back rows of enemies.

I'm just saying that I felt IV did a better job utilizing the ranged weapons than VII cause its fairly easy to kill the front lines in a single round making the back row a minor inconvenience. Throw in your whole parties ability to cast magic and I feel ranged weapons are a moot point in diversity in VII. In IV it was rather common to have some powerful mage like monster in a back row spamming powerful spells like Bio and Blaze while being protected by powerful meat shields. I never saw VII really pull this off cause it was fairly easy to either wipe out all the monsters at once or your party can tear the front row apart. Hell the enemies in the back row were never annoying enough to warrant "must kill first" status like they would in pre-VI FFs.

I gotta flip your own argument on you on this one. Not only did I provide the -ara example, but at the end of the game, any character with -aga spells are going to do some damage, simple and plain. And, ironically, in VI the stat differences are not big enough to hinder Terra's ability as a warrior. Give her any sword as it becomes available and she'll probably rock with it. Not as much as Edgar, but still. And Locke does get a good flux of unique weapons all throughout the game - I know this is getting a little too technical, just thought I'd throw it in

Its fine, as I stated above, I don't think VI's combat system is superior or without the same faults VII has. I just prefer it over VII's system. I feel stats become a bit a more important by end game but like you pointed out, VI is not without its broken weapons and abilities. One could argue that giving Terra a blade is a bit of a handicap though, considering her magic stat is so smurfing high, she can do max damage with -ara spells in her trance state against multiple enemies. She's a good fighter but she can do more as a mage imo. Seriously, I feel the games have about the same level of difficulty and both have highly abusive systems that only hardcore fans can appreciate cause they make 98% of battles in the games a joke.

If I want challenge in an FF, I generally don't play any game after V with the possible exception of XII. VI-X are all fairly easy imo with IX being the most challenging out of that group.

Actually, there are plenty of weapons throughout the game that calls for the player to make a choice, whether it be little to no materia slots for higher ATK, or the growth issue. Just because you only remember the Yoshiyuki doesn't mean they're not there.

Granted I may be exaggerating (you also forgot the Powersoul and Motor Drive ) but I feel most players either stuck to materia growth or number of slots. Having higher ATK, at the cost of available options for combat seems like a boring choice. Its like using berzerkers in previous games, while potent, they make combat sorta boring. From reading other peoples thoughts about RPGs I notice "options in combat" tends to be high on the list concerning combat systems. Its why FFI and IV get so much hate cause they are the most limiting systems in the series. I do in fact experiment with weapons in VII but I feel the choices don't add to much in the end. I felt III, IV, and V did a better job considering how often weaknesses needed to be exploited in order to win battles.

While I agree with, and definitely use, the principles of comparative advantage you talk about on every playthrough, I have to say you're really exaggerating here. Maybe you honestly believe this, but I've played VI plenty of times, and I just can't agree at all. Cyan and Edgar will be killer tanks throughout the game, no matter what espers you give them.

While I agree most of VI's cast starts off blatantly powerful and the stat system may be a waste cause overall, most maintain uber-ness throughout the game. Yet, if you are seeking efficiency and specification, its there, you just need to care about it. Once again this is a difference in taste.

I guess the best way to explain would be to take Aerith and twink her into an even more powerful mage through clever use of materia, equipment, and stat sources. Most would argue its pointless (ignoring the fact she leaves permanently after the first disc) cause Aerith already starts off as the games strongest mage and even trying to nerf her magic abilities will only knock her down into second place for the most part. Yet the joy of customizing her into a better and more efficient mage is fun for the most part. That in essence is what I enjoy about VI's Esper/Relic system. In the long run its pointless but I do gain some enjoyment out of it.

I was simply referring to the casual gamer being able to play through it without having to focus too much on numbers or dragging him/herself through boring dungeons which look exactly like the last one (It got old really fast in VI). Of course VII is hardly the most in-depth RPG battle system, but the quest for efficiency is there if you desire it, and I myself fine tune my strategy, even just a little, each time I play.

I felt VI offered enough to prevent grinding in the game, half the cast is broken so leveling them up or teaching them magic is a moot point. With such a large cast, it inspires the player to play through a few more time trying out different parties and during these playthroughs, I feel the player begins to experiment more with the games customization system. As for dungeons, I never felt they were a problem in VI. In fact I enjoy the multi party puzzle dungeons quite a bit in VI so the two most painfully long dungeons (3 in the GBA version) at least have a bit more going for them.

At least I never got seriously lost cause I didn't realize the doorway to the next area was this poorly drawn black glob that mysteriously looks like part of the background. Or a light fixture that looks like a doorway is actually just part of the background. I got lost so many times my first time through VII (Mt. Nibel, Temple of the Ancients, Ice Cavern, and the Glacier). By the time I got out of the 1st disc my party level was in the high 60s

Dude, that's like saying only jobs matter in III or V, or only equipment and spells matter in II, since the characters are even less distinct in those games than they are in VII. Actually, that's exactly what it's supposed to be, and I think all of those games have interesting systems, so it's hardly a fault at all. Just another cop out to bash the game.

Two things, One, it seriously doesn't matter who you take to fight Sephiroth at the end. Cloud has to be there but your other two party members don't matter cause it comes down to their materia set up cause by end game I feel stats are a moot point in VII. Just like in VI, VIII, and possible XII, it doesn't matter cause it comes down to how you set the party up it doesn't matter who you bring. If your strategy involves a heavy hitter and two mages, it doesn't matter who you is in your party cause the systems allow you to set up any character fulfill the strategy and differences are only minor.

Second, I just felt the limitations that earlier games had in conjunction with their systems offered more careful planning than later games. The fact of the matter is, unless you over level, certain classes and combinations just don't work in earlier titles. You cannot get through FFII and III without at least one character specializing in magic. You had to build teams to work for you and the fact of the matter is certain combos are infinitely better than others. The thing about the job class system is that every class has distinct strengths and weaknesses. You have to build your party in a way to exploit the strengths while covering the weaknesses.

Starting in FFVI, the game design was changed where careful planning and strategy existed but in the end was a moot point cause the systems are so open that any combination can work and any character can be changed to fulfill such roles. In fact, in VI, VII, and VIII. Your entire party can be the heavy hitter and the powerful mage and it takes little to no effort to build them that way. I blame it mostly on the nerfed difficulty. It doesn't make these games bad; in fact some are better than others in this regard. I just feel it exists in these games and when people complain about how the systems create clones, I understand where they are coming from. I hope that cleared up any confusion.

Word...

...to your mother!