THE TRUTH HURTS, BIZNATCH!
THE TRUTH HURTS, BIZNATCH!
I think Golden Sun had one of the better battle systems of RPG's. You had the 8 characters, you could swap at any time, and they all gained EXP.
FFXII was alright, except they didn't all gain EXP. So while you could swap at anytime, if you lose your main 3, my other 3 basically were just put out individually so I could run away.
As for the whole level grinding thing... It should get to the point that enemies barely give enough exp to make a difference. And therefore you have to be in a harder area to gain levels anyways. You should never be at a point where you're UBER above any enemy you can face. As soon as you become masterful at killing a certain area of monsters, they should be giving negligible EXP. So you move onto the next area, and you somewhat struggle at first. This is why I'm a fan of endgame special dungeons. Stuff that you basically have to be capped to even stand a chance in, that's fun to me.
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Depends on the game. Usually the zomg enemy that's invulnerable is the one that'll give you enough EXP to gain a level in an instant. The challenge of beating the enemy for the reward is worth the pain and suffering. Of course, there are some games of ill mention where there's a stupid EXP deterioration formula after level 75. Frankly, I enjoy spending more time in the "near-invulnerability" status like MILF does. If more games had post-game options/dungeons, I'd enjoy them a hell of a lot more.Originally Posted by Roto13
I actually like silent protagonist, when it's accomplished correctly. Often, it adds humor to the game (Mario RPG), by having the hero acting out what they otherwise could say.
There's nothing satisfying about level grinding. :P Any moron can do it if they're willing to waste enough time.
Sometimes I like to level grind a bit. Often it's just to get an ability or attain a higher level, but I don't grind to 99 or to be invulnerable to an enemy.
Grinding is a pain in the ass if it's the basic principle of an entire game though, (see Dragon Quest).
Silent protagonists don't annoy me so much. Actually a lot of people don't get the point of them really. For one a lot of them just don't say anything for themselves and whenever a question is asked you are given the option how to respond, so they are not so silent after all. Other than the Half Life games where it really does seem stupid that Freeman says nothing.
15) Level Caps
I don't particularly care one way or another. I kind of like how Disgaea does it where the level cap is so ridiculous that those who want to do it can, but those who don't needn't bother.
14) Enemy Levels that Scale
This is just bad design. The idea of having a level system is so that you can get tangibly better. If enemies are always just as difficult to defeat for you even though you're supposedly improving, it just feels off. I'm a firm supporter of more dangerous areas with more potent monsters so that the experience you gain actually means something. Further, being able to level up to overcome a challenging boss is a nice opportunity to have and also can at least compensate for design errors that can make a challenging boss nigh unbeatable no matter what you do.
13) Fetch Quests
As a general rule they have a place but should be used skillfully. More on this a bit later.
12) Multi-Stage Boss Fights
It's an interesting dynamic that, if handled appropriately, can make for an exciting and challenging battle. On the other hand, if handled poorly, it can make the battle akin to swimming through heaping mounds of fecal matter. It's not a bad concept, but the execution needs to be right or it goes downhill rather fast.
11) Scripted Battles You Are Forced to Lose
I'm not necessarily averse to this storyline convention (I love Super Robot Wars, and they make liberal and generally decent use of this trope during earlier parts of the game), but it has to be handled appropriately. Obvious visual and storyline cues, things like that. I like what Soul Nomad & the World Eater did, where the boss was level 1,000 when you were about level 12 and the mission requirement was "Be defeated by the World Eater." Obviously it doesn't need to be taken to that extreme, but it is important to have it established. It also makes the eventual defeating of the boss that much more satisfying.
10) Bosses That Are Immune to All Status Effects
Agreed, if you have status effects make them some applicable part of gameplay. This is less-so for SRPGs where the flow of battle can make them worthwhile, if handled appropriately.
9) The Destruction of a Home Village
Basically agreed, see below.
8) Amnesia
Basically agreed, see below.
7) Overly Complicated Puzzles that Require a Strategy Guide
Oh man. Challenging puzzles with enough in-game information to understand how to solve them: good. A game needn't hold your hand through it, but having enough hints to put it together is requisite for it to work. On the other hand, a puzzle that requires you to know what the programmer was thinking is neither fair nor fun.
6) Weapons that Can Only be Received After Meeting Very Specific, Secret Parameters
So long as you can actually have some clue about how to do this in game, sure. If there is absolutely nothing in the game about getting it, however, I call BS.
5) Overly Chatty Cutscenes During a Cataclysmic Moment
Basically agreed, see below.
4) Constant Party Switching
I don't mind too much if everyone still levels at the same rate.
3) Boys Up Front, Girls in the Back
This really shouldn't ever be the case for any game anymore.
2) The Nearly Invulnerable Random Encounter Enemy
Basically agreed, see below.
1) The Plot Starring an Angsty, Unassuming Teenage Hero Who Will Save the Universe
Oh god yes. See below.
Rant on RPGs: Basically, I can't really enjoy many JRPGs and even some American RPGs anymore. Traditional turn-based combat just generally isn't all that fun (SRPG combat on the other hand is still good due to the added strategy layer), and when you throw in the cliche'd to hell medieval fantasy that seems to comprise the market, the draw of interesting characters and plots (which were what made RPGs interesting to me in the first place) suddenly fades rather rapidly. I wouldn't mind as much if the gameplay were interesting (Action RPGs, if well executed, are quite entertaining) but as it stands the RPG genre just doesn't have anything to really hold my interest more. The genre just seems so lacking in originality and interesting design choices that it can't really hold my attention anymore, which is sad because I've been a long-time RPG player.
I'm not going to comment on everything said by Roto, but I will talk about a few in a quick paragraphs. The reason RPGs seems so tedious and repetitive nowadays is because it is. Thing's like Multi-Stage Boss Fights, and Overly Complicated Puzzles that Require a Strategy Guide are really not the problem. But when you've played them again and again and again in so many different platforms, of course your gonna become bored.
That's exactly why some people love to see difference in a RPG's storyline no matter how crappy the rest of the game is. The genre of RPG's need a makeover. And I'm not talking about the "Change it's entire look" makeover. I'm talking about the "Takeout what needs to be Taken out and Renew the old in a different flavor" makeover.
Level Caps:
I don't really have a problem with this. This is generally how Suikoden worked and honestly, I like it cause it keeps challenge up. I will say I don't care for games that have a level cap of over 100 to 9999 while the game can be completed by lv 60 :rolleyes2 It just always feels like the best parts are for the optional content while the main story is just a chore you need to complete to get to the good gameplay.
Enemy Levels that Scale
I don't really have a problem with this but I apparently don't play too many games that do this. VIII is the only one I can think of that did this and I always had mixed feelings, it was nice at first but seemed unnecessary cause even enemies leveling with you could not stop the ungodly broken aspects of the Junction system.
Actually, FFT did this as well but they did it stupidly with only random encounters gaining levels while story battles didn't. Luckily, the system was designed in a way where even low levels can still kill you if they use the right abilities *Charm anyone?*
Fetch Quests
Hell yes, I hate these cause they always seem stupid and forced. Being sent off to find a specific item is fine but when you are sent out with a shopping list I have problems. I also hate Secret of Mana for the Sage Jock quest, where the asshole pretended to be an assistant and sent you all across the goddamn world looking for him...
Multi-Stage Boss Fights
I actually enjoy these quite a bit. Granted I do agree they are a little old and I usually expect every final boss encounter to be a multi-boss fight but it doesn't change my enjoyment of them. Of anything, I miss normal multi-stage boss battles like Xenogears had. XII at least gave me that.
Scripted Battles You Are Forced to Lose
I generally don;t have a problem with these. See ljkkjlcm9's post for my reasoning.
Bosses That Are Immune to All Status Effects
I don't mind final bosses but XII has spoiled me and now I expect more bosses to have status weaknesses besides slow. Seriously, you can do so much more if you build a battle around using status magic wisely and normal encounters are too easy for it to be with them exclusively.
The Destruction of a Home Village
This has not been done recently but I never liked it to begin with. Ten years ago this writer may have had a point but lately its all but gone. I do agree I don't want to see a revival of it anytime soon.
Amnesia
This has rarely been done good. Xenogears and to an extent Vagrant Story are about the only two that were well done imo. I usually only see this cliche when concerning female heroines with special powers that are the key to destroying the world...
Overly Complicated Puzzles that Require a Strategy Guide
Temple of Time? Screw that, the water temple was way more difficult to figure out. Puzzles are a rare breed in RPGs today, outside of Zelda, very few even bother and those that do put little effort into it. The Lufia 1 and 2 and Wild ARMS 1 and 2 are about the only games I can remember having overly complex puzzles that offer no hints and require a strategy guide to complete. Its an irrelevant complaint in imo
Weapons that Can Only be Received After Meeting Very Specific, Secret Parameters
XII is the first game to pull this in 15 years and people get all pissy about it :rolleyes2 Yes I feel there should at least be an in-game hint and yes, having it tied to not opening 4 specific chests was a cheap shot but I don't have the Zodiac Spear and missing it has not destroyed my enjoyment of this game.
Overly Chatty Cutscenes During a Cataclysmic Moment
Yes and no...I'll admit, I would like more scenes with action and no words, and yes, villains giving super ass long speeches as they lie there dying do get on my nerves. Yet its been a long time since I've seen this in an RPG.
Constant Party Switching
I don't mind when its done right... XII didn't bother me cause I built my party with each character fulfilling a certain role so my levels are fairly consistent but I know many people didn't so I can see it being a problem. X gave every character a role but in order to gain levels you had to use them in battle and the game gives you more xp with more characters used in your party. This led to me constantly bringing out characters to do simple actions and transformed half my encounters into annoying grindfests.
Yet in Persona 3, you had to switch out your whole party for strategy cause even powerful characters become a hindrance due to elemental weaknesses so you are generally coerced into using party members you generally wouldn't use and due to a nice level cap system, the unused party members leveled quickly with your main party.
Boys Up Front, Girls in the Back
Its still prevalent but the genre has been changing this ever so slightly. It has gotten better for the most part.
The Nearly Invulnerable Random Encounter Enemy
Once again I feel this is not as common as it used to be. Still I actually enjoy this and find no harm in it. If you are stupid enough to farm Metal Slimes in DQ when you are too underleveled to do so then that's your own damn fault.
The Plot Starring an Angsty, Unassuming Teenage Hero Who Will Save the Universe
Oh, god yes! This is the only one that is still constant and by god it seems to get worse with each new game. I know they are supposedly marketing to their target audience but they need to realize that a) making them clueless dip-s is not the way to make them endearing and b0 just cause they are older doesn't mean that people can't relate to them. Solid Snake, Kratos, and Dante are hugely popular and are all older adults. If the character is compelling age really shouldn't matter so you either need to start writing older characters until we get sick of it or start writing better high schoolers. Most kids their age are more interested in getting laid than saving the world.
MILF's personal #1 most hated cliche: The Silent Protagonist
I'm conflicted, I would have to agree only cause the few games I felt it was done right also happen to be games that actually gave their silent leads a personality expressed through body language and in-depth dialogue choices. Chrono, Ryu, the main Suikoden characters, and the MegaTen characters all have pretty distinct personalities expressed to the player through other means. So making them mute does seem pointless if you are going to give them a background personality.
True beauty exists in things that last only for a moment.
Current Mood: And it's been a long December and there's reason to believe. Maybe this year will be better than the last. I can't remember all the times I tried to tell myself. To hold on to these moments as they pass...
Well that was part of my point. One of the reasons it is retarded is because these characters always have to some degree characterstics. They're always going to have to response to shocking things. They're going to have to respond to questions (Suikoden is a good example of this). They're not silent, so why make them silent? As I said, they are not blank slates. Far better to do something like Mass Effect where your character is a character distinct from you, but you shape them according to your choices during the game.
That's actually one of the few things I dislike about Suikoden.The problem is, for me, that it adds even more to the inevitable linearity of JRPGs. Not only is where you go constrained, but even what you do there. The whole thing just gets to be too much hand-holding, in essence. There's rarely any danger.
Mario was "silent" in Super Mario RPG, and it was one of the most glorious things ever lol
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I agree on the level caps after I heard that some games wouldn't allow your characters to be maxed out, even at the end of the game is ridiculous to me. I should be able to get all my characters to lvl 99 like I have in FFIX. It's not like it's extremely easy to over level, because the process can be tedious fighting the same ol enemie over and over, I normally wouldn't have the patience for that.
For the scripted battles that you're supposed to lose, I don't mind them as much, but I had to admit that in IX, it could have been done better and like he said, you could just sit there and let them kill all your characters and it would be a game over, the ony thing they need to do to fix that is to allow you to just sit there and die if you please.
I am unsure about the amnesia as I've only played one RPG with that cliche and that was FFVII. Also for the home being destroyed by a village i could care less for that one as well, I don't see it much and it hardly bothers me. Fetch quests can also be boring especially if you've been asked to constanly do them. I can't quite remember one that bothered me most recently though.
15) Level Caps
im not fussed really
anyone who power levels for no reason sucks anyway
14) Enemy Levels that Scale
i prefer that you have to hunt out the stronger ones, and the weak ones stay weak, but i s'pose it adds fun
13) Fetch Quests
they should just die
12) Multi-Stage Boss Fights
i dont care
if a normal human didnt mutate into some random creature that has no resemblance to the original person, in the final fight, then i would think there was something wrong with the game!
11) Scripted Battles You Are Forced to Lose
i dont use items
ever
so it doesnt matter
10) Bosses That Are Immune to All Status Effects
it sucks, but it would make it too hard
9) The Destruction of a Home Village
this DOES suck
8) Amnesia
I agree that only KotOR does this well
7) Overly Complicated Puzzles that Require a Strategy Guide
yeah, these are stupid
or where they require an item that you have never seen, and its hidden on the side of the screen at the starting area.
or, like in Koudelka, you cant finish the game cause you didnt get an item out of a fountain (so you didnt actually know it was there)
6) Weapons that Can Only be Received After Meeting Very Specific, Secret Parameters
useless
5) Overly Chatty Cutscenes During a Cataclysmic Moment
most dialogue in games these days sucks anyway, so i dont care
4) Constant Party Switching
i only care if im going for 100%
3) Boys Up Front, Girls in the Back
that doesnt matter
you need a mage dont you?
2) The Nearly Invulnerable Random Encounter Enemy
who care?
1) The Plot Starring an Angsty, Unassuming Teenage Hero Who Will Save the Universe
put it this way, the only main characters i have ever liked are Terra (Locke sucked) and Squall. the rest are either immature tits (Tidus) or just darn right annoying (Cloudsrevolutionarily interestingstupidly boring amnesia story)
Final Note:
Please GOD Square, go back to random battles.
we all got stressed with them back in the day, but i would do anything to get away from the boring and stupid battle system of FFXII. it just lost any kind of excitement that a battle could have!
Last edited by I Don't Need A Name; 08-10-2008 at 08:41 PM.
Anyone who says they want random battles because they hated Final Fantasy XII's battle system really, really doesn't know what they're talking about.
To add about the bolss immunity to everything. I think that makes it okay if it's a final or optional boss, other than that it could be a bit fustrating and it would put more emphasis on those abilities.
by that, i meant i want random battles back in Final Fantasy
i just think it makes you lose the involvement you had in the old games.
it works in a game like Kingdom Hearts or KotOR, I just dont like it in Final Fantasy
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