Overratedroth.

[champagne supernova]

It is stated in the Ultimania Omega so there's no doubt. His meaning of life excluding absorbing life energy and so becoming the most powerful being in teh universe is to take revenge on Cloud because he has "damaged" his pride.

I don't read the Ultimania's. And if that is in the Ultimania, I am glad I don't. Because if that is Sephiroth's motive, then he just became lame.

Yeah, Kefka did take his time destroying the World. But then again, Kefka is completely nuts.

But Sephiroth was going to do the same thing. He just got defeated. And he would have wiped out everything too. I just think that (assuming that motive is not true) for Sephiroth to destroy a Planet so he can become powerful is more villainous than destroying a Planet because he doesn't believe in the existence of life.

But as I said, what it comes down to is merely personal preference. Sephiroth's villainy is more personal. And Sephiroth is better set up in the game as a villain. There is a build-up to him. He's mentioned almost from the beginning in casual conversation. An aura is made around him. Then he (well who they think is him at the time) comes into the Shin-Ra building and kills almost everyone. This is before the player even knows what he looks like.

Then when they do introduce him, you almost feel sad for him. When he says he doesn't know what a hometown feels like because he doesn't have one. And then goes on about how Professor Gast is no longer around. It makes him feel completely alone. Then he finds out his heritage and the lies that he was told and he loses it, and then his villainy begins. Kefka doesn't quite have the build up.

Sephiroth may have needed to toy with Cloud's mind a bit, but he did do it fairly often. And trying to make Cloud kill Aerith was not necessary from his point of view. So, there was a deliberate effort to ruin Cloud's head.

So, what I think we do agree on is that Sephiroth was handled better in the game as the villain. Stylistically-wise!

[Sephiroth]

Lol, "he just became lame". That was him 1997 and that's him today. Most of the things which are written in the Ultimania Omega can be seen by just watching Sephiroth in Final Fantasy VII and reading the dialogues properly. Those who don't, just misunderstand it and write theories like "JENOVA controls Sephiroth." just because they don't understand the meaning of "JENOVA's reunion and Sephiroth's will...brilliant!".

In Final Fantasy VII you were able to see how confident Sephiroth is and so of course it is written in the Ultimania Omega.

Oh and by the way - the japanese Final Fantasy VII is way more clear. But that doesn't mean the translation is so bad as most people say. Because it is not. But the original is better - with its extra scenes when Cloud runs out of Tifa's bar at the beginning of the story and says he wants to seek Sephiroth because he thinks he is still out there, et cetera.

[champagne supernova]

Seriously is that in VII or is this some Advent Children rubbish? I kind of shy away from all this. I watched AC and read the scripts for Crisis Core and Dirge of Cerberus. Seriously, they need to confiscate whatever they're smoking at Squenix. Although AC was quite cool. Not very good, but there were some cool moments in it. And it actually made a lot more sense than Dirge of Cerberus (especially) or Crisis Core.

[Sephiroth]

If you don't accept the Compilation then you cannot complain about anything. The Compilation is Final Fantasy VII itself and not only Final Fantasy VII"-1". And even though there are some things which were changed and of course things like "Sephiroth wants to absorb everything like JENOVA" is more clear after Advent Children because in Final Fantasy VII-1 he obviously just wants to absorb Gaia most of his character was already developed in Final Fantasy VII-1.

And Sephiroth's overconfidence is understandable. He needs to have a "weakness".

- He is the most powerful character in the Final Fantasy VII universe (and so of the Final Fantasy X universe because we all know it is the same universe)
- He has the strongest will of all characters
- Because of his will he can partly control the lifestream - he is the evil part of the lifestream if you want to call him that - and uses the magic he can summon with the lifestream with such a destructive power no one else can because his willpower allows him to absorb the knowledge and memories in the lifestream and so of course he becomes stronger and stronger
- He is the best swordsman of all and uses a Nodachi like no one else can use it because Nodachis can only be used with the Iai-Do Style and he uses it like he wants it to use
- He can come back over and over again because of his will power combined with the ability of the Reunion

Et cetera.

With such power I would be overconfident as well. Of course he is proud of that power and Sephiroth himself says he thought he was something special since he was a little child. But experiencing why he is something special was the first surprise and then being defeated by Cloud was too much surprise during one week.

[champagne supernova]

Jenova Project G? Jenova Project S? Genesis? Angeal? They had nothing to do with VII. The writers at Squenix needed something to write about, so they passed the opium pipe around. Seriously, Crisis Core was such a wasted opportunity. They had one of the most popular villains in any gaming series, who had very little backstory, but instead they decide to create a whole lot of other characters. Why not look at Sephiroth's rise to a hero in Wutai? Or some of his & Zack's adventures before Nibelheim? Let the character's see what Sephiroth the man was like before he found out the truth about his origins. No, seriously wasted opportunity from a story point-of-view. Although the game may have been fun.

[Sephiroth]

I love it how people just read the part they want to read and ignore the rest. Exactly that behaviour is the reason why almost no one knows the story of Final Fantasy VII. I have already mentioned things were changed. You don't have to write it after I have written it. I know Genesis and Angeal are no old characters.

And you are not completely right.

JENOVA Project S is THE JENOVA Project of Final Fantasy VII-1.

They just gave it the extra letter and added some details.

And you complain about new things but you say you want to see something about Zack's adventure or Sephiroth as hero? For this they would have to show new things as well.

I don't understand how much sense this makes. You want new things but you don't want them. Or is it just because of the new characters?

[champagne supernova]

Yeah, I know Jenova Project S is Sephiroth's project. Crisis Core is silly to me because of Genesis and Angeal. Why would there suddenly be another Jenova project that is not mentioned ONCE in the original VII. Or an invasion of monsters that again, is not mentioned ONCE in the original VII. If you're going to do a prequel, make sure it doesn't interfere with what you already have IMO.

So yeah, Crisis Core revolved around Genesis and Angeal, and not around Zack and Sephiroth. Which is why it lost an opportunity. And then added silliness. Which is why I think it's silly.

Hope that clarifies what I want

[Sephiroth]

I agree with you that Crisis Core could have had more special moments like with Sephiroth. Especially because the most important moment of Crisis Core, the CRISIS CORE, the moment when Sephiroth became the villain was only shown as DMW scene - the moment when he found and read Doctor Gast's false Documents about JENOVA being a Cetra so that he thought he would be a Cetra as well.

But there were many good Sephiroth and Zack moments. In the DMW as well. So Crisis Core is a very good prequel. It is a prequel with Zack as protagonist, not Sephiroth.

But another moment which I miss is the moment when you are sitting in the truck with Sephiroth and Zack is nervous because Sephiroth is his idol like Angeal is. The moment with the Dragon. This could have been a boss battle. Zack can't defeat the dragon, he gets hit by a Flamethrower and is pushed back in front of the truck.

FMV scene.

It is raining. You see Zack in front of the truck and the dragon. The back door of the truck gets opened and you see some black leather boots getting out on the ground, then it zooms up to the black leather coat and the lower part of Sephiroth's face. Sephiroth faces the Dragon. It attacks him but Sephiroth is not impressed. Sephiroth defeats the dragon. He helps Zack to stand up. They return to the truck and drive to Nibelheim.

End of FMV scene.

Such things would have been cool.

But even without them Crisis Core is good.

And of course things like the Genesis invasion are not mentioned. ShinRa does not even mentioned what really has happened during the Crisis Core. It is all because of ShinRa's lies. They lie and so you can explain why some things are not mentioned. I mean - Genesis and Angeal were claimed to be dead like ShinRa wrote in their newspaper. And they were not even close to being as popular and famous as Sephiroth was and still is - in the world of Final Fantasy VII itself.

EDIR@VeloZero: That just shows me you ignore the truth about what really happens in Final Fantasy VII and for you only your interpretation is important. But notice - the truth has already existed in Final Fantasy VII 1997 and interpretating an existing truth is nonsense, because it is how it is. But you don't understand that Final Fantasy VII itself already tells most of it. And if you say you like the "original Final Fantasy VII", then you like it with all its official truths and not with your interpretation.

[VeloZer0]

Ah yes, now I remember why I don't come into the FFVII forum anymore.

Champagne, you seem to be a lot like me and don't like to acknowledge the Ultimania or Compilation. Though I think these things are disappointing and choosing to ignore them enables me to retain my love for the original game you have to accept that the mess that got created is all official. There isn't any way you can argue against the ret-con and other stuff using source material from the original game. By staying true to the original game we are essentially no different than the people who were making up and believing crackpot speculations of the original game.
Though writing all every non game source does make the lore more enjoyable to some (like me) it should be realized that it falls into the same category as just making stuff up because you like it better that way.

Which as I said, is the reason I don't usually come into this forum anymore.

[champagne supernova]

Ah yes, now I remember why I don't come into the FFVII forum anymore.

Champagne, you seem to be a lot like me and don't like to acknowledge the Ultimania or Compilation. Though I think these things are disappointing and choosing to ignore them enables me to retain my love for the original game you have to accept that the mess that got created is all official. There isn't any way you can argue against the ret-con and other stuff using source material from the original game. By staying true to the original game we are essentially no different than the people who were making up and believing crackpot speculations of the original game.
Though writing all every non game source does make the lore more enjoyable to some (like me) it should be realized that it falls into the same category as just making stuff up because you like it better that way.

Which as I said, is the reason I don't usually come into this forum anymore.

Just pretend they never existed! And when we played, they didn't.

[Clo]

I'm with champagne supernova. I want to jump in my handy dandy time machine and wipe out the Ultimania and the Compilation. A fun videogame that came out in 1997 didn't need this.

I played the game in 1997 before any of this existed. It all seems like "how much can we make up to keep this going and make a little more money" to me.

This is all slightly off-topic though. So! I agree that Sephiroth had really good build up. Awesome observation! Kefka really didn't have that, though his character seemed better. Build up matters, though.

[Sephiroth]

Both Kefka and Sephiroth had extra information 1994 and 1997. You just didn't know. Kefka is mentioned in the Ultimania Omega of Final Fantasy VI.

So too bad for people who don't understand Square doesn't write everything after the stories or people who just don't read the informations you get properly/like the should be understood.

Final Fantasy = Square. With all of its informations. And nothing else.

[Clo]

Both Kefka and Sephiroth had extra information 1994 and 1997.

I think you're missing a preposition in there. So... uh? Okay. This is not an argument we need to get into on this thread, this whole validity of the Compilation whatever.

Subjectivity makes this argument virtually useless, unless we all want to pop blood vessels and get banned.

[Sephiroth]

No it doesn't. In topics about an existing truth subjectivity itself is completely useless. There are things where an own opinion is great. But if you say "No, gravity does not exist." your opinion is just wrong and nothing else.

And if Square decides this and that to be fact in Final Fantasy this and only this is the truth. But in topics about "What is Final Fantasy VII's Promised Land?" your opinion cannot be wrong because Square themselves said "We want the fans to have their own opinion about the Promised Land and what it really is." - for things like this they have not decided what fact is or not.

It is not the fan who decides what the story is. It is the creator of the story. The fan only tries to understand it. But that doesn't mean he/her is right. It is possible. But he/her doesn't have to be right.

It is not like I would write here "Rinoa is Ultimecia because she has white wings which shows her good side and Ultimecia has black wings which should show her dark side.". I write: "Square says: ...".


"My point is, they can throw anything out there, just like we can. That's why I like to think that it doesn't exist, like many people do. (That, and the thousands of movies and game prequels/sequels)."

You can think that, of course. However the difference is that you don't own Final Fantasy so what they say is right and yours is not as long as it differs from them.

[Crop]

It is not the fan who decides what the story is. It is the creator of the story. The fan only tries to understand it. But that doesn't mean he/her is right. It is possible. But he/her doesn't have to be right.

This is why I hate Square even more. I like the speculation, guessing and debates that take place when trying to decide something about FFVII, it continues to make the game fun over a decade after its release.
But Square have pretty much tried to answer everything about it, cutting off all theories from the fans. Everything I could come up with, you'd probably say "No, Square said...". By that reasoning, if Square had said Barret baught his gun arm from Sephrioth who became a crack dealer after falling into the lifestream, you'd just take it as word of law.

My point is, they can throw anything out there, just like we can. That's why I like to think that it doesn't exist, like many people do. (That, and the thousands of movies and game prequels/sequels).