Yes, because Kiros pretty much says it and there are a number of signs and dialogue in the game to confirm it. Whereas Griever has one incredibly ambiguous scene that I feel within context was meant to be a symbol of Squall which made sense cause his consciousness was within Rinoa at the time. Even if Rinoa can't remember it cause of memory loss or being unconscious, Squall was there in spirit, yet he says nothing. Also, Squall and Laguna's relationship is intriguing, but not actually important to the plot, its indirectness can be forgiven cause its actually irrelevant to the plot, whereas the Griever issue sounds like a significant plot element if it saved Rinoa's life and eventually caused her to be R=U. That's not a plot element you leave minor breadcrumbs for only a select few to catch onto, that's a game changer and I feel only an amateur or a complete pretentious douche of writer would pull.Originally Posted by Felixrush
My real question here, is why does Squall have a ring when he always wears gloves?
That I did, but considering we know that Ellone's powers work in real time(every Dream sequence is followed up by one not participant, usually Rinoa, mentioning the characters had been out for a good chunk of time, and yet Squall is only bale to experience very small parts of Laguna's life), means that Rinoa was most likely not able to see a good chunk of her memory, Ellone pretty much brought her back immediately so its very unlikely Rinoa saw anything significant. Even if she did, its surprising it goes completely unmentioned by her. As soon as the ordeal is over, Rinoa never mentions anything concerning her brief moment in time in Adel's past. Once again, if this was meant to be a significant plot element, I feel it would have been elaborated on much more than just one line of dialogue and then forgotten completely.She would obviously have to have seen Adel's memories to even know she was inside a younger Adel. You contradicted yourself here.also, here is the entire scene of Adel in Lunatic Pandora. No mention of memories whatsoever, just that Ellone sent Rinoa and Ultimecia into a younger Adel she knew, so Ultimecia could start Time Compression.
If they were often incorrect, then I feel you could give more than one example, especially one that the fan-translators themselves found and later corrected. The other issue here, is that we know VIII has translation errors and localization changes of its own, so its not like we can even use the games own script as absolute truth either since by your definition its just as faulty.Ultimania's have often been incorrectly translated. Such as FF7's compilation info. The fan translation stated that Sephiroth was 'the strongest' FF villain, and later retracted that statement stating they were incorrect and that he was simply the strongest in the planet he resided in. Therefore, it's better to take these 'translations' with a grain of salt instead of complete truth. We honestly have no way to verify the integrity of the information or the translation of the information thereof.
There really is no reason to discount translation projects that are the result of a collaboration of die hard fans. Of anything, I feel that die hard fans are more likely to be as accurate as possible because they care more, as opposed to some guy who is simply hired for the job and this will be one of a stack of other translation projects they will be working on. Its not like SE has ever proofread or cared about the translation and localization quality of their games, as long as they are readable and bring in a profit. The series has been marred with translation errors and poor localization all the way up to FFX. So honestly, I would rather place my lot with the fans who actually have a reason to care about the accuracy of the work. Especially if they are willing to admit they are wrong, and mistranslated. I study Japanese, its a very ambiguous language based on context rather than definitive statementsm mistakes can happen.
Also, while the Sephiroth example you gave is from the Ultimania, I can elaborate further by pointing out its from the Creator Interview section of the Advent Children Ultimania (for smurf sake, I hate the Compilation , yet I know this how?) which was a statement made by Kitase if I remember correctly. The translation error comes from him saying "there is no one above Sephiroth on the Planet" and honestly, if you took this line out of the interview's context, it does sound like a definitive statement about Sephiroth in the FF mythos, but when put into the context of knowing the interviewer asked about how strong Sephy was in AC when he fought Cloud, it makes more sense that he meant in VII's world. I honestly don't see this as a major mistake. Even if Kitase did make such a statement, he's already admitted that VII is his favorite game he made, and he was the most gung-ho about the Compilation (Nomura just wanted to do a simple 30 minute video), and can only claim creative contribution on five FF titles out of 14 games total, so I don't think anyone but fans of VII would take his statement clearly. Even then, there has been other off the wall statements made by Kitase and Nojima that received such negative outcry that SE has never brought it up again, making some fans believe they have gone back on that statement.
Well yeah, Ultimecia is from the future and Ellone can't send people to the future. Also, Ultimecia was a consciousness inside Rinoa that was sent along with her. Its no different from when she would send Zell or Squall in the past, or when Squall's consciousness was sent into Rinoa's while Ultimecia was in control. Squall (and the player) didn't see Ultimecia's past,he simply heard her thoughts when she noticed him. It would be no different here.And yet, Rinoa saw Adel's past self and not Ultimecia's.
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You forgot to mention that years went by, its not like little Squall's Elle looks like grown up Ellone. So its not just the GFs here. I know I couldn't recognize people I went to high school with, if I saw them now.Squall didn't even recognize Ellone when he saw her twice in her adult form. Granted, the first time was brief, the second time however he didn't even realize 'Ellone' and 'Elle' were the same person. All he seemed to really remember was the emotional pain of Ellone mysteriously vanishing from the orphanage.
The issue here, is that other people like Quistis and Zell have completely forgotten about the orphanage yet Squall remember part of, the part that is most important.
You're avoiding my question though, if Rinoa was going to have her memories lost due to having a hidden GF on her and then have Adel's memories corrupt her personality, how is this possible if the last scene in the game clearly shows Squall and Rinoa kissing and implying a happy ever after? What happened to Squall and the others, how did they let Rinoa degenerate this badly and not done anything? I find it hard to believe that they wouldn't do anything, and this creates a major plot hole in the R=U theory that I feel should be addressed to establish this theory as canon.
The Ultimania doesn't touch on the ending (the actual VIII Ultimania doesn't even go into Adel or Ultimecia, most of the ubfo on these two come from the FF 20th Anniversary Character Ultimania, There is a scenario Ultimania as well but not much has been translated from that), mainly cause VIII's Ultimania is simply glorified strategy guide with a few extra tidbits of info (mostly on the machines and vehicles, and notable NPCs in towns) like explaining terms in the game, like what GFs are, what is a witch, and a short story by Nojima about Hyne and the origin of the Witches.And the ending of FF8 was obviously made to be interpreted openly. Why else was there a scene in which Squall continuously sees Rinoa in a repeated memory in which her face is blocked off most of the time, Ultimecia is seen briefly, before we see Rinoa in space with her helmet break apart and the Griever ring fly off into space (an event that never even happened)? Obviously, it was meant for individual interpretation. Heck, I've seen no comments about the ending from this supposed 'Ultimania' which doesn't even have an official translation and can't be verified.
Personally, I feel that witnessing an event that didn't happen in the game, right there disqualifies taking anything in the first five minutes of the ending as having significant plot value, pretty much null and void. Squall is obviously hallucinating, not getting the 2001: Space Odyssey treatment, o some kind of divine revelation. I just don't think its significant evidence. So what if it flashes an image of Ultimecia's final form for a split second that is so fast if you blinked, you would miss it, that doesn't make it significant, that makes it so obtuse, only someone really bored would pick up on it. As for her getting some airtime in the ending, its in the middle of you watching a massive collage of every cast member from every cutscene in the game. Hell the first of these flash images in the ending is of Seifer but it doesn't mean its actually significant.
I feel that Squall is simply trying to hold onto something. He's trapped in the remnants of Time Compression and needs to find something to hold onto in order to get back to his own time. Course, having spent most of the game as a loner, he doesn't have the strong emotional bonds to do this easily and simply is struggling to remember Rinoa while the warping of time and space takes its toll on his psyche. That's the reason why he flashbacks to so many events in the game, its because Squall is practically watching his life flash before his eyes. Its not until he finds his most honest feeling about Rinoa, which was when he thought she died in space, that Squall makes his connection, and what do you know, two seconds later in the video, Rinoa shows up to comfort him from the post-TC existence he found himself trapped in. That's my interpretation of the beginning sequence at least.
I feel the ending was suppose to be ambiguous but I feel it still correlates to the games theme of love and opening up to others, and I feel the end finds a bizarre way of getting a last little moment of throwing the theme into the players face. At least it sticks with you.
This is pretty much the Evangelion ending all over again, except no one is claiming that Gendo Ikari is an older Shinji who has time traveled into the past to affect the Instrumentality Project, and change the future.
Incorrect, all the Rinoa footage is simply from the cutscenes and the closest you get to "possessed Rinoa" is the FMV sequence where Rinoa tries to place the Odine Bangle on Edea. Most of the footage of Rinoa that isn't the warped Dance party intro, are just a hodge podge of the sequences from the games opening FMV to Squall rescuing Rinoa at the Garden Battle and the Sorceress Memorial. There is no footage of possessed Rinoa. Just events from the games story, that go along with the clips with other cast members. Hell, several of the scenes from the opening FMV involving Rinoa never actually happen in the game, and some like I pointed out are just other story events with new backgrounds, like the Squall/Rinoa embrace at the sunset which is based off the cutscene when Squall frees Rinoa from the cryo-freeze.Final Fantasy VIII full ending (HQ remastered) - YouTube
You quite clearly see how open the ending is right here. In fact, Ultimecia's face is the only one that stays for any significant length of time (however brief) besides Rinoa's. I also find it curious that nearly all the segments were short clips of when Rinoa was bewitched by Ultimecia apart from the clips of the friends.
I wouldn't discount Odine, he is the games premier specialist on Sorceress' and considering he spent time with Edea who does have significant knowledge on Ultimecia and was the first to mention she hails from the future. Odine uses the term "many generations", generations are a span of 30 years (give or take) but he also mentions its many, implying more than one generation in the future. The least amount of time is going to be 60, and its claimed by the most reliable sources in the game. I really can't see how much more proof is needed than that.You're missing the point. The time stated is never definite and Odine's words barely hold any weight. We never see this Junction machine she supposedly uses and the fact the Orphanage has been rebuilt and is in the same geographic location leads me to believe that the 'far' future isn't really an absurd length of time long into the future. Hell, SeeD still exists during Ultimecia's time period. You would think this organization would have long died out if it was something like 600 years into the future. Also, these assumptions aren't based on much either. If anything 'far into the future' could mean 30 years or even less.
As for the Orphanage, you forget it shorly transforms into a nightmare structure as soon as the party gets to the beach. The whole structure changes into a ghastily structure of pipes and chains, they are also moving through Time Compression itself so its very likely the Orphanage they are going through is the one of their memories as kids, which changes into reality when they reach the outskirts of Ultimecia's castle.
For the SeeD's, its all members of the Whie SeeDs, who are such a secret faction even the regular SeeDs didn't know they existed until the events of the game. I can see that kind of secretive organization lasting much longer than a mercenary force. Century old secret orders are not even uncommon in our world.
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Considering Rinoa is not involved at all in the casts childhood, I would argue her words would hold more meaning if we were debating if Ultimecia is Edea. Rinoa does not have to be in the final battle party, so her lines don't necessarly apply. I would argue that her lines are just a very poetic way of speaking her own regret and fear of death.Reflect on your...Childhood...Your sensation...Your words...Your emotions...Time...It will not wait...No matter...How hard you hold on...It escapes you...And...
Perhaps she was saying these things because time made her lose her memories?
I'd say Griever's entire existence in that fight, the junctioning, and then that quote really put up a lot of openness in the theory.
I still say Griever's existence is simply Ultimecia intimidating the party and trying to unnerve Squall, while stalling for time.
This would literally be a visual example (its literally a relationship chart), nothing you can screw up there,by translation. It outright confirms Squall and Laguna's relationship. As for fans asking, R=U is popular on the net, but from what I've gathered, its a minority. Chances are most fans wouldn't ask about it.Except, fan translations shouldn't be taken literally. If they could make a mistake in translating FF7's information about Sephiroth then I don't see why they couldn't have made mistakes here as well. Was Square Enix ever asked to confirm or deny anything by any fans? If a 'nudge, nudge - wink wink' is what you're looking for then check out Squall's story in the first Dissidia, in which Ultimecia's equipment is a 'dark' version of Rinoa's and she asks to dance with Squall as a joke.
Her weapons are named after Rinoa's but they are not dark versions of them. Ultimecia borrows a lot from other elements in the game. She has Pulsar Shockwave, most of her attacks are named with a Knight motif, her Ultimate Attack is a play on Squall's Renzoken, even being called No Heart as opposed to Lionheart. Squall also confirms to Ultimecia that he has to go back and meet up with someone (a reference to his famous promise to Rinoa). Once again, no one blinks about this as though we should allude that Ultimecia is Rinoa. Hell Ultimecia states her only goal with Time Compression was to create a world of frozen time where everyone would worship her as a god.
Yet the real issue here is that Ultimecia isn't the only character whose weapon set-up is either wrong or a reference to another character in Dissidia, most of the villains have altered weapon set-ups since they were never confirmed in the original. Terra uses Rods and Staffs despite them being one of the few types of weapons she can't equip in VI, Kefka's Ultimate weapons are Flutes and Harps despite the weapon type not being in VI, all of Tidus' weapons are actually Wakka's weapons, and a good chunk of the specialty weapons are made up. I'd say they wanted to include Rinoa in some capacity into the game much like Wakka and the best way is to incorporate their weapons.
I'm mostly trying to stay open to the idea she may be closer to their time, but I do believe Ultimecia is from a distant future by a few hundred years.If Ultimecia lived so long into the future as you claim it would be more logical to presume that history forgot him. Anyway, the problem isn't the junctioning itself but the obvious symbolism. Rinoa can't really be a 'sacrifice' if she survived.
Sacrifice doesn't mean it has to be killed, but really, she was technically sacrificed by Seifer, since Adel is slowly killing Rinoa and is only prevented from doing so by your parties intervention.
If we're going by symbolism though, Greiver is said to come from Squall's mind in the Scan. Assuming she didn't create Griever in thin air but simply summoned him, wouldn't the Scan info imply Griever is with Squall and not Rinoa? Especially when the game states that GFs rest in a section of a persons bran which causes the memory loss? The theme itself that plays when Ultimecia junctions with Griever is Maybe I'm a Lion, which the title clearly points to Squall whose symbol is the lion.
Going back to Rinoa being Junctioned to Adel, she's not really in a cross figuration, of anything, she's being worn like a necklace and is more of a Y shape than anything. The other issue here is that the cross has a different meaning in Japanese than it would in Western Cultures, so its very likely the imagery is more meaningful to us than the writers and artists.
The bosses you face in her castle are simply monsters and they could have been there all the time as guardians of her fortress.If she did create them, she could have done it long before the party ever got there. She does rule the future.If that was the case then why did she make those abominations out of GFs she acquired? The ones in her castle that you can fight before facing her.
She's killing time to get Time Compression going, only in her final form do they mention she's absorbing time and space through the Scan spell. She even implies to the party when they meet that Time Compression is incomplete. I feel this is the safe bet here. Besides, if the whole point of this was to get powerful enough to avoid death, then it seems silly to me to piuck a fight with a hlaf completed spell when she could have simply ran away, and tried again later. Besides, when characters are killed in battle they get absorbed into time, and I don't think that would be going on if Time Compression was winding down. The truly mind freaky stuff doesn't even begin until after Ultimecia is killed anyway.It seemed more like Time compression was slowly desolving to me. She could've just gone into her final form and attempted to trounce the party or done it anytime before the party reached her.
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This is normal for me. You should have been here in the old days when I used to debate about FFVII. Those threads went on forever...Nah, it's all good. I just wish you hadn't wrote such long-winded paragraphs. I use to write a lot like that back at gamefaqs but later felt silly over arguing so much over video games. xD
From what I've read, Kitase is more to blame, though Nomura has been the one to deny that Sephiroth is sympathetic and should be thought of as pure evil. Nomura certainly has a hand in writing the 10th Anninversary VII Ultimania but in actuallity, he hasn't done much for the Compilation. Mostly AC and Last Order, the rest of his contribution is just character designs, but yeah, Sephiroth is an overrated villain.But yeah, no reason to get moody over video games. I suppose this discussion is rather pointless since no matter what, it seems like both of us are set in our beliefs. I honestly cannot stand Final Fantasy 'ultimanias' and 'compilations'. Tetsuya Nomura seems hellbent on turning Sephiroth into some sort of Galactus-wannabe and I never liked that.
