Any thoughts on why the direction of Final Fantasy has become... Poor?

[black orb]

>>> My wrong, FF13 is a "failed" FF7-FF8 clone..

[Mirage]

Sorry dude, that still doesn't make any sense. In what way did it attempt to clone FF7 or FF8?

Have you actually played the game?

[ShinGundam]

Sorry dude, that still doesn't make any sense. In what way did it attempt to clone FF7 or FF8?

Have you actually played the game?

Clothing and weapons? i don't know but i am sure it a stupid reason either way. If XIII is cloned from VII/VIII then what about FF1~FF6? same games because of reusing assets and engine.

[Sefie1999AD]

I didn't think FFXIII was all that bad, but I'm worried about SE's production methods. With FFs 1-10, Squaresoft released an FF every 1-2 years or so. Now their budgets are gigantic compared to the earlier FFs, they need about 5 years to produce an FF (even longer for FF Versus XIII), and the only noticeable thing that has been improved is the graphics. I'd have hoped that larger budgets + longer production times = better writing, but the storyline still could have been better in FFXIII, IMHO. While it is an enjoyable story, there's still plenty of melodrama, and the final parts felt extremely rushed. Another thing that I dislike is the way how the series is losing their identity, the features that make FFs so unique. Remove Chocoboes, Odin, Shiva and Bahamut from FFXIII, and rename the game to "Lightning's Story, Part I", and you wouldn't even know it's an FF. Many of the core RPG elements have also been removed (such as NPCs, towns, exploring, making choices etc), making the game feel more like an interactive movie, with some battle scenes. I'm glad FFXIII-2 brought some of those RPG-ish features back.

[Gregor]

The 3.5 years between XII-XIII is exactly my point. You liked 12, you didn't like 13, their record for the past two games therefore is good - can't expect everyone to like every game they put out, but it seems bad, because the wait for XIII was so bad.

X was also hailed very well, and where you may have disliked it, it has a huge following (myself included). FFXI was a very successful MMO, if you don't like MMO's that's preference. I'm not going to call Final Fantasy a "sunk" franchise because of a mediocre performance with 13.

No, you said "Immediately before it" but 3.5 years is not immediately before it. I guess we differ opinions on that as well. That's fine if you liked FFX, I did not. I thought it was very dull with boring bland characters... my opinion. I havet said it was a sunk franchise, either. I stated that the games have become poor.. Then youll probably say I liked 12, which I did... but bear with me a moment...

FFI- Started it all, jobs, monsters, magic... no real deep story but it was good!
FFII - the weakest of the FF's until we get to FFX.. (MY OPINION!) No real level up system...
FFIII - numerous jobs, able to change jobs on the fly... pretty neat.
FFIV - Pretty Deep story, great music and characters
FFV - Bartz, while not a great main character, the gameplay is there... and how about Gilgamesh?!
FFVI - Simply amazing, from great characters to music, to the Esper system.. Simply amazing.
FFVII - My personal favorite, loveable characters, great materia system, great story.. and hey you can breed your own chocobos!
FFVIII - Pretty deep plot, likeable characters, great music, only drawback is the Draw system... but I really didn't mind it.
FFIX - A fantastic throwback to oldtime FF Style! Pretty similar to FFIV in the way each character has a specific job, but the ability learning system is VERY unique!
FFX - Didn't like it. Seymour Guado.. his voice, his look.. how can you not laugh.
FFX-2 - Hated it.
FFXI - Should have been Called FFOnline (Took a long time to grind and with a job and having a real life kinda hard to enjoy it.. Main story stunk COP was decent tho)
FFXII - Was pretty good! I was pleasantly surprised...
FFXIII - No Final Fantasy Feel whatsoever... Shiva is a Motorcycle.. Yeah, enough said.
FFXIII-2 - Using a MegaMan stage select for time travel is not the way Final Fantasy should be >.>
FFXIV - Can we completely scrap this and act like it never existed.

Do you see my point? I'm not saying every FF Game is bad, I understand each one is unique... but you have to ADMIT they have dropped in quality BIG TIME from The Cecil and Kane, Cloud and Aerith Days.

I feel as your taking this personal I don't like FFX. It's just my opinion.. but it should be a fact they have dropped TREMENDOUSLY in quality.

[Gregor]

I didn't think FFXIII was all that bad, but I'm worried about SE's production methods. With FFs 1-10, Squaresoft released an FF every 1-2 years or so. Now their budgets are gigantic compared to the earlier FFs, they need about 5 years to produce an FF (even longer for FF Versus XIII), and the only noticeable thing that has been improved is the graphics. I'd have hoped that larger budgets + longer production times = better writing, but the storyline still could have been better in FFXIII, IMHO. While it is an enjoyable story, there's still plenty of melodrama, and the final parts felt extremely rushed. Another thing that I dislike is the way how the series is losing their identity, the features that make FFs so unique. Remove Chocoboes, Odin, Shiva and Bahamut from FFXIII, and rename the game to "Lightning's Story, Part I", and you wouldn't even know it's an FF. Many of the core RPG elements have also been removed (such as NPCs, towns, exploring, making choices etc), making the game feel more like an interactive movie, with some battle scenes. I'm glad FFXIII-2 brought some of those RPG-ish features back.

Exactly... FF's in the early days was 1 every 1-2 years... For example...

FF7 was 1997, FF8 was 1999, FF9 was 2000, FF10 was 2001....

And in all honesty I don't think FFXIII is a BAD game... It just does not have the FF feel to it... in my opinion, it's just not a GREAT FF game. Turning Shiva into a motorcycle killed it for me tho..

[FFIX Choco Boy]

My ideas on what make a Final Fantasy a Final Fantasy:

1. Amazing music scores. Nobuo Uematsu was a genius with high quality music. Final Fantasy IX has the best music of any game I've ever seen, and then X comes close, with VIII and VII right behind. The earlier stuff is really good, too, but not quite my taste as much. XII, XIII, X-2, and XIII-2 had good soundtracks, but not the GREAT of the other 4 I mentioned.

2. A (compelling) story that actually makes sense. Again, Final Fantasy IX, X, and VII come to mind. VIII, too, until you get to Edea's assassination, and then the entire story after that is crap. IV and V were great, too. Hell, even if the story for I wasn't compelling, it made sense, unlike XIII and XII. XIII-2 made a bit more sense than XIII, and was easier to follow, but it still had some gray areas that just make it feel strange.

3. Great characters that are intertwined with the plot. Every non-optional character in Final Fantasy I-IX is necessary for the plot except for Edward in IV. If you removed any character, the plot would either be changed drastically, wouldn't work at all, or would have a VERY hard time staying on its original path. This is untrue of X, XII, and XIII, though. I found Tidus, Vaan, Penelo, Hope, Snow, and Sazh to be completely unnecessary in their own games. Remove any of them, and sure the plot will change a little, but it will still be pretty close, and will still work(if we're assuming XII and XIII's plots actually do work).

4. Real towns and areas to explore, and not just to run through. I-IX and XII had these in abundance. X, X-2, and XIII-2 had some areas that you could really explore. XIII had none. However, I still don't really count XII in that because though you could explore all the areas, there was never once a single thing to actually find, unless you stumbled upon a rare drop/spawn out of pure luck.

5. Replayability, and being able to play with more than 1 viable strategy. I-IX were great with this, and X was pretty good with it, even if your characters were pretty specialized until pretty late in the game. XII had more of this than any other game, whereas XIII, XIII-2, and X-2 you barely had any choice in a lot of encounters. There was one specific way to beat things, and if you didn't do it, you lost.

So, overall, the only ones I think contain all of these elements are I-IX, excluding VIII. Those are what I consider Final Fantasies in my mind, with X being pretty close to the definition. I think that's why I haven't like the new ones as "Final Fantasies", but instead just liked them as "JRPGs". They don't capture the old magic, sure, but I still think they're all great games. Just not Final Fantasy worthy like the old ones.

[Bolivar]

My ideas on what make a Final Fantasy a Final Fantasy:

...

3. Great characters that are intertwined with the plot. Every non-optional character in Final Fantasy I-IX is necessary for the plot except for Edward in IV. If you removed any character, the plot would either be changed drastically, wouldn't work at all, or would have a VERY hard time staying on its original path. This is untrue of X, XII, and XIII, though. I found Tidus, Vaan, Penelo, Hope, Snow, and Sazh to be completely unnecessary in their own games. Remove any of them, and sure the plot will change a little, but it will still be pretty close, and will still work(if we're assuming XII and XIII's plots actually do work).

The FFVIII haters are going to get in on you for that one, but I see what you're saying. Pretty good post and summary if you ask me.

I do kinda agree that FFI-IX were it as far as the "Final Fantasy" Final Fantasy games. I love X and XII but I'm the first to admit XII just doesn't operate along the same lines as the other games and while I still think X is one of the best games I've ever played... Let me just put it this way, the music rocks, but it's just not the same style as previous titles, even the newer ones when they started using samples of real instruments.

[Karifean]

3. Great characters that are intertwined with the plot. Every non-optional character in Final Fantasy I-IX is necessary for the plot except for Edward in IV. If you removed any character, the plot would either be changed drastically, wouldn't work at all, or would have a VERY hard time staying on its original path. This is untrue of X, XII, and XIII, though. I found Tidus, Vaan, Penelo, Hope, Snow, and Sazh to be completely unnecessary in their own games. Remove any of them, and sure the plot will change a little, but it will still be pretty close, and will still work(if we're assuming XII and XIII's plots actually do work).

I disagree with Tidus here. While I agree that much of the storyline, specifically the pilgrimage, would largely go unchanged, the entire Jecht, Yevon and Dream Zanarkand plotline would be unconnected to the main characters. The story of DZ is a very important part of FFX and this is where Tidus shines, as well as (IMO) fully taking over as the main protagonist after the pilgrimage is over.

5. Replayability, and being able to play with more than 1 viable strategy. I-IX were great with this, and X was pretty good with it, even if your characters were pretty specialized until pretty late in the game. XII had more of this than any other game, whereas XIII, XIII-2, and X-2 you barely had any choice in a lot of encounters. There was one specific way to beat things, and if you didn't do it, you lost.

I really don't see how X-2 fits in here. I get what you mean with XIII and XIII-2, but X-2? The game gives you 6 different jobs pretty much right off the bat and you consistently get more - and all of them are viable options to face the encounters you're given. Also, I don't think XII is really that good in this aspect.

[Cloudane]

IMO the newer FFs are far from bad.

But yes I do think they've gone downhill though, and I attribute it to the departure of Sakaguchi (and Uematsu when it comes to the music)
Whether that's right or not I don't know, I recall someone claiming Sakaguchi didn't have a lot of involvement in the first place, but funny how IMO it declined just after they left.

Playing Lost Odyssey, created by their newer company Mistwalker, only served to reinforce that theory as I found it delightfully awesome.

[Fynn]

IMO the newer FFs are far from bad.

But yes I do think they've gone downhill though, and I attribute it to the departure of Sakaguchi (and Uematsu when it comes to the music)
Whether that's right or not I don't know, I recall someone claiming Sakaguchi didn't have a lot of involvement in the first place, but funny how IMO it declined just after they left.

Playing Lost Odyssey, created by their newer company Mistwalker, only served to reinforce that theory as I found it delightfully awesome.

I disagree. Having recently beaten The Last Story, which I consider good (just good though), I can't help but notice that story and character-wise (gameplay aside, since it was indeed pretty awesome) it has pretty much the same problem as FF. I mean, Zael and Calista's "relationship" was so forced and their personalities were so bland that I felt the need to vomit sometimes. Though I might have been biased, because I played it right after Xenoblade, which had a much more awesome love theme (and is, to me, the best game of all time).

The other characters are all quirky and interesting, though, so they pretty much even out the narm-enducing lead characters.

Also, the music, while incredible, is IMO comparable in quality to the soundtracks of FFXII, XIII and again, Xenoblade. So I don't think it's just about the people. Since FFs have as good soundtracks as they would have had with Ueamtsu there.

[Mirage]

Maybe this is when we all realize that we've grown up, but the stories of the game series we play have not?

Maybe it simply did not take nearly as much good writing to impress us 10 years ago as it does now.

[FFIX Choco Boy]

I disagree with Tidus here. While I agree that much of the storyline, specifically the pilgrimage, would largely go unchanged, the entire Jecht, Yevon and Dream Zanarkand plotline would be unconnected to the main characters. The story of DZ is a very important part of FFX and this is where Tidus shines, as well as (IMO) fully taking over as the main protagonist after the pilgrimage is over.

I really don't see how X-2 fits in here. I get what you mean with XIII and XIII-2, but X-2? The game gives you 6 different jobs pretty much right off the bat and you consistently get more - and all of them are viable options to face the encounters you're given. Also, I don't think XII is really that good in this aspect.

Well, without Tidus in X, there isn't a whole lot of reason to have the Dream Zanarkand storyarc. Sin/Jecht would just be a final boss in the same sense as Kuja was; just a guy who they needed to kill, and at the end redeems himself before death, somehow. And it would be through Auron instead of through Tidus.

And the reason that X-2 fits is really for the second half of the game, where you're pretty much required to go Dark Knight/Dark Knight/Alchemist, Mascot/Mascot/Mascot, or White Mage/Dark Knight/Mascot. You can't just throw a random party together and win with a good enough strategy, like you can with the other Final Fantasies. Unless you're drastically overlevelled, a party you just throw together randomly won't work, no matter the strategy you use.

[Mirage]

Without Tidus in FFX, Yuna would have sacrificed herself and a guardian to summon her final aeon, crushed Sin, then Yu-Yevon would have taken over the final aeon and the cycle would have continued.

Tidus broke the cycle, that's why he's important.

[FFIX Choco Boy]

I don't know, I think in my opinion on the story, Auron and Yuna broke the cycle. But this isn't a thread about the FFX storyline. But you should expect to find one soon