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Thread: Final Fantasy Sexism Part III: Here Come the Boobs

  1. #16
    ...you hot, salty nut! Recognized Member fire_of_avalon's Avatar
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    These were all good articles, Wes. I think most of your points were fairly salient.
    Quote Originally Posted by Locky
    I think you have to take into account the age of some of these girls. I think Rinoa is only 17 in VIII, and Quistis may be 18 I'm not sure. I think their characters are true to their age. When I was 17, I was a smurfing idiot too.

    It's really easy to point the finger and say "that's sexist because ...." but think of all the good things that the girls in Final Fantasy did achieve. You mention Tifa here in FFVII, I believe she was 20 in this game. A lot of girls at age 20 are confused about where their life is going, what's happening. In Advent Children the 'sexism' is toned waaaaay down and she's given a great portrayal.

    I'm also pretty sure, that given like 4 or 5 years, if FFVIII got a sequel or something Rinoa's personality would be completely, completely different to what it is in VIII.
    Right, well, in all of the games the majority of the main characters are young men and women, especially in the PS1 era. But they're meant to be extraordinary men and women who recognize and overcome their personal demons and personality flaws for the greater good. Squall learns that existing as an emotionless, isolated automaton robs one of purposefulness - he becomes a leader by realizing he must build relationships, maintain them, protect them and earn trust as opposed to commanding it. He grows and changes. He asserts himself as an opposite of Seifer because he forgoes desire for power and glory when he might have chosen that path as well. He comes to terms with his feelings of abandonment and learns to let people into his life. It's a powerful character change, it's a powerful story of young adulthood.

    Rinoa is static. Flighty, beautiful, dreamy. She is something to chase and obtain. She doesn't learn, she doesn't grow. Her beliefs, outlook, actions, behaviors and character remain the same. Not because she's perfect, but because she is not interested in personal growth and for the plot of the game, she has no need to. Female characters in FFVIII are used as flat foils for their male counterparts. It's this reason, not her age appropriate behavior, is why the handling of her character is sexist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Formalhaut
    I do sort of agree with Futan. There comes a point where sexism is a moot point when it comes to basics, like being saved by the evil ShinRa, or saving someone. There are certain situations where gender shouldn't really be an issue.
    Agree completely. Aerith knew the slums better than Cloud, it's a good thing she saved him! ...Wait. What? Oh. It would make more sense for Aerith to lead Cloud out of danger than it would for him to lead and protect her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bolivar
    Final Fantasy VII's developers have stated that the love triangle was written and implemented to be ambiguous, leaving it up to the player's dialogue choices to determine if one is a love interest, if Aeris is only a cherished ally, or if Tifa is just a childhood friend. Many fans have grasped onto this and commended the game for this technique.
    So then are we to ignore the storyline establishing these romantic connections? Cloud's false memories of love for Aerith that bring him closer to her or his night with Tifa under the airship? Or how about the womens' interactions with each other that establish jealousy and fear of losing Cloud to the other? I think Aerith and Tifa represent two different feminine tropes, Tifa is maternal and serves as a guide to Cloud, this is a force he needs in his life. Which is why she is willing to let the entire world go to hell just to save him. Aerith represents romantic, young, foolish love. She wants to give Cloud the world. Both suffer from the aforementioned lack of character development, but not nearly so much as the female leads in FFVIII, no, but they still exist solely to develop the male lead. Which sucks.

    The fact that you projected your own reductionist and sexist interpretation onto the relationship is another huge red flag.

    Maybe this was unintentional, but this is the modern day equivalent of "The White Man's Burden": righteous males whose patriarchal attempts to champion defenseless women by exposing wrongdoers only reveals their own condescending attitudes and sometimes comfort issues with women who are firmly in charge of their own sexuality.
    Hmm, not to inflate his ego or anything, but Wes is pretty egalitarian. As a feminist I have a different interpretation than either of you on the love triangle and I don't think I'm framing the storyline in a way that favors my argument (but of course I wouldn't think that as it's my argument) but I think there's a significant amount of evidence in characterization that defines those roles for the female leads.

    You're also confusing sexism with artistic exploitation. Sexism is the belief in the superiority of one's gender. Yes, Tifa's outfit and the slapping scene are incredibly gratuitous, but that doesn't stop her from resolving conflicts and even doing something the main character cannot, when she exhibits emotional superiority over Cloud during his consciousness story sequence.
    I agree, Tifa is a strong-willed character with more emotional depth than Cloud. Which is why she's his mother, she cares for him, guides him, protects him, will give up anything to save him. Not all stereotypes are "bad" in the sense that they portray the subject in a negative light. They're bad because they pigeon-hole the subject into a neat little package they can't grow out of.

    Also, I was pissed that my badass, bar-brawler who beats things to death with her fists got into a prisspot slapfight with another woman. That was less conflict resolution and more distracting the badguy.

  2. #17
    ...you hot, salty nut! Recognized Member fire_of_avalon's Avatar
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    Not that Wes isn't a feminist. Just don't want to slap labels on people who don't want them slapped. You go on witcho bad self, gurlfren

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    programmed by NASIR Recognized Member black orb's Avatar
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    >>> Many thanks to this thread to remind me that FF has some of the hottest videogame girls ever...

    About sexism...well, FF is just a game.. (SPOILER)who cares?
    >> The black orb glitters ominously... but nothing happens..

  4. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by black orb View Post

    About sexism...well, FF is just a game.. (SPOILER)who cares?
    The female players and the male players that think that it's wrong to see sexism used within one of their favourite jrpg series.

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    Crazy Scot. Cid's Knight Shauna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by black orb View Post
    About sexism...well, FF is just a game.. (SPOILER)who cares?
    It is this sort of attitude that causes sexism to continue to be rife within our society and media. :3 We need to care at least a little bit so we can move to fix this problem.

  6. #21
    'Just Friends' Formalhaut's Avatar
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    The media and all of that reflect the society we live in. If the media (games, news, books etc) is being sexist, then that might perhaps reflect on our society.


  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by fire_of_avalon View Post
    Right, well, in all of the games the majority of the main characters are young men and women, especially in the PS1 era. But they're meant to be extraordinary men and women who recognize and overcome their personal demons and personality flaws for the greater good. Squall learns that existing as an emotionless, isolated automaton robs one of purposefulness - he becomes a leader by realizing he must build relationships, maintain them, protect them and earn trust as opposed to commanding it. He grows and changes. He asserts himself as an opposite of Seifer because he forgoes desire for power and glory when he might have chosen that path as well. He comes to terms with his feelings of abandonment and learns to let people into his life. It's a powerful character change, it's a powerful story of young adulthood.

    Rinoa is static. Flighty, beautiful, dreamy. She is something to chase and obtain. She doesn't learn, she doesn't grow. Her beliefs, outlook, actions, behaviors and character remain the same. Not because she's perfect, but because she is not interested in personal growth and for the plot of the game, she has no need to. Female characters in FFVIII are used as flat foils for their male counterparts. It's this reason, not her age appropriate behavior, is why the handling of her character is sexist.
    That's a really good point actually, I didn't look at it that way.


  8. #23
    programmed by NASIR Recognized Member black orb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maybee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by black orb View Post

    About sexism...well, FF is just a game.. (SPOILER)who cares?
    The female players and the male players that think that it's wrong to see sexism used within one of their favourite jrpg series.
    >>> Well, I guess some people cares about that..

    The japanese are into that stuff a lot and maybe some animal cruelty/abuse too, so you`ll see a lot of that reflected in their games I guess. Im sure there are a lot of non sexism games out there to play anyways.
    >> The black orb glitters ominously... but nothing happens..

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raistlin View Post
    Secondly, I don’t think this is really an issue because it is, at best, a double standard. The female characters acting like real life stereotypical teenage girls is not really a defense considering the male characters generally don’t act like real life stereotypical teenage boys. And, as I pointed out in Part I, stereotypes that are based on real life cultural prejudices and views towards female behavior are not above criticism.
    Idk man. Zell was pretty teenagy, and that's 33% of the main male cast already.

    Quote Originally Posted by black orb View Post
    >>> Many thanks to this thread to remind me that FF has some of the hottest videogame girls ever...

    About sexism...well, FF is just a game.. (SPOILER)who cares?
    Considering the huge number of replies in all these threads. I dunno man, do the math on how many it is who cares.

    Personally, I care because it is boring to see the same kinds of roles and thoughts repeatedly put into the females in the games I play.
    Last edited by Mirage; 02-05-2013 at 01:13 PM.
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  10. #25

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    You know, I will say I don't think the slap fight is a fair example of sexism, more so it was a smurfing awful attempt at humor. I think. (And I take issue with anyone calling sexist at someone telling a sexist joke. But that's just me. )

    Though I don't really know for sure if it was intended as a joke or not, so I can't say for sure if I'd call sexist at it.

    But yeah, foa is pretty smurfing spot on about Rinoa I think.

  11. #26

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    Okay FF VIII males

    Seifer : Let's face it he was acting extremely childish and he needed some growing up to do. Hence why he falls into the mistakes and does the stupid things that he ends up doing, like becoming Edea and Ulti's puppet. In the game's ending he sort of realizes that he was being a huge idiot and while not completely mature it looks like he's starting to head in the right direction.

    Zell : He's sorta like a teenaged version of Sabin and Goku mixed together.

    Squall : He thinks he's grown up and all adult and mature, but he isn't really.

    Irvine : Horny as anything. Suggests to Squall if things don't work out with Rinoa that he can always look at his porno magazine. That feels like a teenaged male stereotype to me. But then there's characters like Edge and Edgar who are adults and act in a playboy manner as well.

    But do they feel like teenagers ? Well, yeah. They do.

  12. #27

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    Everyone in FFVIII acted like a moron.

    Laguna was more immature than the teenagers.

  13. #28
    Shlup's Retired Pimp Recognized Member Raistlin's Avatar
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    I just want to point out how much I love foa. And yes, I do consider myself a feminist.

    I will also freely concede that all of FFVIII's characters were terrible, male and female. No, I didn't like the game. I just think the female ones, especially Rinoa, were frequently terrible in traditionally sexist ways.

    And I think it's important to note that my criticism of these characters on this particular issue does not necessarily mean they were terrible characters who shouldn't be liked. I still like Tifa; I just think her development was silly and revolved around Cloud. Of course, I think the overall writing of FFVII also deserves some criticism, despite how much I enjoy the game.

  14. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raistlin View Post
    I will also freely concede that all of FFVIII's characters were terrible
    Haters gonna hate.

  15. #30
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    I would really like to see the next part of this!
    Quote Originally Posted by Fynn View Post
    Jinx you are absolutely smurfing insane. Never change.

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