Quote Originally Posted by NeoCracker View Post
I think both Krellian and Miang are pretty good comparisons to Windhelm, though I still hold Krellian is more apt. Miang may have manipulated Krellian into doing all this, but really it seemed to be Krellian doing the actual planning and moving, much like Windhelm.

And the thing we like so much about Wilhelm is that he isn't just some emotionless thing, he seems to genuinely care about the people he's trying to save. Someone who is 'neither good nor evil and simply just wants to accomplish it's goal' doesn't say the following.

About Albedo: He has a will that shines with such a wondrous Light. It's a shame he serves as little more then a key."
To paraphrase the other, at the end of Episode 2 he seems happy that Chaos, a guy who can potentially interfere with his plans, is going to be entering the stage and 'no longer holding back'.

Not to mention the end, where he seems genuinely happy that they seem to finding another way to prevent the end, even if them doing so risks the end of the universe. None of these are the actions of some guy whose only purpose is to complete his goal. This also is what makes him more comparable to Krellian. Krellian I just thought they did a completely trout job portraying it.

These are the actions and worlds of a man who truly cares about the world, even if at times he doesn't fully understand the people in it. The Idea you can think otherwise astounds me.

That said, for the reasons above, He still out classes Miang in her entirety. Were as she does all of these terrible things out of complete lack of any kind of Morals, Wilhelm does it out of what he feels is necessary and quite frankly the only way to save the universe.
I disagree about Wilhelm coming off as caring, to me it seems more like a he's happy to not be bored. Yes let's give the resident psycho path a good start, oh hey, chaos is actually going to do something instead of letting me pull off recurrence again... to me this isn't the signs of a caring guy, just an immortal being who is bored and happy to finally have something come up to challenge hiw well oiled conspiracy machine. I also still stand by the fact that Wilhelm's total lack of development and being mostly a non-entity for two and half games just kills any means for someone to actually give a damn. As I said, Miang wins because her reveal as the big bad was far better handled as opposed to Wilhelm where it became obvious after the first game and then the rest of the story is simply spent with the player wishing he would finally come off his high horse and actually do something. When he finally does, he's already been outclasses by the more involving Albedo and Yuriev. Even among Saga's villains, I feel Wilhelm is my least favorite because there was nothing ever there to really set him apart from the rest. They tried to recreate Miang and Krelian with him and his lack of screen time kills any means of really caring.

You already know my thoughts on Krellian, and clearly I still give it to Yuriev. I'll just point out that Yuriev isn't trying to kill God, as stated in episode 3 he claims no one can kill U-DO. His goal is to 'absorb that fear into himself and become a god'. He wants to overcome the fear within himself. Bit of a nitpick, but still felt the need to correct you.
You honestly gave a troutty analysis of Krelian that only told me you really didn't understand what he was doing, and I still feel that secretly your real issue is that he never recieved the beat down you wanted to give him, but I feel that just adds to his allure. I like both characters, and both are written well, but Krelian is a far more well developed character, especially since you never really get to see Yuriev's past, simply read about it in Pied Piper.


'The Mission is everything' isn't really right. 'The Goal is everything' is much more apt. Were it the mission, he would have obeyed Heinline's orders to withhold the Immigrant fleet. Instead he tell's Heinline at the end that he will never relinquish his home. He is fighting in equal parts Religious zealotry and heritage. The breaking of Margulis is also more spaced then Ramsus, happening slowly throughout the events of Episode three. While Ramsus could potentially make the more sympathetic character he himself just wasn't written well enough to make me care.

And I have never been a fan of Villains that were there for the sole purpose of getting their ass kicked by you. Krellian marked one of the reason's it's hard to feel Solaris as a hole was suppose to be threatening. He was pretty much the top general next to Krellian, yet never did I really feel he would be capable of defeating me. Especially not after ID woke up and kicked his ass.

Margulis on the other hand both comes with some growth that makes me feel bad for him, some great story and character bits, as well as being imposing as all hell? Even if Ramsus were to be more sympathetic, Margulis wins out overall for me.
Seriously, you're going to to argue semantics? You know the internet debate rules, Rule #2 - When you have to start arguing the language used in the debate to prove your point, you've already proven you have nothing left to go on. ( For those interested, here's Rule #1). The fact is Margulis has little development and I don't feel that a bit of questioning his superiors in the last third of the plot amounts to the same as watching the completelt mental breakdown of a character that is played beautifully across the course of a game. Margulis would work in a 16-bit RPG but Ramsus was a complex figure for the future of the genre. Also Margulis got his ass kicked by your party a number of time sin the plot, so I would argue that by the end of Episode 2, I really stopped seeing him as much of a threat and more of a stooge. At least Ramsus' defeat is pulled into his character development whereas Margulis just fails and we pretend like it never happened. Ramsus is just the better developed character and Margulis really doesn't hold his own since he's largely a stock character you can find in other games.


Yeah, I'll disagree on Albedo overextending his stay, even if I do agree that he wasn't really used much. The big reason is yes, it was kind of a good send off for him since he wanted to die, but at the same time even from Episode 2 it was clear that wasn't really what he wanted. It was always clear he just wanted to be with his brother. I guess whether or not you have a problem with them giving the psycho what he wanted in the end bothers you is another story entirely.
It's more that he's brought back for a cameo. I'm annoyed because I felt him being a Testament would be a bigger deal but since Albedo has a knack for stealing the limelight from the rest of the cast, he gets thrown in as a background character for most of the game so we can finally develop the rest of the villains.

In fact, I would point out this is my main gripe with Saga's villains. With the exception of Albedo and maybe Vergil, the rest of the villains get no development until the last game, or in Yuriev's case, in Japan exclusive side content. They are a great set of villains but they are just never as well developed for me as Xenogears villains were. Albedo is the best villain in Saga, but its also because he gets two and half games to develop him whereas the rest of the villains only get Episode III to really define them with varying results.


And yeah, the angle thing was a little much. I won't say it came entirely out of no where due to the Kirswasser's comments from Episode 1, but yeah. Not letting one oddly picked scene ruin it for me
I'm not letting this slide, Albedo gets a lame ass overly pretentious send off scene that is more laughable and mood killing than anything else in his plot and it doesn't bother you, but looking at other posts, its because of these "mood killing scenes" that you dislike characters like Billy and Maria and totally ruin any means of caring about them? A bit hypocritical maybe?

And I don't think I'd call it Good guy territory. I mean he still handed Wilhelm the Zohar, and his actions were pretty much entirely for the benefit of Rubedo and no one else. I mean good compared to anything else he has done sure.
Who is one of the good guys. Thus Albedo came back to help the good guys. He's pretty much responsible for taking out Yuriev so I would say Albedo goes good guy, making a deal with the devil to come back doesn't make him ambiguous if his intentions were noble.

Yes, let's pair people with at least some relevance to two guys there for the purpose of filler. Of course Elements win.
I could compare them to Elly's Lamb Squad and they would still lose because those two nitwits have no purpose in the plot. Even the Lambs unit has the whole "We're trying to get good with the Solaris military so we can achieve higher class status" and their relationship with Elly as opposed to their rivalry with Fei and Co. show that they are actually a bunch of nice guys when it comes down to it, they just have a lot at personal stake to succeed, as opposed to Herman and Richard who are simply named flunkies that work for Pellegri.


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Gears does have awesome music though I do feel Mitsuda's work on Episode 1 is actually great, its just poorly handled in where it was placed in the game (which is partly why he left the team after the game). I mean these are great tracks that play once in the game.