Xeno Debate: Gears Vs. Saga

[Pumpkin]

I so want to read this and discuss with you guys, especially since I so rarely get into these discussions, but then I see pages of walls of text and I just... *leaves*

[Wolf Kanno]

Well as we both know Wolf if the story and characters are good, I can tolerate bad dungeons. I don't think there's a dungeon in existence that fills me with more dread than Babel Tower. I've been traumatized since my first playthrough of the game where I missed that one platform jump which sends you falling all the way through a loading transition and back to the bottom of the final stretch of the dungeon.

But I've overcome that and beaten the game several times and rank it as my favorite JRPG ever. So if the dungeons in P2 are just lame or bland, no big deal.

Tell me Wolf, since you like Persona 2 and 3 so much, why is Persona 4 so popular? I have done a "JRPG with the Best Plot" thread on multiple forums and Persona 4 is brought up again and again. Other SMT titles are mentioned but not as frequently. P4 also got an anime right and a bunch of other crap.

Speaking of other SMT games however, this guy's summary of Digital Devil Saga sounds like it be right up my alley. This sounds almost like a condensed summary of Xenogears:

As for suggestions, I cannot suggest the SMT: Digital Devil Saga series enough. Holy crap, the combination of mythological references, meaning of life stuff, mystery, and the ways it plays with characterizations, I love it.

Let me state that I don't disagree that P4 has a great plot. Its amazing and its characters are wonderful and what they did with the Dojima.Nanoko Social Links is some of the best writing coming out of Japan in a long time, my beef with P4 is not the story, its the gameplay that bugs me, and without going into too much detail, I'll simply say that P4 made too many unnecessary changes to a set-up that I felt P3 had perfectly nailed. I find the actual dungeon crawling side of the game to be needlessly more tedious and dumb-downed with no benefits for the player than it should have been, and after P3 did such an great job of making that part of the game very user friendly. Its enough to where it prevents me from ranking it above P3. In terms of writing there are thing I feel P3 does better than P4 and vice versa so I personally feel they come out equal in terms of writing.

Story-wise P4 is excellent and if that's all you need I can see why people would rank it higher than P3 but in terms of overall design,I feel P3:FES is still the best entry in the franchise.

In terms of other SMT titles, I did enjoy what I played of Digital Devil Saga, I simply stopped playing because at the time I had seriously burned myself out on the SMT franchise. I should start a new file after I finish my current Suikoden playthrough and the Xenosaga series playthrough I planned after that.

You know, when my current seriously smurfed up sleep pattern allows me to focus, I will read your giant posts and respond accordingly.

Good luck with that.

[black orb]

chuchufix.jpg

>>> Gears wins..

[Forsaken Lover]

So according to a couple people on SomethingAwful, Persona 3 and 4 are only mentioned more than 2 because:
1. they're newer
2. they're as much dating sims as they are JRPGs

Thoughts?

[NeoCracker]

I have no Idea why you post this in the Xeno debate, but it's more because 3 was the first Persona game to get really popular here. Hell, look how often old games like FF VI and Chrono Trigger pop up.

P1 and 2 also hit a time when JRPG's were at their height, and inevitably got lost in the shuffle of a big rush of the genre.

P3, on the other hand, came at a time when the Genre had begun dwindling outside a few titles, and thus stood out a hell of a lot more. Especially considering how wonderful of a game it was.

And I have no idea why, but I read your post now Wolf, and after I read a paragraph I already forget what I had just read. My mind cannot focus on discussion right now.

[Forsaken Lover]

I'm posting this all in the Xeno thread because making a new topic for it be kinda pointless.

Also aren't you basically saying P3 and P4 just rose to prominence due to being big fish in a small pond?

[Wolf Kanno]

So according to a couple people on SomethingAwful, Persona 3 and 4 are only mentioned more than 2 because:
1. they're newer
2. they're as much dating sims as they are JRPGs

Thoughts?

The first one is probably accurate, the second point I wouldn't count as I feel from experience talking to people, that describing it like that is just as much of a deterrent as an appealing factor.

I'll partially agree with Neo on this. The first game came out between Chrono Trigger and FFVII. It only did well because it was one of maybe four RPG title available outside of Japan on the Playstation and it quickly disappeared from the limelight after Square splashed onto the scene in 97. Which may have been a saving grace because beyond the game's novelty and B-Movie plot and cast, it's pretty blah as a game. Persona 2 Innocent Sin was never released outside of Japan, most likely because of the elements dealing with Nazi's and some of the violence against minors. Despite its often silly plot, the game does have some really dark scenes that many Westerners would find objectionable. Eternal Punishment was released in 2000, around the time Playstation RPG fans were either playing Chrono Cross or FFIX. The PS2 was also getting released so the game fell through in the shuffle and became a cult hit for the few people who picked it up and liked it.

Persona 3 is an example of the Earthbound/Xenogears/Suikoden II phenomena, where its initial release in 2007 was met with great reviews and modest sales but the game was largely overlooked thanks to most people being more concerned about the first year games coming for the Wii and PS3 which had been released holiday season the previous year. Not to mention Bioshock was released like a week after P3 was. From what I gather, P3 didn't really get much traction until FES was released because the word of mouth of other RPG players created more interest, so when FES was released, it met with a bit more success. So it was a sleeper hit much like Xenogears and Suikoden which were both more popular years after their initial releases. P4 also had issues because it really was one of the last notable titles released on the PS2 before people stopped caring.

So the series has always kind of struggled but ite been getting more and more popular and as of now, I beleive Atlus has stated its their best franchise, which is probably why they are taking their sweet time with Persona 5. The amusing thing is that Persona fanbase is in a similar situation as FF fans where fans of the first two installments are pretty annoyed with the entries that made the series a household name. Its not uncommon to go into a Persona forum and not have at least one person remark that the series was better before P3 came along and made the series into an otaku dating-sim series.

And I have no idea why, but I read your post now Wolf, and after I read a paragraph I already forget what I had just read. My mind cannot focus on discussion right now.

It is okay, I really wasn't expecting you to respond.

[Skyblade]

Persona was a spinoff of the Shin Megami Tensei series. This is obvious to anyone who has played it and the SMT games. Unfortunately, the first one isn't that good. It introduced some solid concepts for the basis of the new IP, but had lackluster writing and not enough to give it its own identity.

P2 fleshed things out a bit, and with its second installment really began to nail the writing quality of the series.

P3 is where the series really hit its stride, and really became its own series, rather than a SMT spinoff.

P4 experimented with and refined P3's formula, with mixed success. Writing generally improved (especially in the Social Links), the dungeon was much better integrated into the game, and a number of minor features were refined or polished. However, combat was dumbed down unnecessarily, yen was way too scarce (it was too plentiful in P3, sure, but that's better than P4's grindfest), and tone and atmosphere generally weren't as well used as they were in P3. Also, I dislike the small scale of events after the epic scale P3 had.

I have to say P3 is the best of the series as well. But P4, and especially P4Arena, do show huge potential for the future of the series.

[NeoCracker]

Well, not much else to say really now that I've read your post. Our disagreement on Krellian are simply how well we each feel he is written, and Wilhelm we got entirely different views on him as a character, so it's difficult to even discuss him. We may as well be discussing to completely different people.

Ramsus I can agree I like the premise, but he was never able to do it for me as a villain because all there really was between the two of us was pity. I wont' deny he had more backround then Margulas. In the end though, I put more value in his force of personality and presence, even if his history was lacking in content.

The Albedo thing is just something that bothers me a lot less then a giant battle bunny. (Or a giant crucified battle bunny for that matter).

The Albedo good guy thing is just semantics and nit picking small trout.

As for the character pairings, you have no argument from me on Fei and Shion.

And I see what you are saying with Chaos and Citan, but as a character I really enjoyed Chaos. Lack of development on his story is a bit sad, though at the same time as a Character he works so well. Though the big reason I pick him over Citan is, as awesome as he is, I think he might be too awesome. He always just seem so in control and on top of things, it's hard for me to feel there's much tension or drama in his actions.

Also with you on Bart and Jr, Bart just stayed the goof to much.

I disagree with Elly and KOS, but this is mostly because I got a bit bored with Elly, as well as the whole 'pre-destined' love thing. Also though I really enjoyed some of KOS-MOS's sublte growths of personality in game 1, even if 2 didn't expand and 3 kind of jumped ahead with it a bit to fast.

Finally, we can both agree Yuriev and Albedo do outshine Wilhelm, even if I do like Wilhelm.

[Forsaken Lover]

Curiously, Wilhelm has one of the best lines in the whole Trilogy and it's about Yuriev.

"He's a truly fascinating human being. In order to conquer his fear, he chooses to absorb that fear and become that fear himself."

Poor Yuri Lowental (Kevin's VA there) gets so much hate. EP3's dub wasn't as good as 1's but I was satisfied with his performance. I guess he's just a bit overexposed.

[Wolf Kanno]

Well, not much else to say really now that I've read your post. Our disagreement on Krellian are simply how well we each feel he is written, and Wilhelm we got entirely different views on him as a character, so it's difficult to even discuss him. We may as well be discussing to completely different people.

We mostly are, though I'm pretty sure my interpretation is the correct one. Wilhelm is a bit of a condescending ass in Episode 3.

Ramsus I can agree I like the premise, but he was never able to do it for me as a villain because all there really was between the two of us was pity. I wont' deny he had more backround then Margulas. In the end though, I put more value in his force of personality and presence, even if his history was lacking in content.

Ramsus to me evolved beyond a simple villain to a tragic figure in the story. I don't think we the player were meant to think of him as a threat for very long. To me, Ramsus gave me something different whereas Margulis' lack of backstory and context made it hard for me to see him as special as his archetype is pretty common. He just doesn't stand out as much, especially when he's competing with better developed villains like Yuriev and Albedo.

The Albedo thing is just something that bothers me a lot less then a giant battle bunny. (Or a giant crucified battle bunny for that matter).

Neither really bothered me to be honest. Both scenes still make me cringe but at least I get a laugh out of the Chu-Chu scene. I never really understood the amount of hate she got from fans, except maybe the same issues VII fans have with Cait Sith being a bit too goofy for their "seriously serious" mature RPG.

The Albedo good guy thing is just semantics and nit picking small trout.

I'm still right.

As for the character pairings, you have no argument from me on Fei and Shion.

I still appreciate Shion as a character, I just felt the writer kind of lost their way with her midway through the story. I think its really hard to write a true flawed hero.

And I see what you are saying with Chaos and Citan, but as a character I really enjoyed Chaos. Lack of development on his story is a bit sad, though at the same time as a Character he works so well. Though the big reason I pick him over Citan is, as awesome as he is, I think he might be too awesome. He always just seem so in control and on top of things, it's hard for me to feel there's much tension or drama in his actions.

The funny thing about this, is that I initially felt that way about chaos, I kinda kept imagining that he could really resolve all of the issues in the story if he got off his ass and did something. Which turns out to be theoretically true, though I really felt they should have developed his situation better. While I can agree that Citan does reek of Mary Sue at times, I feel the fact he's written so his allegiance is always in question makes the fact he's so damn perfect more interesting and menacing.

Also with you on Bart and Jr, Bart just stayed the goof to much.

He does, but I appreciate it, especially since his moments in the plot often lighten the mood after some of the plots more serious moments and I liked that it gave this contrast. To me, this is partly why I do think Xenogears worked better as story for me because had its mind rape serious moments and then would turn around and be goofy making you think everything is going to be alright, so when it goes back to mind rape mode it just gets you more. I feel the failed attempt to liberate Aveh is a great sequence of this, because Bart gets caught, his butler tries to save him only for the machine to malfunction and making the escape more comical and make you think this isn't going to be so bad, only to have Bart's next scene be with Id's first actual introduction in the story and that whole sequence ends everything very bleakly.

Xenosaga was just a bit too serious for its own good at times, to the point where even when it tried to be funny (usually at Allen's expense) it just feels a bit too forced. Granted, I'll agree this contrast of humor and seriousness doesn't always work in Xenogears favor but I can often forgive ruining a moment for humor. It made me laugh, I can't say I wasn't enjoying myself can I?

I disagree with Elly and KOS, but this is mostly because I got a bit bored with Elly, as well as the whole 'pre-destined' love thing. Also though I really enjoyed some of KOS-MOS's sublte growths of personality in game 1, even if 2 didn't expand and 3 kind of jumped ahead with it a bit to fast.

KOS-MOS' whole story revelation just fell flat for me and ultimately ruined her for me, there wasn't much left to fall back on since she's a Rei Ayanami expy and what growth she did get from the first two games is too subtle to really draw any interest for me. I just really like Elly, I felt she does a great job making Fei a better character and I like her story. I actually like the "pre-destined" element but I'm a romantic at heart, yet for me, Elly was more than that, and I still feel even if that part was dropped I would still like her, because her character was well developed and she did really grow and change. I liked that even when she started to suffer from being the helpless damsel in distress she still has moments where she takes charge and shows she's just as competent as the male characters. She's that nice mix of being competent yet still vulnerable.

Finally, we can both agree Yuriev and Albedo do outshine Wilhelm, even if I do like Wilhelm.

My love for Wilhem ended after Episode 3, but I'm happy we can at least agree about something concerning Xenosaga.

[edczxcvbnm]

Xenoblade has a pretty good narrative. The characters may not be as developed as you would have liked but the story took some very interesting and unpredictable twists and turns that I thoroughly enjoyed.

I liked the story and that ending came out of left field and yet, it didn't really feel as though they pull some bulltrout out of their hat. That is hard to pull off. I plowed through the game because the story was so compelling. I found the side questing and stuff to be overly monotonous because I didn't really care for the battle system...and I love .hack and FFXII :/

[tony12]

As someone who played Xenogears way back when and read all of the perfect works stuff when it was still readily available online Xenogears gave you so much more of the complete story than Xenosaga did.

Xenogears has probably been the longest jrpg ever created and it had a ton of depth. It gave you a very detailed story about what they were currently doing as well as gave you backstories for everything that came before.

When Xenosaga was announced it was supposed to be a re-telling of all six episodes from perfect works. Quite frankly it failed miserably at accomplishing the goal it set out to do. Game one was about a third of the size Xenogears was and didn't do nearly as good of job of developing the world as Xenogears (mainly because it was so much shorter). Episode 2 came out and their had been a big turnover production wise and it really showed in the game. The series was all but done by Episode III and many fans had already given up hope for the future of the series. Though Episode III turned out to be a pretty good game it just showed how poor of job they did at trying to do a re-telling of perfect works.


You can say what you want about Xenogears but at least Xenogears did a much more thorough job of telling the story of perfect works than Xenosaga did (the only reason Xenosaga was created in the first place was to tell that story and it failed miserably at it). Instead of giving you six episodes from perfect works xenosaga gave you two at the most (as episode 1 of perfect works was about the galactic war that was going on and it ended when they went searching for a new planet to settle on).

[Forsaken Lover]

Xenosaga became its own thing pretty quickly. Given that Square owns the rights tO Xenogears, Takahashi and crew couldn't very well actually do the episodes detailed in Perfect Works.

What's more, the six part Xenosaga saga was supposed to be split into two "arcs" with the first three games focusing on Shion.

Of course there are plenty of allusions but no outright connections. An example would be Mai in XSIII - she is pretty much a Maria clone. (They were both total cutie pies.)

I would have loved to see Episode IV of Gears but Xenosaga was never going to give us that so I'm not gonna hold that against it.

[tony12]

Xenosaga became its own thing pretty quickly. Given that Square owns the rights tO Xenogears, Takahashi and crew couldn't very well actually do the episodes detailed in Perfect Works.

What's more, the six part Xenosaga saga was supposed to be split into two "arcs" with the first three games focusing on Shion.

Of course there are plenty of allusions but no outright connections. An example would be Mai in XSIII - she is pretty much a Maria clone. (They were both total cutie pies.)

I would have loved to see Episode IV of Gears but Xenosaga was never going to give us that so I'm not gonna hold that against it.

It was meant to be a re-telling of perfect works. Everyone knows they weren't able to have the same characters as they did in Xenogears but the themes of each episode was meant to be the same. How many arcs there were to be in Xenosaga consistently changed as they began having a difficult time finishing things off. Shion's arc was never supposed to last three games. Takahashi originally wanted each game to have a separate group of main characters but when he realized that wasn't possible he changed it to each arc would last two games. It wasn't until the series was all but canceled that they decided to finish it off with three.