Will Final Fantasy XV's Cid be a Lady?

[Shlup]

I'm responding to the volume of text people are devoting to this subject. You don't have to have caps lock on to seem like you're shouting.

Everybody's whining about this or that but no one's suggesting any action and that bothers me.

Here are a few actions you can take, with varying degrees of effort:
1) Reflect on these issues and how they may affect your feelings and behavior. Try to do better.
2) Talk about these issues in hopes of making someone aware of them who previously wasn't.
3) Talk about these issues so that others realize they're not alone. Silence doesn't change anything.
4) Write a letter to Square Enix expressing your disappointment that they would choose to turn an iconic character into fan service.
5) Write a letter to Square Enix, and let them know you won't be buying the game because of it.
6) Write an article, a blog post, or make a video about the issue for the above reasons.
7) Start a petition to let Square Enix know others are also disappointed by their choice.

Is that acceptable for you? That's all I could think of off the top of my head.

First you don't care about how the gender disparities between the treatment of fictional characters negatively impacts society

If you would be so kind as to stop repeatedly putting words in my mouth, I'd be really grateful. Do I think sexualising is okay? Yes. Do I think gender disparities are okay? Depends on the gender disparity in question. If I like the taste of Cheddar that doesn't mean I like the taste of all cheeses. Do I think the gender disparities between the treatment of fictional characters, in general throughout all media, negatively impacts society? Yes.

Fourth, you keep going back and forth between "men are sexualized too" and "the media obviously treats men and women differently." Which is it?

Both. These things are not mutually exclusive. Men are sexualised, and I think it's ignorant to think otherwise. But men and women ARE treated differently, and I think it's ignorant to think otherwise regarding that, too.

I wanted to highlight those two statements before reminding you that you've said each of the following:

I don't "appreciate" cheap pandering, but I "accept and quite frankly don't care about" cheap pandering provided it's a fictional character and it is done to each gender.

Is it okay to have sexy characters in a video game? Even if it's just for the sake of making them sexy? Sure, I don't see why not. Guy or girl. Just don't care, really.

I don't care if an outfit is sexualised and/or stupid.

In the end, I just think that it's not a problem to sexualise fictional people.

It could be a culture issue, it could be a social issue, but as for myself, I don't mind fictional characters being shown to be sexy because they are in a fantasy world where bullets, swords and toxic chemicals used by car mechanics are all things that do not harm one so easily.

I just don't see a problem with sexualising in general so long as it's being done in a fictional world, and it's being done to both genders.

You acknowledge that "men and women ARE treated differently," you acknowledge that "gender disparities between the treatment of fictional characters negatively impacts society" but tell me I'm putting words in your mouth after you've said repeatedly that you don't care, as long as they're fictional and it's happening to both genders. The genders are not treated equally, it negatively impacts society, but you "don't see a problem."

Maybe you could just clarify what it is that you don't care about then.

I would also appreciate you giving me a handful examples of sexualized male characters. We can limit it to Final Fantasy since you've declared the series "fair and equal."

Keep in mind these objective facts: The oldest [human] female character is Lulu at 22 and oldest male is Strago at 70. At least 23FFIV Cid (54), Yang (35), Tellah (60), Edward (24), Fusoya (?), Edge (26), Galuf (60), Locke (25), Edgar (27), Sabin (27), Cyan (50), Strago (70), Setzer (27), Barrett (35), Vincent (27), Steiner (33), Amarant (26), Auron (35), Wakka (23), Basch (36), Sazh (40) playable male characters are older than 22-year-old Lulu; not counting temporarily playable characters over 22 (Laguna, Kiros, Ward, Seymour), characters of unknown age other than obviously elderly Fusoya (Shadow and Gogo), and non-humans 25-year-old Kimahri and 46-year-old Red.

There are no non-humanoid female characters.

This isn't completely objective, but I think I was very fair in saying male characters are more than twice as likely to be allowed to be unattractive as female characters (also, I thought Gau was 14, but he's 13 so I'm amending my "attractive" to 13+ for the sake of erring on your side).

To my knowledge, no male characters pose in a way designed specifically to expose their secondary sex characterstics.

Before you delve into your many examples of sexualized males, I want to point out that I feel like a major issue here may be people thinking "sexy" and "sexualized" are synonyms. They're not. Leonardo DiCaprio is always sexy no matter what he's doing or wearing. A sexy person/character is "sexually interesting or exciting," or desirable.

According to the American Psychological Association, a person is sexualized when:
-a person’s value comes only from his or her sexual appeal or sexual behavior, to the exclusion of other characteristics;
-a person is held to a standard that equates physical attractiveness (narrowly defined) with being sexy;
-a person is sexually objectified—that is, made into a thing for others’ sexual use, rather than seen as a person with the capacity for independent action and decision making; and/or
-sexuality (def: expression of sexual receptivity or interest especially when excessive ) is inappropriately imposed upon a person.

So, please, if you would give me some examples of male Final Fantasy characters who are sexualized, it would help us get on the same page. Also I want you to honestly ask yourself when you look at a male character's exposed skin whether you feel that skin is being exposed in order to be tantalizing to females/homos or whether it's meant to emphasize that they are physically powerful.

Also, just for posterity and because I hate for anyone to think I just talk out of my ass, here are some choice quotes from a few highly regarded studies, primarily the APA's report:
"Games were significantly more likely to depict female characters partially nude or engaged in sexual behaviors than to depict male characters in this way.

"Dill, Gentile, Richter, and Dill (2005) found that in the 20 top-selling games in 1999, only female characters were portrayed as highly sexualized."

My primary source for these is the Wiki entry on sexualization. I know there's always someone who goes "Pfft, Wikipedia," but each statement has a citation, so you're welcome to skip the wiki and read each of the citations if you prefer.

[Loony BoB]

You acknowledge that "men and women ARE treated differently," you acknowledge that "gender disparities between the treatment of fictional characters negatively impacts society" but tell me I'm putting words in your mouth after you've said repeatedly that you don't care, as long as they're fictional and it's happening to both genders. The genders are not treated equally, it negatively impacts society, but you "don't see a problem."

Maybe you could just clarify what it is that you don't care about then.

When, in a specific game and/or series, I feel the genders are sexualised and/or not sexualised to a reasonably equal degree (gender-wise), no, I don't care. If, such as in a game like Dead or Alive, we see it blatantly one-sided, I think it's bad. Doesn't mean I'm going to lose my trout, but I feel these games go too far. They're entitled to make these games and like yourself, I'm entitled to not buy them, but hey, whatever. Still, I can see the appeal of these games to people who are seeking titilation without the use of outright porn. I won't kick up a stink about it, but I'm happy to state my opinion on any particular game and/or series if I have one and feel like putting it out there. FF just happens to be a series close to my heart and if I feel people are overreacting, I'm just as happy - if not even happier, due to the series being something I'm fond of - to express my opinion on it.

I'll also note that when I feel they go too far, I still express an opinion against Final Fantasy - such as in the case of Fran, which I personally felt was ridiculous. But some people - interestingly often female - like that, so I wasn't going to make a huge fuss.

I would also appreciate you giving me a handful examples of sexualized male characters. We can limit it to Final Fantasy since you've declared the series "fair and equal."

Gladiolus. Tidus. Barret. Snow. Gadolt. Kuja (although personally I imagine that the majority of girls are more likely to find other characters sexier than Kuja, like Basch, because girls tend to prefer the feather to the whole damned chicken, which I personally agree with but hey, if you like the codpiece, power to you).

Keep in mind these objective facts: The oldest [human] female character is Lulu at 22 and oldest male is Strago at 70. At least 23FFIV Cid (54), Yang (35), Tellah (60), Edward (24), Fusoya (?), Edge (26), Galuf (60), Locke (25), Edgar (27), Sabin (27), Cyan (50), Strago (70), Setzer (27), Barrett (35), Vincent (27), Steiner (33), Amarant (26), Auron (35), Wakka (23), Basch (36), Sazh (40) playable male characters are older than 22-year-old Lulu; not counting temporarily playable characters over 22 (Laguna, Kiros, Ward, Seymour), characters of unknown age other than obviously elderly Fusoya (Shadow and Gogo), and non-humans 25-year-old Kimahri and 46-year-old Red.

I've acknowledged already that the age thing is something they can work on.

There are no non-humanoid female characters.

Freya. Unless you mean non-humanoid in a more loose term, in which case there's probably only been one non-humanoid ever, Red XIII. All the rest have two arms, two legs, a vertical torso, a neck, a head, etc.

To my knowledge, no male characters pose in a way designed specifically to expose their secondary sex characterstics.

It's a bit unfair as males don't have boobs or any kind of "secondary sex characteristics" I can think of according to society. We've just got the genitalia, which to my knowledge isn't exaggerated in either gender beyond that seen in Kuja.

Before you delve into your many examples of sexualized males

BUT I ALREADY DID THIS Dangit, Shlup! Let me reply to your post as I read it more often! xD

I want to point out that I feel like a major issue here may be people thinking "sexy" and "sexualized" are synonyms. They're not. Leonardo DiCaprio is always sexy no matter what he's doing or wearing. A sexy person/character is "sexually interesting or exciting," or desirable.

According to the American Psychological Association, a person is sexualized when:
-a person’s value comes only from his or her sexual appeal or sexual behavior, to the exclusion of other characteristics;

In this case, 90% of the claims for both sides can probably be thrown out. Damned near everyone has value beyond physical appearance in the Final Fantasy series. And we haven't even seen FFXV yet but I'm pretty confident that Cindy (wish they kept it as Cidney) will have more relevance than her sexual appeal.

-a person is held to a standard that equates physical attractiveness (narrowly defined) with being sexy;

I don't quite understand this bit. >_<;
[quote]-a person is sexually objectified—that is, made into a thing for others’ sexual use, rather than seen as a person with the capacity for independent action and decision making; and/or[/quote
See two bits up - I'm pretty confident that Cindy is not going to be a whore and I'm pretty sure most FF characters, if not all of them, can have the same said about them. Perhaps a few exceptions such as dancers in FFV and people you encounter within honeybee inn.

-sexuality (def: expression of sexual receptivity or interest especially when excessive ) is inappropriately imposed upon a person.

...Aeris? >_>; But kidding aside, again, I don't think we can say much of this for anyone. Has sex ever actually been a thing in FF? Personally speaking, I think sexualised should include "being dressed inappropriately for ones role for the sake of gaining sexual appeal via physical attraction." If one of the above was meant to equate to that, it goes back to "is it sexy, is it relevant for what they do" and we're back to what we've been discussing earlier.

So, please, if you would give me some examples of male Final Fantasy characters who are sexualized, it would help us get on the same page. Also I want you to honestly ask yourself when you look at a male character's exposed skin whether you feel that skin is being exposed in order to be tantalizing to females/homos or whether it's meant to emphasize that they are physically powerful.

I'm troubled here because every single guy I can think of that is supposed to be sexually attractive appears to be muscular (and therefore powerful) because that is what is deemed to be sexy according to most females. So I could tell you Gladiolus, and you could say "No, he's strong, that's a power thing." And I don't know where to go from there because it's down to how you personally want to interpret it. The guy legitimately looks like a male model, to me at least.

Really, I think before we can go much further, you need to send me examples of sexualised males (...probably better to do so via PM or something) so I can get a better understanding of your interpretation of what they should look like. I've grown up being told (by females) that male wrestlers in tiny pants was not something they found attractive, but I'm getting the impression that this is what you mean by sexualised, because I'm unsure what else it could be.

[Vyk]

So now that her name is actually Cindy, what are we going to do if/when the real Cid pops up? I've obviously been on the side that her outfit is a little too purposefully sexual for no good/justifiable reason. But the people saying "They changed Cid's gender and immediately sexualized it" will have lost a little momentum

Is this going to be more forgivable if it turns out to not be an incarnation of Cid? I obviously threw my hands up when it was pointed out her outfit was designed by a fashion designer and not just a perverted character artist locked up and deprived(/depraved) at Square HQ, but I think it leaves a little more wiggle-room for the possibility of context

She legitimately could end up being Cid's daughter or niece. Which would mean he's the real deal, and she's probably just some up-start prodigy mechanic who might not have been wearing that while working on stuff. She may have just gotten done taking off her coveralls, or she may have been standing on the sideline helping her uncle/dad and just got some stuff on her face. I still don't completely approve of her outfit as a standard for FF characters, but the situation has at the very least opened up for more reasonable context possibilities. And if any of that turns out to be the case, I'll likely be a lot more lenient on her

But in the end I'd probably swallow it anyway, my biggest problem is not so much that it exists, but that it exists in contrast with everything else. I already said she looks like someone out of Borderlands in that get-up and I don't hate Borderlands. But they established their own style. This game established its own style a long time ago. And then she shows up and just sorta throws things off in all kinds of wrong and weird directions

But the fact alone that they've made her name officially Cindy rather than Cidney gives me pause for thought. But yeah..

[Ayen]

Is this going to be more forgivable if it turns out to not be an incarnation of Cid?

No.

[Loony BoB]

I'm pretty confident that Cindy is the real Cid, given in FFXV she is named Cidney. I mean, you're right, it's possible she's a niece or something, but I find it unlikely. It would be pretty cool to have Cid have a family including Cindy, though, as I really do feel that Final Fantasy lacks "complete" families. It's always just a mum (Ma Dincht, Cloud's Mother, Elmyra) or just a dad (Barret, Sazh, Tifa's Dad). Even then, they're often adopted. Give us real families, dammit. We had Hope but then, well, yeah, that ended quickly.

[Sephiroth]

Where was it ever said that "Shidonii", a character that is supposed to be "Cidney" and Hajime Tabata even mentioned as "she is called "Cid-ney"" to confirm her ciddish role was changed?

[Shorty]

-a person is held to a standard that equates physical attractiveness (narrowly defined) with being sexy;

I don't quite understand this bit. >_<;

-a person is sexually objectified—that is, made into a thing for others’ sexual use, rather than seen as a person with the capacity for independent action and decision making; and/or

See two bits up - I'm pretty confident that Cindy is not going to be a whore and I'm pretty sure most FF characters, if not all of them, can have the same said about them. Perhaps a few exceptions such as dancers in FFV and people you encounter within honeybee inn.

No one is saying that anyone in Final Fantasy is a whore. You are jumping to astounding conclusions and implications of what Shlup is saying. I don't want to speak for her, but what it seems that she's saying is that there is an over-abundance of unnecessary sexualization of female characters in the series, not that everyone who shows off a little bit skin or cleavage is a whore. She literally used actual definitions of these words and somehow you snagged "whore" from them? How?

So, please, if you would give me some examples of male Final Fantasy characters who are sexualized, it would help us get on the same page. Also I want you to honestly ask yourself when you look at a male character's exposed skin whether you feel that skin is being exposed in order to be tantalizing to females/homos or whether it's meant to emphasize that they are physically powerful.

I'm troubled here because every single guy I can think of that is supposed to be sexually attractive appears to be muscular (and therefore powerful) because that is what is deemed to be sexy according to most females. So I could tell you Gladiolus, and you could say "No, he's strong, that's a power thing." And I don't know where to go from there because it's down to how you personally want to interpret it. The guy legitimately looks like a male model, to me at least.

Really, I think before we can go much further, you need to send me examples of sexualised males (...probably better to do so via PM or something) so I can get a better understanding of your interpretation of what they should look like. I've grown up being told (by females) that male wrestlers in tiny pants was not something they found attractive, but I'm getting the impression that this is what you mean by sexualised, because I'm unsure what else it could be.

The problem here is that you are confusing physical attraction with sexualization. A character having muscles is not sexualization, those are simply characteristics. Someone feeling attracted to another person =/= that person is a sexualized individual. It is a fact that females in this series are outrageously sexualized in showing off cleavage, breasts, and revealing much of their bodies. I don't see how you can draw a line from "women in thongs, bras, midriffs, short skirts and short shorts and other revealing outfits showing off sexual parts of their bodies is sexualization of the gender" to "girls liking muscles makes men sexualized". The two don't match up at all.



Please explain to me how Gladiolus is a sexualized character. How exactly are parts of his body being shown off in order for women (and others) to objectify him? His shirt being open, okay, I'll give you that. Even so, such a thing doesn't imply sex appeal for all women and it still doesn't make him a sexualized character. Even with an example of his open shirt, he is a single male out of how many other males and how many other games where the males are not sexualized.

Saying that this problem plagues both sexes is not accurate; a single instance of it happening within the realm of male characters does not make it a problem for the male characters; it makes it a happenstance occurrence. The problem flat out lies with female characters and that is that.

[Loony BoB]

I didn't say Shlup said anyone was a whore, I was just going through the bullet list of what makes something sexualised and referencing it to Final Fantasy. Don't read too much into that bit.

Anyway, like I said, I'm genuinely going to need to see examples of what you think are sexualised men so I can get what you're referring to as what you think a sexualised male is, and what you think a sexualised female is. I mean, I know what I think they are, but you seem to be in disagreement. I dare say this is ironic that a guy like me could feel that a guy is being sexualised and girls are telling me "Nah he's not sexualised you're just wrong." Pretty sure I'm capable of saying when I feel a man is being used as a sex object. If I were a younger guy with more self confidence issues, I would be looking at the men women fawn over and he would be one of them and I would be going " I'm nothing like that, and never will be anything like that. I'm inferior." which is basically what Shlup is worrying about her daughter over. I get the feeling that people think guys are immune to such things, and I tell you, I was not when I was a kid. So if you're going to say that he is not being sexualised then I'm genuinely baffled.

What I'm getting out of Square Enix's characters is that they want physically attractive characters. For a lot of guys, like it or not, girls looking like Cindy are seen as highly physically attractive. For a lot of girls, whether I like it or not, guys looking like Gladiolus are seen as highly physically attractive. If you don't think he's being sexualised, I don't know what to say beyond "I think he's about as sexualised as Cindy is, it's just that sexualised girls are far bloody sexier than sexualised men are by default, in my personal opinion."

[Vyk]

Where was it ever said that "Shidoni", a character that is supposed to be "Cidney" and Hajime Tabata even mentioned as "she is called "Cid-ney"" to confirm her ciddish role was changed?

Her role as "a Cid" wasn't changed. Though I always thought it was just our presumption that she was meant to be "a Cid" to begin with. Has it been confirmed that she is in fact this series Cid? My whole comment was under the impression that we were merely assuming she was "a Cid" based on the similarity in her name and supposed ability as a mechanic, which is a typical Cid career. I wasn't aware it was confirmed. But even if it was, I was commenting on the idea that they had translated her name to Cindy, rather than Cidney. Which would mean "Cid" is not even in her name, which would give credence to the idea that she may not in fact be this game's Cid. And we may have presumed wrong in this thread. People were calling her "Cidney" and then assuming that meant she was Cid. I haven't really seen an official confirmation that she is indeed Cid. But I haven't been following things as closely as others

[Sephiroth]

Where was it ever said that "Shidoni", a character that is supposed to be "Cidney" and Hajime Tabata even mentioned as "she is called "Cid-ney"" to confirm her ciddish role was changed?

Her role as "a Cid" wasn't changed. Though I always thought it was just our presumption that she was meant to be "a Cid" to begin with. Has it been confirmed that she is in fact this series Cid? My whole comment was under the impression that we were merely assuming she was "a Cid" based on the similarity in her name and supposed ability as a mechanic, which is a typical Cid career. I wasn't aware it was confirmed. But even if it was, I was commenting on the idea that they had translated her name to Cindy, rather than Cidney. Which would mean "Cid" is not even in her name, which would give credence to the idea that she may not in fact be this game's Cid. And we may have presumed wrong in this thread. People were calling her "Cidney" and then assuming that meant she was Cid. I haven't really seen an official confirmation that she is indeed Cid. But I haven't been following things as closely as others

Shidonii and Shindi is not the same and her name is written and pronounced "Shidonii", so Cidney. I'd wonder about her being called Cindy in the West as Cidney was meant and you can conclude from the interview. Especially because Shidonii is a different name.

Shi-do-ni-i

[Loony BoB]

If it is an assumption we've made, the rest of the internet has made the same assumption. Possible! But unlikely.

[Shorty]

I didn't say Shlup said anyone was a whore, I was just going through the bullet list of what makes something sexualised and referencing it to Final Fantasy. Don't read too much into that bit.

Anyway, like I said, I'm genuinely going to need to see examples of what you think are sexualised men so I can get what you're referring to as what you think a sexualised male is, and what you think a sexualised female is. I mean, I know what I think they are, but you seem to be in disagreement. I dare say this is ironic that a guy like me could feel that a guy is being sexualised and girls are telling me "Nah he's not sexualised you're just wrong." Pretty sure I'm capable of saying when I feel a man is being used as a sex object. If I were a younger guy with more self confidence issues, I would be looking at the men women fawn over and he would be one of them and I would be going " I'm nothing like that, and never will be anything like that. I'm inferior." which is basically what Shlup is worrying about her daughter over. I get the feeling that people think guys are immune to such things, and I tell you, I was not when I was a kid. So if you're going to say that he is not being sexualised then I'm genuinely baffled.

What I'm getting out of Square Enix's characters is that they want physically attractive characters. For a lot of guys, like it or not, girls looking like Cindy are seen as highly physically attractive. For a lot of girls, whether I like it or not, guys looking like Gladiolus are seen as highly physically attractive. If you don't think he's being sexualised, I don't know what to say beyond "I think he's about as sexualised as Cindy is, it's just that sexualised girls are far bloody sexier than sexualised men are by default, in my personal opinion."

It's not ironic. You are not a woman, yet you make statements saying what women find to be attractive and how they sexualize men in instances where they are clearly not sexualizing them. That is wrong, because you are making assumptions on behalf of women, especially when they don't apply. You have yet to provide a sufficient example of male characters that appear to be sexualized by women, so you are wrong there again. There's nothing ironic about it; you are not presenting correct facts. It is incredulous that you feel like any one of the men in these games is used as a sex objects, and even moreso that you are using this comparison to contrast the present sexism to the female characters. You don't need to see photos of men I or anyone else consider to be sexualized males; it doesn't apply here. It doesn't change the fact of whether the males in this series are sexualized or not.

Just because you personally feel like you won't measure up to certain characteristics does not mean those characteristics are sexualized. I don't know how you are drawing these conclusions.

And on Cindy; how is she physically attractive? Is it her mechanic garb? Is it the oversized trucker hat on her head or her boyish haircut? Is it the dirt on her face, which you mentioned earlier? Tell me what it is exactly that you find attractive about her.



I don't want to put words in anyone's mouths, but I'm betting on the fact that it's her blatant open breasts and bra that lead that attraction. And because her character is in a sexualizing and revealing outfit showing off a sexual part of her body, it is safe for me to make that assumption.

[Sephiroth]

Host: (reading fan question) "Cidney-tan."

Tabata: I'm sorry, what am I supposed to answer there?
Host: Well, just who is she?
Tabata: Ah. Well, her name is "Cid"-ney, so that should give you an idea. But in terms of who she is to the player, well, she isn't integral to the story, rather she's integral to the player's adventure – she's a mechanic who supports your travels. What she works on, you can probably guess [from the trailer]
Host: That's who she is.

Source:

http://kotaku.com/final-fantasy-xvs-...ail-1673513161


I do speak Japanese, by the way. Not that this would exclude a mistake but the director mentioning it and me understanding her name and seeing a picture where her name is written should be convincing. Shidonii has nothing to do with Cindy. Shi = Shi or Si, do = do or d, nii = n + long pronounced i = Cidney.

[Loony BoB]

Hadn't even seen that pic 'til just now.

What I'd seen is the bit in the trailer, and the pic of her and Gladiolus pictures at the start of this thread, and the screenshots of the trailer I just linked to. Honestly didn't even know there was more footage out!

As for what I find physically attractive regarding her: Hair, facial features, boobs, legs, general body shape. Clothes that highlight said features. What's not to like? And honestly? Yeah, dirt on the face. Hell yeah.

Personally, I can only hold my hands up at this point and say that you perceive sexualisation completely different to me and I disagree with your assessments. And I still have yet to be actually told what is a sexualised male, so what the hell can I do but go by what I am told by females? And as for saying what women find attractive: Hey, I'm going by what women have told me my entire life. It is legitimately news to me that you guys think something else is physically attractive than what I believe. Because wherever I go, girls talk about all these dudes and I'm going by what characteristics they have on display, and of course books based on studies (in case you're wondering, Shlup: Why Men Don't Listen and Women Can't Read Maps).

[Shorty]

So if you like all of these other things about her, it's safe to say that putting her boobs on display is an unnecessary sexualization that they could have done without because you would like her anyway regardless of whether or not her boobs were showing.

If Square wants to establish attractive female characters, it can obviously be done without showing off women's bodies.

Since you won't shut the smurf up about what females personally consider to be sexualized males, here you go.

joe jonas being a turd absolutely NSFW


Even so, I don't see how what I consider to be sexualized males has anything to do with this conversation. It is a fact that males are not sexualized in this game, plain and simple.

A simple dude standing there with big muscles does not make him sexualized. It means he happens to have big muscles. End of story. It doesn't matter if "not all guys look like that" or if they look like models; so do all of the women in the games. Differentiating body types aren't being debated here (though maybe they should be). We're talking about sexualization based on how women are presented in these games.