Will Final Fantasy XV's Cid be a Lady?

[Depression Moon]

There hasn't been confirmation on the name Cindy or Cidney yet huh?
I'm thinking it's probably most likely Cidney, given that Cindy never shows up without her sisters, unless they are going way unexpected with the Magus Sisters this time.

[Loony BoB]

So if you like all of these other things about her, it's safe to say that putting her boobs on display is an unnecessary sexualization that they could have done without because you would like her anyway regardless of whether or not her boob were showing.

I'm not going to complain if they make hot lookin' ladies, no. Is it ever necessary to do this? No. But they do it. I'm okay with that. They make hot lookin' dudes, I'm cool with that too. Boobs on display does increase physical attraction. This is one of the most commonly known things in the history of humankind and I'm shocked if you think it's not true.

Since you won't shut the smurf up about what females personally consider to be sexualized males, here you go.

absolutely NSFW


Otherwise, sorry, but a dude standing there with big muscles does not make him sexualized. It means he has big muscles. End of story.

Do you find that to be really physically attractive? If there were a character dressed like that, do you think he'd be really popular with the ladies? If so, throw him in, hell, I don't mind. But I've been told all my life that buff dudes (and that guy is muscular, don't kid yourself that Jonas has the physical condition of a regular bloke) in their underwear were not attractive. Especially when I watched WWF and WWE. So yeah, I've been coditioned by females to believe that this is not what women want.

Also, to go back to Why Men Don't Listen and Women Can't Read Maps, it generally backs up the theory that women just don't buy into this kind of thing like men do...

Nude male centerfolds come and go as women's magazines try to persuade us that women's attitudes to nudity are now the same as men's. These centrefolds vanish just as quickly as they appear, but it has been shown that they increase overall readership by gay men.

All attempts at selling porn to women have failed although, during the late 1990s, there was an increase in the sale of semi-naked male pin-up calendars, which ended up sout-stripping the sales of female nude calendars. The buyers of nude male calendars have been shown to fall into three categories - teenage girls who want pictures of their favourite movie or rock star, women who want it as a humorous joke for one of their friends, and gay men.

It just makes me feel like what lots of men find to be the peak of physical attraction (including but not limited to the showing of cleavage) is not the same as what women find to be the peak of physical attraction. I'm not saying that men can't find a covered up women attractive, we can. Nor am I saying that no women find near-nude dudes to be the peak of physical attraction, some obviously do. But I think Square Enix is going for the peak physical attraction for at least one of their characters in each of the games and I think for men and women that leads to very different results.

From what I've seen of the new video, I think it confirms further that she is sexualised but I also think that to assume that she is restricted to being a sex object and a sex object alone is on par with me saying the same for Gladiolus. I believe they've both been sexed up, I don't believe either will end up being nothing but sex objects.

[Fox]

There hasn't been confirmation on the name Cindy or Cidney yet huh?
I'm thinking it's probably most likely Cidney, given that Cindy never shows up without her sisters, unless they are going way unexpected with the Magus Sisters this time.

Tabata confirmed that it's Cidney and that she plays the Cid role... but if the translation team miss the memo it's possible it is still possible end up being Cindy in the English version.

[Sephiroth]

There hasn't been confirmation on the name Cindy or Cidney yet huh?
I'm thinking it's probably most likely Cidney, given that Cindy never shows up without her sisters, unless they are going way unexpected with the Magus Sisters this time.

Cindy is not her (the Magus Sisters one) Japanese name. They are called Mug, Dug and Rug so sisters not being shown would not say anything but she is Cidney.

[Shorty]

So if you like all of these other things about her, it's safe to say that putting her boobs on display is an unnecessary sexualization that they could have done without because you would like her anyway regardless of whether or not her boob were showing.

I'm not going to complain if they make hot lookin' ladies, no. Is it ever necessary to do this? No. But they do it. I'm okay with that. They make hot lookin' dudes, I'm cool with that too. Boobs on display does increase physical attraction. This is one of the most commonly known things in the history of humankind and I'm shocked if you think it's not true.

Since you won't shut the smurf up about what females personally consider to be sexualized males, here you go.

absolutely NSFW


Otherwise, sorry, but a dude standing there with big muscles does not make him sexualized. It means he has big muscles. End of story.

Do you find that to be really physically attractive? If there were a character dressed like that, do you think he'd be really popular with the ladies? If so, throw him in, hell, I don't mind. But I've been told all my life that buff dudes (and that guy is muscular, don't kid yourself that Jonas has the physical condition of a regular bloke) in their underwear were not attractive. Especially when I watched WWF and WWE. So yeah, I've been coditioned by females to believe that this is not what women want.

Also, to go back to Why Men Don't Listen and Women Can't Read Maps, it generally backs up the theory that women just don't buy into this kind of thing like men do...

Nude male centerfolds come and go as women's magazines try to persuade us that women's attitudes to nudity are now the same as men's. These centrefolds vanish just as quickly as they appear, but it has been shown that they increase overall readership by gay men.

All attempts at selling porn to women have failed although, during the late 1990s, there was an increase in the sale of semi-naked male pin-up calendars, which ended up sout-stripping the sales of female nude calendars. The buyers of nude male calendars have been shown to fall into three categories - teenage girls who want pictures of their favourite movie or rock star, women who want it as a humorous joke for one of their friends, and gay men.

It just makes me feel like what lots of men find to be the peak of physical attraction (including but not limited to the showing of cleavage) is not the same as what women find to be the peak of physical attraction. I'm not saying that men can't find a covered up women attractive, we can. Nor am I saying that no women find near-nude dudes to be the peak of physical attraction, some obviously do. But I think Square Enix is going for the peak physical attraction for at least one of their characters in each of the games and I think for men and women that leads to very different results.

From what I've seen of the new video, I think it confirms further that she is sexualised but I also think that to assume that she is restricted to being a sex object and a sex object alone is on par with me saying the same for Gladiolus. I believe they've both been sexed up, I don't believe either will end up being nothing but sex objects.

I personally do not find either Joe Jonas or those photos to be physically attractive, no. You asked me to provide a photo of a male being sexualized, and that is the photo I provided. A male being sexualized. And sorry, but Joe Jonas broke the internet with those photos the same way Kim Kardashian broke the internet with her ass photos, just to a lesser degree. You just weren't in the demographic it was directed at and thus and didn't hear about it.

As I said earlier, attraction does not equal sexualization. Which you seem to still be confusing with the rest of your post, so I really have nothing else to say on the matter, except that if you take advice on what ladies prefer pased on WWF and WWE, I feel sorry for you.

[Pumpkin]

BoB, here is something I would consider sexualization of men.

It is very NSFW so I'm spoilering it, and only linking instead of actually posting the imagehttp://i.imgur.com/Cf5Nk.jpg

The men are muscular, nude (while covering their business), and also wearing hats to appeal to the "women like men in uniform" look. This image is pretty much there to sexualize those men. At least in my opinion. There's a difference between that and just a muscular dude in jeans, just like there's a difference between a curvy attractive lady and a curvy attractive lady with her boobs hanging out and groping herself, for example (not saying Cidney is doing that, just using it as an example)

[Loony BoB]

if you take advice on what ladies prefer based on WWF and WWE, I feel sorry for you.

No, that was just an example. I've been told my entire life that women don't like nudie dudies. Perhaps I have been misled, I dunno. I've also grown up in a house where my Mum would regularly draw female nudes because she felt the female body was beautiful, but rarely draw dudes the same way. This was a common theme throughout my life, especially in the art arena and through discussions online and in person.

What I can say I have learned today is that sexualisation isn't to you guys what it is/was to me. Sexualisation to me was making a character as sexy as possible (generally directed at, but not limited to, heterosexual members of the opposite gender) for no other reason than to make them as sexy as possible. For yourselves, it seems to be accentuating what are culturally defined as sexual organs - ie, breasts, bums and genitals.

It just so happens that for women, what I thought was sexualising generally ends up being exactly the same as what you guys refer to as sexualising. Not so much for men.

Essentially, things done to girls to make them appear as physically attractive to guys as possible involve sexualising the girl, because that is what, on a very raw level (like it or not) guys tend to find make a woman appear at her sexiest. I am pretty sure I'm not being sexist when I say this, but rather referring to biological and scientifically proven fact without the need to cite anything. If you really want me to, just ask, I'm sure I can find something.

However, the things done to guys to make them appear as physically attractive to girls as possible do not involve stripping him to his tighty whities, because, well, women have been shown to not subscribe to that kind of thing. See the stuff mentioned earlier, the quote from the book for citation.

So I'll concede that, based on a differing viewpoint of what sexualisation actually is, I've misunderstood what you girls were complaining about, but at the same time I will suddenly say "But hold on, how many girls are actually sexualised in that kind of way?" We don't know about Cidney's personality, but it's safe to assume she's not going to be there purely to stand there bending over in provocative positions. If you focus on clothing (which you guys have said you aren't, but I'm just putting this in for my own train of thought, before you all jump on me ), then Kimahri and co could be argued to be sexualised, when we all know that's not the case. That means it's entirely down to the emphasis on boobs. In which case I go back to my opinion of boobs not being such a freakin' big deal in the first place. They may be culturally unacceptable in some countries, but in my opinion a girl is allowed to show off her rack and it's perfectly fine, I don't count it on par with genitalia (and no FF babe has her genitalia defined to my knowledge, certainly no more than that of a guy). Finally, we go to job unsuitability and then we're back at square one again when I say "Guys don't wear job appropriate gear either, this is all being decided by some fashion chain."

It's frustrating to not really get my head around this, honestly I'm trying. Don't think my arguments are because I think you're terrible and wrong or anything, I'm legit trying to understand where you're coming from but the logic in my head doesn't really get it at the moment, and these linked sites are just so generalised that I find myself agreeing because Dead or Alive etc. are blatant sexualisation. But for Final Fantasy, I'm not seeing it the same way. I'm not rejecting your opinions, I'm just saying that I can only say what I think and/or agree with and so far the logic rollin' around in my head isn't piecing things together the same way you girls are. Maybe in time, I dunno, I'm just really confused and a little frustrated and not really seeing the same thing you ladies seem to be seeing, or not interpreting intention and/or results of said intention the same way.

If Cidney starts rubbing her boobs and moaning, or spends her entire time talking about sex, or something like that, then I will hold my hands in the air and say "You guys are right" but she hasn't done that.

...yet.

[Lawr]

At first I was really excited to see a XV thread with almost 250 posts! Until I actually read the posts.

Well, I just hope they go with Cidney and not Cindy.

[Night Fury]

Khimari is not sexualised. There is a reason for him dressing like that - tribal, and his whole race dresses like that too.

[Aulayna]

It's frustrating to not really get my head around this, honestly I'm trying. Don't think my arguments are because I think you're terrible and wrong or anything, I'm legit trying to understand where you're coming from but the logic in my head doesn't really get it at the moment, and these linked sites are just so generalised that I find myself agreeing because Dead or Alive etc. are blatant sexualisation. But for Final Fantasy, I'm not seeing it the same way. I'm not rejecting your opinions, I'm just saying that I can only say what I think and/or agree with and so far the logic rollin' around in my head isn't piecing things together the same way you girls are. Maybe in time, I dunno, I'm just really confused and a little frustrated and not really seeing the same thing you ladies seem to be seeing, or not interpreting intention and/or results of said intention the same way.

If Cidney starts rubbing her boobs and moaning, or spends her entire time talking about sex, or something like that, then I will hold my hands in the air and say "You guys are right" but she hasn't done that.

...yet.

Well let's remove all the concept and theory and put this out into face-value terms shall we?

What was that one phrase from most of the Versus XIII trailers right up until the rebranding to Final Fantasy XV?

This is a fantasy based on reality.

Now tell me, how many mechanics have you seen dressed like that in real life?

At least the clothes the guys are wearing are more believable as practical (if slightly exaggerated high-market) everyday fashion. (same with the likes of Luna and Stella)

But a mechanic dressed like that, really? You can't see why some people might feel it's a bit ludicrous? Might as well change her name to Cidney "The Mechanic" from Page 3 of The Sun.

Let me put a re-emphasis on that one point with a screenshot:



Now then, imagine that Final Fantasy games had always had female protagonists and all the major characters were always female with males filling in for support characters and non-major NPCs. Cid in all the previous games was female too.

Then this new game comes along and goes "hey guys look Cid is male this time" and all he's wearing is a Borat G-string to show off his bulge, some goggles and has a few splashes of oil on his face to warrant being called a mechanic. Pretty unbelievable right?

This is the issue here, Cidney is the first time Cid has been female and she is a) not wearing attire remotely suitable for an actual mechanic (this would potentially be a minor point, but this is a game that's supposed to be more grounded in reality after all - and the other females we've seen like Luna and Stella are modestly dressed... one could even go so far as using the word "normally" dressed) and b) has huge boobs that are gratuitiously held out in what could only be described as a gravity defying push-up bra and c) has her midriff on display, wearing hotpants AND high heeled knee-high boots. So yay, Cid is female for a change - but also had to be overly sexualised as a result. Because just putting her into mechanics overalls (ala Kaylee from FireFly) would be far too unrealistic. Right?

[Psychotic]

Daniel at this point you should just say "Actually, yeah, you know what? I love tits. It sucks that females are marginalised and over sexualised in this game but that's a price I'm willing to pay for teh b00bz."

[Shlup]

I haven't read every post and can't respond properly anyway because I'm heading into the Christmas madness and am posting on my phone, but I can see now that the issue with you, at least, Daniel, is a genuine complete not understanding what "se ualized" means. That's fine; I will be happy to give you examples and help clarify the difference. First it would help if you would take your list of male FF examples and explain how they fit the definition of sexualized.

[Loony BoB]

Psy: xD As much as I love boobs, and have no denying of that, I'm not "wanting to marginalise women because boobs", I'm just tryin' to get my head around all this in a way that helps me understand where the ladies are coming from better because a loooot of stuff in this thread has had my head going around in circles.

This is a fantasy based on reality.

Now tell me, how many mechanics have you seen dressed like that in real life?

None. Haven't seen many soldiers in the real world who enter combat dressed in an open jacket either - silly costumes is something that I consider normal in FF. And often silly = for the sake of increasing physical attractiveness or general "coolness".

Then this new game comes along and goes "hey guys look Cid is male this time" and all he's wearing is a Borat G-string to show off his bulge, some goggles and has a few splashes of oil on his face to warrant being called a mechanic. Pretty unbelievable right?

Well, a borat suit isn't exactly very attractive by any length. If it was a guy dressed in, say, boxers of some kind, I'd think it was really silly. But I wouldn't get upset, I'd just think it's a stupid outfit for a mechanic. Of course, I see guys working on cars with no shirt in the media all the time which may not help the issue there (I'm stupid when it comes to that end of things) and it probably doesn't help my natural understanding of this stuff when guys, if anything, might not mind being treated like sex objects every now and then. >_> Or at least I wouldn't. I'm not what many people refer to as sexy so on the few occasions a girl has looked at me and made some kind of comment about my physical appearance I've been pretty chuffed (sadly to this day it is limited to my hands, my abs when I was 15 and shivering from a cold pool - RIP my 15 year old abs - and my butt which I never understand because to this day I just don't understand why people like butts).

This is the issue here, Cidney is the first time Cid has been female and she is a) not wearing attire remotely suitable for an actual mechanic (this would potentially be a minor point, but this is a game that's supposed to be more grounded in reality after all - and the other females we've seen like Luna and Stella are modestly dressed... one could even go so far as using the word "normally" dressed) and b) has huge boobs that are gratuitiously held out in what could only be described as a gravity defying push-up bra.

Experience tells me otherwise when girls say something like this. For her frame, they're definitely big, though.

So yay, Cid is female for a change - but also had to be overly sexualised as a result. Because just putting her into mechanics overalls (ala Kaylee from FireFly) would be far too unrealistic. Right?

To be fair, Kaylee - looks aside - was a pretty sexual creature when compared to Cindy.

But yeah, I get where you're coming from with the "historic" stuff. It's the first time she's been sexualised and she's a girl. I would call it a bad choice by SE because of the natural backlash it was going to get. If it were the second girl, or if a Cid had previously been a mechanic and topless, would there have been the same fuss? I do wonder. As for "Fantasy based on reality" - I take that with a gigantic pinch of salt (and I'm grateful it's not set in reality) because aside from the shape of cities and the fact that while the clothes are absurd for what they're doing, they're still clothes you see in the real world... it's all still blatantly fantasy. Which is a relief for me.

I get this argument a lot better than I get the rest of the sexualising arguments vs. gender arguments. I think that's the part that has me thrown for a loop.

I do think a lot of this comes from a completely different way of looking at sexualisation between genders, though. Firstly that guys just don't mind being sexualised nearly as much as girls (probably for social/cultural/historic reasons), secondly that boobs are something that differ between genders and therefore there is a kind of double standard based on that (which I personally disagree with but accept that I can't snap my fingers and change society, culture or decades of history and beliefs or whatever), and finally that we typically (according to studies!) find different kinds of states of dress more/less attractive than each other.

But as for "was it a bad call?" - yeah, if they wanted to get someone skimpy clothing they should probably have gone for a different character, I guess, to avoid the historic ties to Cid and a backlash based on that.

However, if there were no historic ties to Cid to consider, if I had never known of Cid's history... I don't think I'd have blinked. If it were any other character, I wonder if anyone would have blinked. I certainly don't think that it's something to do with wearing reasonable clothes for a job because that's something that is par for the course at Final Fantasy and this being a "fantasy based on reality" doesn't mean all the clothes are going to be reasonable. I'd say the guys don't all have reasonable clothing, one girl so far doesn't, and I'm pretty confident we'll see more characters with stupid clothing before we're done with 'em.

Shlup (you snuck in after I'd typed up the above): I think I get it a little better now although I'm still not 100% certain. Is it simply a case of sexualised = has what are considered sexual organs being "on display" when there is no story-relevant reason to do so? So it's like... Tifa is fine because she works at a bar so wears clothes typical to that job (although the question could be raised whether they should be relevant to that job, but that's waaaaay off topic), Kimahri is fine because he's tribal, Fran is fine because she's tribal, Vanille is fine because it's some special attire for a ceremony she was going through for her tribal thing, but Rikku in a bikini for FFX-2 is not, Kuja in a codpiece while acting as a gundealer is not, Ultimecia's boobs are blatantly sexualised and you can throw your Cidney into the pile for the reasons mentioned throughout this thread?

Something like that, I'm gathering.

[Ayen]

If it were any other character, I wonder if anyone would have blinked.

They would have.

[Karifean]

If it were any other character, I wonder if anyone would have blinked.

They would have.

Significantly fewer people though.