Final Fantasy VIII vs. Final Fantasy XIII

[Wolf Kanno]

persona 3 is that dating sim right

sorry wolf but this conversation is about rpgs.

(SPOILER)Or maybe it was Persona 4 that was the dating sim. Either way.

P3 is more RPG than XIII is. You know character choices the ability to explore towns, likable cast, coherent plot, awesome battle system that actually requires thinking... The irony is that XIII steals a lot of ideas from P3 and fails on every account to understand why it worked in P3.

And Squall is just one character. Unless he's the best written protagonist ever, he cannot salvage an entire playable cast of unnecessary and unlikable assholes. I have never seen a worse cast in a JRPG with the exception of Star Ocean 3. Oh and Squall is decidedly NOT the best written protagonist ever so he does not save his game.

He's not the best written main character but I would say he's the best written main character from an FF. I also happen to like VIII's cast, at least they knew how to stay in the background to avoid outstaying their welcome unlike XIII's cast that can best be summed up as:

Lightning: I'M ANGRY! *Punches Snow and gives bad advice to minors*

Snow: I'M THE HERO! I'M GOING TO SAVE SERAH! SERAH WANTS US TO SAVE COCOON! SERAH'S FOCUS WAS TO SAVE COCOON! Oafghff *sound he makes when Lightning punches him in the face, which is almost every damn cutscene the two are featured in together*

Hope: I lost my mommy! I don't know what to do... Snow killed her even though I totally saw him try to save her but I'm an eight year old trapped in a teen body and will rewrite reality in my head to justify all my ANGST! Oh he saved me, he's like a cool big bro...

Sahz: I'm looking for my son, have you seen him? Oh let me act like Eddie Murphy for a few minutes and be all like "Damn Lightning, you crazy gurl!" Now I'm going to kill myself, Psych!

Vanille: HI! My name is Vanille, I'm going to spend the next thirty hours being painfully suspicious until you realize almost everything about me before I reveal it because I only know that subtlety is a word in a dictionary. I'll also be responsible for all of the uncomfortable T&A in this game, just like Rikku did in FFX, so all the pedophiles that play these games will get their money's worth. I caused all the problems in the plot and wish I wasn't always being rescued but I'll keep making the same mistake until I take part in the game's Deus ex Machina that had no foreshadowing whatsoever and then you'll have to feel sad for me just because that's what the writer intended but didn't understand how to do so. Tee-hee.

Fang; I'm going to pop up early and be mysterious and interesting until I join the party and do jack trout for the plot. Oh, I might also be a lesbian. Maybe...

Seriously, when you can explain how these husks of overused tropes and bad dialogue are somehow better than VIII's subdued but knows their place cast of cronies, we can begin having a real debate on this subject.

[Fynn]

Woof woof woof woof!

[Forsaken Lover]

okay, to start off with, every FF is full of cliches and overused tropes. That's kinda its thing. FF has never been revolutionary when it comes to writing. I think the only thing that might count is FFVII's depiction of poverty and the working class. I don't think many JRPGs before it had truly dealt with that topic.

Secondly, all you've done is do what I can do with every FFVIII character. Anybody can sum up characters they don't like in that kind of manner.

Irvine: I got assigned to this super important mission even though i always choke when it comes to actually shooting things. People try to write it off as me actually not wanting to shoot Edea because she's like my mom BUT THIS IS NEVER SAID OR HINTED AT ANYWHERE IN THE GAME AND IS JUST AS "CANON" AS SQUALL IS DEAD.

Also after that one mission I fail horribly at I will never be relevant again or develop or anything.

See, simple.

I don't care how poorly you think it's done. Character Development is the only thing that makes a character interesting when you have to deal with them in a 30+ hour game. THEY HAVE TO DO SOMETHING!!!!!! The FFVIII cast don't do trout. They take up space, they waste your time and that is all there is to it. There's no reasonf or Irvine or Zell to be there. Chop them out of the story and what changes? It's like you got an FFII or FFIV guest party member but you're stuck with them for the rest of the game for no reason.

That is a common complaint of JRPGs in general ie. "Why The Hell Are They Even Here" Syndrome. It makes people hate Vaan but at least Vaan had character development. There's no reason for half the FFVIII cast to be there. They don't bring in unique gameplay, they don't have any plot relevance. I don't care if you're okay with them wasting your time, they were wasting MY time. Every moment they spoke, I wanted to shoot all of them. They were all stupid, they wer eall incompetent and they were all IRRELEVANT. They could go home, they could go jump off a cliff, they could do ANYTHING. There is no reason for them to stay in your party.

As badly as FFXIII's plot was handled, at least your entire group being fugitives made it so you didn't suffer from the dreaded why the smurf are you even here question. Everyone from Lightning (who I hate) to Snow (whom I love) had perfect justification for doing what they were doing. That automatically makes them better than the FFVIII cast in my book.

This is, ultimately, what you are saying.


You are supporting FFVIII's cast because, while they were all worthless stereotypes with no development or plot relevance, they "didn't get in your way." You are actively supporting lazy writing because, in your view, one-dimensional characters are superior to poorly done three-dimensional characters. So writers shouldn't even try to do things like character development because at the end of the day, they might still suck.

[Fynn]

The truth is poor writing and behaviors that resemble nothing a human would do hurt much more than characters who talk too little, because then your mind gets to fill the blanks and it's not quite as jarring.

[Psychotic]

I definitely think that FFXIII had a better, more-developed cast of protagonists than FFVIII. All of them had development and personalities - you might not like the personalities, but they had them - which is more than you can say for, say, Zell, who just had a gimmick of HOT DOGS IM GONNA FEIGHT U rather than a personality, and someone Quistis, who was just kinda there. XIII had inter character conflict, development and growth, and while WK's summaries are funny, I think they do a disservice to the characters. They start off not liking each other and we see their friendships and bonds grow over time, and whatever else we can say XIII did wrong I can't fault it there.

I'll sum it up by asking (and answering) two questions about two immature angry babbies. Is Hope the same person he was at the end of FFVIII as he was at the start? No. Is Zell the same person he was at the end of FFVIII as he was at the start? Yes.

VIII's cast, at least they knew how to stay in the background to avoid outstaying their welcome unlike XIII's cast

I agree, but where I absolutely and vehemently disagree with you is that this is a good thing. It's atrocious. Look, in a movie like Star Wars fine, the focus is on the main trio and we don't need to have an emotional arc of discovery with Chewie. Similarly with Final Fantasy VIII the central theme of the story is Squall and Rinoa... except it's a 50 hour game, not a two hour movie. Why bother having the other four characters and have a party of just Squall and Rinoa instead? For gameplay purposes? That would just about sum it up, they were just tools for combat and you may as well have replaced them with battle robots. Why should we, as an audience, give a trout if our heroes succeed or fail or die if they're so bland and pointless? What are the stakes? Why are we invested?

I did say protagonists in my opening sentence for a reason though, as VIII's villains were infinitely better. I don't know what the smurf was going on with XIII's villains. I don't really even remember who they were - Jihl? Yaag? Barthandelus? PSICOM? I can't bring myself to care. Compare that to Seifer and Edea, or Galbadia as a faction and so on and they just knock it out of the park. Even NORG and Ultimecia were better villains than anyone in XIII.

On the overall story, I think both went to hell in the final third and the writers ran out of ideas in both. VIII's was better though, in a better and more relatable world. And although I cba to go into it more as it's breakfast time and I've just spent ages typing this instead of eating, I do think VIII is the better game and XIII is probably the worst numbered FF, so

[Scotty_ffgamer]

I think XIII had a better developed cast, but I also think that they were pretty poorly written and mostly over dramatic. I liked that VIII's supporting protagonists didn't really take themselves too seriously and provided some good comedic moments. They were mostly static characters outside of Squall and Rinoa, but I also never really felt they needed to be different people by the end. I also find it hard to be bothered in this instance of "Why are these people together throughout the game" because I think it's fairly easy to explain. They were schoolmates that ended up being put on the same mercenary team. There isn't more to it than that and there doesn't NEED to be more than that for most of the game. A good chunk of the game is them working on their missions together, and this ends up all going wrong for them. It diverges from that point, but they work together to make it back to Garden and to protect it. Once they've all made it back to Garden, it can be questionable on why all of the side people are still there, but by that point they are probably comfortable as a team and have built a bit of a friendship. You also have the reveal of being childhood friends which I'm sure they'd want to explore.

I'm not saying these are all fantastically written parts or anything, but I just think the characters being there for most of the game is consistent with what the game presents you. I also enjoy the characters better despite acknowledging that the protagonists of XIII are better developed (but not better written). VIII's villains are way better though. It's world is way better as well. I also think that despite it's issues that it's story is told way better (and Laguna's story is better than either XIII or VIII's main story). Also the way VIII's story and world is laid out with a lot of it's weird aspects, it becomes open to a lot of interesting interpretations and analysis. I don't care if Squall is Dead as a theory isn't "canon;" I think it's just as valid of an interpretation as taking the story at face value or any of the other interesting theories out there. This comes from looking at it in the same kind of lens that scholars use to interpret literature. XIII really doesn't do much of that until you start bringing in the sequels.

I also think that saying VIII's gameplay is broken isn't very accurate. Broken gameplay is not the same as having the ability to break the game if you choose. I can accept the criticism that all of the characters are the same outside of their Limit Breaks, but what this game gives you is full customization of your characters. You could make your characters to be different if you wish, but there is no real reason to outside of maybe creating your own challenges. You could stay level 1ish and just boost all of your stats to make the game easy. You could level up to 100 and keep all of your stats low to create more of a challenge. You can break it or you can make your life a living hell while playing or do something in between. I just can't accept the idea that this game is broken because it take away grinding for levels and just moves that grinding to grinding for spells to junction. It's not really any more broken than any other FF game I feel. This part just depends on what your looking for from the gameplay. I can see why you wouldn't like it, but I like it for the same reasons you don't like it. Outside of the battling mechanics, you also have a world to explore in VIII, and I never felt like what I was doing was pointless like the battles in XIII at the beginning where you can't even level up or anything for a few hours.XIII was just too closed off in nearly every aspect for way too long.

[Wolf Kanno]

Okay, if you want a more serious answer to the question about cast and character development, then let me explain why you can't compare the two games like this. You're basically comparing two different writing styles, namely first and third person narrative, and trying to make an argument that third person narrative is objectively superior, which is not really an argument we can make objectively. I can explain to you how XIII is a terrible third person narrative compared to other games that handled it better, and also explain how VIII is not a bad first person perspective narrative game, though I would agree that some games have handled the concept better.

Basically, VIII's cast isn't shallow, you're basically complaining that they lack focus and purpose because the story never bothers to explain their raison d'etre, but the issue here is that you fail to understand that their only purpose in the plot is to support and serve as a foil to Squall because the story is all about him. If you fleshed out the side characters, you then risk having the story become too muddled with different narratives, and in a story about a specific character's growth, that is a no no.

Think about the issues with novel version of the Hobbit versus the film adaptions. The book is all about Bilbo, there is no Necromancer subplot or Thorin dealing with the curse of his family and his rivalry with some Orc. The dwarves barely get much characterization in the novel because their whole purpose in the plot is to serve as the companions to Bilbo and help him grow as a character through his misadventures. The film adaptions struggle to be a coherent piece because it's trying to stay faithful to the original intentions of the book, but also adding all this extra content to make it feel more epic by adding in unnecessary subplots to better connect it to a film adaption long since past, instead it makes the main narrative point of the book feel disjointed and rushed. Thorin's story isn't even that good and he worked better as lazy delegator along with the other dwarves. In fact the films miss the whole theme of the book about Bilbo, the least likely adventurer of the group, being the only one to rise to the occasion on the journey; as opposed to the dwarves that seem more savvy adventurers, but were really no better than Bilbo. The Hobbit is not the longest novel but it's pretty long for a YA novel and it still has a strong story despite Bilbo being the only character of the main group who gets any characterization, so I disagree that having a 40 hour game means that everyone must have some purpose and character development when it doesn't serve the narrative purpose.

Squall and his companions are the same way. Their personalities are meant to be strong and optimistic to counter all the things that Squall is not. Quistis establishes who Squall is in the early sections of the game as a prodigy who is only held back by his loner attitude. Zell is openly emotional but hotheaded, causing problems that Squall has to think through. Selphie is carefree and childlike as opposed to Squall who acts much older than his age and is very serious. Irvine is more confident when dealing with people and the friendliest character, especially to the ladies, whereas Squall is abrasive and socially awkward around others. Rinoa is meant to be the one to drag Squall out of his protective shell. Laguna represents what Squall is not but at the same time they are the same, just opposite in personality. The characters become less relevant after the first two discs because Squall is growing as a person and learning to open up. The game is not about Zell or Irvine's growth, it's about Squall, and their only purpose is to be the foil that gets him out of his shell, which is why all their characterization is defined by their interactions with Squall, as opposed to some personal hangup they need resolved.

This is why you really can't compare the two because XIII's cast is an ensemble cast with focus spread around because it's about the characters dealing with their troutty situation. The reason why I like VIII's cast more is because I feel they serve their purpose in their story and all of them are quite frankly charming. XIII's cast is overly melodramatic and their arcs are rushed and filled with manipulative writing to create drama as opposed to letting their personal stories really get to the player.

Lightning has all of these anger issues because she's been an over protective mother figure all her life and then spends one chapter poisoning Hope's mind into vengeance only to realize that maybe she's being a bad influence after it's too late. She doesn't resolve this though, she just suddenly realizes that if she was maybe more understanding to Serah and Hope, her problems wouldn't be so bad but there is no real moment for her that really defines that this has taken part. It has no dramatic climax, Hope's story is mostly resolved without her input and Serah doesn't really appear again until the end of the game. She just has an epiphany at the start of Chapter 7 and that's kind of the end of her characterization.

Snow is basically a hero wannabe who wants to save Serah but once the intro is finally over and the plot starts proper, he's written out of the plot for several chapters until he shows up to show that's he's really bad at being a hero and Hope is justified to stop him. He then suddenly angsts about not saving Hope's mom in a critical moment for Hope's characterization and then saves Hope's life. After this, everything is forgiven because Snow's heart is in the right place and yeah whatever. So what exactly is Snow's real character arc here? I mean he basically realizes that he's doing more damage than good, gets forgiven when people see his heart is in the right place and yeah... again it's a revelation that comes out of nowhere for the character, made worse than Lightning's scenario since Snow is MIA for several chapters so it's not like he has any real build-up to it.

Hope's story is not bad as much as it is rushed and overly melodramatic. The transition from confused and emotionally unstable to "I MUST SEEKETH REVENGE!" was awkward due to the bad writing filled with too many coincidences and Lightning's troutty personality to make the transition feel natural. Again, the hardest part for me is not comparing it to Ken Amada's story in Persona 3 which was handled better by having several of the glaring logical errors of Hope's scenario not be present or actually accounted for. The real problem with Hope's story is the 180 turn it takes when it's resolved. Going from seething hatred and constant angst, to moody but mostly optimistic is very jarring and makes his drama feel fake. The other issue with Hope's character is that moody is about all we know about him. His characterization before his mother's death is mostly non-existent outside of Japan only prequel novels so it's difficult to get a ring on how much turmoil the death is causing him because it's the only thing that defines him, but the player is never really given any context as to why this is a big deal beyond playing to the player's empathy of what it must feel like to lose a mother. In fact this is probably the biggest problem with XIII's drama overall, is that is plays too much to the idea that the audience is overly empathetic as opposed to people that expect logical consistency.

Sahz has a very original story arc and frankly I will agree he's the game's best character when he's not reduced to being the party's token minority comic relief character, but I'm still pissy about the attempted suicide, because it was so manipulative and so quickly swept under the rug as unimportant. It's obvious that it was written less for being a defining moment for the character and story, like Cele's fateful suicide attempt was, and more played for shock value. Again, the story is written to prey on the player's emotions rather than actually be a story about exploring feelings and issues. It's the main reason why so much of the plot's drama feels fake, because it is.

Vanille is a walking plot device and her only character moment is confronting the fact she is, which like Snow, is forgiven and forgotten as quickly as it comes up. Her whole confrontation with her Eidolon comes out of nowhere unless you read the DataLog, which largely tells her story better, as it keeps bringing in new info the cutscenes don't feel are important. Not to mention the whole scene is laughable since Fang is the most shallow character in the story and thus neither Fang or the player are concerned about it being a big deal.

Fang is a fine example of a character who doesn't really serve any purpose in the plot that Vanille already doesn't fill. She's there to get Vanille and protect her and it's resolved the very next chapter after she joins. She then disappears into the background as the more angsty characters hog the limelight to bemoan there fate; and justify why they are going to fap about for several hours in Pulse before the main villain shows up and convinces them to do the very thing they said they weren't going to do at the start of the game. She really has no character arc because she gets little screen time and little context unlike Vanille who at least was around since the beginning to be living plot device.

So now here's my issue. Do I go with the cast that has no real story but serves as a foil to help rationalize the growth of the central character whom the whole plot is about, or choose the game who does have a cast with motives but are largely over-the-top and manipulative to hide the fact the writer doesn't really know what they are doing? So yeah, VIII's cast is the better written cast in my opinion, they're simply not the type of cast you wanted, but it doesn't change the fact they do serve a narrative purpose in the story, even if it was simply to help one character get more growth and be background support.

[FFNut]

I bought both games at release, but after the intro they went back in the case and put in a box. Didn't like either at the start. I may try VIII again after the replay of IX I'm planing to do. However XIII will remain for some time yet as it left me saying what the noodles(edited for content) is this trash.

[Mr. Carnelian]

Lightning: I'M ANGRY! *Punches Snow and gives bad advice to minors*

Snow: I'M THE HERO! I'M GOING TO SAVE SERAH! SERAH WANTS US TO SAVE COCOON! SERAH'S FOCUS WAS TO SAVE COCOON! Oafghff *sound he makes when Lightning punches him in the face, which is almost every damn cutscene the two are featured in together*

Hope: I lost my mommy! I don't know what to do... Snow killed her even though I totally saw him try to save her but I'm an eight year old trapped in a teen body and will rewrite reality in my head to justify all my ANGST! Oh he saved me, he's like a cool big bro...

Sahz: I'm looking for my son, have you seen him? Oh let me act like Eddie Murphy for a few minutes and be all like "Damn Lightning, you crazy gurl!" Now I'm going to kill myself, Psych!

Vanille: HI! My name is Vanille, I'm going to spend the next thirty hours being painfully suspicious until you realize almost everything about me before I reveal it because I only know that subtlety is a word in a dictionary. I'll also be responsible for all of the uncomfortable T&A in this game, just like Rikku did in FFX, so all the pedophiles that play these games will get their money's worth. I caused all the problems in the plot and wish I wasn't always being rescued but I'll keep making the same mistake until I take part in the game's Deus ex Machina that had no foreshadowing whatsoever and then you'll have to feel sad for me just because that's what the writer intended but didn't understand how to do so. Tee-hee.

Fang; I'm going to pop up early and be mysterious and interesting until I join the party and do jack trout for the plot. Oh, I might also be a lesbian. Maybe...

I would also include Serah and Barthandalus.

Serah: I'm really annoying and my only purpose in the plot is to serve as a damsel in distress. I'm getting married at eighteen to a man who I've apparently known for less than a year, but I am surprised when my sister disapproves. Why, oh why won't she validate my relationship with this older man with bad hair who has no job? I only get character development in the sequel.

Barthandalus: I want to destroy the world, because Daddy issues. Destroying everything that my absent father figure made will make him love me, right?

To be honest, I actually quite like the character development in XIII (apart from Serah, I did dislike her in XIII). The characters are quite fun to mock, though.

[Bolivar]

It's interesting how VIII and XIII were both designed by the same principal game developers and both received the same divisive reaction, especially from fans of the 2D games. But FFVIII is obviously the more significant title - it was one of the most ambitious games of all time and intentionally went for the RPG throne, while XIII was made after they had already cemented their status as grandmasters and just wanted to ship an entertaining game for the new consoles.

VIII was driven and defined by the lofty goals of its team - to tell a coming of age story, a "fantasy based in reality," a tale of two protagonists, the love story, child soldiers. But the most striking ambition of VIII was its gameplay innovations. Unlike other RPGs which send players off into static dungeons, FFVIII thrust it's players into situations. Abducting a president on his train; assassinating a sorceress during a parade; fending off the Lunatic Pandora throughout a futuristic city. Square was trailblazing the future of RPGs and gaming in those days and unfortunately it's something we've lost in the console generations since. When I play the modern WRPGs that are "on top," we've somehow gone back to fighting monsters in caves again.

Unfortunately XIII did not get that creative drive because all of its lead designers were experimenting on the handheld front, which was the future for Japan at the time. Instead, they made a demo where you fight monsters in gorgeous environments and decided to set out making a game based around that concept, with a serviceable story built around it. I could actually conceive that XIII had a more rewarding plot, as every character has their own unique motivation and is fighting for someone they love. I enjoyed how the game paired them off and had them play off each other's personalities. I didn't mind the lack of strong antagonists because the true conflict took place within the characters and the knowledge of what they might become.

I liked XIII quite a lot but it was not as ambitious as the FFs of yore, least of all Final Fantasy VIII.

[Bright Shield]

Not really a big fan of either game, but VIII was decent at least. XIII is one of the worst JRPGs ever, with one of the worst casts in gaming.

I'm with Wolf all the way on this.

[Ayen]

It's interesting how VIII and XIII were both designed by the same principal game developers and both received the same divisive reaction, especially from fans of the 2D games. But FFVIII is obviously the more significant title - it was one of the most ambitious games of all time and intentionally went for the RPG throne, while XIII was made after they had already cemented their status as grandmasters and just wanted to ship an entertaining game for the new consoles.

Really? Because everything I read suggested they wanted XIII to be the next Final Fantasy VII.

[Bolivar]

Like what?

They paid homage to VII in certain ways - every environment was different from the last and continued pushing the story forward but certainly they did not set out to realign the boundaries of the medium - like they consciously did in VII and VIII.

[Ayen]

Like what?

They paid homage to VII in certain ways - every environment was different from the last and continued pushing the story forward but certainly they did not set out to realign the boundaries of the medium - like they consciously did in VII and VIII.

In an interview with one of the developers on the game either about Lightning or something else who said something along the lines of "We wanted it to be widely well receive as FFVII." It could have been taken out of context, but no one ever challenged it, so I never questioned it until now.

Thinking about it more that might have been more about the Fabula Nova Crystallis Final Fantasy than any one specific game.

[Bolivar]

Every developer wants their game to be a success and putting a strong female heroine front and center is definitely in line with the broad appeal Final Fantasy has always enjoyed. However, all I was saying is VIII was a game where they consciously pushed the envelope on game design. I remember them claiming they were streamlining the RPG experience in XIII, which they did, but I don't think they pretended to be making a transformative work of art.