Tunnel

[Serapy]

Here's some extra information about the TC tunnel in this link: http://forums.eyesonff.com/final-fantasy-viii/114333-tunnel-tc.html

But recently, I just found out that it wasn't just black birds that were travelling through the tunnel. Here's what I found:

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/9353/whitebirds.jpg

So, it goes like this:

1) Time Compression starts.
2) Everything gets deformed; existing dimensions dripping into own liquid spheres.
3) Squall seen falling into the Ocean.
3) Then we get to see the Sky from other side of the Ocean.
4) A lot of black birds start appearing in the 'evening' sky.
5) The black birds start flying around together and then start forming into a tunnel.
6) The black birds travelling through the tunnel.
7) Some lightening strikes, the black birds then convert to white birds!
8) Hello, Ultimecia Castle.

This shows that the birds CAN change thier own form (from black to white or from white to black)
What does this say about Rinoa (White wings) and Ultimecia (Black wings) ? ;););););););););););););););););)

[Kyros]

nothing

[Serapy]

It's ironic how the birds (at the end of the tunnel) brought you to Ultimecia's Castle, such birds that brought you there were White. And then Rinoa along Squall and Co. won (defeating Ulti). I wonder if this has something to do with Destiny?

As for the birds changing colour, it makes sense. When you watch Squall's FMV. You could see some parts of Rinoa turn black, and then turn white in the next second, rinse and repeat. Not to mention that one of the splitting images was that of Ultimecia.

Ultimecia possessed Rinoa... and eviled it up (Rinoa's wings turned black.)
But what about the other way around? Rinoa possessing Ultimecia and Ultimecia's wings turning white?

[Darth Cid]

It's nothing, you're pouring too much depth into an acid trip FMV.

[Serapy]

If it's part of the plot, then it's not nothing!

[leader of mortals]

You seem to have a lot of trouble with confusing atmosphere with plot. If I am watching a movie, and it is dark and thundering outside, and then a killer attacks, the killer is now made of lightning? No, the thunder is only there for atmoshpere, to scare people and to set the mood. If the thunder was not there, the killer would still attack.

How are these connected, you might ask? Atmosphere! The birds creating a tunnel and turning from white to black creates a very strong mood and is there to amaze the players of the game. Nothing more.

[Serapy]

The connection between Rinoa and Ultimecia is part of the plot.

Rinoa has White Wings. And if you look at her back, it looks like the wings of a bird.
Ultimecia has Black Wings. And if you look at her back, it looks like the wings of a bird.

Yet, you see living white birds and black birds in this tunnel. The lightning being struck was what triggered the black birds to change into white birds.

Therefore, they are all connected. The birds are here to represent something.

[Darth Cid]

Congratulations, you found the secret message. That FFVIII isn't about time or love, but about birds.

Look, I understand you have passion for a video game, but I see what symbolism on accident in "This guy are sick." being a typo in translation and I'm not even a big fan of VII, then I see in the entire context on FFVIII, they don't mean to shove hidden symbolism in this game.

[Serapy]

The wings are a two-sided symbolism. Just like Ultimecia's castle. This castle is a representation of Artemisia's castle that was created in memory of Mausolus.

In real life, Artemisia did exist a long time ago (in Greek times).
In history, there are two different Artemisias (Artemisia I of Caria and Artemisia II of Caria). I believe that Ultimecia is the representation of Artemisia II. From now on, I'm declaring Artemisia II as Artemisia.

Artemisia was a daughter of Hecatomnus.
King Mausolus (the ruler of Caria) was a son of Hecatomnus too.
At one point, Artemisia married Mausolus. They very much loved each other. Just like Squall and Rinoa.

Artemisia had an extraordinary grief (very very very very upset and angry) at the death of her husband Mausolus (he died young) and she went into despair. In FFVIII, Ultimecia also was in despair (crazy).
After his death, Artemisia drank Mausolus's ashes, all in proving herself that she survived Mausolus, similar to FFVIII, Squall almost died (revived by Rinoa, basically she survived him too).
Artemisia has built the tomb (Mausoleum of Maussollos) to honour Mausolus. Similar to Ultimecia's castle (assuming Squall died after the game) and it has a lion statue (a representation of great strength and pride). The Ultimecia castle may don't look exactly the same as the Artemisia's tomb but the notions are the same. If this is false, why do you think Ultimecia made her own castle?
Since Mausolus's death, Artemisia gained powers off him and she basically wanted to rule. Similar to FFVIII, Ultimecia (inside Edea) implied that she wanted to rule (becoming the reign).

This VIII game has a lot of symbolisms just like the other FF games.

[Darth Cid]

This VIII game has a lot of symbolisms just like the other FF games.

Well, first off, trying to say symbolism in a Final Fantasy game is directly connected to real life is pushing it. Now, I have to ask why do you not show us symbolism in other Final Fantasies?

I'm sure people would still disagree with you about your ideas, but it would interesting to see what you would think up about other FFs, but as of right now, you're only giving insight on FFVIII, and if memory serves, it's insight in one disc of FFVIII.

[Serapy]

This VIII game has a lot of symbolisms just like the other FF games.

Well, first off, trying to say symbolism in a Final Fantasy game is directly connected to real life is pushing it. Now, I have to ask why do you not show us symbolism in other Final Fantasies?

The Final Fantasy games actually contain religious and mythological (lol dogma) pieces.

If something in VIII that appears once in a while, keeping in mind that the game tells nothing of its importance, then it's bound to be a symbolism.

I'm sorry I don't play the other FF games that much (apart from VII but not enough to make out of it). I'm only interested in this game. I'm sure that someone else have voiced thier findings that resemble certain things in the other FF games. Research...



I'm sure people would still disagree with you about your ideas, but it would interesting to see what you would think up about other FFs

LOL! I've been here since April 06 and for the life of me, I cannot count how many people that have disagreed with me so far. It's very inevitable that when you voice something so fresh on the Internet, someone is bound to disagree with you.



but as of right now, you're only giving insight on FFVIII, and if memory serves, it's insight in one disc of FFVIII.

It doesn't matter if my 'insight' came from this disc or the other disc. There are four discs mainly because of memory managment. The same plot affects all of the discs.

But either way, you can see Rinoa's wings earlier (Disc 3 and 2, I think) As well as her finger sign in Disc 1 and 4.

[leader of mortals]

LOL! I've been here since April 06 and for the life of me, I cannot count how many people that have disagreed with me so far. It's very inevitable that when you voice something so fresh on the Internet, someone is bound to disagree with you.

It isn't that what you are saying is new, it is because you base all of your opinions, which you regard as absolute facts(which they aren't), are based off of nothing more than illogical, unrelated, unimportant pieces of the game. You may think of us as mean and cruel for not accepting your opinions, when in reality you are the one that is mean and cruel for not listening to anyone other than yourself, and people who agree with you.

[Barraza]

No, it proves the R=U theory.

The birds changing from black to white right before the arrival at Ultimecia's castle just shows that the developers were stressing that Ultimecia is actually good (because deep down she's Rinoa) and that her castle is meant to be good, because that's the place where she and Squall were supposed to meet.

[leader of mortals]

No, I still say it is there only for atmosphere, I believe you both are reading far too much into this.

[Serapy]

Um, your post is confusing but



It isn't that what you are saying is new, it is because you base all of your opinions, which you regard as absolute facts(which they aren't)

I never once said that my opinions were facts. Please educate me where I have said so.

And actually, if you post something that's not usually common, there's always someone to disagree with you. Do you actually expect every single person on Earth to agree with your next statement? No, that's impossible!


, are based off of nothing more than illogical, unrelated, unimportant pieces of the game.

Illogical? Please elaborate.
Unrelated, how? All my posts are usually VIII related.
Unimportant pieces? That depends on your interpretation on the game, really.
I consider these pieces important simply because I have a different interpretation.



You may think of us as mean and cruel for not accepting your opinions,

Never thought like that. It's actually illogical to expect agreements from other people just because you view something differently.



when in reality you are the one that is mean and cruel for not listening to anyone other than yourself.

I'm mean and cruel because I have a different opinion / interpretation? Huh, what? So, if I have the same opinion or interpretation as you, does that mean I'm not mean or cruel? ... This doesn't make sense.


No, I still say it is there only for atmosphere, I believe you both are reading far too much into this.

Yet you have read far too much into my 'personality'.


No, it proves the R=U theory.

The birds changing from black to white right before the arrival at Ultimecia's castle just shows that the developers were stressing that Ultimecia is actually good (because deep down she's Rinoa) and that her castle is meant to be good, because that's the place where she and Squall were supposed to meet.

Yep. I'm surprised I have never heard of the 'birds changing' before, until today ...

[Skyblade]

Y'know, while there is a clear theme of light versus darkness, this game is pretty much the only one I've seen where the imagery is used to say that both sides are the same. I mean, Rinoa and Ulti as we see them in the game are opposites in every way. From the imagery with the wings, to their goals (fighting to protect and be with loved ones to fighting to eradicate all others), to their personalities. Normally this would indicate that Rinoa and Ulti are completely different, but instead, it is used by people to say that they are the same. Why?

Hell, Seifer and Squall have the whole equal and opposite thing going to. They both wield gunblades, they both have scars across their face, going in opposite directions. OMG, they must be the same individual.

Ulti and Rinoa are about as different as two people can be. Why do people insist on using this as a reason to support the R=U theory?

[leader of mortals]

For illogical, look at your "Sealing Rinoa" thread...

For unrelated, Artemesia, motives of evil people are often the same

For unimportant, I refer you back to your "Sealing Rinoa" thread.

For thinking of everything as fact, I refer you yet again to "Sealing Rinoa", it is obviously not an R, and yet you continue to press the issue.

You may think I am being hypocritical, and I will agree.

I don't believe you actually believe in your own theorys, and you are only making these threads for fun, to get a quick, negative response out of us. This is my definition of a troll.

[Skyblade]

I don't believe you actually believe in your own theorys, and you are only making these threads for fun, to get a quick, negative response out of us. This is my definition of a troll.

Not to mention he made four of them in about ten minutes, all on the same topic (wild conspiracies gathered from a split second of freeze-frame), which makes it spamming as well as trolling.

[Serapy]

For illogical, look at your "Sealing Rinoa" thread...

I posted a thread with the intention of finding out what's the second word after SEALING. <- Don't see how that's illogical.
If it says SEALING RINOA. It would mean that Esthar sealed her. <- Don't see how that's illogical.
If it says SEALING ADEL. It would mean Esthar sealed her at some point. <- Don't see how that's illogical.



For unrelated, Artemesia, motives of evil people are often the same

You're claiming as if you know everything about Ultimecia, her backstory, her reasons for having a castle and so on. True? If so, please tell me everything you know about her. I'm actually eager to know more!

And since this VIII game has religious and mythological things. It's irrelevant whether any real life history connection is related or not...



For unimportant, I refer you back to your "Sealing Rinoa" thread.

Again,


Unimportant pieces? That depends on your interpretation on the game, really.



For thinking of everything as fact, I refer you yet again to "Sealing Rinoa", it is obviously not an R, and yet you continue to press the issue.

If there's no evidence that it shows "SEALING FLOOR", but rather "SEALING FL-something", then it's only a matter of opinion. Just because I don't agree with your opinion, it doesn't mean I automatically declare my opinion as fact.

The conclusion is that it appears to be SEALING FLOOR which I agreed since I posted the latest picture in this thread. It shows FL. So, it's likely to be FLOOR... but the fact still remain that there's no evidence that it shows 'SEALING FLOOR'.



You may think I am being hypocritical, and I will agree.

Actually, you are over exaggerating.
Have a look at one of your quotes:


It isn't that what you are saying is new, it is because you base all of your opinions, which you regard as absolute facts(which they aren't), are based off of nothing more than illogical, unrelated, unimportant pieces of the game.

This implies that ALL of my posts since April 2006 (have over 1000 posts in this forum) are 'are based off of nothing more than illogical, unrelated, unimportant pieces of the game'

How wonderful of you! Very nice! :D



I don't believe you actually believe in your own theorys, and you are only making these threads for fun, to get a quick, negative response out of us. This is my definition of a troll.

Actually, I do believe my own theories, thank you very much. And stop with the 'troll' excuses. If I express my findings with honesty, whether or not it annoys you, it doesn't mean I'm a troll.

It's really simple. If you actually view me as a troll, then stop reading my posts. Problem solved!


Not to mention he made four of them in about ten minutes, all on the same topic (wild conspiracies gathered from a split second of freeze-frame), which makes it spamming as well as trolling.

Actually, I do believe my own theories, thank you very much. And stop with the 'troll' excuses. If I express my findings with honesty, whether or not it annoys you, it doesn't mean I'm a troll.

It's really simple. If you actually view me as a troll, then stop reading my posts. Problem solved!

And no, I'm not spamming. My posts are relevant to VIII and my posts usually contain a lot of information, so it's not technically spamming. Just because you got annoyed at how many times I post, it doesn't mean I'm spamming! How is spending 20+ minutes typing various theories spamming? Hmmmmm.

[Skyblade]

And no, I'm not spamming. My posts are relevant to VIII and my posts usually contain a lot of information, so it's not technically spamming. Just because you got annoyed at how many times I post, it doesn't mean I'm spamming! How is spending 20+ minutes typing various theories spamming? Hmmmmm.

I'm not claiming your spamming just because you posted them a lot. I'm saying your spamming because you created four different threads in a matter of minutes all of which largely relate to the same topic. Your theories are all interwoven, so why couldn't you just post a single thread with all the pictures and all your conclusions about them and leave the forum uncluttered? That was how you spammed. I'm all up for discussing this stuff, but I fail to see the reason for having four different threads on it.

Also, in all your magnificent quoting, you failed to note this post of mine, which is a shame, because I rather liked it.


Y'know, while there is a clear theme of light versus darkness, this game is pretty much the only one I've seen where the imagery is used to say that both sides are the same. I mean, Rinoa and Ulti as we see them in the game are opposites in every way. From the imagery with the wings, to their goals (fighting to protect and be with loved ones to fighting to eradicate all others), to their personalities. Normally this would indicate that Rinoa and Ulti are completely different, but instead, it is used by people to say that they are the same. Why?

Hell, Seifer and Squall have the whole equal and opposite thing going to. They both wield gunblades, they both have scars across their face, going in opposite directions. OMG, they must be the same individual.

Ulti and Rinoa are about as different as two people can be. Why do people insist on using this as a reason to support the R=U theory?

[Serapy]

Well, Skyblade. I created different threads because each one has different purpose. I can see that sort of spamming but it's not like I'm spamming making new threads in every 10 minutes or so. Heck, I haven't posted in this forum for a while. So, why not grab a little opportunity and abuse it once in a while (every three months or so) ??

And as for your quote. There's no need to agrue against it, it's your interpretation.

To be honest, I'm really tired of defending R=U. It's going no where.

[Skyblade]

I'm really interested in the different interpretations of the dual nature of the characters though. A two-sided theme permeates VIII, and we can find comparisons popping up all through the game. The parallels between Laguna and Squall's relationships, the parallel natures of the sorceress, the double nature of SeeD (Balamb's SeeDs versus the white SeeDs). The duality of the two Gardens (Galbadia versus Balamb). And there is far more than just these.

[Sword]

Ffs man. Please stop.

[Darth Cid]

To be honest, I'm really tired of defending R=U. It's going no where.

I thought that theory was dismissed years ago.

[Serapy]

To be honest, I'm really tired of defending R=U. It's going no where.

I thought that theory was dismissed years ago.

No, it wasn't and still isn't. The simple reason why people disagree with the theory is because that it doesn't make sense, or that it's just not logical. If a theory cannot be proven to be false, then it cannot be proven to be true. But that logic contradicts the fact that this game has a lot of hints leading to R=U.

Why do people think that the U-Guide's statement (about life-span) automatically rejects the whole theory, not to mention thier interviews, e-mails or newspapers columns include no mention of rejecting or confirming the R=U theory.

Also, just because the number of R=/=U supporters outweighs the number of R=U supporters doesn't mean that the theory automatically becomes dismissed!

[Darth Cid]

Well, so what if Rinoa is Ultimecia...what am I talking about if Rinoa is Ultimecia, she'd actually have something to be popular for in this game.

[Ryushikaze]

Y'know, while there is a clear theme of light versus darkness, this game is pretty much the only one I've seen where the imagery is used to say that both sides are the same.

FF3 and its Dark Warriors to counteract the last millenium's Cloud of Light as your Light warriors take on the Cloud of Darkness an example of how it'd be if the symbolism were to say they were 'the same', and even then this is a different thing entirely.


I mean, Rinoa and Ulti as we see them in the game are opposites in every way. From the imagery with the wings, to their goals (fighting to protect and be with loved ones to fighting to eradicate all others), to their personalities. Normally this would indicate that Rinoa and Ulti are completely different, but instead, it is used by people to say that they are the same. Why?

Because people desperately want more backstory for Ulti and in certain cases want Rinoa to have the 'bad end'.


Hell, Seifer and Squall have the whole equal and opposite thing going to. They both wield gunblades, they both have scars across their face, going in opposite directions. OMG, they must be the same individual.

Ulti and Rinoa are about as different as two people can be. Why do people insist on using this as a reason to support the R=U theory?

Because they're working from a conclusion, not towards one.




To be honest, I'm really tired of defending R=U. It's going no where.

I thought that theory was dismissed years ago.

No, it wasn't and still isn't.

Oh yes it was.


The simple reason why people disagree with the theory is because that it doesn't make sense, or that it's just not logical.

Hence why it is dismissed.


If a theory cannot be proven to be false, then it cannot be proven to be true.

That's not how it works... AT ALL. If a hypothesis cannot be supported empirically, it is disregrded. If it is falsified, it is dismissed or revised.


But that logic contradicts the fact that this game has a lot of hints leading to R=U.

No, it does not.


Why do people think that the U-Guide's statement (about life-span) automatically rejects the whole theory,

Because it makes the only for it to come about patently impossible.


not to mention thier interviews, e-mails or newspapers columns include no mention of rejecting or confirming the R=U theory.

Because they don't need to deny it, the same way they don't need to defy a Sephiroth/Barret relationship or explicitly affirm C/T in FF7.


Also, just because the number of R=/=U supporters outweighs the number of R=U supporters doesn't mean that the theory automatically becomes dismissed!

This is true, but entirely irrelevant. There are more R=U detractors than supporters because there is blatantly nothing TO the hypothesis.

[Moon Rabbits]

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh wasn't Rinoa and Adel being sealed both plot points in the game :S I mean, Adel was sealed and shot into space and Rinoa was sealed and you have to rescue her. I don't understand why the phrase "Sealing whoever" changes anything o_O

LIKEWISE, FFVIII Ultimania says sorceresses have normal lifespans. R=U=Nope sir~~~~ Rinoa's dead and gone by Ulty's time.

editttttt: As for desperately seeking backstory for Ulty, I don't see why she needs more. Her speech at Galbadia about SeeDs being "lokusts" and whatnot pretty much shows that she's pissed at everyone for persecuting her. That's her whole shtick - the game makes a point time and time again of showing us that sorceresses are hunted: that's the point of SeeD. Ultimecia knows she's going to die by the hands of Squall and Co. (how could she not? It would be well known history in Ulty's time) so she tries to change things by compressing time. And fails. The end! Motive and backstory enough for moi~ I mean, I'd be pretty pissed if I was born and I knew I was destined to become an evil master mind destined to be killed.

[MJN SEIFER]

Ulti and Rinoa are about as different as two people can be. Why do people insist on using this as a reason to support the R=U theory?


THANK YOU! :D

[Christmas]

Birds? More like AXES to me!! Those aren't birds! AXES!! :bigsmile:

[Darth Cid]

Birds? More like AXES to me!! Those aren't birds! AXES!! :bigsmile:

On their you know whats!

[Serapy]

The simple reason why people disagree with the theory is because that it doesn't make sense, or that it's just not logical.

Hence why it is dismissed.

When comparing to reality, time travel is illogical, magic is illogical, etc. Not to mention that the game / contradictory books mention nothing of relationships between Rinoa and Ultimecia. This is a Final Fantasy game. Fantasy world can lead to infinite possibilities! In VIII, there's no strong evidence that R is not U.




If a theory cannot be proven to be false, then it cannot be proven to be true.

That's not how it works... AT ALL. If a hypothesis cannot be supported empirically, it is disregrded. If it is falsified, it is dismissed or revised.

That still doesn't explain how/why players sense a bit of R=U when playing VIII. A lot of players have sensed this... and of course they deny it in the end because it's silly and embarrassing! They apply common sense and logic to VIII too much...





But that logic contradicts the fact that this game has a lot of hints leading to R=U.

No, it does not.

Explain why the book mentions something about the lifespans of sorceresses? Was it to hint that R cannot be U? If so, then it's still a contradiction because there are certain things in VIII that are pointing at R=U. It's not the first time that Ultimania has contradicted something.




Why do people think that the U-Guide's statement (about life-span) automatically rejects the whole theory,

Because it makes the only for it to come about patently impossible.

Time travel is impossible in real life, and yet it is possible in VIII. The VIII world has many more possibilities and less limitations than our real world.... so why not?




not to mention thier interviews, e-mails or newspapers columns include no mention of rejecting or confirming the R=U theory.

Because they don't need to deny it, the same way they don't need to defy a Sephiroth/Barret relationship or explicitly affirm C/T in FF7.

Well, yeah. But if a lot of people have noticed a piece of R=U while playing VIII, then it's just more than Sephiroth/Barret or C/T...




Also, just because the number of R=/=U supporters outweighs the number of R=U supporters doesn't mean that the theory automatically becomes dismissed!

This is true, but entirely irrelevant. There are more R=U detractors than supporters because there is blatantly nothing TO the hypothesis.

It's relevant! For example... #1 person and #2 person:

#1 - Hey, I just started playing VIII...
#2 - Lucky you!
#1 - And I was wondering... Is it true that Rinoa becomes Ultimecia in the future!? :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:
#2 - Impossible, impossible, impossible, impossible! Not true.
#1 - Oh ok, thanks!

Then that #1 probably will tell his friends or new players whenever they ask such a question...

Rinse and repeat!

There's this FAQ on GameFAQS that discusses about R=U by Sir B, of course. But there are too many lazy players and I doubt they will read the FAQ since it's a pretty huge white paper...

[Ryushikaze]

When comparing to reality, time travel is illogical, magic is illogical, etc.

You do not know what illogical means. Such things are not illogical in and of themselves. Believing in them, against all evidence and logic, IS Illogical.


Not to mention that the game / contradictory books mention nothing of relationships between Rinoa and Ultimecia. This is a Final Fantasy game. Fantasy world can lead to infinite possibilities! In VIII, there's no strong evidence that R is not U.

And there's no strong evidence that Cid isn't a killer cyborg. Your point?
We only work for what there IS evidence for, and the bigger the claim, the bigger the evidence.
Also, contradictory books? Does someone not like the FFVIII Ulti killing his pet theory?



That still doesn't explain how/why players sense a bit of R=U when playing VIII. A lot of players have sensed this... and of course they deny it in the end because it's silly and embarrassing! They apply common sense and logic to VIII too much...

They deny it because it's narratively bankrupt, supported by no substantial evidence, and utterly nonsensical.
And are you actually trying to tell me common sense and logic are bad things?



Explain why the book mentions something about the lifespans of sorceresses? Was it to hint that R cannot be U? If so, then it's still a contradiction because there are certain things in VIII that are pointing at R=U. It's not the first time that Ultimania has contradicted something.

It was to explain the confusion arising out of Edea's line about a sorceress not resting in peace until she's passed on her power. That is renders the R=U theory impossible is NOT a 'contradiction' with the game, it simply means what you thought were hints towards it are not.


Time travel is impossible in real life, and yet it is possible in VIII. The VIII world has many more possibilities and less limitations than our real world.... so why not?

Because there's no concrete evidence to support such a patently absurd notion, it would require Rinoa to jump forward an absurd amount of time after the events of the game, not remember who she is, and turn evil, ignoring Ultimecia's actual motivations and backstory, such as it is.


Well, yeah. But if a lot of people have noticed a piece of R=U while playing VIII, then it's just more than Sephiroth/Barret or C/T...

Not in the slightest. A million people can be just as wrong as 50. This is pure ad populum, and not even cited ad populum.


It's relevant! For example... #1 person and #2 person:

#1 - Hey, I just started playing VIII...
#2 - Lucky you!
#1 - And I was wondering... Is it true that Rinoa becomes Ultimecia in the future!? :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:
#2 - Impossible, impossible, impossible, impossible! Not true.
#1 - Oh ok, thanks!

Then that #1 probably will tell his friends or new players whenever they ask such a question...

Rinse and repeat!

There's this FAQ on GameFAQS that discusses about R=U by Sir B, of course. But there are too many lazy players and I doubt they will read the FAQ since it's a pretty huge white paper...

AND? Look, you say there's gotta be something to R=U because a lot of people believe it. But a lot more people don't. EVEN by the Ad populum fallacy, that means R!=U is winning over R=U.
And did you never consider that #2 has dismissed R=U because it is such a baseless bit of totty?
I know you like this idea, but it's simply and utterly without support within the narrative or outside it. None of the themes require Rinoa to BE Ultimecia, and all the evidence is at best circumstantial and often less than such.

[Darth Cid]

AND? Look, you say there's gotta be something to R=U because a lot of people believe it. But a lot more people don't. EVEN by the Ad populum fallacy, that means R!=U is winning over R=U.
And did you never consider that #2 has dismissed R=U because it is such a baseless bit of totty?
I know you like this idea, but it's simply and utterly without support within the narrative or outside it. None of the themes require Rinoa to BE Ultimecia, and all the evidence is at best circumstantial and often less than such.

I agree, You don't have the proof or the support, the game doesn't throw itself into R=U no matter how much you try to tilt the picture and point., Rinoa has no obligation to be Ultimecia. Ultimecia is a different person completely, to say Ultimecia and Rinoa are one, be would be like saying Rosa in FFIV can cast Blue Magic, it's a fun concept you could fan fic about coming to pass, but official game wise there is no evidence to make it so, like a three legged chair it doesn't have a leg to stand on.

[Serapy]

Saying that Ultimecia is a different person isn't justified. You don't see much of her backstory in VIII, compared to the ones of the main characters. No, the Ultimania doesn't count.

Saying that R=U has no support or proof isn't justified, either. The plot of VIII isn't exactly a cat-walk in the ultimate maze. There are so many things that need to be answered in VIII.

This is obvious and simple. VIII has represented a lot of symbolic things even in plot areas. Understanding these things by yourself can affect the plot. Symbolic things (or symbolisms) AND R=U are actually the same thing. They don't explictly tell you anything about them, they just show you, and that's it. So, proving or disproving these things are plain silly and wrong. Applying occam's razor to VIII where symbolisms are mostly used compared to other FFs... are again plain silly and wrong.

If you're kind of that person who demands evidence or logic for everything, go play a different game. VIII isn't for you.

[Ryushikaze]

Saying that Ultimecia is a different person isn't justified. You don't see much of her backstory in VIII,

You see more of her backstory than Sephiroth, Kefka, Golbez, etc. Because she tells us about it while she was possessing Edea.


compared to the ones of the main characters. No, the Ultimania doesn't count.

Yes it does.


Saying that R=U has no support or proof isn't justified, either. The plot of VIII isn't exactly a cat-walk in the ultimate maze. There are so many things that need to be answered in VIII.

Most of them are completely minor, and answered by the Ultimania. That was its purpose.


This is obvious and simple. VIII has represented a lot of symbolic things even in plot areas. Understanding these things by yourself can affect the plot. Symbolic things (or symbolisms) AND R=U are actually the same thing.

NO. Because you don't need factual R=U for narrative symbolism to work.


They don't explictly tell you anything about them, they just show you, and that's it. So, proving or disproving these things are plain silly and wrong. Applying occam's razor to VIII where symbolisms are mostly used compared to other FFs... are again plain silly and wrong.

If I didn't think you were a troll before, bridgedweller, that just sealed the deal.


If you're kind of that person who demands evidence or logic for everything, go play a different game. VIII isn't for you.

If you're the person who doesn't like providing evidence for your absurd claims, go find a new hobby. Hypothesizing is not for you.

[Serapy]

Saying that Ultimecia is a different person isn't justified. You don't see much of her backstory in VIII,

You see more of her backstory than Sephiroth, Kefka, Golbez, etc. Because she tells us about it while she was possessing Edea.

I mean in terms of character development.




compared to the ones of the main characters. No, the Ultimania doesn't count.

Yes it does.

No, it doesn't. There are players' who don't understand the Ultimania (Japanese.) It's simple, if Square wanted to reclarify players' knowledges of the FFs, Square could of have added different languages support for the FFs, but they didn't.

So, you can't just rely on the Ultimania to understand everything.




Saying that R=U has no support or proof isn't justified, either. The plot of VIII isn't exactly a cat-walk in the ultimate maze. There are so many things that need to be answered in VIII.

Most of them are completely minor, and answered by the Ultimania. That was its purpose.

Why should we believe Ultimania over the original games? Never mind that the Ultimania has a few contradictions and yet you still believe them.

When they create a specific FF, it'd be usually intentional. But then when Square re-analyses that specific FF, they would make changes and hence the Ultimania. That does seem to defeat the meaning of originity...




This is obvious and simple. VIII has represented a lot of symbolic things even in plot areas. Understanding these things by yourself can affect the plot. Symbolic things (or symbolisms) AND R=U are actually the same thing.

NO. Because you don't need factual R=U for narrative symbolism to work.

Japanese is known for adding meanings to thier films and games, unlike the West. So, relying on fact for proof or disproof is just wrong.




They don't explictly tell you anything about them, they just show you, and that's it. So, proving or disproving these things are plain silly and wrong. Applying occam's razor to VIII where symbolisms are mostly used compared to other FFs... are again plain silly and wrong.

If I didn't think you were a troll before, bridgedweller, that just sealed the deal.

It's a shame that it's not possible for people to not get annoyed over text ...




If you're kind of that person who demands evidence or logic for everything, go play a different game. VIII isn't for you.

If you're the person who doesn't like providing evidence for your absurd claims, go find a new hobby. Hypothesizing is not for you.

I wasn't just talking about me or my claims, just in general. Seeing as how this game has a lot of symbolisms and meanings, and people relying on fact to reach conclusions... That's fine, but when it comes to things that don't tell us but show us, relying on fact is useless.

[Ryushikaze]

I mean in terms of character development.

We got to know her when she was inside Edea. We still know her better than several other villians before her.


No, it doesn't. There are players' who don't understand the Ultimania (Japanese.) It's simple, if Square wanted to reclarify players' knowledges of the FFs, Square could of have added different languages support for the FFs, but they didn't.

So, because you and other people don't understand the language it was released in, it doesn't count? Doesn't fly.


So, you can't just rely on the Ultimania to understand everything.

Based entirely on your premise that if it counted they would have released it in a language you could understand. Again, doesn't fly.


Why should we believe Ultimania over the original games? Never mind that the Ultimania has a few contradictions and yet you still believe them.

Newer replaces older is generally the way of things.
Contradictions, such as?


When they create a specific FF, it'd be usually intentional. But then when Square re-analyses that specific FF, they would make changes and hence the Ultimania. That does seem to defeat the meaning of originity...

Considering 'originity' has no meaning, no, it does not.
Again, however, this is based on the idea that 'only the original counts' and that the Ultimania is an alteration rather than explanation. Both of which are basically invalid.


Japanese is known for adding meanings to thier films and games, unlike the West. So, relying on fact for proof or disproof is just wrong.

A: Which does not address, which is that the themes and meaning do not require R=U to be valid.
B: Meanings in Japanese films and games ARE supported by facts, same as any other analysis of fiction in any other language.
C: Their, not thier.


It's a shame that it's not possible for people to not get annoyed over text ...

You told me parsimony was useless, bridgedweller. This isn't about it being impossible to not get annoyed over text and your idea being utterly ludicrous.


I wasn't just talking about me or my claims, just in general. Seeing as how this game has a lot of symbolisms and meanings, and people relying on fact to reach conclusions... That's fine, but when it comes to things that don't tell us but show us, relying on fact is useless.

... No, because things ACTUALLY shown to us are even more rooted in fact than things told us. What you are arguing, however, is not things shown or told, but things you assert.

[Darth Cid]

If you're kind of that person who demands evidence or logic for everything, go play a different game. VIII isn't for you.

Funny you should mention that, being I don't like FFVIII that much at all. But evidence is what a theory requires to be a theory, otherwise it's fan fiction.

[Serapy]

I mean in terms of character development.

We got to know her when she was inside Edea. We still know her better than several other villians before her.

I beg to differ, my friend.




No, it doesn't. There are players' who don't understand the Ultimania (Japanese.) It's simple, if Square wanted to reclarify players' knowledges of the FFs, Square could of have added different languages support for the FFs, but they didn't.

So, because you and other people don't understand the language it was released in, it doesn't count? Doesn't fly.

No, the point is that if Square wanted to ensure that a good amount of players worldwide get reclarified on thier knowledges, they could of have added multiple languages, but they didn't.




So, you can't just rely on the Ultimania to understand everything.

Based entirely on your premise that if it counted they would have released it in a language you could understand. Again, doesn't fly.

Actually, it's a valid point. If I understand the game's language but I couldn't understand Japanese, it would be silly and wrong for someone to tell me ''LULZ Ultimania tells ya otherwise".

I'm not to blame.




Why should we believe Ultimania over the original games? Never mind that the Ultimania has a few contradictions and yet you still believe them.

Newer replaces older is generally the way of things.

No, it ruins your first experience of playing a FF game and later found out that some of the information you have learnt turned out to be no longer true. It defeats the purpose of an originality. Ultimania is a very cheap tactic to change everything without any hassle.



Contradictions, such as?

Here's a good example that's similar to Ultimecia's plot, Ultimania states that Kefka was born in Thamasa, but that does not make sense within FFVI's plot for many reasons, obviously.

There are many other contradictions but most of them are minor, Cloud's birthday, for example.




When they create a specific FF, it'd be usually intentional. But then when Square re-analyses that specific FF, they would make changes and hence the Ultimania. That does seem to defeat the meaning of originity...

Considering 'originity' has no meaning, no, it does not.
Again, however, this is based on the idea that 'only the original counts' and that the Ultimania is an alteration rather than explanation. Both of which are basically invalid.

originality <-> originity? You couldn't tell what a mispelt word looks like, could you? Now, that makes sense. You couldn't tell what a mispelt Greek word would look like, so then you say it's refering to 'ljakdkjnas jasndjnasd' or something.

Yes, it does. If something is created and later Ultimania changes that, it's no longer.... I don't know what's the right word to use, but hopefully you know what I mean.




Japanese is known for adding meanings to thier films and games, unlike the West. So, relying on fact for proof or disproof is just wrong.

A: Which does not address, which is that the themes and meaning do not require R=U to be valid.

So, all of thier meanings or symbolisms are all invaild?



B: Meanings in Japanese films and games ARE supported by facts, same as any other analysis of fiction in any other language.

I'm talking about meanings that can be drawn into many various conclusions.



C: Their, not thier.


Touché. It's becoming more apparent that your criticism of my English and calling me names are now part of your agruements. How illogical! :roll2




It's a shame that it's not possible for people to not get annoyed over text ...

You told me parsimony was useless, bridgedweller. This isn't about it being impossible to not get annoyed over text and your idea being utterly ludicrous.

Don't use that 'parsimony' word, and don't make me become LYCHON!




I wasn't just talking about me or my claims, just in general. Seeing as how this game has a lot of symbolisms and meanings, and people relying on fact to reach conclusions... That's fine, but when it comes to things that don't tell us but show us, relying on fact is useless.

... No, because things ACTUALLY shown to us are even more rooted in fact than things told us. What you are arguing, however, is not things shown or told, but things you assert.

:rolleyes2:rolleyes2


Funny you should mention that, being I don't like FFVIII that much at all. But evidence is what a theory requires to be a theory, otherwise it's fan fiction.

No. If you're using something that already exists within the game, it's not fan fiction.

[Ryushikaze]

I beg to differ, my friend.

And you'd be wrong.


No, the point is that if Square wanted to ensure that a good amount of players worldwide get reclarified on thier knowledges, they could of have added multiple languages, but they didn't.

Which doesn't invalidate the data in the slightest.


Actually, it's a valid point. If I understand the game's language but I couldn't understand Japanese, it would be silly and wrong for someone to tell me ''LULZ Ultimania tells ya otherwise".

I'm not to blame.

Yes you are. You are to blame for dismissing its data out of hand just because you can't understand it.
You are not to blame for not understanding it, but you are in essence saying 'Because I can't understand it, it does not count' and that is something to blame you for.


No, it ruins your first experience of playing a FF game and later found out that some of the information you have learnt turned out to be no longer true. It defeats the purpose of an originality. Ultimania is a very cheap tactic to change everything without any hassle.

Not information you have learnt, but things you assumed to be true. And again, it is the prerogative of a creator to change their universe. You may not like it, but it's there.


Here's a good example that's similar to Ultimecia's plot, Ultimania states that Kefka was born in Thamasa, but that does not make sense within FFVI's plot for many reasons, obviously.

1. There is technically no FFVI Ultimania.
2. That does not explicitly contradict anything said in FFVI.
3. It is irrelevant to the FFVIII Ultimania contradiction FFVIII. Please provide examples of these.


There are many other contradictions but most of them are minor, Cloud's birthday, for example.

Cloud's birthday remained consistent throughout every Japanese source and was never mentioned in-game.


originality <-> originity? You couldn't tell what a mispelt word looks like, could you? Now, that makes sense. You couldn't tell what a mispelt Greek word would look like, so then you say it's refering to 'ljakdkjnas jasndjnasd' or something.

No, I could tell you were trying for originality, but I'm not in the mood to give you slack at the moment.
And it's not a mis-spelt greek word. It is a random, meaningless assortment of Greek gibberish with a coherent word happening to come out of it.


Yes, it does. If something is created and later Ultimania changes that, it's no longer.... I don't know what's the right word to use, but hopefully you know what I mean.

The Ultimania takes precedence. That's how canon tends to work.


So, all of thier meanings or symbolisms are all invaild?

I said not suggested no such thing. I SAID none of the meaning or symbolism require factual R=U.


I'm talking about meanings that can be drawn into many various conclusions.

Then you are not talking about meanings.


Touché. It's becoming more apparent that your criticism of my English and calling me names are now part of your agruements. How illogical! :roll2

See also: my response to this blatant attempt to play the victim in the other thread, trolljob.


Don't use that 'parsimony' word, and don't make me become LYCHON!

I can and will use the word Parsimony and its derivatives as often as it is appropriate.
And I'd forgotten about Lychon. You don't want to become him. He got thoroughly embarrassed and banned. He played semantic games constantly and failed rather utterly at them.


:rolleyes2:rolleyes2

I accept your concession that these arguments are not based in fact in any form but purely on your afactual assertions.


No. If you're using something that already exists within the game, it's not fan fiction.

But it's NOT in the original game. You are making things up, Serapy, and asserting they are in the original game.

[Darth Cid]

But it's NOT in the original game. You are making things up, Serapy, and asserting they are in the original game.

QFT. Thank you for saving me the trouble.

[Serapy]

I beg to differ, my friend.

And you'd be wrong.

Opinion =/= Fact




No, the point is that if Square wanted to ensure that a good amount of players worldwide get reclarified on thier knowledges, they could of have added multiple languages, but they didn't.

Which doesn't invalidate the data in the slightest.

In terms of awareness, yes, it does.




Actually, it's a valid point. If I understand the game's language but I couldn't understand Japanese, it would be silly and wrong for someone to tell me ''LULZ Ultimania tells ya otherwise".

I'm not to blame.

Yes you are. You are to blame for dismissing its data out of hand just because you can't understand it.
You are not to blame for not understanding it, but you are in essence saying 'Because I can't understand it, it does not count' and that is something to blame you for.

So, if I don't understand Japanese, it's my fault? Right.




No, it ruins your first experience of playing a FF game and later found out that some of the information you have learnt turned out to be no longer true. It defeats the purpose of an originality. Ultimania is a very cheap tactic to change everything without any hassle.

Not information you have learnt, but things you assumed to be true. And again, it is the prerogative of a creator to change their universe. You may not like it, but it's there.

A game is designed to impress the audience with its original story. You play VIII from start to finish and you would then draw a conclusion based on what you've learnt from the game. Suddenly, some little text from a third party totally changes that perspective. What you have felt from the game is no longer true.

Here's a similar scenario: Albus Dumbledore in Harry Potter. At first, his fans didn't ever reach a point where they would question his sexuality. Later, Rowling has claimed that he was actually gay. Therefore, some persons' views on Albus begin to change. Feel that, eh?

Him being gay is now fact. The point is that it does ruin some experience.




Here's a good example that's similar to Ultimecia's plot, Ultimania states that Kefka was born in Thamasa, but that does not make sense within FFVI's plot for many reasons, obviously.

1. There is technically no FFVI Ultimania.
2. That does not explicitly contradict anything said in FFVI.
3. It is irrelevant to the FFVIII Ultimania contradiction FFVIII. Please provide examples of these.


There are many other contradictions but most of them are minor, Cloud's birthday, for example.

Cloud's birthday remained consistent throughout every Japanese source and was never mentioned in-game.

No. On the VII's manual, it mentions that his birthday is 19th August. Yet, in AC and Ultimania mention that his birthday is 11th August. Not to mention that his sign in Final Fantasy Tactics appears to be Aquarius. Aquarius =/= August.

There are too many inconsistencies to write down here. You can find more somewhere.

The point is that if they have made mistakes, there's always a good chance that they will make same mistakes in the future. But that's uncommon, since they usually put additional detail on existing aspects of FFs. That's exactly what secured the credibility of Ultimania.




originality <-> originity? You couldn't tell what a mispelt word looks like, could you? Now, that makes sense. You couldn't tell what a mispelt Greek word would look like, so then you say it's refering to 'ljakdkjnas jasndjnasd' or something.

No, I could tell you were trying for originality, but I'm not in the mood to give you slack at the moment.

Don't agrue with me, then. You have already declared me as a troll, so why bother.



And it's not a mis-spelt greek word. It is a random, meaningless assortment of Greek gibberish with a coherent word happening to come out of it.

You an expert in Greek or something? If what you said is true, my greek friends would have said the same thing. Not to mention that they have never played VIII before!

You people have agreed with the conclusion of some painting at Ultimecia's castle. Remember the famous line? Where did that line come from? It's from something that has incorrect grammar, apparently!




Yes, it does. If something is created and later Ultimania changes that, it's no longer.... I don't know what's the right word to use, but hopefully you know what I mean.

The Ultimania takes precedence. That's how canon tends to work.

I'd apply for that job at Square. When I have that job, I'd change something in the Ultimania to my liking. And then it will become canonised! How wonderful!

See, the original games are more important to focus on than things such as Ultimania.




So, all of thier meanings or symbolisms are all invaild?

I said not suggested no such thing. I SAID none of the meaning or symbolism require factual R=U.

R=U has about the same qualities as some symbolisms in VIII. The lions of Ultimecia, Griever, Rinoa finger sign at the Star, etc. The only difference is that they don't show up in dialogues.




I'm talking about meanings that can be drawn into many various conclusions.

Then you are not talking about meanings.

You look at this non-dialogueous thing, and you become curious about what does it do. It's impossible for that thing to have only one possibility.




Touché. It's becoming more apparent that your criticism of my English and calling me names are now part of your agruements. How illogical! :roll2

See also: my response to this blatant attempt to play the victim in the other thread, trolljob.

How was I supposed to acknowledge which thread will you reply to first?




Don't use that 'parsimony' word, and don't make me become LYCHON!

I can and will use the word Parsimony and its derivatives as often as it is appropriate.
And I'd forgotten about Lychon. You don't want to become him. He got thoroughly embarrassed and banned. He played semantic games constantly and failed rather utterly at them.

Although, you stopped replying to him; he was always the last. Same thing happened to Sir Bahamut.

I just find this absolutely hilarious and ironic. After the acknowledgement that I'm a troll (according to you), we would keep arguing. Yet, between people like Lychon and you will stop agruing at some point. Of course, people will stop arguing eventually, but not like this!




:rolleyes2:rolleyes2

I accept your concession that these arguments are not based in fact in any form but purely on your afactual assertions.

No.




No. If you're using something that already exists within the game, it's not fan fiction.

But it's NOT in the original game. You are making things up, Serapy, and asserting they are in the original game.

Actually, what I did was removing visual images from the game and represent them here; such visual images that are not made up. Then, I'd make connections between said visual images. That's not even 100% fan fiction. A bit, but not all. No need to exaggerate.

And this is NOT a theroy!

[Ryushikaze]

Opinion =/= Fact

Yes, and your opinion is not fact.


In terms of awareness, yes, it does.

But awareness is not validity. You being unaware of valid data makes it no less valid.


So, if I don't understand Japanese, it's my fault? Right.

Again, you are ignoring things I cannot be more explicit about.
THAT YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND is not to be blamed.
THAT YOU DECLARE IT INVALID BECAUSE YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND is.


A game is designed to impress the audience with its original story. You play VIII from start to finish and you would then draw a conclusion based on what you've learnt from the game. Suddenly, some little text from a third party totally changes that perspective. What you have felt from the game is no longer true.

Ultimania is not from a third party. It is from the creators, and sold by Square. And all this source changing your perspective means is that you were wrong.


Here's a similar scenario: Albus Dumbledore in Harry Potter. At first, his fans didn't ever reach a point where they would question his sexuality. Later, Rowling has claimed that he was actually gay. Therefore, some persons' views on Albus begin to change. Feel that, eh?

Him being gay is now fact. The point is that it does ruin some experience.

The people who assumed Albus was heterosexual were incorrect in their assumption, and the original author revealed new data that invalidated an assumption people made about her work, but not her work itself. And even if it 'ruins' the experience for a few homophobes, that's Rowling's prerogative.



No. On the VII's manual,

English Manual. Not the game. Not the japanese manual.


it mentions that his birthday is 19th August. Yet, in AC and Ultimania mention that his birthday is 11th August. Not to mention that his sign in Final Fantasy Tactics appears to be Aquarius. Aquarius =/= August.

FFT is not FFVII. FFT made a massive error regarding his astrological sign. It was also made by other people. How is this reflective on the Ultimania or AC/C, made by the same people who made FFVII is beyond me.


There are too many inconsistencies to write down here. You can find more somewhere.

I refuse to do your work for you and accept your concession for failing to address how Kefka being born in Thamasa is a contradiction.


The point is that if they have made mistakes, there's always a good chance that they will make same mistakes in the future. But that's uncommon, since they usually put additional detail on existing aspects of FFs. That's exactly what secured the credibility of Ultimania.

So if they are credible, why can't we trust them?


Don't agrue with me, then. You have already declared me as a troll, so why bother.

Because I play with trolls. I am cruel like that.


You an expert in Greek or something? If what you said is true, my greek friends would have said the same thing. Not to mention that they have never played VIII before!

...::points at the greek speaker IN THIS THREAD who has said exactly the same thing as me::


You people have agreed with the conclusion of some painting at Ultimecia's castle. Remember the famous line? Where did that line come from? It's from something that has incorrect grammar, apparently!

Incorrect grammar is a whole different kettle of fish than text that doesn't spell anything.


I'd apply for that job at Square. When I have that job, I'd change something in the Ultimania to my liking. And then it will become canonised! How wonderful!

See, the original games are more important to focus on than things such as Ultimania.

No. Neither is 'more important.'
And you would not be able to 'change something to your liking' in an Ultimania. Or get a job editing one. You don't speak Japanese. You'd put out Japanese text like the greek lettering on the tower.


R=U has about the same qualities as some symbolisms in VIII. The lions of Ultimecia, Griever, Rinoa finger sign at the Star, etc. The only difference is that they don't show up in dialogues.

Which again says nothing that they must be true. Squall is not literally a lion even though he is symbolically linked with them.


You look at this non-dialogueous thing, and you become curious about what does it do. It's impossible for that thing to have only one possibility.

Yes it is. It's also possible for it to have none. But again 'meaning with multiple conclusion' means you aren't talking about meanings. The 'meanings' would be the 'conclusions'



How was I supposed to acknowledge which thread will you reply to first?

I've been replying to all of them. There's no need to repeat yourself.


Although, you stopped replying to him; he was always the last. Same thing happened to Sir Bahamut.

I told him I would ignore him because his histrionic tirade at me about my 'misuse' of Parsimony was wrong but moreover off topic. After I DID respond to that, he was immediately banned for his response, so I had no reason TO respond.


I just find this absolutely hilarious and ironic. After the acknowledgement that I'm a troll (according to you), we would keep arguing. Yet, between people like Lychon and you will stop agruing at some point. Of course, people will stop arguing eventually, but not like this!

Lychon was a red herring to my current discussion. With you, playing with my new chewtoy is the entire purpose.


No.

I know. 'No, they aren't based in fact', I accepted your concession already.


Actually, what I did was removing visual images from the game and represent them here; such visual images that are not made up. Then, I'd make connections between said visual images. That's not even 100% fan fiction. A bit, but not all. No need to exaggerate.

Like I said, you're making things up that aren't in the game. You're asserting there are connections.


And this is NOT a theroy!

Then what in the name of Beelzebub is it?

[Serapy]

Opinion =/= Fact

Yes, and your opinion is not fact.

Then why bother fighting against this opinion?




In terms of awareness, yes, it does.

But awareness is not validity. You being unaware of valid data makes it no less valid.

I read VIII and I was then wronged by someone else for getting something wrong due to new-lol-canonised information from Ultimania. This time, I am told to read the Ultimania's translations and then I must change my view on VIII as a whole.

There's something wrong about this process. It's not my fault that I've got something wrong. It's Square's fault.

Ultimania is only exclusive to Japanese. If Square was so desperate to modify something in FF games and thus re-clarify our knowledges, they could of have added multi-languages support, but they didn't.

So, what could this mean? It could mean that Ultimania is not actually very important to people who don't understand Japanese. They have left us the original games in English and that's what matters.

It's completely wrong to use Ultimania as a whole to disprove something. 99% of the original plot and 1% Ultimania are fine, depending on the context.




So, if I don't understand Japanese, it's my fault? Right.

Again, you are ignoring things I cannot be more explicit about.
THAT YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND is not to be blamed.
THAT YOU DECLARE IT INVALID BECAUSE YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND is.

I never declared it to be invalid.




A game is designed to impress the audience with its original story. You play VIII from start to finish and you would then draw a conclusion based on what you've learnt from the game. Suddenly, some little text from a third party totally changes that perspective. What you have felt from the game is no longer true.

Ultimania is not from a third party. It is from the creators, and sold by Square. And all this source changing your perspective means is that you were wrong.

Partly. DigiCube Co was the company that released and published VIII Ultimania.

It wasn't my fault that my perspective contradicted the Ultimania.




Here's a similar scenario: Albus Dumbledore in Harry Potter. At first, his fans didn't ever reach a point where they would question his sexuality. Later, Rowling has claimed that he was actually gay. Therefore, some persons' views on Albus begin to change. Feel that, eh?

Him being gay is now fact. The point is that it does ruin some experience.

The people who assumed Albus was heterosexual were incorrect in their assumption, and the original author revealed new data that invalidated an assumption people made about her work, but not her work itself. And even if it 'ruins' the experience for a few homophobes, that's Rowling's prerogative.

There wasn't evidence regarding his sexuality in the series. And all of a sudden, Rowling claims that he's gay. That's the whole point.




No. On the VII's manual,

English Manual. Not the game. Not the japanese manual.

Still relevant.




it mentions that his birthday is 19th August. Yet, in AC and Ultimania mention that his birthday is 11th August. Not to mention that his sign in Final Fantasy Tactics appears to be Aquarius. Aquarius =/= August.

FFT is not FFVII. FFT made a massive error regarding his astrological sign. It was also made by other people. How is this reflective on the Ultimania or AC/C, made by the same people who made FFVII is beyond me.

Thier mistakes have proved something. Therefore, it's better to focus on the original games and not to focus on the external sources.




There are too many inconsistencies to write down here. You can find more somewhere.

I refuse to do your work for you and accept your concession for failing to address how Kefka being born in Thamasa is a contradiction.

Addressing the explanation as to why the Kefka case is a contradiction is irrelevant. We are on the VIII board.




The point is that if they have made mistakes, there's always a good chance that they will make same mistakes in the future. But that's uncommon, since they usually put additional detail on existing aspects of FFs. That's exactly what secured the credibility of Ultimania.

So if they are credible, why can't we trust them?

It's not wise to 100% trust them after they have made these mistakes.




Don't agrue with me, then. You have already declared me as a troll, so why bother.

Because I play with trolls. I am cruel like that.

According to your definition of 'troll', Lychon was definitely a troll. And yet, you gave up on him. See below for more explanation.




You an expert in Greek or something? If what you said is true, my greek friends would have said the same thing. Not to mention that they have never played VIII before!

...::points at the greek speaker IN THIS THREAD who has said exactly the same thing as me::

Four Greek persons < One Greek person? Really?




You people have agreed with the conclusion of some painting at Ultimecia's castle. Remember the famous line? Where did that line come from? It's from something that has incorrect grammar, apparently!

Incorrect grammar is a whole different kettle of fish than text that doesn't spell anything.

They are both the same thing in terms of inaccuratity.




I'd apply for that job at Square. When I have that job, I'd change something in the Ultimania to my liking. And then it will become canonised! How wonderful!

See, the original games are more important to focus on than things such as Ultimania.

No. Neither is 'more important.'

So, if someone miserably adds something and that new data, which is deemed to be out of the ordinary, becomes equally as important as the orginal games? Right.



And you would not be able to 'change something to your liking' in an Ultimania.

It's possible. Impress your boss and he probably will approve it.



Or get a job editing one.

Anybody can have any job.


You don't speak Japanese.

I was just hypothesizing a scenario.



You'd put out Japanese text like the greek lettering on the tower.

Not everybody will put the same identical characters.




R=U has about the same qualities as some symbolisms in VIII. The lions of Ultimecia, Griever, Rinoa finger sign at the Star, etc. The only difference is that they don't show up in dialogues.

Which again says nothing that they must be true. Squall is not literally a lion even though he is symbolically linked with them.

You're now claiming that Squall is linked with lions. So, if Ultimecia has them on her castle, and considering that the visible comparison of between these visual images does exist, it must be true.




You look at this non-dialogueous thing, and you become curious about what does it do. It's impossible for that thing to have only one possibility.

Yes it is. It's also possible for it to have none. But again 'meaning with multiple conclusion' means you aren't talking about meanings. The 'meanings' would be the 'conclusions'

If this thing has no possibility of drawing any conclusion, then what's the purpose of its existence when it, in fact, keeps showing up in more than one instance within the game? Why would the developers waste time on designing things that absolutely mean nothing?

Also, when you look at one thing, it's not a conclusion. A conclusion usually occurs at the end of the thinking process.




How was I supposed to acknowledge which thread will you reply to first?

I've been replying to all of them. There's no need to repeat yourself.

Then, I'll quote you:



See also: my response to this blatant attempt to play the victim in the other thread, trolljob.

I shall accept this statement as meaningless.




Although, you stopped replying to him; he was always the last. Same thing happened to Sir Bahamut.

I told him I would ignore him because his histrionic tirade at me about my 'misuse' of Parsimony was wrong but moreover off topic. After I DID respond to that, he was immediately banned for his response, so I had no reason TO respond.

I'm talking about this thread:

http://forums.eyesonff.com/final-fantasy-viii/87440-revelation-time-compression-5.html#post1757460

Your excuse for not replying to him back is off topic? Well, well! Most of the things in our arguments are mostly off-topic as well!

You're partly responsible for making him get banned. And that administrator... Yeah.




I just find this absolutely hilarious and ironic. After the acknowledgement that I'm a troll (according to you), we would keep arguing. Yet, between people like Lychon and you will stop agruing at some point. Of course, people will stop arguing eventually, but not like this!

Lychon was a red herring to my current discussion. With you, playing with my new chewtoy is the entire purpose.

Your logic is so compelling. Back in '06, the phenomenon of 'trolls' wasn't widely acknowledged. So, if we merge our timeline with the '06 timeline, he would be called as a troll according to your definition of 'troll'. And yet, the ending result is completely different! It's funny how time can change people.




No.

I know. 'No, they aren't based in fact', I accepted your concession already.

I beg to differ.




Actually, what I did was removing visual images from the game and represent them here; such visual images that are not made up. Then, I'd make connections between said visual images. That's not even 100% fan fiction. A bit, but not all. No need to exaggerate.

Like I said, you're making things up that aren't in the game. You're asserting there are connections.

And yet you act as if this is 100% fan-fiction. Exaggerating doesn't increase the level of your validity, you know.




And this is NOT a theroy!

Then what in the name of Beelzebub is it?

You got ... Oh, wait. Never mind.

[Ryushikaze]

Then why bother fighting against this opinion?

I'm not. I'm fighting against you asserting it as fact.


I read VIII and I was then wronged by someone else for getting something wrong due to new-lol-canonised information from Ultimania. This time, I am told to read the Ultimania's translations and then I must change my view on VIII as a whole.

But this does not mean the Ultimania is invalid.


There's something wrong about this process. It's not my fault that I've got something wrong. It's Square's fault.

Yes, it IS your fault you got something wrong. They hold the information. That's their perogative.


Ultimania is only exclusive to Japanese. If Square was so desperate to modify something in FF games and thus re-clarify our knowledges, they could of have added multi-languages support, but they didn't.

Again, this doesn't make it invalid at all.


So, what could this mean? It could mean that Ultimania is not actually very important to people who don't understand Japanese. They have left us the original games in English and that's what matters.

No, the original games, and the international versions, are in Japanese. Square made the games and the Ultimanias in Japanese.


It's completely wrong to use Ultimania as a whole to disprove something. 99% of the original plot and 1% Ultimania are fine, depending on the context.

It's not wrong in the slightest for a writer to release additional information regarding their series that disproves assumptions made about it. You just don't like it because it kills your pet theory.


I never declared it to be invalid.

Yes you did. You are saying it doesn't count.


Partly. DigiCube Co was the company that released and published VIII Ultimania.

It wasn't my fault that my perspective contradicted the Ultimania.

You keep talking about 'not your fault' like it makes any difference. Your perspective is contradicted by the Ultimania. It takes precedence.


There wasn't evidence regarding his sexuality in the series. And all of a sudden, Rowling claims that he's gay. That's the whole point.

And this contradicts nothing in the books. It is totally Rowling's right to do this.


Still relevant.

No, because it was an error made in the translation of the game's manual.


Thier mistakes have proved something. Therefore, it's better to focus on the original games and not to focus on the external sources.

They prove nothing, and the manual IS an external source by your logic. Not that the Ultimania is any more an 'external source' than J.K. Rowling is for Harry Potter.


Addressing the explanation as to why the Kefka case is a contradiction is irrelevant. We are on the VIII board.

No it's not, because you listed it in the first place as an example of contradiction making official sources unreliable. So either concede this point or substantiate it.


It's not wise to 100% trust them after they have made these mistakes.

Mistakes you claim they have made but have not substantiated, and do not justify outright disregarding the Ultimania as you would like to.


According to your definition of 'troll', Lychon was definitely a troll. And yet, you gave up on him. See below for more explanation.

I didn't give up on him, I stopped responding to him because his long winded responses on nothing weren't even amusing to respond to any longer. Besides, he got banned immediately thereafter, making any response utterly redundant.


Four Greek persons < One Greek person? Really?

One greek person we know exists > Four greek people you say exist.
If you could provide evidence they exist and they say what you say they do, it would be different.


They are both the same thing in terms of inaccuratity.

No. They aren't. One is 'They is doing something wrong', the other is 'adekjh wdkjuhfd fin ekfhsd'


So, if someone miserably adds something and that new data, which is deemed to be out of the ordinary, becomes equally as important as the orginal games? Right.

IF that data makes it through the editing process, then yes, it will be valid until it is overruled. That is how canon works.


It's possible. Impress your boss and he probably will approve it.

In which case, 'your boss' being the creator/s of the original game, will know if it it in line with their vision for the game, and approve or disapprove on that basis.


Anybody can have any job.

Can you be hired for this job?


I was just hypothesizing a scenario.

The likelihood of which is very very slim.


Not everybody will put the same identical characters.

But your Japanese would be random nonsense and maybe the occasional real word interspersed.


You're now claiming that Squall is linked with lions.

His name is Leonhart. His theme song is 'Maybe I'm a Lion'. His emblem is a lion.


So, if Ultimecia has them on her castle, and considering that the visible comparison of between these visual images does exist, it must be true.

WHAT must be true? That the image you showed is relevant to FFVIII? That does not follow. Squall having an obvious link to Lions does not substantiate your claim that that image has anything to do with FFVIII.


If this thing has no possibility of drawing any conclusion, then what's the purpose of its existence when it, in fact, keeps showing up in more than one instance within the game? Why would the developers waste time on designing things that absolutely mean nothing?

Also, when you look at one thing, it's not a conclusion. A conclusion usually occurs at the end of the thinking process.

How does 'this thing' keep showing up? And yes, you are drawing conclusions from this thing.
As for why they'd design something without meaning 'It looks cool.'


I shall accept this statement as meaningless.

But it's not meaningless. It's a referrer to my response to your identical statement elsewhere.


http://forums.eyesonff.com/final-fantasy-viii/87440-revelation-time-compression-5.html#post1757460

Your excuse for not replying to him back is off topic? Well, well! Most of the things in our arguments are mostly off-topic as well!

You're partly responsible for making him get banned. And that administrator... Yeah.

Are you trying to DEFEND Lychon, Serapy? And are you saying that these discussions, which are talking about your claims, are off topic from the threads, which are about your claims?


Your logic is so compelling. Back in '06, the phenomenon of 'trolls' wasn't widely acknowledged.

It wasn't?


So, if we merge our timeline with the '06 timeline, he would be called as a troll according to your definition of 'troll'. And yet, the ending result is completely different! It's funny how time can change people.

Or it's because he wasn't fun. You're amusing.


I beg to differ.

What, do you want to officially concede instead?


And yet you act as if this is 100% fan-fiction. Exaggerating doesn't increase the level of your validity, you know.

You are asserting connections between things that have no connection. YOU, good sir, are the one engaging in exaggeration.


You got ... Oh, wait. Never mind.

Blatant Red Herring noted and held against you. If it's not a theory, then what is it?

[Serapy]

Then why bother fighting against this opinion?

I'm not. I'm fighting against you asserting it as fact.

It's like Good vs Evil. People can choose to be Good or Evil. You can apply the same thing to this.




I read VIII and I was then wronged by someone else for getting something wrong due to new-lol-canonised information from Ultimania. This time, I am told to read the Ultimania's translations and then I must change my view on VIII as a whole.

But this does not mean the Ultimania is invalid.

It's not that it's invalid. It's just annoying and stupid. What was Square's true intention of putting Japanese on Ultimania?




There's something wrong about this process. It's not my fault that I've got something wrong. It's Square's fault.

Yes, it IS your fault you got something wrong. They hold the information. That's their perogative.

It's not my fault that I don't understand Japanese. Therefore, it's not my fault that I got something wrong.




Ultimania is only exclusive to Japanese. If Square was so desperate to modify something in FF games and thus re-clarify our knowledges, they could of have added multi-languages support, but they didn't.

Again, this doesn't make it invalid at all.

Whether it's invalid or not, it doesn't matter. What matters is why Square targetted at Japanese audience. Square feeds the Japanese new information, not the West.




So, what could this mean? It could mean that Ultimania is not actually very important to people who don't understand Japanese. They have left us the original games in English and that's what matters.

No, the original games, and the international versions, are in Japanese. Square made the games and the Ultimanias in Japanese.

They gave us English VIII and that's it.
If they wanted to re-clarify the plot or whatever, they could of have added English or other languages. But they didn't, so it means... that it's not important.




It's completely wrong to use Ultimania as a whole to disprove something. 99% of the original plot and 1% Ultimania are fine, depending on the context.

It's not wrong in the slightest for a writer to release additional information regarding their series that disproves assumptions made about it. You just don't like it because it kills your pet theory.

I didn't create R=U. A mass amount of people did.




I never declared it to be invalid.

Yes you did. You are saying it doesn't count.

It's still better to focus on the orginal games, not Ultimanias.
Orginal games don't include mistakes, only Ultimanias do.




Partly. DigiCube Co was the company that released and published VIII Ultimania.

It wasn't my fault that my perspective contradicted the Ultimania.

You keep talking about 'not your fault' like it makes any difference. Your perspective is contradicted by the Ultimania. It takes precedence.

If Square added English to Ultimanias, it could make a bigger difference. Why didn't they market it worldwide? That's pretty good money, if you ask me.




There wasn't evidence regarding his sexuality in the series. And all of a sudden, Rowling claims that he's gay. That's the whole point.

And this contradicts nothing in the books. It is totally Rowling's right to do this.

It did contradict some people views.




Still relevant.

No, because it was an error made in the translation of the game's manual.

It's not just the manual. That's more than one error.




Thier mistakes have proved something. Therefore, it's better to focus on the original games and not to focus on the external sources.

They prove nothing, and the manual IS an external source by your logic. Not that the Ultimania is any more an 'external source' than J.K. Rowling is for Harry Potter.

Hmmm, the manual and the game were created at the same time. So, this manual doesn't qualify as an external source.




Addressing the explanation as to why the Kefka case is a contradiction is irrelevant. We are on the VIII board.

No it's not, because you listed it in the first place as an example of contradiction making official sources unreliable. So either concede this point or substantiate it.

Are you implying that the external sources are 100% reliable when in fact they have made some errors?




It's not wise to 100% trust them after they have made these mistakes.

Mistakes you claim they have made but have not substantiated, and do not justify outright disregarding the Ultimania as you would like to.

Go do some research, you'll find better information than I've explained in my previous post. No, don't ask me to explain 'cos I'm not claiming any theory.




According to your definition of 'troll', Lychon was definitely a troll. And yet, you gave up on him. See below for more explanation.

I didn't give up on him, I stopped responding to him because his long winded responses on nothing weren't even amusing to respond to any longer. Besides, he got banned immediately thereafter, making any response utterly redundant.

His English is far better than mine, though.




Four Greek persons < One Greek person? Really?

One greek person we know exists > Four greek people you say exist.
If you could provide evidence they exist and they say what you say they do, it would be different.


Latin - Is this Latin? (http://latinforum.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7452)
Is this modern or ancient Greek? (http://www.translatum.gr/forum/index.php/topic,50838.0.html)

LOL! Their replies include words that are... striking, considering that they have never played VIII before.




They are both the same thing in terms of inaccuratity.

No. They aren't. One is 'They is doing something wrong', the other is 'adekjh wdkjuhfd fin ekfhsd'

Incorrect grammar = bad
Misspelt words = bad

So, they are the same!




So, if someone miserably adds something and that new data, which is deemed to be out of the ordinary, becomes equally as important as the orginal games? Right.

IF that data makes it through the editing process, then yes, it will be valid until it is overruled. That is how canon works.

I don't believe in canon, my friend.




It's possible. Impress your boss and he probably will approve it.

In which case, 'your boss' being the creator/s of the original game, will know if it it in line with their vision for the game, and approve or disapprove on that basis.

If it's something that will interest players, why not?




Anybody can have any job.

Can you be hired for this job?

It's impossible for someone to get a job that he/she desires?




I was just hypothesizing a scenario.

The likelihood of which is very very slim.

If nobody were greedy, then I could see your point. There are other factors to consider, too.




Not everybody will put the same identical characters.

But your Japanese would be random nonsense and maybe the occasional real word interspersed.

So, Square randomly adds text that serves no purpose and yet it's similar to one word that is relevant to the plot. That's one hell of a crazy coincidence, yo.




You're now claiming that Squall is linked with lions.

His name is Leonhart. His theme song is 'Maybe I'm a Lion'. His emblem is a lion.

So, in your logic, the lions on Ultimecia's castle are connected with Squall, too.




So, if Ultimecia has them on her castle, and considering that the visible comparison of between these visual images does exist, it must be true.

WHAT must be true? That the image you showed is relevant to FFVIII? That does not follow.

That his lions being connected with each other is true.


Squall having an obvious link to Lions does not substantiate your claim that that image has anything to do with FFVIII.

In your logic, his last name is not an obvious link with Lion, then.
Don't ever mention Kingdom Hearts. It's not connected with VIII.




If this thing has no possibility of drawing any conclusion, then what's the purpose of its existence when it, in fact, keeps showing up in more than one instance within the game? Why would the developers waste time on designing things that absolutely mean nothing?

Also, when you look at one thing, it's not a conclusion. A conclusion usually occurs at the end of the thinking process.

How does 'this thing' keep showing up? And yes, you are drawing conclusions from this thing.
As for why they'd design something without meaning 'It looks cool.'

If it keeps showing up in the game, it doesn't necessarily make it cool. There are too many things in the game that are already cool.




I shall accept this statement as meaningless.

But it's not meaningless. It's a referrer to my response to your identical statement elsewhere.

It is meaningless. Whatever you're agruing that's not relevant to VIII is always meaningless.




http://forums.eyesonff.com/final-fantasy-viii/87440-revelation-time-compression-5.html#post1757460

Your excuse for not replying to him back is off topic? Well, well! Most of the things in our arguments are mostly off-topic as well!

You're partly responsible for making him get banned. And that administrator... Yeah.

Are you trying to DEFEND Lychon, Serapy? And are you saying that these discussions, which are talking about your claims, are off topic from the threads, which are about your claims?

Other than him criticising your English, I agree with some of his points based on VIII.




Your logic is so compelling. Back in '06, the phenomenon of 'trolls' wasn't widely acknowledged.

It wasn't?

I don't recall seeing people calling each other trolls upon my registration on this forum.




I beg to differ.

What, do you want to officially concede instead?

What are we talking about again?




And yet you act as if this is 100% fan-fiction. Exaggerating doesn't increase the level of your validity, you know.

You are asserting connections between things that have no connection. YOU, good sir, are the one engaging in exaggeration.

How do you know that they have no connection? Is there any secret dialogue that I'm missing?




You got ... Oh, wait. Never mind.

Blatant Red Herring noted and held against you. If it's not a theory, then what is it?

Interpretation.

[Ryushikaze]

It's like Good vs Evil. People can choose to be Good or Evil. You can apply the same thing to this.

Okay. I apply that I'm good and you're evil.
Seriously though, how 'good v evil' at all like 'fighting against you asserting it as fact'


It's not that it's invalid. It's just annoying and stupid. What was Square's true intention of putting Japanese on Ultimania?

To reveal more information about the game for the audience most interested and likely to purchase, the Japanese.


It's not my fault that I don't understand Japanese. Therefore, it's not my fault that I got something wrong.

You're incredibly on the defensive, here. Your fault or not, you got something wrong because you didn't have all the information. That DOESN'T make the additional info invalid.


Whether it's invalid or not, it doesn't matter. What matters is why Square targetted at Japanese audience. Square feeds the Japanese new information, not the West.

Which again, makes the information no less valid, and no less crushing to your 'interpretations'


They gave us English VIII and that's it.
If they wanted to re-clarify the plot or whatever, they could of have added English or other languages. But they didn't, so it means... that it's not important.

No. That's like saying if Lucas released a vital bit of SW in English only, it wouldn't matter because he didn't release it in Czech.
It's no less important because they didn't release it in every language.
You just don't like it because it kills your pet 'interpretation.'


I didn't create R=U. A mass amount of people did.

Which makes IT no more valid and the Ultimania no less valid for squashing it.


It's still better to focus on the orginal games, not Ultimanias.
Orginal games don't include mistakes, only Ultimanias do.

"This guy are sick"
"So that's how you'll fool them" "So that's how you fooled them"
The original games DO contain mistakes, and you have YET to substantiate that the Ultis have mistakes, and are essentially SPECIAL PLEADING to disregard this evidence you don't like to protect R=U.


If Square added English to Ultimanias, it could make a bigger difference. Why didn't they market it worldwide? That's pretty good money, if you ask me.

IF they had the money to release it, IF it sold well in the English speaking world.
But either way, it's irrelevant. They released it. IT COUNTS.


It did contradict some people views.

And those people can just go cry in a corner. Their views are not sacrosanct and more important than the creator's story.


It's not just the manual. That's more than one error.

So where else than the manual and what are these 'other errors?'


Hmmm, the manual and the game were created at the same time. So, this manual doesn't qualify as an external source.

The english language manual was not made at the same time as the original japanese language game.


Are you implying that the external sources are 100% reliable when in fact they have made some errors?

Are you making a gorram red herring AND strawman to try and distract me from the gorram demand for evidence I just made. HOW IS KEFKA'S BIRTHPLACE A CONTRADICTION? SUBSTANTIATE THIS ASSERTION OR CONCEDE IT AS A CONTRADICTION.
Or do I need to be MORE blunt?


Go do some research, you'll find better information than I've explained in my previous post. No, don't ask me to explain 'cos I'm not claiming any theory.

But you ARE making assertions, and those DO need to be substantiated. And again, I REFUSE to do you work for you.


His English is far better than mine, though.

Which is in fact irrelevant to him not being fun, being off topic, and getting banned almost immediately thereafter.



Latin - Is this Latin? (http://latinforum.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7452)
Is this modern or ancient Greek? (http://www.translatum.gr/forum/index.php/topic,50838.0.html)

LOL! Their replies include words that are... striking, considering that they have never played VIII before.

Serapy, they're saying it's nonsense too.


Incorrect grammar = bad
Misspelt words = bad

So, they are the same!

It's not 'misspelled words' it's 'not words at all' which is worse than bad grammar.


I don't believe in canon, my friend.

You don't have to. That's how it works. You have no say.


If it's something that will interest players, why not?

Because it goes against your boss- the creator's- vision.


It's impossible for someone to get a job that he/she desires?

Sometimes, it is.


If nobody were greedy, then I could see your point. There are other factors to consider, too.

Yes, like your complete Japanese illiteracy.


So, Square randomly adds text that serves no purpose and yet it's similar to one word that is relevant to the plot. That's one hell of a crazy coincidence, yo.

'Dummy Text' is a common shortcut, Serapy.


So, in your logic, the lions on Ultimecia's castle are connected with Squall, too.

Nope. They aren't linked with Squall. Squall is linked with lions. Not all Lions are linked with Squall.


That his lions being connected with each other is true.

'His' lions? Squall is linked with lions, but not all lions are linked with Squall.


In your logic, his last name is not an obvious link with Lion, then.Don't ever mention Kingdom Hearts. It's not connected with VIII.

No, in my logic, the name meaning 'Heart of a Lion' is an obvious link to him being represented by lions. But this does not mean he is represented by ALL lions.


If it keeps showing up in the game, it doesn't necessarily make it cool. There are too many things in the game that are already cool.

So there's a limit on cool?


It is meaningless. Whatever you're agruing that's not relevant to VIII is always meaningless.

Then all of your threads are meaningless, because none of them are actually relevant to the plot of FFVIII.


Other than him criticising your English, I agree with some of his points based on VIII.

So, you DO agree that you're off topic, then?
And he was incorrect in his criticism of my English.


I don't recall seeing people calling each other trolls upon my registration on this forum.

That doesn't mean trolls weren't well known three years ago. Trolls were common over a decade ago.


What are we talking about again?

You really don't remember, do you?


How do you know that they have no connection? Is there any secret dialogue that I'm missing?

You certainly aren't SUBSTANTIATING any connection.


Interpretation.

Which still needs to be supported, otherwise it is meaningless.

[McLovin']

It is meaningless. Whatever you're agruing that's not relevant to VIII is always meaningless.


Then all of your threads are meaningless, because none of them are actually relevant to the plot of FFVIII.

Hoho, pwned.

[-kuri-]

I spent the last ten minutes skimming through Serapy's imaginative theories and I laughed through all of it. Mainly because at some point in the topic, Ryushikaze shuts him down.

Look man, I have to admit, in some of your theories, you might be on to something...but in others, like the rising sun or whatever, you are just looking a little too much into small, unimportant detail. And this one...might be one of them. The birds are just trippy, man. They are just there to give you seizures.

[Serapy]

It's like Good vs Evil. People can choose to be Good or Evil. You can apply the same thing to this.

Okay. I apply that I'm good and you're evil.

Bingo! That was a good example of expressing an opinion. I think and you think differently. Sharing this on the board doesn't still void the meaning of expressing an opinion.



Seriously though, how 'good v evil' at all like 'fighting against you asserting it as fact'

I have never asserted anything as fact.




It's not that it's invalid. It's just annoying and stupid. What was Square's true intention of putting Japanese on Ultimania?

To reveal more information about the game for the audience most interested and likely to purchase, the Japanese.

Which means that it's not important for the West to gather new information from something that don't speak thier languages.




It's not my fault that I don't understand Japanese. Therefore, it's not my fault that I got something wrong.

You're incredibly on the defensive, here. Your fault or not, you got something wrong because you didn't have all the information. That DOESN'T make the additional info invalid.

It doesn't make the information more or less invalid. There's a reason why Square doesn't release it in various languages.




Whether it's invalid or not, it doesn't matter. What matters is why Square targetted at Japanese audience. Square feeds the Japanese new information, not the West.

Which again, makes the information no less valid, and no less crushing to your 'interpretations'

Where did I say that it was invalid?




They gave us English VIII and that's it.
If they wanted to re-clarify the plot or whatever, they could of have added English or other languages. But they didn't, so it means... that it's not important.

No. That's like saying if Lucas released a vital bit of SW in English only, it wouldn't matter because he didn't release it in Czech.
It's no less important because they didn't release it in every language.
You just don't like it because it kills your pet 'interpretation.'

-Square releases this new information in an external source for the Japanese.
-Non-Japanese players are unaware of this because of two reasons:
--They don't understand Japanese.
--Ultimanias are not that very recognised in the West. This adds 1 to unawareness.

They play VIII and that's it. That was Square's intention. If it wasn't thier intention, they would of have made Ultimania in various languages. OR re-make VIII.

The players are curious as to what's the difference between thier language in VIII and Japanese due to mis-translations. Players know this because they know that the Japanese developers made the game.

Ultimania on the other hand, not so much.




I didn't create R=U. A mass amount of people did.

Which makes IT no more valid and the Ultimania no less valid for squashing it.

You repeating that statement really boils down to conservatism pretty much. Saying that the Ultimania is invalid wasn't the main intention of my argument.




It's still better to focus on the orginal games, not Ultimanias.
Orginal games don't include mistakes, only Ultimanias do.

"This guy are sick"
"So that's how you'll fool them" "So that's how you fooled them"
The original games DO contain mistakes, and you have YET to substantiate that the Ultis have mistakes, and are essentially SPECIAL PLEADING to disregard this evidence you don't like to protect R=U.

I'm talking about the plot. Not the translations.
I've already substantiated that the Ultimanias include some mistakes.




If Square added English to Ultimanias, it could make a bigger difference. Why didn't they market it worldwide? That's pretty good money, if you ask me.

IF they had the money to release it, IF it sold well in the English speaking world.

They ain't that poor.



But either way, it's irrelevant. They released it. IT COUNTS.

Of course it counts for the Japanese.




It did contradict some people views.

And those people can just go cry in a corner. Their views are not sacrosanct and more important than the creator's story.

Hmm... Imagine me being a creator. Imagine me writing this story and releases it now. People hear about it, they love it and express thier views with other fans.
After hearing thier interpretations myself as the creator. God! I hate these interpretations, how sissy! That wasn't what I expected.
How to change that? Easy, I'd go and make a public announcement and say, "He's gay." Problem solved!

What I'm saying is that once when you create something and release it to the public. Assuming that it has no plot errors, leave it at that! Don't ever modify it in the future. Don't ever modify it just 'cos you don't like your fans' interpretations. You write a story for the audience, not for yourself.




It's not just the manual. That's more than one error.

So where else than the manual and what are these 'other errors?'

I've just told you. AC and the Ultimania.




Hmmm, the manual and the game were created at the same time. So, this manual doesn't qualify as an external source.

The english language manual was not made at the same time as the original japanese language game.

The English language manual was made at the same time as its English-language game.




Are you implying that the external sources are 100% reliable when in fact they have made some errors?

Are you making a gorram red herring AND strawman to try and distract me from the gorram demand for evidence I just made. HOW IS KEFKA'S BIRTHPLACE A CONTRADICTION? SUBSTANTIATE THIS ASSERTION OR CONCEDE IT AS A CONTRADICTION.
Or do I need to be MORE blunt?

So, your defence is that the Ultimanias are perfect?




Go do some research, you'll find better information than I've explained in my previous post. No, don't ask me to explain 'cos I'm not claiming any theory.

But you ARE making assertions, and those DO need to be substantiated. And again, I REFUSE to do you work for you.

I'm not making any assertion.




His English is far better than mine, though.

Which is in fact irrelevant to him not being fun, being off topic, and getting banned almost immediately thereafter.

So, you're admitting that you criticising my English was off-topic?





Latin - Is this Latin? (http://latinforum.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7452)
Is this modern or ancient Greek? (http://www.translatum.gr/forum/index.php/topic,50838.0.html)

LOL! Their replies include words that are... striking, considering that they have never played VIII before.

Serapy, they're saying it's nonsense too.

Way to exaggerate. Some of them are saying it's nonsence, true, but look at thier guesses.




Incorrect grammar = bad
Misspelt words = bad

So, they are the same!

It's not 'misspelled words' it's 'not words at all' which is worse than bad grammar.

Both are essentially worse, since you can't understand a word or can't understand a sentence.




I don't believe in canon, my friend.

You don't have to. That's how it works. You have no say.

A thing separated from another thing but both share the same thing isn't 100% canon.




If it's something that will interest players, why not?

Because it goes against your boss- the creator's- vision.

Really? Then these companies would be less corrupted than they already are.




It's impossible for someone to get a job that he/she desires?

Sometimes, it is.

Not if you have a great level of motivation.




If nobody were greedy, then I could see your point. There are other factors to consider, too.

Yes, like your complete Japanese illiteracy.

I'm going to have to assume that you don't understand Japanese, too. So, what are you saying is a perfect example of hypocrisy.




So, Square randomly adds text that serves no purpose and yet it's similar to one word that is relevant to the plot. That's one hell of a crazy coincidence, yo.

'Dummy Text' is a common shortcut, Serapy.

Shortcuts can't exist without something, such as any reason or meaning.




So, in your logic, the lions on Ultimecia's castle are connected with Squall, too.

Nope. They aren't linked with Squall. Squall is linked with lions. Not all Lions are linked with Squall.

Are you implying that Ultimecia pulling Griever out of Squall's head is not connected with himself?

When Griever came into existence, it's still connected with Squall. It's very possible that the lions on her Castle are connected with Squall. How can the symbolism of bravery and loyalty fit Ultimecia? Unless she's Rinoa, or Ultimecia showing bravery and loyalty in the name of her dead husband.




That his lions being connected with each other is true.

'His' lions? Squall is linked with lions, but not all lions are linked with Squall.

That's not true.




In your logic, his last name is not an obvious link with Lion, then.Don't ever mention Kingdom Hearts. It's not connected with VIII.

No, in my logic, the name meaning 'Heart of a Lion' is an obvious link to him being represented by lions. But this does not mean he is represented by ALL lions.

Lion is a symbol of bravery and loyalty. So, saying that not all lions are connected with himself sort of defeats his symbol of a lion in the first place.




If it keeps showing up in the game, it doesn't necessarily make it cool. There are too many things in the game that are already cool.

So there's a limit on cool?

If everything in VIII was for bein' cool, it will have a lot of plot errors.




It is meaningless. Whatever you're agruing that's not relevant to VIII is always meaningless.

Then all of your threads are meaningless, because none of them are actually relevant to the plot of FFVIII.

Everything what I've shown here (e.g. dialogues, events, visual images, etc) are actually relevant to VIII. Therefore, what I did wasn't meaningless. True, I've mentioned some tiny information that doesn't actually exist in VIII; and thus irrelevant. But that doesn't mean meaningless as a whole. Way to exaggerate, brother.

You, on the other hand, criticising my English was irrelevant and meaningless because it's not about VIII.




Other than him criticising your English, I agree with some of his points based on VIII.

So, you DO agree that you're off topic, then?
And he was incorrect in his criticism of my English.

Whenever you feel that something or someone is incorrect, you would usually sense the great temptation to fight against it.




I don't recall seeing people calling each other trolls upon my registration on this forum.

That doesn't mean trolls weren't well known three years ago. Trolls were common over a decade ago.

Not in this forum section.




What are we talking about again?

You really don't remember, do you?

Our arguments are leading to various things. I don't think that is normal.




How do you know that they have no connection? Is there any secret dialogue that I'm missing?

You certainly aren't SUBSTANTIATING any connection.

Then we're getting no where.




Interpretation.

Which still needs to be supported, otherwise it is meaningless.

I just don't know why pointing at visual images aren't enough to be supported. Funny how dialogues are the easiest thing to be supported.

[Darth Cid]

Vegeta, what does the scouter say about his credibility level?

IT'S...less than 9.

[Ryushikaze]

Bingo! That was a good example of expressing an opinion. I think and you think differently. Sharing this on the board doesn't still void the meaning of expressing an opinion.

I was being facetious.
And if it IS opinion, it is baseless. Opinions are like assholes. Everyone's got them and they're not worth :bou::bou::bou::bou:.


I have never asserted anything as fact.

That is exactly what you're doing. You are saying there is meaning in symbolism. That these things are present in FF8.


Which means that it's not important for the West to gather new information from something that don't speak thier languages.

Which means they did not have the capital to risk a release in another language of a book tat they weren't sure would sell. It does not mean 'it's not important' or doesn't count or any of your excuses based on it only being in one language.


It doesn't make the information more or less invalid. There's a reason why Square doesn't release it in various languages.

It doesn't make the information invalid at all. Your crying about it only being in Japanese changes nothing.


Where did I say that it was invalid?

You've been trying to say it's invalid, if not using that exact word- since the subject came up.


-Square releases this new information in an external source for the Japanese.
-Non-Japanese players are unaware of this because of two reasons:
--They don't understand Japanese.
--Ultimanias are not that very recognised in the West. This adds 1 to unawareness.

Leading to them not being likely to sell, making Square have less reason to risk them not selling and wasting money.


They play VIII and that's it. That was Square's intention. If it wasn't thier intention, they would of have made Ultimania in various languages. OR re-make VIII.

The players are curious as to what's the difference between thier language in VIII and Japanese due to mis-translations. Players know this because they know that the Japanese developers made the game.

Ultimania on the other hand, not so much.

The players aren't curious about Ultimanias? Or Ultimanias aren't made by the developers? Because if the latter, they WERE.


You repeating that statement really boils down to conservatism pretty much.

Under what gorram definition of 'conservatism' are you using?


Saying that the Ultimania is invalid wasn't the main intention of my argument.

Yes, yes it is. Because YOU want to ignore the information that makes your precious R=U nonsense impossible, saying that it doesn't count because of all these random reasons.


I'm talking about the plot. Not the translations.

TRANSLATIONS INTRODUCE ERRORS INTO THE PLOT.


I've already substantiated that the Ultimanias include some mistakes.

No. YOU HAVE NOT.
You have asserted that an error made in the english language manual holds more precedence than every Japanese source, ever, so you can pretend it's an error in the Ulti.
You've patently REFUSED to substantiate claims to this regard, even when I outright DEMANDED you do so.
CONCESSION ACCEPTED.


They ain't that poor.

'The Spirits Within' nearly bankrupted them.
QED.


Of course it counts for the Japanese.

It counts, PERIOD.


Hmm... Imagine me being a creator. Imagine me writing this story and releases it now. People hear about it, they love it and express thier views with other fans.
After hearing thier interpretations myself as the creator. God! I hate these interpretations, how sissy! That wasn't what I expected.
How to change that? Easy, I'd go and make a public announcement and say, "He's gay." Problem solved!

What I'm saying is that once when you create something and release it to the public. Assuming that it has no plot errors, leave it at that! Don't ever modify it in the future. Don't ever modify it just 'cos you don't like your fans' interpretations. You write a story for the audience, not for yourself.

Imagine me not caring about your hypothetical, which is about as compelling as a wet tissue.
You write a story, feel free to NEVER EVER RELEASE NEW INFORMATION EVER. Or sequels. Those might also contradict the precious interpretations.
Me, other writers? We'll risk crushing a few interpretations along the way. It's our prerogative.


I've just told you. AC and the Ultimania.

And you have yet to explain WHAT THESE ERRORS ARE.


The English language manual was made at the same time as its English-language game.

And it got information from the Japanese version wrong. So I'ma trust the Original Language source.


So, your defence is that the Ultimanias are perfect?

CONCESSION GODDAMN ACCEPTED.
RED HERRING NOTED.
Let me be explicit. I DON'T THINK THE ORIGINAL GAME IS PERFECT. Especially not the translation.


I'm not making any assertion.

You are LYING or IGNORANT. CHOOSE.


So, you're admitting that you criticising my English was off-topic?

No. I'm saying his English is irrelevant to the reason why I did not respond to him further in that topic.


Way to exaggerate. Some of them are saying it's nonsence, true, but look at thier guesses.

They're ALL saying it's complete nonsense, except for the one word, which you never spell that way. You're focusing on them saying this one word is sorta close to a real world and ignoring them saying the rest is gibberish.


Both are essentially worse, since you can't understand a word or can't understand a sentence.

... 1. "Both are worse" than WHAT?
2. THERE ARE NO WORDS TO UNDERSTAND.


A thing separated from another thing but both share the same thing isn't 100% canon.

I refuse to even try and parse this til your grammar and vocabulary improves. Even I have limits on what I will attempt to comprehend, and you're well in the red zone.

All I can figure out is that you're asserting separation means things less canon, which makes no gorram sense.


Really? Then these companies would be less corrupted than they already are.

A claim you base on?


Not if you have a great level of motivation.

Motivation means jack with no skills or experience.


I'm going to have to assume that you don't understand Japanese, too. So, what are you saying is a perfect example of hypocrisy.

You know what they say about assuming. Only in this case, I DO understand Japanese, so it only makes it out of you. But even if I couldn't, it wouldn't make me a hypocrite at all. It would mean I couldn't get a Job at Enix Japan either.


Shortcuts can't exist without something, such as any reason or meaning.

Yes, yes they can. 'The newspaper needs text on it' 'slap this on' is about as far as reason or meaning behind dummy text or most other shortcuts gets.


Are you implying that Ultimecia pulling Griever out of Squall's head is not connected with himself?

You are equivocating. Griever is not any random lion. He is a specific entity with a stated link to Squall. You're just generalizing this to be every lion ever.


When Griever came into existence, it's still connected with Squall. It's very possible that the lions on her Castle are connected with Squall. How can the symbolism of bravery and loyalty fit Ultimecia? Unless she's Rinoa, or Ultimecia showing bravery and loyalty in the name of her dead husband.

Or they are a decoration common to castles.


That's not true.

Yes it is. To assert otherwise is just absurd.


Lion is a symbol of bravery and loyalty. So, saying that not all lions are connected with himself sort of defeats his symbol of a lion in the first place.

No, because it's entirely possible for a Lion to not be symbolically connected with Squall.


If everything in VIII was for bein' cool, it will have a lot of plot errors.

You say this based on?


Everything what I've shown here (e.g. dialogues, events, visual images, etc) are actually relevant to VIII. Therefore, what I did wasn't meaningless. True, I've mentioned some tiny information that doesn't actually exist in VIII; and thus irrelevant. But that doesn't mean meaningless as a whole. Way to exaggerate, brother.

Nope. NOTHING you've asserted here is actually relevant to FF8.You ASSERT it is, but it's not.


You, on the other hand, criticising my English was irrelevant and meaningless because it's not about VIII.

But it is relevant to this discussion because you are incoherent rather often in this thread, and it certainly damages your credibility when you cannot understand others or make yourself be understood. It makes your chances of understanding the game all the slimmer.


Whenever you feel that something or someone is incorrect, you would usually sense the great temptation to fight against it.

So, you DO agree that you're off topic, then?
Not that I didn't fight against him. I quoted the dictionary at him and he refused to admit it invalidated his argument.


Not in this forum section.

Perhaps people weren't as open with their thoughts, but I assure you there were trolls and people thought of as trolls.


Our arguments are leading to various things. I don't think that is normal.

1. It is normal.
2. You DON''T remember.
3. You cannot read the thread to even try and see what we were talking about.


Then we're getting no where.

Because you're not taking it anywhere, like you need to.


I just don't know why pointing at visual images aren't enough to be supported. Funny how dialogues are the easiest thing to be supported.

Because those images don't support what you say they support.

[Serapy]

Bingo! That was a good example of expressing an opinion. I think and you think differently. Sharing this on the board doesn't still void the meaning of expressing an opinion.

I was being facetious.
And if it IS opinion, it is baseless. Opinions are like assholes. Everyone's got them and they're not worth :bou::bou::bou::bou:.

You know what's ironic? Lychon uses these :bou: a lot, too.

Actually, it's not completely baseless. I copy a thing from the game (which is a fact) and paste into here, and then I express an opinion on that thing. That is not completely baseless. Way to exaggerate!




I have never asserted anything as fact.

That is exactly what you're doing. You are saying there is meaning in symbolism. That these things are present in FF8.

No, I have never once said "This is tehh truthzz", "Yo, it's true. Whatever you're saying is false" or something to that effect.

I express my view, and all of a sudden, you'd assume that I'm trying to assert it as fact. So, that's your fault, not mine!




Which means that it's not important for the West to gather new information from something that don't speak thier languages.

Which means they did not have the capital to risk a release in another language of a book tat they weren't sure would sell. It does not mean 'it's not important' or doesn't count or any of your excuses based on it only being in one language.

Then they are blind, because VII and VIII were sold very well in the West.




It doesn't make the information more or less invalid. There's a reason why Square doesn't release it in various languages.

It doesn't make the information invalid at all. Your crying about it only being in Japanese changes nothing.

It does change something. Look at this thread, it's adding up. That doesn't mean it changes nothing.




Where did I say that it was invalid?

You've been trying to say it's invalid, if not using that exact word- since the subject came up.

No, I didn't.




-Square releases this new information in an external source for the Japanese.
-Non-Japanese players are unaware of this because of two reasons:
--They don't understand Japanese.
--Ultimanias are not that very recognised in the West. This adds 1 to unawareness.

Leading to them not being likely to sell, making Square have less reason to risk them not selling and wasting money.

That's not true. Considering that they are a rich company.




They play VIII and that's it. That was Square's intention. If it wasn't thier intention, they would of have made Ultimania in various languages. OR re-make VIII.

The players are curious as to what's the difference between thier language in VIII and Japanese due to mis-translations. Players know this because they know that the Japanese developers made the game.

Ultimania on the other hand, not so much.

The players aren't curious about Ultimanias? Or Ultimanias aren't made by the developers? Because if the latter, they WERE.

No, they aren't.




You repeating that statement really boils down to conservatism pretty much.

Under what gorram definition of 'conservatism' are you using?

conservatism noun
/kənˈsɜː.və.tɪ.zəm/US pronunciation symbol/-ˈsɝː.və.t ̬ɪ-/ n [U]
the quality of often not liking or trusting change, especially sudden change




Saying that the Ultimania is invalid wasn't the main intention of my argument.

Yes, yes it is. Because YOU want to ignore the information that makes your precious R=U nonsense impossible, saying that it doesn't count because of all these random reasons.

No, it's not. 'Awareness' and 'invalid' has two different meanings.




I'm talking about the plot. Not the translations.

TRANSLATIONS INTRODUCE ERRORS INTO THE PLOT.

Not really. For example, Ultimecia saying 'K', instead of 'C', doesn't affect the plot.




I've already substantiated that the Ultimanias include some mistakes.

No. YOU HAVE NOT.

Yes, I have.


You have asserted that an error made in the english language manual holds more precedence than every Japanese source, ever, so you can pretend it's an error in the Ulti.

AC in Japanese supports this.



You've patently REFUSED to substantiate claims to this regard, even when I outright DEMANDED you do so.
CONCESSION ACCEPTED.

I already have. Talking about VII is irrelevant here, if we want to talk about it, let's move to the VII board and talk from there on.

You cannot deny the fact that Ultimanias include some errors.




They ain't that poor.

'The Spirits Within' nearly bankrupted them.
QED.

That's irrelevant. The Spirits Within =/= Ultimania.

Besides, it's much cheaper to produce a Ultimania than a movie.




Of course it counts for the Japanese.

It counts, PERIOD.

It counts for the Japanese. Square created it for them, not non-japanese.




Hmm... Imagine me being a creator. Imagine me writing this story and releases it now. People hear about it, they love it and express thier views with other fans.
After hearing thier interpretations myself as the creator. God! I hate these interpretations, how sissy! That wasn't what I expected.
How to change that? Easy, I'd go and make a public announcement and say, "He's gay." Problem solved!

What I'm saying is that once when you create something and release it to the public. Assuming that it has no plot errors, leave it at that! Don't ever modify it in the future. Don't ever modify it just 'cos you don't like your fans' interpretations. You write a story for the audience, not for yourself.

Imagine me not caring about your hypothetical, which is about as compelling as a wet tissue.
You write a story, feel free to NEVER EVER RELEASE NEW INFORMATION EVER. Or sequels. Those might also contradict the precious interpretations.

It doesn't matter if my story will contradict my fans' interpretations or not. Let them decide it. This story is created to show them, not for myself. I create it to impress them, not create it to impress myself. It's very plausible that my story will lead to various interpretations, anyway.

Creating sequels or whatever to disprove these interpretations will show how selfish I am.

Sure, you may not care about my story, but I'm sure someone else will.



Me, other writers? We'll risk crushing a few interpretations along the way. It's our prerogative.

That's your opinion.




I've just told you. AC and the Ultimania.

And you have yet to explain WHAT THESE ERRORS ARE.

I already have.




The English language manual was made at the same time as its English-language game.

And it got information from the Japanese version wrong. So I'ma trust the Original Language source.

So, you're admitting that external sources don't count? AC in Japanese shows this. AC is an external source, just like the Ultimania.




So, your defence is that the Ultimanias are perfect?

CONCESSION GODDAMN ACCEPTED.
RED HERRING NOTED.

That statement doesn't prove that the Ultimania is perfect.



Let me be explicit. I DON'T THINK THE ORIGINAL GAME IS PERFECT. Especially not the translation.

The VIII Japanese version is not perfect?




I'm not making any assertion.

You are LYING or IGNORANT. CHOOSE.

You've just assumed that I'm asserting anything as fact, which is not true. Otherwise I'd admit it.




So, you're admitting that you criticising my English was off-topic?

No. I'm saying his English is irrelevant to the reason why I did not respond to him further in that topic.

So, it seems that your temptation is overpowering yourself to keep arguing with me. You knew that this is going no where, and yet you keep doing it. I can say the same thing for myself. Oh, dear. The aliens are probably laughing at this.




Way to exaggerate. Some of them are saying it's nonsence, true, but look at thier guesses.

They're ALL saying it's complete nonsense, except for the one word, which you never spell that way. You're focusing on them saying this one word is sorta close to a real world and ignoring them saying the rest is gibberish.

They have never played VIII and yet they said identical words, how can that not raise some suspicion?




Both are essentially worse, since you can't understand a word or can't understand a sentence.

... 1. "Both are worse" than WHAT?
2. THERE ARE NO WORDS TO UNDERSTAND.

Both are worse than nothingness.




A thing separated from another thing but both share the same thing isn't 100% canon.

I refuse to even try and parse this til your grammar and vocabulary improves. Even I have limits on what I will attempt to comprehend, and you're well in the red zone.

All I can figure out is that you're asserting separation means things less canon, which makes no gorram sense.

VIII and Ultimania both share the same thing, but they are in different format. Therefore, not 100% canon.




Really? Then these companies would be less corrupted than they already are.

A claim you base on?

Money.




Not if you have a great level of motivation.

Motivation means jack with no skills or experience.

If you have got some motivation, you're likely to create skills or some experience.




I'm going to have to assume that you don't understand Japanese, too. So, what are you saying is a perfect example of hypocrisy.

You know what they say about assuming. Only in this case, I DO understand Japanese, so it only makes it out of you. But even if I couldn't, it wouldn't make me a hypocrite at all. It would mean I couldn't get a Job at Enix Japan either.

Then you have no motivation.




Shortcuts can't exist without something, such as any reason or meaning.

Yes, yes they can. 'The newspaper needs text on it' 'slap this on' is about as far as reason or meaning behind dummy text or most other shortcuts gets.

If it was a dummy text, it would be like just what you've said earlier, "fkufku agagag ekekekek wowowowo mamamamm kakakak kekeke woo ppeeeeeezz peko kmai odk sdijfsdfj siodjfosidj I9EW3DFKI KSDF MANj".




Are you implying that Ultimecia pulling Griever out of Squall's head is not connected with himself?

You are equivocating. Griever is not any random lion. He is a specific entity with a stated link to Squall. You're just generalizing this to be every lion ever.

I'm talking about lions in the plot. Of course, lions in the gameplay world (such as on world map) aren't connected.




When Griever came into existence, it's still connected with Squall. It's very possible that the lions on her Castle are connected with Squall. How can the symbolism of bravery and loyalty fit Ultimecia? Unless she's Rinoa, or Ultimecia showing bravery and loyalty in the name of her dead husband.

Or they are a decoration common to castles.

Why can't it be something else, not Lions? So, it must have a meaning.




That's not true.

Yes it is. To assert otherwise is just absurd.

No.




Lion is a symbol of bravery and loyalty. So, saying that not all lions are connected with himself sort of defeats his symbol of a lion in the first place.

No, because it's entirely possible for a Lion to not be symbolically connected with Squall.

It's been proven true that a lion represents bravery and loyalty. Squall himself said this in-game. He doesn't state a specific type of lion... he said it in general.




If everything in VIII was for bein' cool, it will have a lot of plot errors.

You say this based on?

Isn't it obvious?




Everything what I've shown here (e.g. dialogues, events, visual images, etc) are actually relevant to VIII. Therefore, what I did wasn't meaningless. True, I've mentioned some tiny information that doesn't actually exist in VIII; and thus irrelevant. But that doesn't mean meaningless as a whole. Way to exaggerate, brother.

Nope. NOTHING you've asserted here is actually relevant to FF8.You ASSERT it is, but it's not.

You're wrong.
I copy things from the game and paste them into here. How is that not relevant or related?




You, on the other hand, criticising my English was irrelevant and meaningless because it's not about VIII.

But it is relevant to this discussion because you are incoherent rather often in this thread, and it certainly damages your credibility when you cannot understand others or make yourself be understood. It makes your chances of understanding the game all the slimmer.

No, it's still not relevant. Criticising English =/= VIII.




Whenever you feel that something or someone is incorrect, you would usually sense the great temptation to fight against it.

So, you DO agree that you're off topic, then?
Not that I didn't fight against him. I quoted the dictionary at him and he refused to admit it invalidated his argument.

I'm taking about you. Not myself. I copy things from the game, so that's not off-topic.




Not in this forum section.

Perhaps people weren't as open with their thoughts, but I assure you there were trolls and people thought of as trolls.

Not in this forum section.




Our arguments are leading to various things. I don't think that is normal.

1. It is normal.
2. You DON''T remember.
3. You cannot read the thread to even try and see what we were talking about.

No, it's not normal. I create various views and you're arguing as if we are talking about one claim.




Then we're getting no where.

Because you're not taking it anywhere, like you need to.

It's getting no where simply because this is all about "let me look at your flaws" and discuss them. You started it, not me.




I just don't know why pointing at visual images aren't enough to be supported. Funny how dialogues are the easiest thing to be supported.

Because those images don't support what you say they support.

Yet you didn't provide evidence that they are actually meaningless.

[Ryushikaze]

You know what's ironic? Lychon uses these :bou: a lot, too.

... I'm not sure what's sadder, that you don't recognize a word filter, or that you're still harping on someone who's been banned for what, three years now.


Actually, it's not completely baseless. I copy a thing from the game (which is a fact) and paste into here, and then I express an opinion on that thing. That is not completely baseless. Way to exaggerate!

You express a baseless opinion.


No, I have never once said "This is tehh truthzz", "Yo, it's true. Whatever you're saying is false" or something to that effect.

You don't have to explicitly state 'this is true' to assert something as being so.


I express my view, and all of a sudden, you'd assume that I'm trying to assert it as fact. So, that's your fault, not mine!

Are you 'expressing' a view you think is not the case?


Then they are blind, because VII and VIII were sold very well in the West.

So did all the FF games, but not their merch does not sell nearly as well as the games in the states.


It does change something. Look at this thread, it's adding up. That doesn't mean it changes nothing.

You repeatedly asserting that it only being in Japanese matters does not mean anything is 'adding up.'


No, I didn't.

You want to disregard information within it as invalid.
Any protestations that you weren't will be given the lack of consideration they deserve.


That's not true. Considering that they are a rich company.

THE SPIRITS WITHIN.
QED.


No, they aren't.

They quite are.


conservatism noun
/kənˈsɜː.və.tɪ.zəm/US pronunciation symbol/-ˈsɝː.və.t ̬ɪ-/ n [U]
the quality of often not liking or trusting change, especially sudden change

And how am I the one not liking change, what with you being the one disliking additional information that kiboshes your precious notions? YOU are the one who dislikes change, child.


No, it's not. 'Awareness' and 'invalid' has two different meanings.

So your response to 'you not being aware does not make it invalid' is 'they have different meanings'
...
Glad you agree with me.
Please stop trying to disregard the Ultimania, then.


Not really. For example, Ultimecia saying 'K', instead of 'C', doesn't affect the plot.

No, but altering dialog DOES. Using words in the translation that have multiple vague meanings does, because it engenders confusion where non existed previously.
Also, Protip: There weren't Ks or Cs in the dialog to begin with.
What with it being written in Japanese.


Yes, I have.

No you have not, and I will thank you to stop lying about this issue.


AC in Japanese supports this.

I HAVE Advent Children in Japanese. In what way do you claim it supports the idea that Ultimanias are in error regarding Cloud's birthday? Because the Japanese website agrees that his birthday is the 11th of August, just like the Ultimania Omega, 10th Aniversary Ultimania, Crisis Core Ultimania, Prologue Book, and Reunion files- which incidentally is written in english- all say.
So please, good sir, SUPPORTS IT HOW.


I already have. Talking about VII is irrelevant here, if we want to talk about it, let's move to the VII board and talk from there on.

IT IS NOT IRRELEVANT BECAUSE IT IS BEING USED TO SUPPORT A CLAIM YOU HAVE MADE.
CONCESSION ACCEPTED.


You cannot deny the fact that Ultimanias include some errors.

YES I CAN. YOU HAVE FAILED TO SUBSTANTIATE THIS IDEA IN ANY FORM. CONCESSION ACCEPTED.


That's irrelevant. The Spirits Within =/= Ultimania.

Besides, it's much cheaper to produce a Ultimania than a movie.

Except that TSW means they have fewer resources to spend on anything other than their games. That, and books and merchandise are less guaranteed sources of income than their games.


It counts for the Japanese. Square created it for them, not non-japanese.

It created its games for the Japanese too. That's why the original games are in Japanese.


It doesn't matter if my story will contradict my fans' interpretations or not. Let them decide it. This story is created to show them, not for myself. I create it to impress them, not create it to impress myself. It's very plausible that my story will lead to various interpretations, anyway.

Creating sequels or whatever to disprove these interpretations will show how selfish I am.

Who ever said you'd be doing it intentionally? You always run the risk. Better never release one period.


Sure, you may not care about my story, but I'm sure someone else will.

And I'm sure they'll care about my story too, even after I upset their assumptions.


That's your opinion.

If this is merely my opinion, then yours is also an opinion, and unpopular one, and cannot be used to enforce an idea at all, meaning that it's COMPLETELY MEANINGLESS in your argument to allow you to ignore sequels, Ultimanias, and other sources of information.


I already have.

You have not.
REPEATED EVASION NOTED.
Concession accepted.


So, you're admitting that external sources don't count? AC in Japanese shows this. AC is an external source, just like the Ultimania.

AC in Japanese shows Cloud's Birthday to be the same as it is listed in the Ultimania and the Japanese instruction manual.


That statement doesn't prove that the Ultimania is perfect.

And THAT statement doesn't prove that your previous comment is anything but a red herring and set an absurd standard of evidence that you certainly aren't holding yourself to.


The VIII Japanese version is not perfect?

It does not give the whole of the information, so no.


You've just assumed that I'm asserting anything as fact, which is not true. Otherwise I'd admit it.

Ignorant, then.


So, it seems that your temptation is overpowering yourself to keep arguing with me. You knew that this is going no where, and yet you keep doing it. I can say the same thing for myself. Oh, dear. The aliens are probably laughing at this.

Better adjust your tinfoil hat, then, conspiracy theorist.
Again, making an assumptions as to my mental state are merely making an ass of you.


They have never played VIII and yet they said identical words, how can that not raise some suspicion?

Because they all said 'No, this is gibberish, except for sorta this, and it's wrong anyways.'


Both are worse than nothingness.

You have no idea what you're talking about any more, do you?


VIII and Ultimania both share the same thing, but they are in different format. Therefore, not 100% canon.

That's not how canon works, sunshine.


Money.

Just 'money'.
So they're corrupt from the get go. Even when making VIII.


If you have got some motivation, you're likely to create skills or some experience.

Not on the way to the interview, skippy.


Then you have no motivation.

I have no motivation because I understand Japanese?
Sense, you make none of it.


If it was a dummy text, it would be like just what you've said earlier, "fkufku agagag ekekekek wowowowo mamamamm kakakak kekeke woo ppeeeeeezz peko kmai odk sdijfsdfj siodjfosidj I9EW3DFKI KSDF MANj".

You do realize you've spelled 'gag', 'man', 'mama', and 'wow' in your string of dummy text? Hardly helping your idea that we'd never find real words or nearly so in dummy text.


I'm talking about lions in the plot. Of course, lions in the gameplay world (such as on world map) aren't connected.

So which 'lions in the plot' do you refer to, then? Just to remind you, scenery isn't automatically plot.


Why can't it be something else, not Lions? So, it must have a meaning.

Because Lions demonstrate the opulence and power of the person who owns the castle. They impress the visitors.


No.

Concession accepted.
Any time you respond to me with single word responses or nonsense, I'm just going to accept you as having forfeited the point you were trying to make.


It's been proven true that a lion represents bravery and loyalty. Squall himself said this in-game. He doesn't state a specific type of lion... he said it in general.

The lion is his symbol. That does not mean ALL lions are his symbol. Wings are Rinoa's symbol, but not all wings are her symbol.


Isn't it obvious?

Nope. Explain the logic underlying this conclusion.


You're wrong.
I copy things from the game and paste them into here. How is that not relevant or related?

The things you say, the things you come up with, are irrelevant and unrelated.


No, it's still not relevant. Criticising English =/= VIII.

It is relevant because if you make no sense, then you will say nothing but nonsense.


I'm taking about you. Not myself. I copy things from the game, so that's not off-topic.

You are not 'copying' anything. You are making stuff up willy nilly and saying it's from the game.


Not in this forum section.

You keep telling yourself that, sunshine.


No, it's not normal. I create various views and you're arguing as if we are talking about one claim.

Statements such as that only convince me further that you're not actually reading or understanding anything I say.


It's getting no where simply because this is all about "let me look at your flaws" and discuss them. You started it, not me.

It's getting no where because you constantly refuse to support any of your notions with anything but further notions, go on the defensive ANY time people take any umbrage with your asinine notions, make excuse after excuse to ignore anything you don't like, and just in general refuse to do the ONE THING you need to do in this thread, which is SUPPORT THE NOTIONS YOU ARE FORWARDING IN THESE VARIOUS THREADS WITH ACTUAL EVIDENCE AND WELL REASONED ARGUMENTS.
Stop acting like everything you say is patently obvious or that we're just picking on you to pick on you because NEITHER is true. You see links where none exist. You see 'identicalness' in everything, even in things which are nothing alike, or which are not being COMPARED to anything.
Kiddo, you need to take a step back and reevaluate what you're doing, because I'm NOT the only who thinks this. I might be the only one willing to speak my mind, but I guarundamntee you I do not think these things in isolation.
I say to you, snowflake, in ALL seriousness, that you should begin conducting yourself in the manner of a rational, intelligent discourse, if you want ANY hope of convincing ANYONE that you have a valid point to make.


Yet you didn't provide evidence that they are actually meaningless.

And you didn't provide any evidence that they have any meaning. And that is the crux of the problem. You say they have meaning, but never support this idea, never fulfill your burden of proof. You want everyone else to do the work, when it's YOU who has to do it first!

[Eaglegun]

Since time is compressed, the tunnel is from ff7. Squall could have had an opportunity to fight Sephiroth. :P