Where is the line?

[Wolf Kanno]

The line that separates when a game is bad because it's poorly designed versus one where the player ability just isn't up to snuff? I mean can we honestly say the games of yesteryear were bad and only nostalgia and them being the only option is why we hail them as legends? Or do you sometimes feel players mistake their own fledgling skills as the game just being poorly designs.

To keep this from falling in too deep with that other thread about Easy Mode, what do you feel constitutes as poor design?

[Fynn]

Gosh. This is a really tough question. The only times I've ever complained about the design of the game had nothing to do with me being bad at it - FFXIII is insultingly easy, and yet I think it's poorly designed in every way, with everything in both gameplay and story being just pointless and wasted effort.

[Pheesh]

I've never complained that a game was poorly designed because I was bad at it. If a game is too hard and offers no way of changing the difficulty then it does a bad job of making itself accessible and has failed in one aspect of its design, but it hasn't automatically failed in all aspects of its design.

As for the other question my opinion is this. A game is poorly designed when it a) isn't either fun, relaxing or cathartic and b) has bad story elements (this includes plot, characterisation, emotional investment etc). A game can excel in one of those two things and still be a great game (something like Flower or Rocket League spring to mind), but ideally a game is good or excellent at incorporating both of them. If a game lacks any of those characteristics then I can officially label it a bad game.

[Ayen]

I can think of a couple of examples, but they definitely fall on the extreme side.

Dark Castle for the Sega Genesis design was horrid. The controls are nearly impossible and the guy will fall over at the most mundane things imaginable. And the rope detection is a gamble each and every time.

Sword of Sodan was so horrid it has a level that walkthroughs recommend you skip because there are pit traps you have to avoid and the enemy always stand right on the other side of them so you can't jump over them, and there's NO way to otherwise tell where they're at. I only got past that level on pure dumb luck. Also, wanna turn around? Hold down B and press the left/right directional buttons. What? Huh? SMURF B!

Superman 64 is a mess. Superman's punches and movement are slow as smurf, making you take plenty of hits before you can even fight back, the hit detection is so bad you can't tell if you're actually doing damage, and everything explodes at the slightest physical contact. Even cardboard boxes.

Broken Helix had horrible controls that kind of remind me of Resident Evil to an extent, but with no running, and just following a guy can be a chore. No, really, there's a plotline where you have to follow marines and stay close to them or else they kill you, and you can get stuck on people and things making it harder than it should be.

So, I guess my answer would be, when the design is so bad it's in your face.