Can someone explain 'Provoke' in explicit detail?

[Rejuvenation]

Hey guys,

I'm aware that this WAR job ability is used to accrue aggro, but I've noticed in several instances, while in a party, that it hasn't always been 100% effective.

For example, as a primary WAR, I've failed to gain aggro on a foe who was targeting a secondary WAR, regardless of whether they used a melee attack straight after my use of provoke (which could provoke the adversary back into their direction). Hence, it hasn't always been possible to control aggro in the party at my own will.

Why would this be the case? Is the effectiveness of provoke based on any particular stats? I do recall hearing that it was dependent on one's defence, but I require some elaboration on that aspect.

Thanks

[Citizen Bleys]

Provoke isn't for generating aggro, it's for generating hate. There's a subtle difference. (For instance, if you walk in front of a goblin, which aggros to sight, it'll attack you, but your hate is still minimal. There might be a token hate assignment when a monster aggros.) If the puller attacks a mob, it hates that puller, but it's still aggro to the entire group, for example.

When a mob engages a party, it attacks whoever it hates the most. There are a number of ways to generate hate. Casting debuffs generates a small amount of hate. Also, whenever you damage a foe, you generate hate equal to the amount of damage done. Likewise, if you heal someone who is damaging a mob, your hate increases by the amount of HP you heal. Hence, if your puller hits a gob for 1 HP (assume the healer has low atk), and the gob hits the puller for 45hp, and then the whm heals the thief for 30, the gob will hate the whm more--especially due to negative hate. (If a mob damages you, your hate rating is decreased by the amount of damage taken)

Provoke is a skill that generates a lot of hate. Ideally, you want the tank in the group to soak up hate like a sponge, so that the whm and blm can cast away without accruing more hate than the tank, since the tank has a higher defense. As a tank, if you provoke every 30 seconds, you generally stay at the top of the hate list, no matter how much the blm or mnk damages the enemy, or how much the whm heals you. (Benediction and Curaga being the exception--Since they heal the whole party for upwards of 90 HP, it generates almost 600 hate, which can take a lot of provokes to undo.

The amount of hate generated by provoke depends on your level, as well.

As a WAR, you will want to make sure you always have the best armor you can equip (as this reduces negative hate, since you're taking less damage) and provoke every 30 seconds. Skillchaining is also good, since it does more damage and more damage = more hate. Even better, once you get to lv 18, sub whm to your warrior--that way you can cure yourself and soak up even more hate. This will also mean the whm will be freed to cure other party members when they get hit (or when the enemy uses a radius-damage spell that hits your whole party) or use their MP for debuffs, which generate very little hate and can end the battle faster, which makes it easier to exp chain.

[Rejuvenation]

Ah, I wasn't aware of the hate system. From an empirical standpoint, I can say that it makes a lot of sense to me now.

Yes, there have been many instances where mages have been victimised due to the disorder in the party between the melee characters, and the misuse of provoke. I wasn't aware that the more advanced magic spells would play a role in this.

So, basically, as a primary WAR, it's about maintaining the level of hate you generate on a permanent basis (or until you're worn out, and require another character with a high defence to take damage), rather than a simple 'provoke' exchange.

Thank you for that articulate description, Citizen Bleys :)

[Lionx]

Keep in mind there is a difference between JobAbility "spiked" hate and heal/damage "perpetual" hate. Provoke spiked hate causes a "spike" of aggro (not sure how much, but its substantial) when executed which decreases automatically over time, while heal/damage hate will stay with you, only dropping as you get hit(hence PLDs heal to keep hate). So other than Provoke (which you should spam every 30 seconds), keep your other JA handy for when you really need the hate, like when BLM is casting a powerful spell or someone using a powerful WS and your provoke is not almost ready(assuming your a PLD).

So Provoke every 30 secs will somewhat stack the hate even though it drops off reletively fast because its the spike hate. Using Shield Bash or a powerful strike or healing will make perpetual. Invincible is also spiked hate from PLD, but its also much higher hate gen than Provoke. Also every hit you do gains aggro, sometimes all it takes is one hit to turn the monster back to you, so whatever you do hit the monster even if its a little. But also keep in mind that they lose aggro everytime the monster hits you, not by a whole lot but you do lose hate per monster hit onto you.

Best uses to use Provoke? Before the Skillchain effect and/or/during Magic Burst to get that big spike.

Also remember AF gear for WAR and PLD, they have +Enmeity(hate), so every swing= more hate. HP healed and damage isnt exactly the way to calculate hate because there seems to be a little hidden factor to it when you run accross a goblin or something. Being a PLD helps you understand this more than a WHM however...Hope that helps.


Even better, once you get to lv 18, sub whm to your warrior--that way you can cure yourself and soak up even more hate. This will also mean the whm will be freed to cure other party members when they get hit (or when the enemy uses a radius-damage spell that hits your whole party) or use their MP for debuffs, which generate very little hate and can end the battle faster, which makes it easier to exp chain.

That is the WORST combo in the game despite the horrible thing they put in the strat guide. You have like 40 MP for reletively 10hp cures, 15 at most, and that isnt enough to keep hate. You also have to rest to get MP back therefore loss of TP for skillchain which kills mobs faster, in fact,WAR/WHM will slow down the party due to lack of abilities and limiations. Thats just a PLD wannabe that never really lifts off the ground. WAR/MNK with boost can mini-provoke a bit, so you do that. Counter works well too, so WAR/WHM=shiet, WAR/MNK=good til lvl 60 at least.

Not permanent basis for holding hate, but consistant with every single hit and magic used during the battle. You have to know when to use abilties, you cant just fire off 5 min abilties and expect them to be there next battle. Know what abilites to use. Like Mage in trouble(hopefully they dont run too fast), and then Beserk and BAM it back to you, then press + to turn it off and get that DEF back up. Its Situational, not just spam abilities(cept voke). Everyone in the party needs to know how to manage hate.

[Rejuvenation]

Thanks for distinguishing between the types of hate, lionx. It does explain the sudden switch of targets when HATE-up actions are executed.

I haven't yet reached the stage where a Paladin becomes available, but the job seemingly undermines the flaws of the WAR, and satisifies the conditions of the primary tank more suitably.

I think the WAR/WHM combination is more suitable for solo affairs, as it may assist characters in 'decent challenges' for that extra bit of security.

[Learza]

F.Y.I.

if the mages in the grp stand away as far as possible the hate is not generated as much. This also allows time for the war./voker of ur grup to provoke the baddie agin without the mage gettin hit...and since no one likes to see lil taru dead...this is a good tip...lol

[Citizen Bleys]

That's also more important with gobs--As far as I understand it, Bomb Toss gets stronger when the mages are right close. I've never had it coherently explained to me, but it seems to be true from my limited observations.

[Learza]

yeah that makes sense..last night we fightin gobs...bomb toss...mgs was close..the hole pty took 65 pts of dmg... then i told em too bak off...bomb toss #2... only 2 ppl took 30 dmg..

[Lionx]

Um you dont get hate by standing close, you just fall into the place of area attk like that bomb.

Bomb toss can be quite random, nothing is conclusive about it, maybe more targets=more dmg. But it depends. No real conclusive evidence that this is normal. After all a low lvl gob can throw a bomb and do 1dmg to a party that just stand in its range.

[Citizen Bleys]

Not really--bomb toss is a goblin WS. They have to hit you a few times to build up TP before using bomb toss. And I think the damage depends on who is hit--if the mages get hit, expect massive damage to everybody.

[Lionx]

Makes little sense, i see very little conclusive evidence..any screen shots on multiple experiments on Incredibly Tough Gobs?