Question

[Raistlin]

When making personal threads, from what I can remember Staff saying, the person making the thread has the option between GC and EoEO. There's no definite rules between them, except that a thread made in EoEO will have significantly less spam.

Now, why isn't this the same for EotW? When making a thread about current events, if the person making the thread considers the topic to be more light-hearted discussion, why can't he/she make it in GC? And if people start to discuss things more seriously, so what?

[RSL]

Otherwise there would be no point in banning them from EoTW if they can just take the same crap to General Chat.

[fire_of_avalon]

1) As I stated in my reply when I closed them, we have EotW for a reason. The fastest way to politicize a question is to include viewpoints on conservativism and and liberalism. If you're going to politicize something to that extreme, you can't have random spam. This leads me to point 2.

2) Those threads were full of spam. Spam by several members who are currently or have been in the very near past, banned from EoEO/EotW for spamming. I'm not going through those threads and deleting every spam post. If the people who made those threads want to discuss them, they can remake the threads in EotW. There's no rule against that.

[Raistlin]

Then why the contradiction between EoEO and EotW's policy? What purpose do EoEO bans have? To keep people from putting inappropriate things in a more restricted forum.

Why couldn't I post something more light-hearted like <a href="http://www.venganza.org/">The Flying Spaghetti Monster theory</a> in GC, and if that topic turned into a serious discussion about religion, so what?

[RSL]

Why do you think we need to have the same policy for Eyes on Each Other and Eyes on The World?

[Shlup]

I liked the thread being in Gen Chat 'cause I got to call Raist a capitalist pig. Best thing I did all day.

[Raistlin]

Why do you think we need to have the same policy for Eyes on Each Other and Eyes on The World?
Well, the same theory is behind both forums: having a place where people can more seriously discuss certain issues. EoEO is for personal/intellectual things, whereas EotW is for current events/politics/history. Why can I make the choice where to make a philosophy thread, but not a politics thread?

[Shlup]

He makes a valid point.

Ban 'im.

[Raistlin]

See, Shlup agrees with me!

Now either the Apocolypse is about to happen, in which case the point is moot, or I actually do have a point that needs to be resolved. :p

[RSL]

I don't think so. We were having a fine time with no political threads in General Chat until we started temp banning people from the EoTW forum. Suddenly political threads are popping up in general chat involving many of these same people! What is the point of the punishment if we allow this?

[Shlup]

Capitalist pig.

[Raistlin]

I don't think so. We were having a fine time with no political threads in General Chat until we started temp banning people from the EoTW forum. Suddenly political threads are popping up in general chat involving many of these same people! What is the point of the punishment if we allow this?
Could I make a relationship question in GC? What's the point of banning people from EoEO if they could just make a thread like that in GC? Could I make a philosophy thread in GC? What's the point of banning someone from EoEO if I could just make a philosophy thread in GC? I could go on and on.

[RSL]

Do relationship threads turn into flame wars often? I don't know because I rarely visit EoEO. If they do, then perhaps we need to look into your idea.

[Raistlin]

It seems that Staff is biased against political threads. Just like that whole Feedback fiasco during April Fools, when people spam/flame in a certain type of thread/forum, it's stupid to punish the thread type/forum. If people flame, warn them. If they continue to flame, ban them. You do the same thing with spamming.

[Del Murder]

Eotw was created to house all the political type topics so that people who like to argue and make sarcastic comments toward one another can have a place to do so without annoying the rest of us. If I had my way all political talk would be banned from this forum, so be lucky you at least have that place to show off your views.

[Shlup]

It seems that Staff is biased against political threads.
Because political threads are stupid.

[Raistlin]

Eotw was created to house all the political type topics so that people who like to argue and make sarcastic comments toward one another can have a place to do so without annoying the rest of us. If I had my way all political talk would be banned from this forum, so be lucky you at least have that place to show off your views.
Now that's stupid. If you don't like a thread, don't read it. How does the mere presence of a link annoy you?

[RSL]

Some of us have to read those threads! We can't have no staff members reading them or else all hell would break loose.

[Shlup]

I thought it was a great idea at the time. Still do. EoEO was like 70% political threads at the time, and going into the forum was like "argh, my face is pinched uncomfortably." Now it's just like "haha girls don't like you."

[XxSephirothxX]

Eotw was created to house all the political type topics so that people who like to argue and make sarcastic comments toward one another can have a place to do so without annoying the rest of us. If I had my way all political talk would be banned from this forum, so be lucky you at least have that place to show off your views.
Now that's stupid. If you don't like a thread, don't read it. How does the mere presence of a link annoy you?
I think it's more the fact that virtually every political discussion quickly dissolves into senseless bickering.

[Raistlin]

Some of us have to read those threads! We can't have no staff members reading them or else all hell would break loose.
So why does it make a difference if that thread is in GC or EotW?


I think it's more the fact that virtually every political discussion quickly dissolves into senseless bickering.
*repeats last question*

[RSL]

So why does it make a difference if that thread is in GC or EotW?

This is an issue of evading a punishment. That is all. Go make those threads in EoTW and all will be fine. If you can't because you are banned, well that sucks I guess! It was all explained from the beginning!

[Raistlin]

So why does it make a difference if that thread is in GC or EotW?

This is an issue of evading a punishment. That is all. Go make those threads in EoTW and all will be fine. If you can't because you are banned, well that sucks I guess! It was all explained from the beginning!
So why the different policy for EoEO? Why does it make a difference between EoEO and EotW?

It's not the thread types. EoEO is not the "this is the only place you can discuss personal issues," nor is EotW the "this is the only place you can discuss current events/history/politics." EoEO is the "this is the only place you can discuss personal issues <i>seriously with no chance of undue amounts of spam</i>" forum.

[Shlup]

If it's just a matter of not reading threads that don't look appealing, why have different forums at all? Threads are seperated into different categories for a reason.

People are given the option whether to make a personal thread in EoEO or GC to give them a sense of control over a personal issue, or something that can be discussed generally. Politics isn't a broad and general topic anymore than a thread about games can go in GC because it's about games in general.

[XxSephirothxX]

I think it's more the fact that virtually every political discussion quickly dissolves into senseless bickering.
*repeats last question*
I was simply trying to show what I thought Del Murder was saying--it wasn't that he disliked the presence of the threads, though I imagine you were being sarcastic when you typed that.

[Del Murder]

It annoys me because people bickering in one thread often finds its way into others. I am not biased against political threads. I am biased against people acting like idiots and making fun of each other. For some reason these two things can't be mutually exclusive. My truce with those who like to argue politics and current events was to ignore that forum, and I did also ignore those few threads in GC about these things, but since this is all out in the open I thought I'd say my piece.

[Raistlin]

If it's just a matter of not reading threads that don't look appealing, why have different forums at all? Threads are seperated into different categories for a reason.

People are given the option whether to make a personal thread in EoEO or GC to give them a sense of control over a personal issue, or something that can be discussed generally. Politics isn't a broad and general topic anymore than a thread about games can go in GC because it's about games in general.
Ok, off politics. How about Talk Like a Pirate Day. That's a current event - why isn't that in EotW? Or religion - a thread about religion should, going by forum definitions - go in EotW. Or history. But if any of those threads were made in GC, they wouldn't be closed. Only political threads. That's a logical contradiction in staff policy, and shows an unreasonable bias against those threads.

EDIT:

I am biased against people acting like idiots and making fun of each other.
Then don't punish political threads, punish the people who are idiots.

[Shlup]

I don't think the bias is unreasonable.

[fire_of_avalon]

This is a dumb thing to argue about. EotW is for political/world events threads. That is where we put them, and that's where they should stay.

The difference between EoEO and EotW lies in specificity. This is also the difference between EotW and GC. EotW is VERY SPECIFIC in it's subject matter. A certain type of thread goes there. A specific type of thread. There's no reason for us to let a bunch of those types of threads stay in GC when you have one half serious discussion and one half LOLZ OLZ LOLZ. That's not fair to the thread starter, that's not fair to those who partake in serious discussion, and that's not fair to staff for having to keep track of them when they can just as easily be put in their proper place.

Now, why then, can we decide to put something in GC over EoEO, though it's likely a personal matter or question? Because those are non-specific areas. They have their rules, yes, but not exact rules as to what kinds of threads go there. In EoEO, the rule is serious threads and serious responses. That's it, (besides various other forum wide rules, such as no flaming, no porn, etc. etc.). Similarly, GC has simple rules. Relaxed threads and relaxed responses. If you want to share an amusing or unusual relationship experience, you can put it in GC. If you want advice on this same experience, you put it in EoEO. Dependng upon the type of answers you want, it's your choice. Similarly, EotW is for discussion of a specific type, and that specific type of discussion should be restrained to EotW. Now, please take another look at those threads in GC. Those follow the exact pattern of an EotW discussion. Those threads have their place, and can be remade there.

There is no sense in making all different kinds of threads in all the different forums. What would be the point in making a political thread in the FFX forum? Nothing. I see it as the same thing as making a political thread in the GC forum. It's like putting your shoes in the wrong shoebox.

[RSL]

Then don't punish political threads, punish the people who are idiots.

Since they are already banned from that forum, then should we just go ahead and perman ban them from teh forums completely?

[Raistlin]

The difference between EoEO and EotW lies in specificity. This is also the difference between EotW and GC. EotW is VERY SPECIFIC in it's subject matter. A certain type of thread goes there. A specific type of thread. There's no reason for us to let a bunch of those types of threads stay in GC when you have one half serious discussion and one half LOLZ OLZ LOLZ. That's not fair to the thread starter, that's not fair to those who partake in serious discussion, and that's not fair to staff for having to keep track of them when they can just as easily be put in their proper place.
"Eyes on the World" is specific? There are a ton of threads which fit into that. Including, arguably, such threads like Talk Like a Pirate Day.

Posts like "LOL LOLZ" aren't even allowed in GC. Punish the spammers, then, not the thread types. As I said, history, religion, and other current-events threads would be allowed in GC...why just exclude political threads? There's no logical reason outside Staff just doesn't like political threads, which isn't much of a valid reason.

[Shlup]

I think the fact that political threads are disliked by a large percentage of EoFF members, as well as I think 100% of the staff, is a perfectly valid reason to keep the specifically confined. This is a message board. This isn't the senate. This is something done to keep people happy, and if the only reasons to not do this are for the sake of some misguided sense of consistancy then that's not much of a reason at all. They are consistant. They consistantly keep political threads away from the majority, which does not like them.

[Sasquatch]

How specific do the forums need to be, though? If we can't post political threads anywhere but EoTW, doesn't that mean we can't post current events, or personal threads, anywhere but EoEO? Then what's the use of GC?

By the way. Go Bears!

[fire_of_avalon]

Hi Raistlin. I'm a staff member, and I like political threads. I read a lot of threads in EotW. Sometimes, I read more in there than I do in GC.

I explained why I closed the threads. I also explained that members who made those threads in GC can remake them in EotW if they want to.

I will repeat myself. And I will do it once. Re-read the threads in GC that were closed. Those threads follow the exact same pattern and posting style of a "serious discussion" thread in EotW, with the exception of certain GC-esque posts. If it had been different, the threads would have been left alone.

I really don't see what the problem is. World event type threads which merit serious discussion belong in EotW. Both of those threads meritted serious discussion, but were far too long and far too full of spam and partial flaming to move to EotW without going through and deleting things, post by post. I'm not going to do that, because it's a waste of my time.

[Sasquatch]

So wait...you're saying a thread has to be full of spam to be in GC? Threads can be "too serious" to be in General?

[Raistlin]

I think the fact that political threads are disliked by a large percentage of EoFF members, as well as I think 100% of the staff, is a perfectly valid reason to keep the specifically confined.
No, that's backwards. It's not that people dislike politics - people dislike how people act while discussing politics. So instead of punishing political threads in general, punish the people acting like idiots in political threads.
The same logic was behind my argument behind keeping Feedback during the whole April Fools' joke - if people spam Feedback, you punish the spammers instead of closing Feedback.

You're not addressing the real issue here by secluding political discussion. You're merely minimizing the flaming/spamming/whatever, instead of trying to do away with it entirely.

EDIT: foa, that still doesn't make sense, since personal/philosophical/intellectual threads can either go in EoEO or GC. And history/current events/religion/cultural threads can either go in EotW or GC. But political threads are arbitrarily excluded. And Sasquatch also has a valid point.

[Shlup]

You're proposing solutions that require way more time and effort than the staff should be required to invest.

[Del Murder]

Yeah, Shlup has it. It's much more time efficient to just get rid of the topics that cause the problem than all the people involved. Also, for some strange reason most of the people who cause trouble in political topics are much more well behaved in the rest of the forum. Archie is working on a super-version of the kishi AI that should be able to watch every post and every thread.

[Dr Unne]

Well, the same theory is behind both forums: having a place where people can more seriously discuss certain issues.

I think this is a faulty assumption. EoEO is for serious discussion. EotW is to keep the crap from stinking up the rest of the MB. EotW was in fact specifically created to keep politcal bickering out of EoEO and GC because it was annoying everyone.

The "no spam no flaming" policies for the two forums are only similar in appearance. The reason for the policy for EoEO is to provide a place for serious discussion. The purpose of the policy for EotW is a to be lid put over the garbage can to keep the smell out of the rest of the house. Or, if you like, an exercise yard where miscreants can wear themselves out so that they're docile and easier to handle once they re-enter the civilized world. No offense meant (much); I have been one of those miscreants from time to time.

[/non-staff opinion]

[Shlup]

Well that pretty much sums that up. G'job, cracka.

[Sasquatch]

You're proposing solutions that require way more time and effort than the staff should be required to invest.

Wow. Here I go thinking this is sarcasm, and Del completely agrees with it. How dare we ask the staff to put forth effort to moderate this forum!

[Madonna]

Raist, Raist. UYFB, and the mods will sort out the ones who don't. Geez.

[Raistlin]

You're proposing solutions that require way more time and effort than the staff should be required to invest.
...No it doesn't. It just requires reading the threads that they profess to read anyway. :p

You're still going about things backwards - you should be addressing WHY political threads suck so much, instead of trying to hide them in a corner.

But anyway, this has stopped being entertaining, as I'm tired. You probably figured out that I don't give a damn about this, but I did (and do) think that this is a glaring contradiction (where every other EotW-appropriate thread outside politics would be allowed in GC), which is just sweeping all the bad things into a closet instead of fixing them. If people were punished (instead of just EoEO/EotW temp-banned) for flaming/spamming, then there would be less flaming and spamming.

[Azure Chrysanthemum]

They are punished. That's what the bans are FOR. If people persist, they are banned permanently, from all of the forums. If we allow people who are banned in EotW to make the same kind of threads in GC, they are effectively circumventing the punishment and posting about the topics they were banned from posting about. It's a punishment, and it's what happens when people do stuff like that on these forums. If they don't like it, it isn't THAT difficult to not be banned from EotW in the first place.

[Shlup]

You're proposing solutions that require way more time and effort than the staff should be required to invest.

Wow. Here I go thinking this is sarcasm, and Del completely agrees with it. How dare we ask the staff to put forth effort to moderate this forum!
Nope. Wasn't sarcasm. Moderating these forums is a lot of work, for very, very little payoff. And even when there is a payoff is marred by threads in this forum like "OMG hats r so annoying stop doing what you think is fun and wipe my bunnum."

I still think EoFF should have temp bans though. People being poops? Banned for the rest of the day!

[Del Murder]

I think the drunk tank has become the unofficial temp ban here. It's been used a couple times.

[-N-]

I'm growing a beard. I hope it'll be like RSL's one day.

[Shlup]

Should be used more. It pleases me.

[eestlinc]

we give everyone a place to discuss politics because lots of people want to discuss politics. We keep it separate and strictly run in order to keep it somewhat civil. If you can't keep it civil you lose the priviledge of discussing in that forum. That's the way it is. We've discussed it at length both amongst the staff as well as in various feedback threads. The way we run EotW is based on stare decisis. It's settled. Maybe someday we will come to a wholesale reëvaluation of the policy and precedent will be overturned. If that happens, we'll let you know. You can continue to bring new arguments into feedback, that's one reason it's here, but it will take a lot to overturn the precedent we've established.

[Hawkeye]

"No General Chat for me"

How that would kill some people

[eestlinc]

we just ban those people, or take away usernotes.

[theundeadhero]

I think the difference is that the political threads in General Chat turned serious. I don't think The Damn Yankee Land was meant to be serious but that's the way the posts fell out. If it had stayed light-hearted I'm sure it would have stayed open and things would be all pretty, but it didn't. Perhaps the proper thing to do woud have been to move it into the World Events forum instead of closing it, that would have put it in it's place and kept the "banned" people from posting in them, but it's too late for that now. The spam in it would have gotten it closed in World Events anyway.

The Yankees continued thread closed because that's the way of GC. If any type of thread is closed and someone makes a new one to continue it, they always get closed.

The republicans thread seemed closed as a show of force from the staff to me, but not in a bad way. The other thread was closed and if the staff let that one go it would have shown inconsistency in the staffs moderating decisions. It was closed to show that the staff was serious about the decision and the issue shouldn't be pushed any farther.

[Yamaneko]

I haven't read all of this thread, but I know people are complaining about something or other. I will say this: we will not change for you.

[Agent Proto]

I agree with Unne. EoTW was created basically to divide the political/current events from the more personal threads from EoEO, because at the time, those kind of threads tend to stray and turn into flame-fests, because a lot of people don't know how to debate properly and turn to arguing each other.

As for this sudden new rule, which says that "political threads belong in EoTW," I don't really care. I think it's appropriate, because a lot of time, those kind of threads, when not heavily moderated, can and will turn into a flamefest. *shrugs*