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So playing on the general theme of this game, would your heart have a lot of darkness? Would you Heartless be a small fry? Or a big badass boss? Would your heart be strong enough to create a sentient Nobody?
I think my Heartless wouldn't be a Shadow. Probably a Green Requim, or something like that. :D
I'd like to think I would have a Nobody, pretty strong-hearted. I dunno what my Nobody name would be though. Bobby + X = Xybbob? Byxbob?
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I'd like to be a nobody, but I doubt my heart is that strong. If I was a heartless, it would be a supportive/healing/magical heartless.
My name? Jordan + X = Danxjor, Jorxnad, Raxnjord?
Gosh, my available names sound like something from a norse myth.
Anyone gets a Nobody when your heart is seperated from your body and covered in darkness so you become a Heartless. Only those who are strong enough get a special Nobody, so a body close to the original one while the rest becomes monster Nobodies and that is the difference. And being a Nobody itself is impossible anyway because the Ego, the consciousness, so yourself, is shown to be a part of the heart in the storyline of Kingdom Hearts. Like Sora and Xehanort's. Which is the reason why Roxas is Roxas and just a part of Sora, but not Sora himself. He has his own consciousness and not the same before they fuse again like Ansem and Xemnas also have a seperated consciousness. Ansem has Xehanort's, meaning he actually is Xehanort and Xemnas has a new consiousness. The Nobody is just a new person connected to its original, also with memories about the original life and with only a bit of the heart left behind so they need to replace it with a self-created heart.Quote:
Originally Posted by Formalhaut
I would be a Shadow as a Heartless, I think. I can get very mad but actually the core itself is very pure. Very pure light, fitting for Kingdom Hearts.
If I take my nickname, Cetra, my Nobody would be Arctex.
Yeah, no. Only the strongest hearts get Nobodies (that is why there is so little of them compared to Heartless), while the strongest of those become human-shaped Nobodies.Quote:
Originally Posted by SephirothAnyone gets a Nobody when your heart is seperated from your body and covered in darkness so you become a Heartless. Only those who are strong enough get a special Nobody, so a body close to the original one while the rest becomes monster Nobodies and that is the difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Formalhaut
Kingdom Hearts is very vague with being accurate with terms like "strength" and many things in the story were already shown not to be like it was thought by fans. Especially Nobodies.Quote:
Originally Posted by The White Wizard of Fynn
It is even said, Nobodies are born when a heart is swallowed by darkness. A heart. The empty body creates another personality to live without the heart and the missing heart is tried to be replaced. Every other thing would not make sense anyway because the fragments would be lost. There is a certain strength in any heart, like there is darkness in any heart, but lost fragments are no option and would make it impossible for the person to return. And many Heartless existing has many reasons like there are many ways for them to be created, naturally, artificially, et cetera. It would not make sense to banish the physical part into "nowhere". "Strength" is a very general word in the story and very easy to explain in Kingdom Hearts because everyone's strength has its own definition since there is the fairytale-like thought of everyone having a reason to fight, friends who make one stronger, et cetera. Sora even says his heart is defined by his friends. There is like no one in the whole story who has a "weak heart". Either their darkness is strong or their light. And for both types Nobodies can be created. When something is so general you really don't need to say it is necessary. It is like saying "If someone has a talent". Everyone has a talent, no matter what and this also depends on what is defined as talent.
EDIT: So to sum it up, going for what is said alone you would be right but what is important is what actually is in the story. It is also said in the glossary of 3D Nobodies have no hearts even though this is not exactly right and this is not changed even after you get to know. And there are many such things. Even talking about both body and mind fragment for the Nobody is something that is misleading because of the story and the real definition of mind, which would normally also make it, so the mind, part of a Heartless (even if they act instinctively), especially if you go for the first definition of Yen Sid who calls a Nobody, an empty vessel which creates a new personality while the Nobody still has memories of his original past. Heartless also have memories of their past and they should mainly be the mind part because all the heart fragment part is pretty much equal to terms like "ego", "consciousness", "soul"; "will"; et cetera. Spiritual. Not everything in Kingdom Hearts is said exactly like it is shown in the story, especially Kingdom Hearts itself, Heartless and Nobodies are complex and not every word follows exactly what it really is. And strength is also a formable word here, you see.
I'm just going by what Xigbar said in Days. He specifically mentions that not every person produces a Nobody, only the strongest, and the cream of the crop get to look like humans. His words, not mine.
I know what KH II and Days and 3D say but by now you should know that there were several things shown not to be like explained. Kingdom Hearts often ignores or retcons things or changes them in general for the sake of the "greater good", et cetera.Quote:
Originally Posted by The White Wizard of Fynn
I agree. But I personally do not agree with the theory that everybody produces a Nobody, simply because there are far more Heartless than Nobodies. My guess as to how those people can come back to life is that just slaying the Heartless is enough for that to work here. So, Iif your heart is weaker, it's actually easier for you to come back. What happens to the body once the Heartless form, then? Who knows? We might get to know some more about that later. And if evereyody does indeed get a Nobody, why are there so few of them? What happens to the rest?
The problem about this is that it is not a theory. The facts of Kingdom Hearts are that strength is defined differently for every single being. And you don't even need to be good to have a strong heart since it is a "there can be no good without evil" story and we all know Xehanort has one of the strongest hearts ever.Quote:
Originally Posted by The White Wizard of Fynn
As said, you are right if you go only for what is said about this topic. But I know that. Still, all things together make no sense then because of what a heart and its strength is said to be and the fact that the body cannot be just thrown into a trash can never being used again. So it cannot be like this if you really want to be totally specific and detailed considering everything that is said and shown.
Heartless can be made artificially (Ansem did, Xemnas did probably (not directly stated) for his experiments to seperate a Heartless from the Self, the Ego, the consciousness, and Doctor Finkelstein did) and also re-appear in case they are destroyed with an ordinary weapon.Quote:
Originally Posted by The White Wizard of Fynn
That would be paradox because of Coded's explanation and the fact that the Nobody is the physical fragment. Sora returned before, yes. But that had other reasons like Kairi and meta-story and the biggest one was the meta-story reason that there was not even known what a Nobody was and that the hero cannot finish the first game without a body. And slaying a Heartless either frees the heart (via Keyblade) or creates a new Heartless (via any other weapon).Quote:
Originally Posted by The White Wizard of Fynn
I cannot really claim that there are less Nobodies, just less known types. And the main reason is that Heartless, the embodiements of darkness, are the main type enemies of the story. Nobodies are also beings of the void, they don't need anything urgently other than Heartless. Heartless are instinctive, they are animals (even though their original ego remains, they still are overwhelmed by the instinct since darkness controls them). Nobodies think and plan and wait for the moment to strike. And except the Organization there really was nobody of the Nobodies who really wanted something. Only the Organization wanted hearts and that was just a plan of Xehanort because he knew Nobodies actually still have a bit of their original heart left and replace the rest naturally since the body can re-create something like a new heart. And Xehanort's physical part only wanted to collect hearts because of the plan to make the Organization part of Xehanort himself by letting them fuse with his heart. So there really is no real story or reason for any other Nobodies to appear. Also, a Heartless can be born everywhere. Nobodies not. The materialize in certain locations like Twilight Town or the World that never was when the heart becomes the Heartless. They are abandoned from light and darkness.Quote:
Originally Posted by The White Wizard of Fynn
You are right about we do not know what is shown in the future, however.
I guess a PM is better for an answer to me or we become nuisances for those who really want to follow the original topic.
Double checking on the KH Wiki (I realize that is user-edited thus can be fallible), it would seem you are both right. When a person's heart is taken and a Heartless is born, then in the Twilight/In-Between realm there is a Nobody born. Because the average heart is not that strong, the resulting Nobody will not survive long (rather vague: either it ceases to exist because it is weak-willed or it is killed by other Nobodies). The stronger the heart, the more human-like the Nobody. The thing is that the strength of the heart is not a quantitative measurement (though I am sure Terranort would have tried to measure it) but a qualitative one. It directly correlated to the will. The stronger the will, the stronger the heart. Also, this degenerative nature of the Nobodies would correlate with the threats by Xehanort's Heartless to the Org. XIII members of turning them into Dusks, etc...So the reason why an average person can be restored after their Heartless is defeated is because their heart was rather weak so their Nobody didn't survive the transition anyways.
I know all of the official KH game and Ultimania information since I have them but unfortunately that does not change that the information given in the games are not enough and misleading. And Wikipedia is the last thing I trust. It is all about "what says and shows the game?" and that causes paradoxes. That was my whole point. And as said, the strength of the heart in Kingdom Hearts is shown to be complex. Sora's heart is pure and reflects his friends, Xehanort does not have any (don't say the O. XIII) and still has a strong heart. Riku has a strong heart because of his friends and because he had to learn to be independent (withstanding Ansem) and would risk everything for his friends (become dark for Kairi, become Ansem for Sora, become a Dream Eater for Sora), et cetera. Strength is not just like "energy" in Kingdom Hearts, but more like "how does this energy raise?", there are many factors how to get strong and that was what I was talking about. The will cannot be the only thing to define the heart because not everyone in the story has a super-strong will but a strong heart while the hearts are strong because of reasons xy - that does not mean that the will is not connected to the heart at all, of course.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Summoner of Leviathan
Actually, wasn't the Wikipedia article but the KH Wiki which is fan-updated and I recognized that. Also, Nomura is inconsistent, I get that to. It was more of a refresher since it has been a while since I last touched the older KH games.
I think saying that strength is qualitative, not quantitative, exactly alludes to what you said. As is the strength of the heart cannot be measured like distance or height. Just like if one ask what kind of person I am, it would be a qualitative analysis not quantitative (most likely anyways). Also, I spoke in terms of correlation not causation. Moreover, it could be argued that all of such factors that you mentioned could be considered, or even productive of, a strong will. You can easily say that Sora has a strong will because of his friends and desire to help them, Xehanort will is strong because he wants to rule Kingdom Hearts, etc...I never said that their reasons for having a strong heart were the same, just that they all had strong wills. What makes a will strong is equally different from person to person. That just leads us back in circles and hasn't really solved much. However, I think that speaking of strong hearts in terms of will for us is more productive for us (Western audience) since it is easier to speak of people of different "moral agency" (e.g. the bad guys and the good guys) in terms of will than of heart. Saying that the antagonist also has a strong heart is a bit jarring, than saying he has a strong will.
Everything that is a "Wiki" is the same for me. All of it can be "updated" by everyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Summoner of Leviathan
Possibly yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Summoner of Leviathan
The problem is that willpower is its own kind of "spiritual energy". It all works together, right, but I cannot say it is the same. If I equate will and heart, especially in Kingdom Hearts many things get messed up, even if Ansem still has Xehanort's will and consciousness while he is his darkened heart. Correlation is right and fitting as long as you don't go too far making it all the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Summoner of Leviathan
Especially in Kingdom Hearts I would say "strong heart is legit". Heart is such an important word and a will itself is pretty much the most important thing a person has. in Kingdom Hearts it seems a bit different, yes, especially because all of it is very similiar but to make a good example: Xehanort is known to have a very powerful heart - Sephiroth is known to have an indestructable and incontrollable (except himself) will, the most powerful of all. I would never use those terms too equal because "heart" is also very often used for "soul" and it is also, especially for Kingdom Hearts, used for "the essence which contains the emotions as well". I always equate soul, consciousness and will in their meaning with the essence so it would be okay to do this with the heart as well but when it comes to comparing will and heart there are differences like the will which is never used as "container of emotions". Even more, normally it is what is inside the heart and mind what makes your will stronger. It can be from both sides, yes, but I always notice how much more (and more important) comes from the one direction, so what makes your will stronger (in life, not Kingdom Hearts). Your heart is pretty much growing automatically and does not necessarily need actions which are a consequence of your will, but the will really getting stronger always requires more especially because the will getting stronger is not just about "I am strong for the ones I love" but often requires a certain strength of the will itself in the first place because you need to say to yourself "stop doing this crap and get your ass up". I get philosophical so let's stop. If I can tell you something, I can also see this "strong heart -> strong will" in Kingdom Hearts better than "strong will -> strong heart". Like in real life.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Summoner of Leviathan
And I never claim otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by SephirothEverything that is a "Wiki" is the same for me. All of it can be "updated" by everyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Summoner of Leviathan
I never equated the two, I talked in terms of correlation. Even then not between will and heart but will and strength of heart. Moreover, correlation simply means that there is an affective relation between the two wherein one increases as the other.Quote:
The problem is that willpower is its own kind of "spiritual energy". It all works together, right, but I cannot say it is the same. If I equate will and heart, especially in Kingdom Hearts many things get messed up, even if Ansem still has Xehanort's will and consciousness while he is his darkened heart. Correlation is right and fitting as long as you don't go too far making it all the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Summoner of Leviathan
My point is that KH is the exception and that to talk about antagonists, in general, as strong-hearted is rather jarring thus why it is easier to talk in terms of having a strong will than a strong heart. It would be weird, though plausible, to say that Sephiroth (the villain not you) was strong-hearted even if evil but it'd would be an odd way to say it, even if it makes sense in the given universe. Also, unless Nomura retconned this, either KHI or KHII makes it clear that the heart and the soul are two separate things. The KH mythos divides living things into three parts: heart, body, and soul. But like I said, Nomura isn't known for consistency in KH. Rather he will answer one question with ten more. :/ As far as KH has demonstrated, the heart is the seat of emotions and memories. Anything else is debatable and speculation. Consciousness would not fit adequately with the heart anyways, since both low level Heartless and Nobodies display levels of consciousness. While you could argue that since the Heartless are born/steal hearts that they get their consciousness through that (much like how Sora, through the player, was at some level conscious and able to navigate Hollow Bastion). It still doesn't explain why Dusks express consciousness. While it is true that some Nobodies retain a piece of their former heart or able to develop hearts over time, that is only symptomatic of the humanoid-Nobodies (e.g. Org. XIII). Thus it is unlikely that Dusks would have any form of a heart, even a proto-heart. Yet, they show a level of an awareness of their environment that extends beyond merely being puppets/automaton of more powerful Nobodies (who do have some form of sovereignty over them). Thus they expression consciousness without having a heart. It should be noted that by consciousness, I am talking in the basic sense of it--without referring to any particular philosophical definition of it--regarding bodily senses, perception, and most basic forms of knowledge/knowing. If you meant self-consciousness, then that is a different kettle of fish, though I would say that the Dusks show at least some low forms of self-consciousness and self-awareness, definitely not on par with say Org. XIII members but a minimal form.Quote:
Especially in Kingdom Hearts I would say "strong heart is legit". Heart is such an important word and a will itself is pretty much the most important thing a person has. in Kingdom Hearts it seems a bit different, yes, especially because all of it is very similiar but to make a good example: Xehanort is known to have a very powerful heart - Sephiroth is known to have an indestructable and incontrollable (except himself) will, the most powerful of all. I would never use those terms too equal because "heart" is also very often used for "soul" and it is also, especially for Kingdom Hearts, used for "the essence which contains the emotions as well". I always equate soul, consciousness and will in their meaning with the essence so it would be okay to do this with the heart as well but when it comes to comparing will and heart there are differences like the will which is never used as "container of emotions". Even more, normally it is what is inside the heart and mind what makes your will stronger. It can be from both sides, yes, but I always notice how much more (and more important) comes from the one direction, so what makes your will stronger (in life, not Kingdom Hearts). Your heart is pretty much growing automatically and does not necessarily need actions which are a consequence of your will, but the will really getting stronger always requires more especially because the will getting stronger is not just about "I am strong for the ones I love" but often requires a certain strength of the will itself in the first place because you need to say to yourself "stop doing this crap and get your ass up". I get philosophical so let's stop. If I can tell you something, I can also see this "strong heart -> strong will" in Kingdom Hearts better than "strong will -> strong heart". Like in real life.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Summoner of Leviathan
EDIT: It is also strongly hinted (I'm understating here) at that all Nobodies are composed of the body and soul of the person who lost their heart. So while not all Nobodies retain a piece of a heart, all do retain the soul and body. Further proving that the heart is not the soul. It would seem that the heart is typically the animator of the body, yet in the case of the Nobodies, it is the soul. Which also puts consciousness somewhere between the two. The corporeality of Heartless is merely the manifestation of the darkness in the heart. Since oddly enough darkness itself can take form in KH...
And I think about things way too much. :/
I know what correlation means. That is why I said, it is easy to make the mistake and equate. And depending on the word it is not even a mistake. You will see what I mean.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Summoner of Leviathan
Actually it is neither hinted, nor proven. Kingdom Hearts has a typical semantic problem which is not solved by what the story shows and it will never be solved because of vague definitions and subjectivity, since the traits we think of are magically a part of another word we use while people think of a completely other word than you when they hear of this trait, which is the reason why these spiritual terms are all very equal. The essence of the person, so the person itself is most of the time called "soul" or "consciousness" (ego, self, et cetera) but people also use words like mind, will and heart synonymously as you will see (and I am sure you actually know). We will never solve this because you cannot seperate these things, especially when it comes to "the spritual essence which is the person itself". Something similiar is only said in 3D. In Kingdom Hearts II the words are "the empty vessel begins a new life without its heart and forms a new personality". And 3D does not even really speak of the soul but of the mind. And mind and soul are also not always used as the same words. That is the real problem. Many people use mind, soul and heart with the same meaning. Many don't. And in the end no one knows what the one who was talking has meant. Also, the real soul being a part of the Nobody cannot be possible because the soul is always meant to be "the person", also like its "ego" and "consciousness". The person which lifes and which can still live when it has another body. Kingdom Hearts clearly shows that Ansem and Mini-Shadow-Sora are "the person", so it is used even in Kingdom Hearts very synonymously to the soul. People even like to use "mind" (which is also used synonymously with "will") and "soul" with different meanings, which is by the way the reason why I tell you this. The explanation here was about a Nobody containing the mind as said in 3D. I tell you, some mistakes were made. Plus, there is still the thing of both beings getting parts of the same thing like memories so even the "one gets that so the other one doesn't" is not necessarily true. We know even a bit of the heart is left so if heart is used synonymously to soul, then yes, I can say, a Nobody really has something of the soul but only a bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Summoner of Leviathan
Emotions, yes. Like you also say "you are heartless" in real life to a person without empathy.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Summoner of Leviathan
Memories can't really be.
If that would be possible Xemnas would not remember his past and Nobodies would not get their strength through their memories. Sure, there still is a little piece of heart left, they never are lost for good and the rest is re-created, but they cannot have memories from their original life then. Ansem and Xemnas both have memories of their original life and Sora has his memories while Roxas has some problems remembering but also the memories. So memories are something both get.
A Nobody gets his own consciousness as Yen Sid also says he creates his own new personality. That is simple. Nobodies create a personality, a consciousness, a heart replacement, they create everything they need. So it actually does fit because I am talking about the original consciousness, the ego, et cetera, where the person can also be aware "I am me". Xemnas cannot be aware of being Xehanort, because he is not. He does not have his consciousness and ego (also soul, which I explain you soon to be as important and teh main part of a being), which is the most important thing but has created a new consciousness and personality. He only has memories of an old life as Xehanort. But the truth is, the "Xehanort" still lives. Just not inside of him. If Xemnas would be Xehanort he would fully act as Xehanort. If he would be Xehanort, he and Ansem would be the same person. But he is not. Just like Sora says to Roxas "You are you" and that is right. Of course they are all part of each other. But once there is more than one consciousness there is more than one person. And the new personality thing is self-explanatory then.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Summoner of Leviathan
The consciousness definitely goes to the Heartless. For one simple reason: The consciousness is your ego. If both bodies would share one consciousness they would be the same person, meaning even though there are two seperated bodies there is only one person to control both. Final Fantasy VII and VIII are perfect examples. Sephiroth and Ultimecia can also project their consciousness in more bodies. This is why a clone will never be you. If a clone would have your consciousness there would not be a "you and him"; but only a "you" and you would be able to control both bodies. Another example would be infinite versions of your person living in their own time period. You are infinite versions of one person, but not person alone, just existences connected through time. Why? Not because of infinite bodies, no. But because all those version have a seperated consciousness. If you would live in all those times with one consciousness "you" would actually be them (which means "them" does not even need to be used). That is also what i like about 3D by the way. Xehanort even uses the words "other versions" when he is talking about time travelling. It is only an example, sinc it works. We do not really need to talk about time travelling because if that works is not known anyway. And that, so the consciousness, the Self, is also equated with the soul, since the soul is very often also said to be the person itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Summoner of Leviathan
Exactly that is what I was talking about. That is the most accurate definition. But many people use them all for one definition and others don't. And the heart in Kingdom Hearts definitely has a "soul position" because it has treats you normally give the soul and its relevance is as big as the soul's here because it is always used as the "essence" in Kingdom Hearts.
As said, I do have all teh Kingdom Hearts information indeed. I know what is written. But I also am a very logical person and I have an expertise when it comes to psychology. Even if I would not many things are axiomatic, self-explanatory or obvious. You must admit, many terms and their meanings in Kingdom Hearts are mixed with other terms and their meanings. And believe me, that is not always meant to be.
I am talking about the ego, the person itself. The freudian ego which deals with reality and knows "I am me". That is the consciousness because the person itself lives this way and the reason why a person itself is actually dead if it never ever gets back its consciousness, no matter if the body lives. Consciousness is not used exactly as "ego", but is the closest similiar word to use and that is why I am talking about all the "things get mixed up", thing. In certain stories a person is resurrected because the soul is transferred. Meaning, also the original consciousness must be transferred or the person is not "the" person but just a new person with the soul, pretty much a reincarnation. I also equate soul and consciousness but to be really specific, the real person itself, the "Self", like Xemnas even says at least needs its consciousness. Of course we can also debate about how useful that is in case the person does not get back any memories, et cetera, but it still is the person it always was.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Summoner of Leviathan
I hope you understand at least a bit of what I told you. Not because you can't but because it is very confusing. You can really see here that there is a semantical problem since the general consensus is that there is no one. Many people use too many words synonymously but in different occassions they don't. You can believe me, I am very aware of the definitions of both Kingdom Hearts and our words. And as said many things even are axiomatic, so logical that the unequivocal and indisputable logic tells you "okay, it is this way and other than that is not possible". I love to get philosophical and I love to talk about Kingdom Hearts but a) many things in Kingdom Hearts are not defined well enough and b) many meanings are mixed in the story like people do in real life. So we can continue writing, I am sure it is funny and interesting for both of us. But we will never come to a solution simply because of a) and b). And except some mistakes which definitely exist most things in Kingdom Hearts, even concerning this, are okay and fit but are only misunderstood.
By the way - in case you really want to continue this, don't you want to write me a PM? We should delete it all then so people can actually write here about what the thread actually was for. I am sure we waste our time anyway because Kingdom Hearts will stay like this and why should a problem that exists in life be solved in Kingdom Hearts. Send me a PM, we can, in case you want, exchange some final words. I guess you can also see two people cannot solve a problem of subjectivity.