The Mythology of Science, life and christmas road tolls

Modern Science has its share of mythology. Generally Scientists disdain philosophy (while forgetting that science is a branch of philosophy) and argue mythology is irrational. This is a trend as people move from their innate human faculties toward an externally self evident universe.

Science has introduced relativism into every form of human knowledge, and this certainly has limitations: Only that the speed of light is not constant. Keynesian economics (based on relative demand) creates economic paradox (stagflation). Abstract art is ludicrous. And atonal music is relative to the listener.

As we scientists, however, love to declare: it wasn't in the calculations.

This is about as self-defeating as the astrologer who merely chances prophecy.

Let us get over our disposition of real and myth and hold respect and value for all human knowledge.

Myths unfold in every circumstance of human life. From the enrage Medea who kills her own children at the cost of her husbands infidelity, to the tormented saviour, who at the very least represents our abysmal physical suffering by daytime, and our rejuvenation found in the comfort of dream-time at night.

Mammals are, after all, kings of the night and the promethian gift ensured that humans would seize and conquer both day and night. And this is a myth for both the mind of day and night.

But as we have our livers shredded by the dawning of sun: dealing with work, the injured, the dying and starving; equally our spirits are invigorated by the infinite world of night and mind.

Is space mind? Indeed. It cannot be measured by physics, it is merely a construction of our thinking - while planets, energy and dark matter are all measurable to some extent. The infinite plane rests in the realm of philosophy.

If you don't believe in astrology, take a look at this:

Charles Martin Hall (December 6, 1863–December 27, 1914) was an American inventor and engineer. He is best known for his discovery in 1886 of an inexpensive method for producing aluminium.

The French scientist Paul (Louis-Toussaint) Héroult (April 10, 1863–May 9, 1914) was the inventor of the aluminium electrolysis, also in 1886, and of the electric steel furnace.

Their inextricably parallel lives defined an era of industrial chemistry. Aluminium was the first metal to gain widespread use since the prehistoric discovery of iron. Given that both men worked independently, separated by the Atlantic divide, deriving their numerological and metaphysical circumstance invariably leads our imagination back to a time when the gift of fire was bestowed by Prometheus.


This is nothing but an example of the metaphysical realm. Yes, Humans do have a science for analysing this type of information, but it is more akin to the mind than the body. It is not a waste of time. It produces meaning to our lives and our place in the universe. We are not here to abuse our existence with technology and pillage the earth with consumerism. Myths extend our sciences and knowledge base by affecting the core (reptilian brain). When we hear a myth it does not change or conscious mind, but moves the body and challenges our spirit. How many inventions are due to luck? There is nothing logical about it. The scientist is at times more like a magician. His language has merely changed from verse, then to prose and today mathematics. But, the inventing is still done in verse.

I believe we need to be more aware of our arrogant conscious mind. It seeks to calculate and devise means to an end, rather than seeking harmony.

The best examples are the weather, markets and politics. Try using your conscious mind to predict either and you will most likely fail. Those who go with the moment succeed.


I hope that we can enjoy the adventure of myth and explore life beyond gravity, floods, tax returns and examining George Bush's terms of reference.

When was the last time warriors wept for the fallen enemy? Why is the hero’s place higher than the gods? Heroism places a floor for all those who would like to do good but cannot: That is for a cop to do, I will walk on by and ignore the hapless victim; that is for a fireman to extinguish … Only the good die young.

Perhaps, if our offerings were sacred, we might learn to enjoy rather than over-indulge. When people are lying in hospital do they ever wish that they had watched more television?

Escape the manacles of polyphemus. The T.V. enslaves us in our dark caves as did the one eyed Cyclops. It too has one eye, and has usurped parents, religion and teachers. The T.V. has taken out youth and condemned them troglodytes. Or, are we too busy riding our saurons, fuelled by the earthen-blood of dinosaurs, screeching when the breaks are hastily applied; and, driving everyone to insanity and death (see road rage)

Merry Christmas, but I fear the road toll. Why do we do it to ourselves?


Thank you for reading.

[qq]If you don't believe in astrology, take a look at this:[/qq]
I looked and I still don't believe in astrology. It's just coincidence.

[qq]The best examples are the weather, markets and politics. Try using your conscious mind to predict either and you will most likely fail. Those who go with the moment succeed.[/qq]
Who would you trust to warn you a hurricane was coming: a meteorologist with weather satellites and radar and planes full of instruments, or some guy "going with the moment"? I think I'll stick with the scientist personally.

The rest of your post made very little sense as well.

Wow. Somebody actually understood what he said

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Originally Posted by Besimudo

Merry Christmas, but I fear the road toll. Why do we do it to ourselves?

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http://www.rackandshelf.com/images/Tollbooth.jpg

Whhhhhhhhyyyyyyyyyy??????? :weep:

It is too bad that the people of the south were not warned about the hurricanes.

Also, you cannot ignore the fact that Aluminium was a significant change in industrial chemistry. Both scientists were born in the same year, discovered the same process in the same year, and, also died in the same year.

Strange?

Your Baconian rationalism comes from Elizabethan times. A time when humans thought the Cartesian method could reveal all. Plain. It cannot. The world is not rational.

Besides, modern society likes technology and material reality. How can society tax the mind? Oh, the psychologists are already trying that. And when we think that we understand the mind scientifically, that will also become the realm of finance and administration.

Already, the biologists have control of humankind’s embryos: to improve our lives? No, to make a profit!

If you do not believe in Astrology, well I don't believe in modern medicine when it acts as a vector for pathogens and inadvertently kills.

No, no, that was not possible ... well guess what tax payer funded medical man ... IT WAS!


My position is this. It is OK to deny our rich cultural heritage, and extol the benefits of the modern world, all the while covering up the ills of technology.




As for hurricanes ... they must have been phenomenal for the English settlers, coming from a physically ordered world in England, and then experiencing the powers of new gods. What ever happened to gravity ... Well, well that works when we do these calculations ..... ;)



At the end of the day, we need to challenge ideas; otherwise we cement our feet in reality … whatever that is.

[qq=Besimudo]It is too bad that the people of the south were not warned about the hurricanes.[/qq]
Are you referring to Katrina? They were warned. There was poor planning and poor reaction, but the fact that they had any warning at all is thanks to science. Would a guy "going with the moment" have done better? This is absurd to the point that I can hardly discuss it seriously.

[qq]Also, you cannot ignore the fact that Aluminium was a significant change in industrial chemistry. Both scientists were born in the same year, discovered the same process in the same year, and, also died in the same year.

Strange?[/qq]
Strange as in coincidence, sure. But it doesn't mean anything. Human beings are good at finding patterns even when no underlying cause exists. It's a survival trait. Not every pattern is an indication of something significant.

To claim that some otherworldly force had something to do with the inventions of these people takes credit away from two resourceful and intelligent people who probably deserve it.

[qq]Already, the biologists have control of humankind’s embryos: to improve our lives? No, to make a profit! [/qq]
Surely the life of a person who can't otherwise conceive a child is improved when science enables it. Surely the child itself who would otherwise never have been born would be grateful. If you think life is not improved by science, feel free to live as our ancestors did. I don't think you'll have time for posting in this thread though, you'll be too busy trying not to starve to death, and probably dead before you're 30. Unless you believe astrology can provide you with a computer.

[qq]If you do not believe in Astrology, well I don't believe in modern medicine when it acts as a vector for pathogens and inadvertently kills.[/qq]
You're free not to believe in medicine. I wouldn't place bets on your outliving someone who does. You can deny reality all you want, but reality has a way of being real whether you care about it or not.

I don't believe in astrology because it's bunk. It's wishful thinking.

[qq]At the end of the day, we need to challenge ideas; otherwise we cement our feet in reality … whatever that is.[/qq]
Sure, challenge ideas. Some ideas are more worth challenging than others. Challenge for the sake of challenge is pointless and ridiculous. Do you challenge that the sun will rise tomorrow? I would not want to live life constantly bewildered and unable to understand anything around me, and thankfully I don't have to. There comes a point where denying reality crosses the line into insanity.

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Originally Posted by Dr Unne

...but reality has a way of being real whether you care about it or not.

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I like that! :D

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Originally Posted by Besimudo

Only that the speed of light is not constant.

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it is constant in a vacuum

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Originally Posted by Besimuudo

Myths unfold in every circumstance of human life. From the enrage Medea who kills her own children

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only in Euripedes version i believe

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Besimudo

If you don't believe in astrology, take a look at this:

Charles Martin Hall (December 6, 1863–December 27, 1914) was an American inventor and engineer. He is best known for his discovery in 1886 of an inexpensive method for producing aluminium.

The French scientist Paul (Louis-Toussaint) Héroult (April 10, 1863–May 9, 1914) was the inventor of the aluminium electrolysis, also in 1886, and of the electric steel furnace.

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As inventors work is based on previous advances it is plausible that two people would work on similar ideas at the same time independently, eg Darwin and Wallace

"it is constant in a vacuum"

Indeed, but the public perception of science embraces all reality, and hence, it has become quasi-religious. Light, per se, does not hold constant, relativism does have limits. Much like stimulating demand in an economy via the AD curve. Sure it works but it has its limits.

"only in Euripedes version i believe"

You are very erudite in your understanding. Yes, yes it demonstrated that even rationally sound people were capable of vengeance. Jason's mockery is not to be taken lightly at all.

A police officer once attended a crime scene where the enraged wife had placed her child in a frying pan due to her husbands infidelity .... these myths are very dark, and very true.

"As inventors work is based on previous advances it is plausible that two people would work on similar ideas at the same time independently, eg Darwin and Wallace"

Yep, Darwin and Wallace were children of Malthusianism. A theory of his design is expected. The Greeks suggested that Humans evolved from fish. And Democritus set the scene for the atom. Yes, yes ... how we scientists forget the philosophers - for their insights provide the means of our labour. Mathematics, another child of philosophy has little regard for its parent. Yet we grab onto the ideas of writers and philosophers everyday without being cognizant i.e. the big-bang was devloped not by a scientist but a writer.


"Strange as in coincidence, sure. But it doesn't mean anything. Human beings are good at finding patterns even when no underlying cause exists. It's a survival trait. Not every pattern is an indication of something significant.

To claim that some otherworldly force had something to do with the inventions of these people takes credit away from two resourceful and intelligent people who probably deserve it."


Never said that. Just that myth was a mode of description. it is our core. myths appear everywhere.

Somebody denying myth is about as good as an evangelist denying natural evolution. We have polarized our knowledge bases.

Scientist: Logical, reproducible, real

Priest: irrational, fictional, myth

Yet, two striking contradictions are ever present: Scientist, inspired inventor and Priest, leader of humanity.

Humanity is real, inspiration is not ... it comes from the mind.

"Surely the life of a person who can't otherwise conceive a child is improved when science enables it. Surely the child itself who would otherwise never have been born would be grateful. If you think life is not improved by science, feel free to live as our ancestors did. I don't think you'll have time for posting in this thread though, you'll be too busy trying not to starve to death, and probably dead before you're 30. Unless you believe astrology can provide you with a computer."

Big assumptions here ... people lived into their 80's in the past. In fact Jeanne Clement smoked and contradicted medicine to live until 122. Your Gaussian rhetoric tries to fit the bell curve on everything. Plain and simple.

In the past we might have been out on adventure, rather than wasting precious fossil fuels on internet chat.

And, astrology is a computer. Your knowledge of Megalithic achievement is lacking. Also see the Aztec predictions of downfall.



"You're free not to believe in medicine. I wouldn't place bets on your outliving someone who does. You can deny reality all you want, but reality has a way of being real whether you care about it or not.

I don't believe in astrology because it's bunk. It's wishful thinking."


Indeed I am. Most of our drugs are hijacked from native people. 90% of the world still relies on herbal medicine ... it is only the protestant countries that typically hack and slash with a few catholic nations. Besides, the Chinese have achieved the longest life span without modern medicine and it ain’t much worse than in the west.


Anyhow, What about CANCER OOPS. That just collapsed your modern hypothesis.



Please post some more, but not: people died younger then and they didn't know about cancer. Well, here’s the news .... the oldest living people aren't in the west so there.

Also, lifespans were affected by industralism and science read Simon Kuznets or look up Phossy Jaw !!!! (a condition from working in the match stick industry)




Cheers.

Okay, what on earth are you on about?

You're talking about aluminum, astrology, TV, hurricanes, reality, the speed of light, Darwin, medicine, computers, Protestants hackin' and slashin', Catholics not so much, science, cancer, and road tolls.

Seriously, does this thread even have a point?

He's saying we should trust in science and myth equally. Even though they contradict one another at every turn, and even though myths are bunk.

[qq=Besimudo]Never said that. Just that myth was a mode of description. it is our core. myths appear everywhere. [/qq]

A method of description which gets you nothing. Any more than spraying bullets at a bullseye, drawing a circle around 3 that happen to be close together, and forming a religion out of it gets you anything.

[qq]Somebody denying myth is about as good as an evangelist denying natural evolution. We have polarized our knowledge bases.

Scientist: Logical, reproducible, real

Priest: irrational, fictional, myth

Yet, two striking contradictions are ever present: Scientist, inspired inventor and Priest, leader of humanity.

Humanity is real, inspiration is not ... it comes from the mind. [/qq]

I have no idea what this means. Define "humanity" for starters.

[qq]Big assumptions here ... people lived into their 80's in the past. In fact Jeanne Clement smoked and contradicted medicine to live until 122. Your Gaussian rhetoric tries to fit the bell curve on everything. Plain and simple.[/qq]

I believe I can show that the average human lifespan has been increasing steadily over time, in accordance with medical advances. However you seem not to believe in statistics, so it may be fruitless.

Are you claiming that a single anecdotal case of a person living to 122 years invalidates all of medical science? That is patently absurd. Anecdotal evidence is next to worthless. There are often exceptions to every pattern, but they do not invalidate the millions of counter-examples.

[qq]And, astrology is a computer. Your knowledge of Megalithic achievement is lacking. Also see the Aztec predictions of downfall. [/qq]

I would ask you to enlighten me, but that would imply that I consider that what you're saying has even the slightest chance of being true. Unless you are using "computer" in a metaphorical sense. I know what megaliths were used for in terms of playing with seasonal patterns and star patterns etc. It is so rudimentary compared to a real computer that the analogy is not feasible.

Please also note that there has been no downfall that I am aware of, so any predictions of such are as yet wrong. Unless they predicted their own downfall.

[qq]Indeed I am. Most of our drugs are hijacked from native people.[/qq]

I don't know much about biological science, but I find this to be dubious to say the least.

[qq]Anyhow, What about CANCER OOPS. That just collapsed your modern hypothesis. [/qq]

Again, are you claiming that a single uncured disease invalidates all of medical science? This is not nearly a valid argument. How about the thousands of diseases which we can cure now that we never could before?

And we do have methods of treating and even curing certain types of cancers. Can herbs and astrology do better? To answer myself, no, they can't.

[qq=Odaisé Gaelach]Seriously, does this thread even have a point?[/qq]

The promotion of mysticism, apparently. It doesn't have a point insofar as mysticism is a bunch of nonsense, almost by definition. Honestly I think responding to this seriously may be giving it more credit than it deserves. But I hate to see this kind of thing spread around unchallenged.

Good, Good.

"He's saying we should trust in science and myth equally. Even though they contradict one another at every turn, and even though myths are bunk."

Yep. We had myths to explain the movement of the sun. They are obviously not cosmologically true. However, when a human looks at something we do so in a human reality. Hence, it is symbolic to attach a daimon to this observation. Science is also based on observation, only it makes utility of the cerebral cortex. Hence, scientific truths have less impact than mythical ones. My dilemma is when people attach mythical proportions to science. They deliberately attach emotions to a practice that should not inspire these feelings ... hence, evolution is tricky, like heliocentricity because it removes the diamon from our awareness. This is when we start to abuse our nature because it clearly is not human ... hence void of ethics.

When the last person dies, the universe will cease to exist. This is much like the reality of the falling tree in an unheard forest. Nothing to hear it, therefore their is no noise. The fact that hertz described waves is superficial to the HUMAN EXPERIENCE.

We are dealing with the reptilian brain. Do you believe in God? It makes us feel at odds because or minds were taught myth at childhood. These physiological and tonal differences are the realm of myth.

I asked an atheist is God real? He answered no. That is fine because God is not real. However, on the question of belief, his voice changed, his body squirmed and the reaction as nayooo. Humans have a part of their brain that believes in an ordered universe. It helped us out of the cave, it guides us in court, it even devloped the atomic theory. God is simply a human construct that enables this.


My argument is that we need to reflect on it once in a while, if not, more often. Sure, its not logical, it is not real, but these stories are fascinating. Moreso than the excitation state of a quark or the gluons that induce attraction.


"I don't know much about biological science, but I find this to be dubious to say the least."

Yep. I work at the School of Pharm and applied science ... this is afct we don't want you to know. But ... 75% of all drugs developed come directly from precursor molecules derived from plants. Scientists still go into the forest thieving off natives in hope of a panacea. lol

Benzodiazepines were discovered serendipitously, much like the popular penicillin - gee it's the last time I clean my glassware!

note: we have even removed the magical (luck, inspired) realm from science to make it more business-like.

"The promotion of mysticism, apparently. It doesn't have a point insofar as mysticism is a bunch of nonsense, almost by definition. Honestly I think responding to this seriously may be giving it more credit than it deserves. But I hate to see this kind of thing spread around unchallenged."

Perhaps for a rationalist, but this is much like extolling the chair, whilst denying the floor of a house. You accept the techniques and definitions of your science, but fail to converge the traditions of past. Much like walking the plank of a pirate ship. You might stumble upon new land, but chances are you will end up in the ocean.

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Originally Posted by Besimudo

Thank you for reading.

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Dun mention it. :bigsmile:

As for the hurricane comment about the warnings and such.

If you live in ANYWHERE ON A COASTAL LINE, You're warning is when a tropical depression is formed. I lived on the Mexican/Texas coastline for 7 or 8 years and we got hit by many a hurricane that shifted against the prediction, but none of us were surprised. Hurricanes are like tornado, you can't stop where they turn but common sense is, if your in any kind of potential path AKA coastline, you best just get out of the way.

Many people that stayed in Lousiana actually chose to stay there as long as they possibly could, hence the mass chaos right before the literal storm hit. It's much like how the captain wants to go down with the ship, through hell and high water they were staying until the end.
Saddly half of them bailed, caused the roads to clog up and caused mass traffic jams in almost every major city around lousianna. It wasn't a meterological warning they needed, it was a chronological one. They realized they had to go after it was too late.

Just because a hurricane doesn't normally hit that hard in that area doesn't mean it won't. Always be on cover. [/HURRICANEWARNINGRANT]

Oh and..

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Big assumptions here ... people lived into their 80's in the past. In fact Jeanne Clement smoked and contradicted medicine to live until 122. Your Gaussian rhetoric tries to fit the bell curve on everything. Plain and simple.

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Originally Posted by Dr Unne

I believe I can show that the average human lifespan has been increasing steadily over time, in accordance with medical advances. However you seem not to believe in statistics, so it may be fruitless.

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Unne's right. I actually had an elderly lady come into Macy's one day and told me that she never imagined she would live to be 80 because very people did back when she was a child. Even with out medication, some people, like that 122 year old person for example, just have a better immune system, which would not be affected by smoking or medication-neglection.