Will Final Fantasy XV's Cid be a Lady?

To be fair I don't think the business side of it came into it anywhere. Somebody came up with an idea to make a character called Cidney. Whoever did either gave a brief to the character designer or let them do what they liked. One of those decided how to dress her, and when her design was presented to the rest of the team nobody objected (or, if they did, they were shot down). Most likely they aren't attempting to 'get more sales using sexy ladies,' someone creative just made an instinctive decision without really thinking about it, and here we are.

It's a super easy thing to do. On the last game I worked on, the player could choose from a list of audio names that they would be referred to by the game. When I joined the project there weren't any female names. There was no malice in there, just ignorance - it was a team of 95% dudes making a game they just assumed would only be played by other dudes. And I'm sure if we looked at the sales demographics that would end up being the case. Still, we got the female names included in the end. It didn't harm the game in any way. If even one woman played it and got to use her name, I think it was a worthwhile effort.

But if nobody along the pipeline gives it the thought... that's how this happens so often.

The project director (name escapes me) is likely in total apocalyptic crunch mode right now. I wouldn't advise memo'ing him on the subject. :) This game has been in the works for 8 years already, after all.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

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Originally Posted by Shlup

No one's saying she has to be ugly, just that her outfit is stupid.

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To be fair, I agree with this much. I don't mind it being stupid because I'm a typical guy who has no issue looking at boobs. On the flipside, I don't mind if girls want to sexualise men, either. And I say this despite considering myself rather unattractive in appearance. I just don't see a problem with sexualising in general so long as it's being done in a fictional world, and it's being done to both genders. I imagine Cidney is dressed to titilate and I'm okay with that.

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I appreciate that you can acknowledge the outfit is stupid, but to say that's okay with you because you "don't mind" shows me that you are choosing to ignore all the negative impacts this kind of gender inequality and over sexualization of females has on society. The videos I posted list quite a few, and I've mentioned several times that we are so used to seeing women as sexual objects that both men and women view men as whole people and women as the sum of their parts. I mean, you're entitled to not mind something that seems pretty smurfed up if you want... It's pretty likely you'll realize these issues matter when you have a daughter. And, no, that doesn't mean you have to be a huge advocate for social change, but navigating gender stereotypes as a parent is really hard, and being vocal does help. I do not want my daughter to think she must be pretty to be of value, which is a very well documented issue with women in our society, far more than with men.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

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Because you want to be one of "those people" who says "Hey, it's not my responsibility to care," even though caring costs you very little. Like, literally all I'm doing is saying is "that outfit is stupid" but that's just too much effort for Daniel!

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To be fair, I joined the conversation long after it was simply "This outfit is stupid." :shobon:

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Okay, fine, literally all I require of you is to say "This outfit is stupid and that's a bad thing."

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

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Originally Posted by Shlup

Hell, the only reason we're even having this conversation is because, as soon as one person made a small comment criticizing the outfit, people had to come in to be sure everyone understood that sexual objectification is totally no big deal. I don't understand the motivation. Is the idea that women should be displayed for your sexual pleasure maybe a little less frequently threatening somehow? I don't think that's the case but it's all I can think of.

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It's not the case, I'm just saying that I don't think it's automatically a problem the first moment we see a girl who has her rack on display. I mean, if you live in a hot climate, this kind of thing happens. It happened in NZ all the time, I saw it in America while I was there, Menorca had it in droves, hell, the girls in Sweden and even Scotland do it sometimes. This is a Thing That Happens. Sure, they picked the most ridiculous character to do it with, but then, this is Square Enix and that's par for the course - girls and guys alike. If a guy has a sexy look with his shirt open to show off his chest and abs, dressed in about as sexy clothes as you can dress a guy in, nobody blinks. Girls - because of historic reasons - jump onto the girl with the rack out. I get that, but I do think that SE are actually pretty fair. Which brings us to...!

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It's not that her rack is on display. I display my rack. My nipples have seen sunshine in the Happiest Place on Earth many times. To reiterate: The first female Cid is the first sexy Cid. And not just because her boobs. They're just just uncovered, they're pushed up and out and on display. And her belly is out. And her buttcheeks are peekin'. And she's wearing thigh-high smurf me boots. And she's supposed to be... a mechanic?? I mean, if she were doing her work and then took off her coveralls to reveal some sexy casual clothes, I would not be nearly as irritated.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

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Originally Posted by Shlup

Attractive males: ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 29
Unattractive males: |||||||||||||||| 16
Attractive females: ||||||||||||||||||||||||| 25
Unattractive females: ||| 3

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Three? Really? You're not even counting Penelo? >_>; And who are all these unattractive males!? I'd like to see the breakdown of this list someday. :p I might even go through the list myself and state who I think is attractive and who I think is unattractive. In the end, personal perspective makes a big difference. I could even include sexy, but it's hard for me to define sexy in a man without assistance. :S I can only go by the "This is what girls find sexy... right?" kind of method if I'm doing it on my own. Basch wins, by the way. ;) But seriously, more than anything the note of too few elderly ladies raised my eyebrow. I never really think of the guys as that elderly but I guess there are a few. Were they mostly in the older games? I wish they'd bring in more elderly characters (not geriatric, but you get the idea) in modern FF's.

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Obviously what each individual person finds "attractive" is subjective, but if they were adult, physically fit, and not too non-human-like I considered them "attractive." I wanted to err on your side so I included characters whose face you don't really see (Shadow) and middle aged men (Auron, Sazh and... I forget his name) as attractive. Penelo is attractive; don't be a dumbass. Just because you don't like her hair and outfit doesn't make her an unattractive person. Make the list yourself if you want; it didn't take me very long. You may change a couple of people, but there is just no possibility of the percentages nearing "fair and equal."

Yes, the elder playable males are in the older games. I also wouldn't consider the female characters in the older games sexually objectified, for the record, even in their more revealing outfits. Skin showing doesn't mean sexualized--I find Celes and Terra's outfits whimsical. Who's the oldest playable female character? Lulu at 22?

P.S. You owe me a "You were so right, Shlup. I'm sorry for being hella daft."

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

Like I say - I don't mind sexualising of fictional characters. I simply don't. I don't know what more to say on that. Goes for guys and girls. I do have a problem with people saying "This is what you should wear in the real world" but thankfully I never do that to anyone and I have no problem with girls in the real world wearing whatever the hell they want, and do my best to never judge them for it. ...with the possible exception of Lady Gaga. Don't wear meat. =|

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I liked the meat dress. It looked delicious.

In the interim, I encourage you to continue to consider the effects of how women are portrayed by the media, even fictional ones. I assume your children will learn to read by playing Final Fantasy. When they're playing young men and old men and cat men and beautiful young girls and beautiful young girls and beautiful young girls with giant titties and beautiful young girls and a fat guy, what message does that ingrain in them? Sexualization aside even. What message does that send about the value of men as individuals versus the value of women as individuals?

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

Anyway, to summarise the tl;dr of it all... :sleepy:

Things we seemingly don't agree on...
- That it's okay to sexualise an individual character for no other reason than to sexualise that individual character.
- That guys get sexualised about as much as they can be.
- That more old girls or "unattractive" people in general could be a very good thing for Final Fantasy.
- More body shapes within Final Fantasy would be a nice thing.
- That Final Fantasy should change to compensate for the rest of the industry, who are often considerably worse offenders.

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Wait, you don't think I thing that a wider range of character types (looks, age, bodytype) is something I agree with or it's something you don't agree with? I also don't feel Final Fantasy has a responsibility to compensate for anyone. It's everyone's responsibility to treat sexuality with respect. Excluding maybe porn; I don't have a problem with actual porn as a rule.

I definitely disagree with you on the first two though. Especially the second one. For your second point you are being very daft.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

Things I believe and am not sure if you agree on...
- That you shouldn't sexualise one gender if you're not going to sexualise the other one, too.
- That almost every guy in modern Final Fantasy has an attractive "fit/healthy" body type (ie, no fatties, although a couple of skinnies are probably in there like Hope).
- That guys get absurd outfits too in Final Fantasy.
- Sometimes the above happens for the sake of sexualisation over any relevant reasoning.

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Most people in media are fit regardless of gender, yes. The gap between how the genders are treated is still extreme though. I agree that Final Fantasy has some absurd outfits all around, though I can't think of any except maybe Gladiolus who are supposed to be actually sexy. And it's just an open shirt. No low-cut jeans or happy trail peeking out or big bulge in his pants. Many of the men are sexy, just like many of the women are sexy by nature of being attractive, but none of them are dressed in a way specifically to display their bodies for my sexual pleasure aside from maybe one open shirt. Showing skin is not, in and of itself, sexua

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

Things I'm pretty sure we agree on!
- The Cidney outfit is absurd and stupid for the job she is in.
- It does sexualise her, and that is probably the intention of the outfit.
- Video games in general sexualise females far more than they sexualise males, which is not a good thing.
- Film and media do this too.

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Yes.

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Originally Posted by Tyson

Wowzers this thread got out of control. I don't get the big deal really. She is very reminiscent of Rikku, who also dressed similarly even tho it didn't fit her job description. This is Final Fantasy for gods sake.

It's like complaining about Noctis's hair as it's unrealistic you'd want hair that long while swinging a sword around. Do we want everything to be 100% logical and PC in a JRPG? If you want that your probably better looking for a western RPG like Mass Effect.

This whole thing is very reminiscent of what just happened with the new Tekken game. The new character Lucky Chloe was announced (cleavage, pigtails, kawaii anime girl personality) and the western audience lost there trout. The game director eventually responded by saying on twitter "Hello small world. I'll make muscular & skinhead character for you"

Kind of a sharp dig at the western audience but I loved his response. Us westerners are so obsessed with making everything politically correct that we're stifling creativity. You create a character like Aerith and people complain that women shouldn't have to be seen as virginal or 'pure' So instead you create a confident female character that isn't afraid to show off her body but then you're being exploitive.....

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We've pointed this out more than once, but I'll address you specifically. You are making the argument here that "this kind of sexual treatment of women is normal," which is exactly our complaint.

I will add, however, that I really disagree with you that it's stifling creativity. Consider how easy it is to think "We want to attract an audience. People like looking at sexy ladies. Let's add sexy ladies." Think of how easy it is to think "The character needs motivation. Kidnap the girl he likes." Those things are easy. They are cliche. They are lazy. The point is to challenge the media to work beyond lazy cliches. Make dynamic characters. Make interesting stories. Relying on sexualizing women to sell their art isn't creativity--it's cheap pandering. And it's harmful. The effects of these types of things are well documented, and they're bad for both genders.

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Originally Posted by Spooniest

People seem perfectly comfortable to discard the ethnocentrism argument out of hand.

Achievement: Made forum uncomfortable!

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Honestly, I just don't care what country the game was made in. But you did remind me to add "country of origin" to my project.

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Originally Posted by Hannibal_Khan

I never said that I didn't "believe" the information. Neither did I call Ms. Heldman's credential's or credibility into question. I simply stated that the video you cited was not some kind of irrefutable scientific evidence that supports your claim the way you are presenting it to be. Sorry if you think i'm just being a stickler, or a "pedant"(you really searched your lexicon for that one, huh? lol I had to google it, but it's now my new favorite word of the day, so thank you) but, you know, Scientific Method and such(you should google this, maybe?). It's just kinda how my brain operate's.

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"Nobody likes a pedant" is a common phrase in casual debate, I think. At least in my experience. I apologize; I didn't intend to make you Google anything.

Do you believe Dr. Heldman is presenting her factual findings based on the scientific method or not? If not, you are literally telling me you don't believe the information and calling Dr. Heldman's credibility into question. If so, then, fine, you believe Dr. Heldman analyzed media in 2010 and found that 96% of sexualized imagery was of female bodies. Now, do you believe that's relevant?

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Originally Posted by Hannibal_Khan

Here, you are directly implying that I'm some kinda of misogynist or something. Literally just one paragraph before claiming that you haven't. Also, claiming that I was dismissing Ms. Heldman's credibility is also implying that I am sexist/misogynist(because obviously i'm only doing that because she is a woman). And I don't appreciate that.

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You are assuming that I'm saying these things because you're male and Dr. Heldman and I are female. There is no reason for you to assume that.

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Originally Posted by Hannibal_Khan

Seriously, are you confusing me with someone else? I never said; "female characters aren't oversexualized all that much". Nor did I say that oversexualizing female characters was consistent in FF games. I said, "Cid's outfit isn't inconsistent with how other FF characters are portrayed". You deemed it sexually objective, not me. HAHA I am also now thoroughly annoyed with the term "sexual objectification" as it is certainly a subjective matter.

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I misunderstood you then, primarily because the notion that Cidney's outfit isn't sexually objectifying is telling me the sky is green.

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Originally Posted by Hannibal_Khan

Now i'm not going to call you "dense", the way you have to other's on this thread(quite rudely, I might add), because I know that your not(and I don't need to try and talk down to people in an attempt to get my point across). Your simply highly charged on the issue of the sexual objectification of girls/women, as well you should be, but no one on here is on the other side of that issue. But you do seem to be only hearing what you want to hear, as is evident in your multiple misquotes of me(but, hey, at least you were consistent with that).

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The thing about having friends is you don't have to sugarcoat things. I'm not going to defend telling my friends they're being dense when they're being dense.

And, yes, people are on the other side of that issue. People have stated that men and women are sexualized equally, that Cidney's outfit isn't sexually objectifying, and that, even though most people agree that the media at large sexualized women far more than men, that it's not something to be concerned over. That even criticizing it somehow stifles the creativity of "artists" lazily pandering.

I'll just ignore your last part. There's no point if you can't even acknowledge that Cidney's outfit isn't sexually objectifying.

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Originally Posted by Psychotic

Hey Shlup, what about Relm (10) Krile (14) and Rikku (15) you dirty old woman

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Ah... I counted Relm as attractive. I am trout. I was going quickly and using Amano artwork as my guide; totally glossed over Relm being a kid. Krile is... borderline? And Rikku is clearly jailbait. Even if you were to list all three as unattractive that wouldn't equal things out though.

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Originally Posted by Hannibal_Khan

This also has relevance to the Tedtalk Shulp cited. Most the images Ms. Heldman's used a examples of sexualy objectified women seem to be coming from fashion magazines. Now I might be wrong here, but if i'm not mistaken those are majority women in those editorial rooms deciding what goes into those magazines, which are mainly marketed towards women.

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The video addresses that very plainly.

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Originally Posted by Hannibal_Khan

And to the people saying, "Cid's outfit doesn't look like a mechanic outfit", I say yes it does. It looks like a sexy mechanic outfit. It's almost like this game is a "Fantasy based on reality". hmm why does that sound familiar?

It's Final Fantasy! It literally has Fantasy in the title. And like Bob said previously, most character's in FF are portrayed as beautiful(except for villains, of course, who are probably disproportionately older, white-men.)

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Yes, it's an unrealistically sexy mechanics' outfit designed to sexualize the character. You are, again, kind of proving my point here... In the fantasy world, the men are powerful and the ladies are nice to look at. "It literally has Fantasy in the title," yes. In the fantasy world, this is how we treat men and women.

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Originally Posted by Hannibal_Khan

And then their's deviant.art, where there are some truly great artist(and people) who often do something very natural......... They depict our beloved FF character's in very sexually explicit ways. Are they wrong for doing this? Should we all apologize for our sex drives now?

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I have no intention of getting between people and their porn.

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Originally Posted by Hannibal_Khan

I still find Cid's outfit tame compared to other character's outfits, but yet I've never heard this level of criticism for those character's. Is her outfit gratuitous? sure. But is it egregious? nope. fairly consistent with the rest of the title's, IMO. Everyone on this thread knew what to expect when it comes to these games.

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I don't agree with either of your points. I don't feel her outfit is consistent, it seems to me to be far more extreme than almost any character (Yunalesca being the exception), and other characters have received a lot of criticism. Tifa, Rikku, and FFX-2 Yuna. Lulu's massive rack. I didn't even participate in those discussions and I remember the criticism they got.

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Originally Posted by Hannibal_Khan

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Originally Posted by Mirage

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Originally Posted by Hannibal_Khan

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Originally Posted by Jinxie Poo

Except for FFX-2 Rikku, I honestly can't think of a single outfit that's more sexual than Cidney's.

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yunalesca. And Tifa, imo. I still don't get why people are acting like cleavage is new.

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Just because it isn't new doesn't mean it's fine. I hope I don't have to make a list over things that used to be fine but aren't anymore.

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So cleavage isn't fine? why not? And as posted earlier, I've been a FF fan for many years, and have been active on this particular forum for several months but have never heard these criticism's levied on the older title's character's. It seems like up until 2 days ago, this was never really an issue for the people on these boards. So what's changed?

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Again, it's not the cleavage. It's the boobs being pushed up and out and presented, the middriff, the hot pants, the smurf me boots, and... working on machinery. Also that combined with Cidney being the first female Cid, and comparing her to the treatment of other Cid's. Also women in general being treated as sex objects far more than men. It's all of those things.

Also, the "this isn't new" is, again and again, a big part of the problem. As for, this "never being an issue before," the other games mentioned are older. Those discussions have passed for the most part. They also don't have the precedent of a lineage of non-sexy male Cids to compare them to, and their sexy outfits weren't in blatant contrast to what would make sense for their professions quite as much as Cidney's is. It's not that everyone just let the other things go... I mean, do you expect there to be a currently active decade old thread about it? I'm confused what you're expecting here. Raistlin wrote a series on sexism in games fairly recently, actually. Sexism in games is being discussed constantly. Do you want us to hold a weekly "Let's talk about Tifa's boobs" meeting or something?

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Originally Posted by chionos

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Originally Posted by Pumpkin

Also, I think part of the issue with this one is that they took a precedent and changed it in a sexual way because the gender changed. Cid was USUALLY an older, not super attractive guy. Now because Cid is a woman, she's suddenly overly sexy and aged down like 20 years. I know I would personally be reacting differently if they made most of the male Cid's young and sexy and then made a female Cid that way. It would be like "Well, yeah, that's Cid."

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This is the crux of the issue, clearly (and I'm not sure how so many people can't see it), though I am definitely of the opinion that the fact there's not a clearly defined definition for "sexy" or "sexualized" means we can't really get anywhere resembling an agreement.

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I agree that this is perhaps the crux of the issue. That and that she's supposed to be a mechanic.

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Originally Posted by chionos

Because while I believe Cidney is certainly a sexualized character (and unnecessarily so) and is evidence of sexism in video games (or in this case specifically the Final Fantasy franchise), those who think that males in Final Fantasy aren't sexualized are blind or straight up lying to themselves.

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Show me one example of a male character as sexually on display as Cidney. Every item in her outfit is specifically designed to display a different part of her body, and it's not to show off her strength. Describe to me what makes them a sexualized character.

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Originally Posted by chionos

I also think that anyone who ignores the differences between what the average female finds sexy or sexual in a male character and what the average male finds sexy or sexual in a female character will never understand the truth about the situation and furthermore will never be able to change anything.

Comparing revealed skin percentage doesn't work. Comparing female chest bulge to male crotch bulge doesn't work.

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You're ignoring centuries of socialization.

Also, you don't think women are into crotch bulges? You want to balance out how men and women are sexualized in the media, we can talk about increasing crotch bulges. Consider how many women in games have massive titties. Now imagine the same percentage of male characters you had the option to play had a bulge indicating he was carrying a can of Monster energy drink in his pants. And sometimes the developers put the time and effort into making it bounce and sway when he moved.

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Originally Posted by Hannibal_Khan

You say this, but you know almost nothing about her character. Characters in the past have worn revealing outfit's but still have been great characters. Why can't the same be true for her?

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I know someone else addressed this, but I know I already have stated that it's entirely possible I'll like her character in spite of her ridiculous outfit. It adds nothing to the character but eye candy, and, as I've stated repeatedly, it's lazy pandering at the expense of an already sexually marginalized group, but we are all capable of liking things in spite of having criticisms. Think of the thing you like the most in the world--there is something you can criticize about it. I love my daughter, but I can acknowledge that she is lazy as hell without damaging my love for her. I can acknowledge that Tifa's boobs are painful to look at and still really like that character. The same may (or may not, dunno yet) be true for Cidney. She can still be a great character, though there is no way for them to justify that outfit. If I like her, it will be in spite of the outfit.

May I pose a practical question?

Are we gonna change the name of the thread to "Final Fantasy XV: Cid looks like a lady?"

@chionos,

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though I am definitely of the opinion that the fact there's not a clearly defined definition for "sexy" or "sexualized" means we can't really get anywhere resembling an agreement.

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So we are in agreement on this at least :D.

But you also said that previous FF's are not relevant to discussion of Cid's attire, and with that, I disagree. Why should this character be held to a different standard? You say, "her outfit is just ridiculous", but I believe in the context of this game, her outfit is actually less ridiculous than Gladiolus.

Are they both sexually objectified? yes, equally so IMO(appearance wise). Is sexual objectification categorically wrong? I don't believe so. Humans are inherently sexual creature's. And sexual objectification does not equal sexism.

We've seen 3 female characters so far, Luna, Stella and Cidney. The first two are dressed modestly, which seems right b/c they may be royalty or something. Cidney works at a gas station garage. Her outfit, to me, seems to jive with her character. And is not inconsistent with the artistic license Square has taken with previous character design's for the series. Which, I am okay with. Nor do I see her outfit as "evidence of sexism". Should the creator's not have the creative license to make the character according to their artistic vision? Should their vision be censored because of this culture's current P.C. dogma? Why are so many, so quick to dismiss her as nothing more than "male fan-service", with ,what every one musts admit is a very small sample size of information, simply b/c of her outfit?

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Originally Posted by Fox_

The two are not mutually exclusive. Go back to Rikku from X-2. I think she was a very good character! Now how much of the goodness of her character existed "because she's in a bikini?" Approximately 0%. Bikini or business suit, her character remains the same.

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That's your opinion that it didn't add any thing. For me, it did. That's just my sexuality in play, I geuss, and I wont apologize for that. I enjoyed her as a character, in fact, she was my favorite of X-2. I thought she had the best personality/funniest, and she also looked hot in that outfit. Am I not supposed to say this? Am I not allowed to comprehend complex character and story development while also enjoying seeing a very good looking woman?

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Originally Posted by Fox_

The bikini was chosen just to make guys lust after her. Which is pretty much the definition of sexual objectification.

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Any proof of this? Link with quote's from the designer....? No. Then this is just another opinion. Most of characters in FF are aesthetically good looking, regardless of gender. This is Final Fantasy game. I say keep the real world dogma outta my fantasy adventure.

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Originally Posted by Hannibal_Khan

Any proof of this? Link with quote's from the designer....? No. Then this is just another opinion.

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Just like I have no proof that the execs of a major bank are trying to make money. Is that really all you'll accept? A quote from a guy saying "Yes well, we wanted to reduce Rikku to her sexual organs so that all our horny teenaged fans would have something to drool over. I think it really added a lot of nuance to her character."

If you have any alternative viable hypotheses, be my guest. Hey, perhaps it was satire, right?

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Most of characters in FF are aesthetically good looking, regardless of gender. This is Final Fantasy game. I say keep the real world dogma outta my fantasy adventure.

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Are you really trying to tell me your idea of 'Fantasy' is to disproportionately reduce women to sexual objects? If so, how I envy that your fantasies are so well catered for in the current market.

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Originally Posted by Shlup

I appreciate that you can acknowledge the outfit is stupid, but to say that's okay with you because you "don't mind" shows me that you are choosing to ignore all the negative impacts this kind of gender inequality and over sexualization of females has on society.

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This is not the case, I just don't think that Final Fantasy is the trigger for that kind of thing, nor do I think that having a sexualised character is a bad thing.

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Originally Posted by Shlup

Okay, fine, literally all I require of you is to say "This outfit is stupid and that's a bad thing."

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This outfit is stupid and that's a bad thing... in some people's perspective, but not mine. I don't care if an outfit is sexualised and/or stupid. I stopped caring about stupid outfits a long time ago. I think Lady Gaga wears stupid outfits every day and I don't care. As for sexualisation, I disagree that real people should be sexualised unless it's their personal desire to be sexualised. And even then, when I don't know the person in question personally, I always wonder if there was any manipulation of coercing. I am immediately suspicious of any young pop star being treated appropriately when they are dancing around in sexy outfits. But it's out of my control, and for all I know they ARE wanting to do that. So it's their decision. I dislike sexualising in advertisements in particular, though. Unless it's advertising something that is inherently sexual (and things like perfume do NOT count). Even in that case, it should be done in mags that are PG or something, not on billboards.

But in fiction in general, I don't mind it. For me, fiction is something that allows you to immerse yourself in a fantasy world. Sometimes that might be really ugly, sometimes it's full of gorgeous people. I don't think females get unfair treatment in Final Fantasy in this regard. I am pretty sure I disagree with your assessment of males - and females - in Final Fantasy, because I literally don't think Penelo is attractive. She strikes me as really nerdy. Everything about her struck me that way. She also struck me as dull. Sure, she has a spotless face, but I don't think she was attractive just because she had a certain body shape and no zits. Thankfully I'm not that shallow.

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Originally Posted by Shlup

It's not that her rack is on display. I display my rack. My nipples have seen sunshine in the Happiest Place on Earth many times. To reiterate: The first female Cid is the first sexy Cid. And not just because her boobs. They're just just uncovered, they're pushed up and out and on display. And her belly is out. And her buttcheeks are peekin'. And she's wearing thigh-high smurf me boots. And she's supposed to be... a mechanic?? I mean, if she were doing her work and then took off her coveralls to reveal some sexy casual clothes, I would not be nearly as irritated.

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Well, duh. But she was being sexualised. Of course they're going to make her dress sexy if that's the case (although again, I'm unsure how much of that was the intent, and how much of it was the intent to gain sales of certain girl's jackets, hot pants and thigh high boots for some random Japanese clothes line).

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Originally Posted by Shlup

Obviously what each individual person finds "attractive" is subjective, but if they were adult, physically fit, and not too non-human-like I considered them "attractive." I wanted to err on your side so I included characters whose face you don't really see (Shadow) and middle aged men (Auron, Sazh and... I forget his name) as attractive.

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Firstly, I consider someone attractive if I consider them attractive, not if they meet certain criteria. That's what "attractive" is, subjective. As for your criteria, I'm still a bit confused. You say you found 16 male characters that were not physically fit, not adults (surely more girls in this game are underage than guys?), and were basically human. So, I can think of... Vivi, Red XIII and Kimahri - all of which are fair play. But once you get to humans - the ones that ladies and men of the world can actually compare themselves to - the guys are pretty much all fit, aren't they? And obviously all human. That leaves adult, and I'd be surprised (but would hold my hands up) if there were more guys than girls. I still find it absurd to consider every fit adult human attractive, though. xD

Just browsing the list from VII onwards (I find myself incapable of looking at little pixely FFI-VI characters and seriously considering how sexy they are or are not... same for Chibis in IX), I found one fat guy. Ward. Every other character (excepting blatantly-not-human characters for the pre-mentioned reason of human people not comparing their own bodies to them) was a fit teen or adult, both female and male. One or two were underage. Unless all those unattractive males were flooding the old games of I-VI - and perhaps IX where it can get really debatable because... chibi - I'm just not seeing the big obvious unfairness when it comes to which gender is being sexualised. VII, VIII, X, XI, XII, XIII, XIII-2, LR, XIV. Even Crisis Core. They all do it fairly. I personally think IX is done fairly too, because I just can't bring myself to see chibis as sexualised. It doesn't compute in my head. Even if you do, you have... tails to consider, and people who are black blobs with eyes, and rat-people, and people in full armour, and Quina, and bratty kids, and... you get the idea. xD

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Wait, you don't think I thing that a wider range of character types (looks, age, bodytype) is something I agree with or it's something you don't agree with? I also don't feel Final Fantasy has a responsibility to compensate for anyone. It's everyone's responsibility to treat sexuality with respect. Excluding maybe porn; I don't have a problem with actual porn as a rule.

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I may have put that on the wrong list. xD I think we both agree more body shapes would be a nice thing.

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I definitely disagree with you on the first two though. Especially the second one. For your second point you are being very daft.

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See chionos' post. :shobon: Same for the next paragraph you put in, about how there is only one guy who is sexualised because he has an open shirt. I would love to hear from a large group of people who consider themselves to be bisexual to describe what outfits they consider sexy on a guy and then on a girl. I suspect they will not markedly different - in my experience, this is the case, anyway. Girls are generally seen as having a sexy appearance if they are fit and dress skimpy. Guys, if they go around wearing nothing but underwear and showing off their full body, don't tend to get the same treatment. Again, I asked Danielle what she considered sexy on a guy - the "most sexualised" a guy could be for her - and she said showing chest and/or abs (but with a shirt or jacket of some kind) and with some jeans or something on. Bikini top? Hot pants? "No." xD The problem is that the clothes guys are considered to be at their sexiest in tend to be normal clothes. Suits. T-shirt and jeans. Stuff like that. Girls, on the other hand, are seen as sexy in these things, but also seen as sexy in a bikini, or seen as sexy in a low cut top, or seen as sexy in a skirt, thigh high boots, turtlenecks even. A nice dress. Effectively girls tend to be seen as sexy - appearance-wise, obviously - in a much wider variety of clothing, and in some cases it is considered extremely sexy, while guys don't get that kind of thing. That's possibly unfair, but it's just the way people are in a large number of cultures, certainly the ones we live in, in the current world.

For what it's worth, I agree with you on Rikku being blatantly sexualised when you replied to Psy. So freakin' obvious. Krile is wearing clothese appropriate for her age in today's culture. I wouldn't say she is borderline in anything other than "could be at the age when puberty is kicking in and therefore her body is developing in to what some people may mistake for 16 or 18 and therefore consider her sexually attractive" - but she's pixels so idgaf. xD Relm is clearly a kid in every way. But, again, pixels. All the game is pixels. And clearly not sexual.

Oh, you replied to chionos. Goody.

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Originally Posted by Shlup

Also, you don't think women are into crotch bulges? You want to balance out how men and women are sexualized in the media, we can talk about increasing crotch bulges. Consider how many women in games have massive titties. Now imagine the same percentage of male characters you had the option to play had a bulge indicating he was carrying a can of Monster energy drink in his pants. And sometimes the developers put the time and effort into making it bounce and sway when he moved.

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I... have been told by many girls that they do NOT find penises attractive, nor do they find tight clothing in the penis area attractive. Bulges get giggled at on occasion (Olly Murs being the prime example I can think of) but yeah, when I ask for a list fo things girls find sexiest about guys, crotch bulges are generally quite far down the list, below facial features, butt, abs, chest, arms, hands and even "nice calves" which always surprises me. Veeery rare I hear about girls wanting more crotch bulge.

Crotch bulges don't bounce and sway to my knowledge. xD But I do get the point you were making. I agree that boobs bouncing and swaying is a bit much in video games including Final Fantasy, although at the same time I know at least one big boobed girl (not saying who) that was delighted at a certain game including bouncing boobs because they hated how 'static' boobs were in games when a person ran, saying it was 'wrong'. But for me, it's something I find unneccesary even when sexualising a character. If they can magically handle toxic chemicals, they can get a magic bra.

I find bulges sexy





just sayin

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

I... have been told by many girls that they do NOT find penises attractive, nor do they find tight clothing in the penis area attractive. Bulges get giggled at on occasion (Olly Murs being the prime example I can think of) but yeah, when I ask for a list fo things girls find sexiest about guys, crotch bulges are generally quite far down the list, below facial features, butt, abs, chest, arms, hands and even "nice calves" which always surprises me. Veeery rare I hear about girls wanting more crotch bulge.

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The women you talk to have different tastes in what they find sexy and don't represent what all women find attractive.

What's this? A thread where women not only admit at looking, but enjoy it? Why I'd never!

The comparison is a fair one to make.

Never thought we'd be talking about breasts and crotch bulges in the FFXV board, though.

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Originally Posted by Shlup

My nipples have seen sunshine in the Happiest Place on Earth many times.

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Why? Like, I'm not judging you on a moral standpoint, I just... what is the context of this? "Hey Mickey, I've got a surprise for you!"?

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Originally Posted by Shlup

Who's the oldest playable female character? Lulu at 22?

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Just looked into this and you're right, Lulu is the joint oldest - Aerith is also 22. Even the likes of Lightning, Fang and Freya are only 21. I was thinking "Huh, surely Imperial General Celes will be older" and she's just 18. The best I can come up with are temporary characters Beatrix (27) and Edea (unknown but surely in her 40's) and Rosa in The After Years at 36, but bear in mind that's a sequel and she's 19 in the original FFIV. Square has a really weird attitude towards women.

Well, in that case, I don't mind if the guys have a bulge, sure. Whatever works!

Although as someone said in that reddit page...

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But when I do take a peek it's less of a "how big is he" look and more of a "damn I want that" look.

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...and I still think it's not very high on most girl's lists (either that or they simply don't want to admit it ;)).

Still, as the player behind The Bulge, this makes me smile a little. Especially when they say "Its such a turn-on to see the bulge." xD

EDIT: Just saw Psy's post about female ages. That, to me, is far worse than anything else when it comes to sexism in Final Fantasy games.

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Originally Posted by Psychotic

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Originally Posted by Shlup

Who's the oldest playable female character? Lulu at 22?

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Just looked into this and you're right, Lulu is the joint oldest - Aerith is also 22. Even the likes of Lightning, Fang and Freya are only 21. I was thinking "Huh, surely Imperial General Celes will be older" and she's just 18. The best I can come up with is Rosa in The After Years at 36, but bear in mind that's a sequel and she's 19 in the original FFIV. Square has a really weird attitude towards women.

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I was actually looking in to that after playing Atelier Totori and Meruru, because one of the girls would have been in her 30's by the third game (Meruru) but instead they aged her down to 8. Why? Because they literally say no one wants to see her in her 30's. Oh and turning her in to an 8 year old was an accident. They were actually trying to make her in to the "ideal age" of FOURTEEN

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph.../ChristmasCake

Apparently to some, women are past their prime by 25. But its always bugged me because I mean some of these characters have like years and years of experience and high up positions and they're like... 19. And I'm not saying that's impossible but it sure as heck is much more unlikely than they make it. Like in Xenosaga, Shion Uzuki is in an extremely prominent position for one of the biggest companies in the universe heading all these major projects and how old is she? 22.

That's part of what I was talking about with Cidney. FFIV Cid: 54. FFVII Cid: 32. And you know Cid Kramer, Cid Fabool, Cid from VI, Cid from X, you know they're older than 30. How much do you want to be Cidney is under 25? I could be wrong but its just a feeling

Ha, yeah, who doesn't love the JRPG trope of the 15-year-old army captain?

Hey now, Fran is like 50.

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Originally Posted by Pumpkin

I was actually looking in to that after playing Atelier Totori and Meruru, because one of the girls would have been in her 30's by the third game (Meruru) but instead they aged her down to 8. Why? Because they literally say no one wants to see her in her 30's. Oh and turning her in to an 8 year old was an accident. They were actually trying to make her in to the "ideal age" of FOURTEEN

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That has nothing to do with just women. Gio is 70 and does not look like 70, Sterk is in his 40s and still looks like in his 20s. Some characters are just not cool enough looking for anime-lovers. Xehanort in Kingdom Hearts did his body change not simply to survive. Also Rorona is supposed to be 14 because Totori and Meruru were teenagers in their games and Rorona was 14 in her game originally as well (something that got changed in the West by making her 17). Plenty of Atelier characters are 30+, women as well but just don't look like it. Such as Gisela, Astrid or Esty.