is Sephiroth the best bad guy in the series?

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Originally Posted by The Crystal

We know that the GG have the power to cure. But we know that Aerith's voice don't have any power. Her rain was falling over Kadaj's body(corrupted("sick") Lifestream). And now, you are saying that GG didn't was responsible for Kadaj's dead, but her voice(that we know don't have any special power) was?! This don't make any sense, and you know it.

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Kadaj reacted Aerith's voice far more than he did to the raindrops. And don't get me wrong. I am NOT saying she had a special power. I am saying HER VOICE convinced Kadaj to willingly revert into life energy.

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I'm just using logic.

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And logic based on false premises will lead to a faulty conclusion.

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I heard that is said in the Reunion Files, that the "long and complex conversion process" was only necessary during the two years between FFVII and AC. In the end of AC, Sephiroth's corrupted Lifestream was so big, that he could use it to directly attack and corrupt the pure one.
Now, by logic, what that means? That means that his Lifestream was more powerfull(big) than the original one and that he could corrupt the pure one easily(because of this power).
The fact is, Sephiroth's Lifestream was more powerfull than the original one. This is why the Reunion Files say that he is the most powerfull being in FFVII universe, because no one is more powerfull than the pure Lifestream in the FFVII Compilation, with exception of him.

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So, "Reunion Files", except you can't give me a quote, or a page. I'm going to make a guess that if I look back through my copy, I will find nothing of the sort in it.

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Well, the movie hints. In the end of it, the tainted Lifestream begun to descend in form of "tentacles" to begun the process of destroying the world. In this moment, is very obvious that the tainted one became more powerful than the pure one, even because the pure one didn't try to stop the tainted one(like it did with meteor in the end of FFVII), because the pure one didn't have the power to do it.

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We are not watching the same movie, since the tainted lifestream did no such thing. The most it did was look imposing.

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MANY people died by Geostigma during the two years between FFVII and AC, how you know that the tainted one was not big enough to cover the entire planet(considering that Sephiroth's plan was to destroy all of it)?

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How do YOU know that it was?

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And my original claim was that he could controll all the Lifestream if he wanted(by corrupting it), what is the truth.

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No. It is not the truth. It may eventually be true that he can control all of it, but it is not currently the case.

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You belive that Aerith's voice is more powerful than her Great Gospel! I'm sorry, but i don't think you are right.

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I never said that. Power is not the direct consideration. I do, however, think Aerith's words had more of an effect than her magic, in the case of Kadaj.

[quote]I'm just using logic. I heard that is said in the Reunion Files, that the "long and complex conversion process" was only necessary during the two years between FFVII and AC. In the end of AC, Sephiroth's corrupted Lifestream was so big, that he could use it to directly attack and corrupt the pure one.
Now, by logic, what that means? That means that his Lifestream was more powerfull(big) than the original one and that he could corrupt the pure one easily(because of this power).

Again, you've "HEARD" that it's in Reunion files, but have nothing more than that.

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Read what i writed in the topic above.

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Your only source something you yourself have not even read, much less been able to cite.

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Read my explanations above.

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Which still do not substantiate said claims.

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The fact is: The Lifestream is the source of all magic and power in FFVII universe, and Omega Weapon is capable of controlling all of it, meaning that OW is the god of FFVII. The Reunion Files said that Sephiroth is, and will ever be, the most powerfull being of FFVII, meaning that he is more powerful than OW itself.
AC Sephiroth is more powerfull than the god of FFVII world!

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'Power' which may have nothing to do with raw energy storage, but instead of will and skill.
Also, I'm assuming you're citing DOC, so could you quote the line that says OW can control all of it?

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BUT thinking well, in a fight, Sephiroth would lose to Kefka, because Sephiroth don't have controll over all magic yet, but Kefka have. And Sephiroth cannot controll Kefka's magic, because it don't have anything to do with the Lifestream.

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And the both of them cry thanks to the Kuja curbstomp.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

Kadaj reacted Aerith's voice far more than he did to the raindrops. And don't get me wrong. I am NOT saying she had a special power. I am saying HER VOICE convinced Kadaj to willingly revert into life energy.

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Yeah, but in the same time, her GG was here, so, who can say that it didn't work in him? I was in another thread(in another forum), and people are discussing about it, and my conclusion is that, this is only about interpretation. OR maybe the RF say something about it. Can you see in your copy of the RF?

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And logic based on false premises will lead to a faulty conclusion.

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I don't belive that what they said is false. The guys that i know are great FFVII fans, and they know everything about it. They use informations about the RF in many arguments, and they don't have any motive to lie. Hell, some of them even know japanese.

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So, "Reunion Files", except you can't give me a quote, or a page. I'm going to make a guess that if I look back through my copy, I will find nothing of the sort in it.

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Instead of making a guess, why you just don't look through it? I'm using what i heard about it, but if you have the RF with you, you can look in it, and help both of us in this discussion.

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We are not watching the same movie, since the tainted lifestream did no such thing. The most it did was look imposing.

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You are talking about the part of the "tentacles"? Is in the begin of the fight. Cloud and Sephiroth clash their swords against each other, and then you can see it. Is in the part that the coral begin to sing for the first time.

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How do YOU know that it was?

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Like you, i don't know. But considering that he wanted to destroy the entire world with it, what i said is possible.

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No. It is not the truth. It may eventually be true that he can control all of it, but it is not currently the case.

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And this is what i'm saying. He didn't controll all of it, but he could, by corrupting it. This is why i'm saying that he is more powerfull than the Lifestream itself.

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I never said that. Power is not the direct consideration. I do, however, think Aerith's words had more of an effect than her magic, in the case of Kadaj.

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Like i said, this is only about interpretation.

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Again, you've "HEARD" that it's in Reunion files, but have nothing more than that.

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But by your own word, you have more than that. You said that you have the RF. Why you don't pick it, and use it, in this thread?

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Your only source something you yourself have not even read, much less been able to cite.

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If you think that i'm wrong, then why you don't use the RF to prove it?

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Which still do not substantiate said claims.

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Use the RF, and prove that i'm wrong then.

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'Power' which may have nothing to do with raw energy storage, but instead of will and skill.

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Sephiroth is more powerfull than OW, because he can corrupt and controll it.

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Also, I'm assuming you're citing DOC, so could you quote the line that says OW can control all of it?

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Well, thinking about that, i think that it can't controll all of it. OW can only controll the normal Lifestream, not the stagnant one. The stagnant one make OW more weak, this is why Chaos(made of stagnant Lifestream) Vincent could destroy it. But this doesn't mater, because my argument is that Sephiroth was more powerfull than it. Even if OW could absorb the stagnant Lifestream, Sephiroth could still corrupt it.

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And the both of them cry thanks to the Kuja curbstomp.

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Kefka destroyed a planet too.


Seryously, if you have the RF, why you don't use it to prove your points in this discussion?

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Originally Posted by The Crystal

Yeah, but in the same time, her GG was here, so, who can say that it didn't work in him? I was in another thread(in another forum), and people are discussing about it, and my conclusion is that, this is only about interpretation. OR maybe the RF say something about it. Can you see in your copy of the RF?

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Yes. In regards to this scene, Nomura said he was glad he was able to show Aerith 'getting through' to Kadaj, so that he 'could find his redemption'. Definitely suggest psychological, rather than mechanistic happenings.

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I don't belive that what they said is false. The guys that i know are great FFVII fans, and they know everything about it. They use informations about the RF in many arguments, and they don't have any motive to lie. Hell, some of them even know japanese.

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If they are fanboys, they have motive to lie, to make their favorite look better. Not proof that they are, but still, it helps to have a page number.

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Instead of making a guess, why you just don't look through it? I'm using what i heard about it, but if you have the RF with you, you can look in it, and help both of us in this discussion.

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Because it was late, I would have to dig it out, and it's 100 pages to sift through. Now that it's early, I can do some of that. Still not seeing it in the Sephiroth or story sections.

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You are talking about the part of the "tentacles"? Is in the begin of the fight. Cloud and Sephiroth clash their swords against each other, and then you can see it. Is in the part that the coral begin to sing for the first time.

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And what was its overall effect? Nada.

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Like you, i don't know. But considering that he wanted to destroy the entire world with it, what i said is possible.

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Yes, but possible isn't proof.

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And this is what i'm saying. He didn't controll all of it, but he could, by corrupting it. This is why i'm saying that he is more powerfull than the Lifestream itself.

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Just because you control something does not make you more powerful than it. Control is not always about power. In this case, it is about infection, by taking the weak wills of those dead from lifestream. Most likely, he controls the stream by telling willless dead folk to 'push', the same way it came out at the end of FF7

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Like i said, this is only about interpretation.

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And considering my interpretation does not require an additional hoop to jump through, and looking through, and has support from Reunion files (specifically when they are discussing that scene, and say Aerith 'got through' to him and helped him find redemption), parsimony favors it. Yours, "Great Gospel is responsible, and the reason why it doesn't seem to have an effect is, because, um..."

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But by your own word, you have more than that. You said that you have the RF. Why you don't pick it, and use it, in this thread?

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Because I don't feel like flipping through 100 some pages just to show that you're full of it when you haven't even given us proof one, for one. For two, because YOU need to use it to substantiate your claim.

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If you think that i'm wrong, then why you don't use the RF to prove it?

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Use the RF, and prove that i'm wrong then.

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That's not how it works at all, child. Until you provide me with the relevant citation, I have no reason to believe what you say.
And on a look through the relevant parts, I have even less reason to believe you.

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Sephiroth is more powerfull than OW, because he can corrupt and controll it.

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Say what? This you'll definitely have to give a source on.

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Well, thinking about that, i think that it can't controll all of it. OW can only controll the normal Lifestream, not the stagnant one. The stagnant one make OW more weak, this is why Chaos(made of stagnant Lifestream) Vincent could destroy it. But this doesn't mater, because my argument is that Sephiroth was more powerfull than it. Even if OW could absorb the stagnant Lifestream, Sephiroth could still corrupt it.

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So, wild, baseless claims, basically. Gotcha. For all you know, Omega could rip the lifestream out of Sephy's grasp, and purify it lickety split, if it were not dormant during the years between 7 and AC. It also is worth noting that stagnant Mako generally does not come about naturally.

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Kefka destroyed a planet too.

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No, Kefka made a planet very sad. Kuja planetbusted.

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Seryously, if you have the RF, why you don't use it to prove your points in this discussion?

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Because until recently, I had no idea what your supposed source was.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

Yes. In regards to this scene, Nomura said he was glad he was able to show Aerith 'getting through' to Kadaj, so that he 'could find his redemption'. Definitely suggest psychological, rather than mechanistic happenings.

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The word "suggest" is very important here. And can you show to me what exactly is said in this part?

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And what was its overall effect? Nada.

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How you know? The scene change to the fight between Cloud and Sephiroth, but who said that nothing happened during it. Sephiroth's plan(that he planed during two years) was to use the tainted one, and destroy the planet. He said this to Cloud before the fight. But when he finally summon all the tainted one, nothing happened, just because the scene changed?!
Is like if a guy said to another, that he puted a bomb in a building(in another place). Then we see the bomb in "3...2...1", but then the scene change back to the two guys. You think that the bomb didn't exploded just because the scene changed?

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Yes, but possible isn't proof.

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The same to you.

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Just because you control something does not make you more powerful than it. Control is not always about power. In this case, it is about infection, by taking the weak wills of those dead from lifestream. Most likely, he controls the stream by telling willless dead folk to 'push', the same way it came out at the end of FF7

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Sephiroth didn't just controll it, the tainted one was completely corrupted by Jenova, and in AC, Sephiroth's entire body was made of Jenova cells. The tainted Lifestream was practicaly, part of himself.

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And considering my interpretation does not require an additional hoop to jump through, and looking through, and has support from Reunion files (specifically when they are discussing that scene, and say Aerith 'got through' to him and helped him find redemption), parsimony favors it. Yours, "Great Gospel is responsible, and the reason why it doesn't seem to have an effect is, because, um..."

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I already knew about this part in the RF. But like you said "considering my interpretation...". Yeah exactly, your interpretation, not your fact. Just because Nomura said that he wanted to give Kadaj a moment of redemption before his dead, doesn't mean that he died because of Aerith's voice.

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Because I don't feel like flipping through 100 some pages just to show that you're full of it when you haven't even given us proof one, for one. For two, because YOU need to use it to substantiate your claim.

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Exactly, you don't feel like flipping through 100 some pages(divided in chapters/topics) to prove your point. And you want me to agree with what you say because? If you can prove that you are right, then use the book and prove it. I already said that i cannot prove because i'm only using what i heard, but you can, then why you don't do it? I didn't knew that you have the book, so, when i readed what you writed, i thought that was only your opinion. If you said something like "this is in the RF" then i would not discuss with you.

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Use the RF, and prove that i'm wrong then.

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I'm not the only one that have to prove my point.

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That's not how it works at all, child. Until you provide me with the relevant citation, I have no reason to believe what you say.
And on a look through the relevant parts, I have even less reason to believe you.

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Yeah, that's not how it works at all. You want me to prove my point, but you you don't feel like proving yours.

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Say what? This you'll definitely have to give a source on.

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"Producer Kitase decided that they couldn’t make any other character stronger than Sephiroth in the world of FFVII."-Found in the AC director's commentary from the JP DVD

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So, wild, baseless claims, basically. Gotcha. For all you know, Omega could rip the lifestream out of Sephy's grasp, and purify it lickety split, if it were not dormant during the years between 7 and AC. It also is worth noting that stagnant Mako generally does not come about naturally.

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Read the topic above.

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No, Kefka made a planet very sad. Kuja planetbusted.

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Kuja planetbuted? I don't remember of seeing that? Proves, please.

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Because until recently, I had no idea what your supposed source was.

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But now that you know, you can use it in this thread, to make our life easy. I respect the facts and the official word of SE. If you want me to shut up, just use the RF to prove that i'm wrong.



What i wanted to prove with all this discussion, is that Sephiroth is the most powerful being in FFVII universe.

"Producer Kitase decided that they couldn’t make any other character stronger than Sephiroth in the world of FFVII."-Found in the AC director's commentary from the JP DVD

This the prove. If you don't like it, this is your problem.

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Originally Posted by The Crystal

The word "suggest" is very important here. And can you show to me what exactly is said in this part?

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No, the word suggest is NOT very important, and is more more important than any other time someone decides to not make huge declarative statements lacking proof one. However, I can bevy you with quotes.

P117- Reunion- "Originally, none of the sequences with Kadaj were there, such as the scene where Kadaj feels Aerith's presence and disappears into the rain."
P119, Smiles- "Kadaj finally finds a sense of peace and fades away into the sky."
Kadaj is in both cases the actor, not the acted upon.

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How you know? The scene change to the fight between Cloud and Sephiroth, but who said that nothing happened during it. Sephiroth's plan(that he planed during two years) was to use the tainted one, and destroy the planet. He said this to Cloud before the fight. But when he finally summon all the tainted one, nothing happened, just because the scene changed?!
Is like if a guy said to another, that he puted a bomb in a building(in another place). Then we see the bomb in "3...2...1", but then the scene change back to the two guys. You think that the bomb didn't exploded just because the scene changed?

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Argument from ignorance. You aren't even sure his plan was near completion yet, or that those clouds could DO anything. In fact, Reunion files says the only reason he even showed up was for vengeance against Cloud (P 61, Nojima's quote). It also only refers to the clouds as "Dark Clouds" (p83, the timeline of the events), throwing a serious wrench in your postulate that it's the tainted lifestream.

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The same to you.

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At least I'm decently following scientific method. You're saying "Prove me wrong, Lol!"

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Sephiroth didn't just controll it, the tainted one was completely corrupted by Jenova, and in AC, Sephiroth's entire body was made of Jenova cells. The tainted Lifestream was practicaly, part of himself.

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Source? Because I know that quote is definitely not in RF.

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I already knew about this part in the RF. But like you said "considering my interpretation...". Yeah exactly, your interpretation, not your fact. Just because Nomura said that he wanted to give Kadaj a moment of redemption before his dead, doesn't mean that he died because of Aerith's voice.

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And it also doesn't mean you are automatically correct either, especially when we have contradictory evidence.

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Exactly, you don't feel like flipping through 100 some pages(divided in chapters/topics) to prove your point. And you want me to agree with what you say because? If you can prove that you are right, then use the book and prove it. I already said that i cannot prove because i'm only using what i heard, but you can, then why you don't do it? I didn't knew that you have the book, so, when i readed what you writed, i thought that was only your opinion. If you said something like "this is in the RF" then i would not discuss with you.

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Child, stop attempting to shift the gorram burden of proof onto me. I told why I didn't look through it late at night, and I've gone through and looked through it now. There is JACK in any of the passages describing Sephiroth that suggests what you are talking about, and a more comprehensive look through the minutae uncovers nothing either. You are working from negative leg.

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I'm not the only one that have to prove my point.

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No, but you are the one who has to prove your point.

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Yeah, that's not how it works at all. You want me to prove my point, but you you don't feel like proving yours.

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Actually, that IS how it works. You are making an extraordinary claim. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The more extraordinary the claim, the more extraordinary the evidence. Your claim is quite a lot more extraordinary than my claim.

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"Producer Kitase decided that they couldn’t make any other character stronger than Sephiroth in the world of FFVII."-Found in the AC director's commentary from the JP DVD

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"Stronger" being a very, very, very vague term, in that it is used to refer to will, physical strength, screen presence, etc. Context would help.

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Read the topic above.

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Which STILL does not yet show your stance to be valid.

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Kuja planetbuted? I don't remember of seeing that? Proves, please.

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You see him start doing it, as he casually razes the landscape of Terra, while the Invincible escapes with the party, who comment on him continuing to do it to the rest of the planet, suggesting a BDZ event.

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But now that you know, you can use it in this thread, to make our life easy. I respect the facts and the official word of SE. If you want me to shut up, just use the RF to prove that i'm wrong.

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I think the utter absence of it from Reunion Files pretty much proves it isn't in there.

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What i wanted to prove with all this discussion, is that Sephiroth is the most powerful being in FFVII universe.

"Producer Kitase decided that they couldn’t make any other character stronger than Sephiroth in the world of FFVII."-Found in the AC director's commentary from the JP DVD

This the prove. If you don't like it, this is your problem.

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See my above request for you to provide context for "strong". Also, Omega Weapon isn't a character.
Nevermind that Sephiroth being the most powerful STILL doesn't substantiate your specific claims, or make him all powerful.

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What i wanted to prove with all this discussion, is that Sephiroth is the most powerful being in FFVII universe.

"Producer Kitase decided that they couldn’t make any other character stronger than Sephiroth in the world of FFVII."-Found in the AC director's commentary from the JP DVD

This the prove. If you don't like it, this is your problem.

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Think for a second how vague strong is. Cloud beat Sephiroth fair and square, it was one on one. Cloud even had the disadvantage of having to fight Kadaaj before the battle, he still won. So in terms of fighting ability we can infer that Cloud is better. And if you say he isn't a better fighter then you didn't pay much attention to the end when Cloud defeated Sephiroth.

I think that what really mater is:

"Producer Kitase decided that they couldn’t make any other character stronger than Sephiroth in the world of FFVII."-Found in the AC director's commentary from the JP DVD

Your interpretation of "stronger" is different than mine. To me, Kitase was saying that Sephiroth was the most powerful. This is why i'm saying that he can controll the Lifestream easily and etc, because he is most powerful than OW!!

We both have different interpretations of "stronger" and because of this, i think that he is the most powerful in FFVII universe, and you don't, so, lets agree to disagree.

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Originally Posted by The Crystal

We both have different interpretations of "stronger" and because of this, i think that he is the most powerful in FFVII universe, and you don't, so, lets agree to disagree.

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Exactly thats why you can't go by exactly what SE says.

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Originally Posted by Goldenboco

Exactly thats why you can't go by exactly what SE says.

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Yes, i can. I can interpret the word "stronger" in any way that i want, like you or Ryushikaze can interpret it in different ways too. This is only about opinions, and you cannot say that my opinion is wrong. SE didn't said EXACTLY what was the meaning of the word, meaning that any interpretation is valid.
And about the fight, is obvious that Sephiroth lost because of his arrogance, i don't even need to prove it, just watch the movie.

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Originally Posted by The Crystal

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Originally Posted by Goldenboco

Exactly thats why you can't go by exactly what SE says.

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Yes, i can. I can interpret the word "stronger" in any way that i want, like you or Ryushikaze can interpret it in different ways too. This is only about opinions, and you cannot say that my opinion is wrong. SE didn't said EXACTLY what was the meaning of the word, meaning that any interpretation is valid.
And about the fight, is obvious that Sephiroth lost because of his arrogance, i don't even need to prove it, just watch the movie.

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Villians are always arrogant, and always gives them a great reason why they lost. Sephiroth was trying, hard watch the fight closely, sure he was talking trash but in the end we all do that. There was a look of terror in Sephiroth's eyes when Cloud used Omnislash because he realized Cloud was stronger.

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Originally Posted by Goldenboco

Villians are always arrogant, and always gives them a great reason why they lost. Sephiroth was trying, hard watch the fight closely, sure he was talking trash but in the end we all do that. There was a look of terror in Sephiroth's eyes when Cloud used Omnislash because he realized Cloud was stronger.

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Or because he was taken by surprise.
Like i said, i(and many other people) belive in what Kitase said, and think that Sephiroth is much more stronger than anyone(including Cloud), meaning that he lost only because of his arrogance.
Lets just forget it okay? You cannot prove that Sephiroth is that weak, and i cannot prove that he is that powerful.

Forgeting about Sephiroth's powers now, i want to say that he is not a great villain, because he don't have any good motives, and any personality.

Personally, I'm with Ryu on this one. The Crystal, your argument seems to revolve around 'show my facts, not interpretation' and 'use your copy of the RF to prove me wrong'. It's like your trying to win by default. Also, you've managed to contradict yourself when you disagreed with Ryu because his argument was an interpretation, but later you stated each of you could interpret words a different way.

Please Continue.

Cloud is indead stronger than Sephiroth. In both the Game and advant Children they Pictate Cloud as stronger by pitting them in a one on one fight. Strength in a fight is more than shear power, speed, or specific powerful skills. Its also about cunning and battle sense. There isn't much of a debate of who's stronger, as Cloud came out Victorious twice.

That said Sephiroth is only a decent Villian, Jenova better, but not by much.

A real villian my friend is Kefka or Kuja.

It's been said before, but your opinion does not make Sephy a great villain.
Also, no offense, but it doesn't look like anybody is even listening to you anymore. Ryushikaze and The Crystal are basically taking over this thread.

this was posted by some muppet!

look its everyone’s thread the fact that some people have more to say then others doesn’t matter! Im just wondering if anyone thinks their is a villian in the series that you have hated more and wanted to kill! than Sephiroth.

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Originally Posted by corncracker

Cloud is indead stronger than Sephiroth. In both the Game and advant Children they Pictate Cloud as stronger by pitting them in a one on one fight. Strength in a fight is more than shear power, speed, or specific powerful skills. Its also about cunning and battle sense. There isn't much of a debate of who's stronger, as Cloud came out Victorious twice.

That said Sephiroth is only a decent Villian, Jenova better, but not by much.

A real villian my friend is Kefka or Kuja.

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Also Cloud has Heroes luck. That is the fact that the hero will always win, even if the odds are stacked highly against them, and the chance of winning is about 0.00000001%. Heroes are the luckiest people on earth.

That being said, villains are the unluckiest people on earth, seeing as their life dreams of world domination/destruction are about to come true, when some hero goes and spoils all their plans in a matter of days.