I sorta with Momji here, I used to play RPGs a lot, I hardly played any other genre when I was still in high school, but now I mostly play action/adventure and shoot em ups now. Still play Final Fantasy and a few other RPG titles, I don't play them anywhere near as much as I used too.
This forum has been around since FF8, I didn't know that. I think that theres still plenty of activity on this forum, of course I'm still pretty new, but it doesn't seem to that dead.
Yeah I'm serious. Stories in books vary like quality gameplay and stories in video games do. You can find loads of crap in both mediumsQuote:
Originally Posted by darkchrono
First off I wouldn't necessarily compare video games to books (as most stories in video games are crap when you try to compare them to stories in books (the only video game story I have seen that could even come close to a story within a good book would be xenogears)).Quote:
Originally Posted by Depression Moon
And yes generally when you get out of your school age years you tend to start having much more important things on your plate then sitting back and playing and talking about games all day long.
Not sure if you were being sarcastic with that comment or not but if you weren't there's a response for ya.
You sure you know what you are talking about. Books come from professional writers and storytellers. Video games come from professionals at making graphics.
You think games are on an equal level as books. Think of a popular video game whose story is on the same level as a popular book (not including xenogears since I mentioned that that was the only one I could think of already).
And if you think about it if somebody was so good at creating stories why in the world would they stay in the video game medium where the vast majority of the audience is silly 16 year olds. When they could go into the adult writing business and reach a much wider and mature audience.
Twilight is a popular book.
....The people who make the graphics AREN"T the same people who make the story. There ARE professional writers writing the story lines for video games.Quote:
Originally Posted by darkchrono
And adult writing business? If you pay attention, a lot of these games have many deep and mature concepts. For example, even some of the older SNES games had amazingly developed stories. The Lufia Games, Breath of Fire II come to mind. Then theres Earthbound, and while the overall plot was somewhat basic, the individual stories that were found throughout may not have been that deep, but they were packed with humour and very well placed cultural references, not something some amateur writer came up with.
Then of course games like Xenosaga, which employed heavy christian Symbolism, unique characters and concepts. Lets not forget the political overtones that filled games like FF XII and Wild Arms 4.
There are a LOT of very well done stories in video games, they are simply forced to present them in a different fashion then in books. To say that video game writing is by default lower quality, with the exception of the story you so happen to like, is an insult to all those who put so much effort into their art.
You have to consider who they want to present the story to.
.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoCracker....The people who make the graphics AREN"T the same people who make the story. There ARE professional writers writing the story lines for video games.Quote:
Originally Posted by darkchrono
And adult writing business? If you pay attention, a lot of these games have many deep and mature concepts. For example, even some of the older SNES games had amazingly developed stories. The Lufia Games, Breath of Fire II come to mind. Then theres Earthbound, and while the overall plot was somewhat basic, the individual stories that were found throughout may not have been that deep, but they were packed with humour and very well placed cultural references, not something some amateur writer came up with.
Then of course games like Xenosaga, which employed heavy christian Symbolism, unique characters and concepts. Lets not forget the political overtones that filled games like FF XII and Wild Arms 4.
There are a LOT of very well done stories in video games, they are simply forced to present them in a different fashion then in books. To say that video game writing is by default lower quality, with the exception of the story you so happen to like, is an insult to all those who put so much effort into their art.
Sorry but if you included some of the final fantasy stories and Wild Arms stories in that list then I'm not sure you have a real good grasp of what a good story is.
The final fantasy stories while they are fun to play they are very childish at the same time. Let's look at ff7 (which many people consider to have one of the best stories if not the best story within the entire series).
Try to sit down and think about what took place within ff7. When you think about it the only thing that happened was that Cloud met up with a group of rebels. The rebels tried to save the city by blowing up the reactor. Then the rebels find out about a person named Sephiroth and virtually spend the rest of the game finding things out about Sephiroth. That's it. That's all that really happens story wise. What made ff7 so interesting was the things you were able to find out about the main characters along the way. But plot wise the game was rather mediocre.
Basically most video game stories are all the same. Overyly young characters go out on an adventure and end up trying to save the world.
So please tell me where you hear that video games have professional writers writing for them. Because I have a very hard time believing that if they are really all that great at their art that they would seclude themselves in a genre full of people who can't appreciate how talented they really are.
Every medium has there good titles and there duds. I cannot in good taste say that Harry Potter or Twilight should be considered literary masterpieces nor am I going to feed you bull that Halo is good sci-fi and Tales of Vesperia is on par with LotR.
Yet there are games with excellent writing and there are titles that can give an experience that goes beyond what a book or movie could do. Shin Megami Tensei III, Persona 3, Final Fantasy Tactics, Suikoden series, Wild ARMS 2nd Ignition, Vagrant Story, Breath of Fire V: Dragon Quarter (hell BoF2-5 to be honest) the MGS series, Fallout series, and Bioshock all have excellent and mature story telling. Sure there is a bit of cheese but who says mature writing has to be crime drama and film noir?
In Shin Megami Tensei III, you watch the world end in the beginning of the game, demons overtake the world and bid in a struggle to fight to see who will remake the world. You are given three main paths to choose from. Now unlike most games where your choices are simply be a saint or be an evil creep, you instead face three different philosophy's that are neither good or evil. Shijima believes in absolute order, individuality is wiped out in order to create a society that is like a clockwork machine. There will be no suffering or sadness, but neither will there be happiness or passion. Yosuga believes in survival of the fittest to an extreme, the weak should be killed or enslaved to benefit the strong. Though it has its cruelty it also allows the most freedom for its people. Musubi is detachment and introspection, it believes all people should be separte from each other and exist in our own world, there, we will be able to psycho-analyze ourselfs and reach new depths of introspection in exchange for contact with others, we lose out on pain that others cause but we also lose the joy and insight that others bring. How's that for mature philosophy, its not often games make you think about choices that hold no real "good" or "evil" connotations to them.
Final Fantasy Tactics has you in a war torn country on the verge of civil war. Politics, betrayal, and questions about moral justice are central themes to the game. Ramza Beoluve is a tormented soul who has to choose between social obligation and his own sense of justice. He faces a friend, he feels he betrayed who now spends his time inciting a war and lying and killing his way to the top. It doesn't end with some sappy speech from Ramza that convinces Delita to change his ways. (SPOILER)Rather Ramza is presumed dead and spends his remaining years in exile from his home and birthright, marked as a criminal and a heretic. Yet he leaves satisfied knowing he did what he felt was right. Delita becomes king but at the cost of his very soul, though he started with good intentions he becomes the very thing he sought to fight against. His last thoughts we see are about the idealistic Ramza. What's not mature and amazing about that?
Wild Arms 2 discusses what it means to be a hero but instead of the usual fairy tale it means "standing up for justice" and "never giving up" it instead takes the turn and describes a hero as a sacrifice. Someone who gives their time , energy and sometimes even their life for others, because people are too weak to stand up for themselves. It carries this train of thought throughout the title and it has a rather satisfactory end.
MGS deals with Nuclear proliferation; technology and the information age in regards to how they affect society and war; thoughts on patriotism and sacrifice for things you believe in; about PMCs and the growing alarm of privatization of the military. Yes it has its fair share of cheese but deep down the stories have always been more about its social and political commentary.
Games also offer experiences you can't have in books or movies, Ico for instance has little dialogue and most of its action is based on the player but its story is amazing considering its simplicity. You truly grow to care for Yorda and the journey holds more meaning to you cause unlike a book or movie where the audience is usually an objective observer, games allow us to take a more subjective role. You care about Yorda cause you are the one that is protecting her, youare the one who faced the dangers and overcame obstacles for her sake and somehow though all the frustration you begin to feel and care for her.
Shadow of the Colossus is another fine example. I know more people who stopped playing this game cause they felt bad than because they lost interest or thought it was crappy. One professional reviewer even wrote he could never bring himself to finish the game. Not cause its was lacking nor cause he didn't want to finish the experience but rather because as he went along with it he slowly realized what he was tasked to do was wrong. Each Colossi you fell doesn't issue some joyous fanfare but a sad melody as you watch one of the great wonders be snuffed out forever. You are then thrown into the moral situation of whether you should continue to fight for love or stop for the sake of your conscience. I can't say I've ever read a book that made me want to stop reading cause it made me make a problematic moral choice...
Lots of games have good writing, just not stuff by Nojima...
^ Well put, I think we have our answer here.
But how do you feel about the health of the forum and General Gaming?
Sorry, but, while I haven't played the game, I have to say that your assessment that there is no good or evil is a bit off, from how you presented the philosophies. Two of them talk about a world in which love and joy have been done away with, either through an elimination of free will, or through an introspection so deep that it cuts off all interactions with other people, including family and friends. And the third philosophy includes mass murder and slavery. So, yeah, there is good in the game in that you are "saving the world", I suppose, but the three choices you presented are basically evil, evil, and more evil.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
Well, "many people" consider FF7 to be one of the best games if not the best game in the series, the opinons on the story have been a little more flexible. There have been plenty of people who thought the story could have been improved upon, but who still loved the game due to gameplay, character development, music, graphic style, etectera.Quote:
The final fantasy stories while they are fun to play they are very childish at the same time. Let's look at ff7 (which many people consider to have one of the best stories if not the best story within the entire series).
Try to sit down and think about what took place within ff7. When you think about it the only thing that happened was that Cloud met up with a group of rebels. The rebels tried to save the city by blowing up the reactor. Then the rebels find out about a person named Sephiroth and virtually spend the rest of the game finding things out about Sephiroth. That's it. That's all that really happens story wise. What made ff7 so interesting was the things you were able to find out about the main characters along the way. But plot wise the game was rather mediocre.
Of course, I could say that Lord of the Rings is about a guy finding out that his uncle's ring is the key to destroying the world, and that they spend the entire rest of the story trying to destroy it and getting in trouble along the way, since, y'know, that's what pretty much the entire plot is about.
Not that FF7 is anywhere near the literary quality of LotR, but your little synopsis pretty much ignored 90% of the game's story. Yes, they found out about Sephiroth, but that was nowhere near "all" they did.
If you hold video games at THAT level of importance, Miss Moon, you need to fix your priority list :p In order to get somewhere in life you do have to know how to read to some degree. I'm sure there are exceptions, but for the most part, reading is important. It's reading for leisure that isn't so important.
Video games, however, are NOT important whatsoever. It's not like you're going to be quizzed on how to beat Sephiroth on a make-or-break-your-grade final in college.
As for the video game forums: I think Rocket Edge made a good point about the recession. Because people generally can't afford the latest, we're stuck either playing games we already have or buying the cheap ones in the bargain bins for $10 for something to do. But, since people are out having to get second and third jobs just to pay the bills and buy groceries for the week, that $10 you may have paid without a second thought in better days is now going towards filling up your car at the pump. Plus, with everyone having to work so much, no one really has that much time for video games.
Right now, we are not in a "gamers' economy," we're in a "survival economy." Something's gotta give...it just happens to be video games that are giving. And there's really nothing wrong with that.
Once things improve, I'm sure video games will be hotter than ever :D I mean jeeze, we've got another Metal Gear Solid comin' out! :D
First off, watch the credits. There are a LOT of people working on a game. WRiters, graphic designers, concept art designers, directors, cooridinaters, the list goes on. Proof that they have profesional writers is in the damned credits.Quote:
Originally Posted by darkchrono.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoCracker....The people who make the graphics AREN"T the same people who make the story. There ARE professional writers writing the story lines for video games.Quote:
Originally Posted by darkchrono
And adult writing business? If you pay attention, a lot of these games have many deep and mature concepts. For example, even some of the older SNES games had amazingly developed stories. The Lufia Games, Breath of Fire II come to mind. Then theres Earthbound, and while the overall plot was somewhat basic, the individual stories that were found throughout may not have been that deep, but they were packed with humour and very well placed cultural references, not something some amateur writer came up with.
Then of course games like Xenosaga, which employed heavy christian Symbolism, unique characters and concepts. Lets not forget the political overtones that filled games like FF XII and Wild Arms 4.
There are a LOT of very well done stories in video games, they are simply forced to present them in a different fashion then in books. To say that video game writing is by default lower quality, with the exception of the story you so happen to like, is an insult to all those who put so much effort into their art.
Sorry but if you included some of the final fantasy stories and Wild Arms stories in that list then I'm not sure you have a real good grasp of what a good story is.
The final fantasy stories while they are fun to play they are very childish at the same time. Let's look at ff7 (which many people consider to have one of the best stories if not the best story within the entire series).
Try to sit down and think about what took place within ff7. When you think about it the only thing that happened was that Cloud met up with a group of rebels. The rebels tried to save the city by blowing up the reactor. Then the rebels find out about a person named Sephiroth and virtually spend the rest of the game finding things out about Sephiroth. That's it. That's all that really happens story wise. What made ff7 so interesting was the things you were able to find out about the main characters along the way. But plot wise the game was rather mediocre.
Basically most video game stories are all the same. Overyly young characters go out on an adventure and end up trying to save the world.
So please tell me where you hear that video games have professional writers writing for them. Because I have a very hard time believing that if they are really all that great at their art that they would seclude themselves in a genre full of people who can't appreciate how talented they really are.
And I never cared for FF VII's story, so I won't read why you thought it was bad and comment on it. But look at FF IX. There are a lot of really well done concepts in that game.
For example, every character was the personification of some form of Ideology. Virtue, Arrogance, lonliness, and various others. The main Villain, Kuja, is constantly strugglying against not only his original purpose, but has a deep seeting fear of death, and a world that will continue to move on even after he has gone.
You have Vivi, a character who is plagued by the fact he was created, and not a living creature who originally belonged in this world. Through the game, he manages to overcome his doubts and seek the truth, arriving at his ultimate conclustion.
And yes, a lot of Games have younger main characters, but a lot of them don't. PRototype, which has a decent story with some interesting twists, has a middle aged man as teh main character, (SPOILER)Who you learn that he isn't in fact the Alex MErcer you thought he was, but in fact he IS the Blacklight Virus that caused the problems to begin with.
Then there is Infamous, the story of an URban Explorer, caught in the center of a massive electrical blast of some kind, though somehow makes it out a live. I won't go into details even in a spoiler, just because it's so awesome you have to play it yourself. :p
So there a plenty of games that don't have young heroes and great story lines.
I don't think she was suggesting that people should be illiterate, or abandon their responsibilities :p I certainly would advocate neither. I think what she was getting at was more that if we're talking about important cultural experiences to have, that games are just as important in that as other stuff is. That's what I would say, at least. I think everyone should read The Road and Use of Weapons, for example. But I also think everyone should watch The Matrix and The West Wing, and I think everyone should play Shadow of the Colossus and Fallout. As to the general issue under discussion, I think you can extrapolate my position from this :pQuote:
Originally Posted by ~*~Celes~*~
Ummm...professional writers? Let's think on this for a second. Most novelist write novels as a second job, not a primary source of income. Unless you are a someone like Mary Higgens Clark, or Stephen King, etc...who have had so many successes that they can afford to use writing as a primary source of income. Second, depending on the content you don't even need much more than a High School diploma to write. Sure, many authors do have degrees but often times not even anywhere necessarily in anything related to what they are writing about (Terry Brooks was a lawyer before he was a novelist). I mean you can draw from those experiences but you don't need an English degree to be a novelist. I am not saying what they do is not hard work, because it is very hard and stressful, but I am just breaking into your idea of what a "professional writer" is. In other words, just because you don't publish novels doesn't mean you can't write.
Also, wait what? FF with childish plots? Maybe at the superficial level, but if you look there is plenty of deeper motifs. FF X deals with death and the corruption of the Yevon religon, FF XII is entirely political, FF T is political as well as deals with the question of religion. FF VI the freaking world is turn to ruins. I could list more.
Also, Xenosaga is pretty deep and Kingdom Hearts has its moments. Before you say something about KH and Disney, you should realize that Disney does deal with serious stuff (anyone watched the first 20 minutes of Up?) and often while proving entertainment for kids will also include references that an older audience would enjoy that kids would not necessarily get.
Perhaps my explanation was a bit bias but to be fair, the game presents the worst case scenario's for all three upfront and its only through interactions with the philosophies that you begin to see how they are good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyblade
To be honest, all three are merely the methods in which humanity travels through life to begin with. Yosuga is nature, Shijima is society and Mutsubi is asceticism. All three can be seen in a good light and its slowly shown to the player as you traverse the Vortex World. After awhile, its difficult to think of them as good or evil because how could one define a way of living as good or evil, while at the same time creating a virtual utopia that everyone can agree on? It throws away silly idealistic views of utopia and instaed focuses on the reality of how humans choose to live. Our world itself is a hodgepodge of all three philosophies, this game just breaks them down and shows you both the good and bad of it.
Despite their strict views, the Yosuga faction is rather honorable compared to the other two factions, and they are the most honest and friendly. Its philosphy actually allows the most freedom of the three and its not like you have to choose being a eletist who gets their kick killing people weaker than you (though it is an option). In the game itself, even if you choose not to side with them, they respect you and your wishes cause the faction recognizes your strength. You could be benevolent in such a world if you choose. The weak could choose to be strong or forced to obey the the new world order but they still have a choice in their actions. Yosuga leads to suffering but it offers absolute freedom. A world where the only rule is "might makes right" and your free to do as you please depending on your personal strength. In its lowest form it leads to persecution and genocide but it also allows us to find our own personal joys in life uninhibited by laws and social restrictions.
Shijima factions goal is peace and tranquility but their methods are close to a Police State. Yet, they battle for the benefit of all. Even if the world they want is devoid of individualism, its also void of any of the negative emotions that cause pain and suffering. Its almost described as a sense of contentment rooted in nihilism concerning the aspects that create our individuality. I know quite a few people who feel this philosophy is ideal in real life.
Mutsubi is isolationism but it also allows for despair and happiness, you just experieince it in your own private world. You are in a state of being where your ego is the alpha and omega of your own universe. The only thing your world lacks is the interactions with others and the benefits and pitfalls of such a relationship. I can't see how that can be considered evil nor can I see it being good.
All three have the possibility of bringing untld despair but they also hold the benfit of bringing untold good. Its just depends on the players personal values. You for instance see all three badly but I myself can see their benefits and I can see the appeal of the three. I can't really see any of them as being truly evil nor can I see them as truly good. They are just philosphies to live by and its up to us to decide whether they becomne one way or the other. This game just shows both sides of the picture rather than tell you be selfish or be a saint. Most games don't bother showing how being good could lead to the path of Yosuga or Shijima. How being the protector can eventually lead to you becoming self righteous and a moral dictator on the masses. Nor can being choosing evil in other games show how sometimes despite the terribly sacrifices, it could lead to the betterment of mankind. You could be killing innocents but its to protect the greater interest of the people, by conquering the world, you lead to it being united and no more wars. Most games don't bother with this but SMT3 did. When it comes down to it, all we have are ideals and philosphies but they in themselves are not inherently evil rather its our choices and use of them as justification that causes it.
The forum always seems to have busy and dry seasons. At least in the time period I've been here but apparently I wasn't here in the Golden Age so my view is a bit eskewed. The economy is down, its summer, so very little is going on in the gaming community outside of E3 and a few hidden gems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolivar
I do also feel that FF no longer has the extreme fanaticism it had 10 years ago. I'd argue the main reason why is because we have more options now than we did then. I still love FF but I need to go elsewhere to get my gaming fix cause the series just doesn't seem to do it for me anymore like it used to. I still love talking about the series and I still try to keep tabs on what SE is doing but I've become aware lately that I don't like the series as much as I used to and I blame it on being able to sample more of what RPGs can offer. In the past, Square was sorta the only game in town with a few notable exceptions; but now its competing with dozens of other great franchises, not to mention just the other genre of games out there nowadays.
It will ebb and flow, though I'm certain it will perk up once FFXIII hits shelves cause god knows the forums were busy around the time XII finally debuted.