Fang and Vanille *spoiler*

And I am offended when people ignore the beauty of a platonic relationship. There is definitely enough subtext to believe in a relationship between the two, but not at all definitive.

Why must two characters be "in love" to love each other? The only answer that makes complete sense from beginning to end of the game is that they are platonic. It's all about context.

Fang refers to Vanille as her "partner": Well, duh! What else would she call her when they are talking about how they were on a mission. Fang is very militant and plain spoken. When she says partner, she doesn't mean "playmate".

Boob grab: It's actually not even a grab, but a placement upon the chest. It's a hug, for goodness sake, and in a video game. Hand placement isn't necessarily going to be 100% accurate.

"I'll tear down the sky if it'll save her...": When one considers what all they have gone through together, being the last of their kind and of their likely non-incestuous family, it's not surprising Fang feels so strongly. I'd go through fire for my best friend, and my love for him is nothing more than platonic.

Basically, you can take it however you want, but the argument for a romance is much less founded than a friendship/familial relationship. /rant

I'd try finding a more reliable source than IGN...

And nothing in the game that I can recall made me think their relationship was anything beyond a friend, or at most, sisterly relationship.

Vanille touching Fang's boobs kind of ruins your theory though, seeing as well, if she were a guy, she wouldn't have had boobs.

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Originally Posted by Kiyenna

It offends me that people are so quick to say, "THERE'S NO WAY THEY'RE LESBIANS!" like it's so wrong. It's not. And if Fang was a guy, it would pretty much be a given that they were a couple.

And I don't touch other girls' boobs without sexual intentions. ;) I'm sorry.

"I'll tear down the sky if it'll save her. . ."

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It offends me that you're assuming everyone is saying they can't be lesbians because they think it's wrong.

Even if you don't grab other girls' breasts without it being sexual, it doesn't mean no other girls can!

I've grabbed other guys' asses on numerous occasions without having any sexual intents, and I don't think that's too different.

I certainly think that the dynamic between Fang and Vanille would be perceived much differently if Fang were male.

I cannot possibly hope to understand the type of bond that forms between two people who went through as much as Fang and Vanille with what we were given in the game. If the game elaborated more on the nature of their relationship and their interactions, then maybe I would understand it more. I am not sure if I would have been more quick to say that they were explicitly in a romantic relationship if Fang were male, either.

You're all missing the one thing that stuck me the most about Fang.

She is the definitive military soldier.
Male or female. She will do whatever is necessary to get her objective done. Vanille was her comrade in arms. Soldiers are willing to die for their fellow soldiers at any point. They protect each other, and they never leave a soldier behind. While, yes I did see them as friends, I saw Fang's care for Vanille as that of a solider loving and willing to die for a comrade in arms, and Vanille just being a sweet girl who loves and cares for those who care for her in return. Vanille cared extra for Fang, but she was sweet and kind and loving to the entire group. Fang however felt for most of the game that these new L'cie had a different goal than her and Vanille. (SPOILER)Even at the Final Boss she was willing to do what she thought her mission was despite everyone else. She was resistant to all of them, while Vanille was not. They were not her allies, they were not her comrades in arms... until of course after everything.

And that would work whether Fang was a guy or a girl.

THE JACKEL

I agree that we don't have enough information to truly tell what their relationship is. Most likely they are not blood sisters since they come from different clans (Dia and Yun). I can see they have at least a big sister-little sister interaction though. Oerba was a communal style society so it's likely they thought of themselves as one large family.

There's no evidence either way but the fact that this debate comes up so many times here and other FF forums certainly seems to indicate that one way or another a "lovers" message came across to many people.

Personally I think they are. There's no single time when there's concrete court-submissible evidence but there seems to be a lot of subtle imagery that seems to suggest it's that way.
Sometimes sexual intimacy is just not sledgehammered. Recently I've been rewatching DS9 and a good example of this approach was one-to-one links between Changelings, beings that revert to a gelatenous state that can merge. There was enough subtle suggestion to think "hmm I wonder if that's a sort of sexual experience for them, it looks like it" but it wasn't stated as fact (at least not until several episodes later when it's stated that 1-to-1 links are indeed "like that").

I'd have to agree that if it was a guy (interesting that she was originally supposed to be) there'd be much less questioning of it and more talk of Fang/Vanille/Hope love triangles and such. I doubt many people are being genuinely bigoted; differing sexuality is pretty much accepted these days. I think it's just not yet reached a stage where we instinctively recognise a same sex relationship unless there's "proof" (probably tongue related)

It would've been braver for the creators to make her a female from the beginning and explicitly stated as in a relationship, but subtlety isn't a bad thing - it was certainly far better handled than the cringe inducing portrayal of homosexuality in FF7, IMHO.

I figured they were in a more than platonic relationship pretty soon after they introduced the two characters. The fact that Fang was originally a guy made a lot of sense too.

I dunno, I think it's silly to automatically assume that they were ONLY platonic simply because there was no overt evidence that proves otherwise. I mean, just as easily I could say that they were a lesbian couple, and I would need concrete proof that they were actually heterosexual.

For me, it just was very evident that they loved each other as more than just friends or as sisters. No shocking revelation, no "ah ha!" moment. It's just how I viewed their relationship almost straight away.

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Originally Posted by ljkkjlcm9

You're all missing the one thing that stuck me the most about Fang.

She is the definitive military soldier.
Male or female. She will do whatever is necessary to get her objective done. Vanille was her comrade in arms. Soldiers are willing to die for their fellow soldiers at any point. They protect each other, and they never leave a soldier behind. While, yes I did see them as friends, I saw Fang's care for Vanille as that of a solider loving and willing to die for a comrade in arms, and Vanille just being a sweet girl who loves and cares for those who care for her in return. Vanille cared extra for Fang, but she was sweet and kind and loving to the entire group. Fang however felt for most of the game that these new L'cie had a different goal than her and Vanille. (SPOILER)Even at the Final Boss she was willing to do what she thought her mission was despite everyone else. She was resistant to all of them, while Vanille was not. They were not her allies, they were not her comrades in arms... until of course after everything.

And that would work whether Fang was a guy or a girl.

THE JACKEL

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I disagree. She lacked the discipline and teamwork of an ideal soldier.

Her own mission was void from the beginning, with her brand frozen. And her role in the rest of the game was not to complete any particular objective, not even to help her friends with theirs, but simply to protect them, however she could, whether they wanted it or not. She took up arms against them more than once.

She was also very unused to working as a team. The rest of the group functioned as a cohesive unit (apart from Hope's early insistence on backstabbing), but Fang was always very quick to leave her support behind and take the entire burden on herself, needlessly, whether she could handle it or not.


Anyway, back on topic. I had thought that the idea of Fang and Vanille being in a relationship was a fairly widespread one, and certainly not one that the majority of fans shouted down as an impossiblity. They may not all suscribe to the idea themselves, but almost every fan I've talked to has agreed to the possiblity.

If Fang was originally male who was attracted to Vanille (which I'm not too sure if it's true or not), it doesn't mean that they are lesbians. I mean, that's just lazy writing imo. If they are gonna change a character, then they obviously will change the scenario. Serapy made it seem like everything else in the game was the same when Fang was a man (ie the relationships between other characters). The article said that Fang became female at the expense of Lighning's sexiness. I mean the relationship dynamics would probably have been vastly different. Like a male Fang would act more of a big brother type to Vanille, so the way they interacted with each other might have been different (there might have been less physical contact with each other). And the term partner does not hint at lesbianism. It probably means they have been through a lot together and stuff. I see Fang as a kind of big sister to Vanille.

And Kiyenna, we don't think lebianism is wrong, we just don't believe that they are lesbians. As far as I'm aware, nobody seemed homophobic on this subject. So don't be too prepared to think the worst of people's character.

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Originally Posted by Skyblade

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Originally Posted by ljkkjlcm9

You're all missing the one thing that stuck me the most about Fang.

She is the definitive military soldier.
Male or female. She will do whatever is necessary to get her objective done. Vanille was her comrade in arms. Soldiers are willing to die for their fellow soldiers at any point. They protect each other, and they never leave a soldier behind. While, yes I did see them as friends, I saw Fang's care for Vanille as that of a solider loving and willing to die for a comrade in arms, and Vanille just being a sweet girl who loves and cares for those who care for her in return. Vanille cared extra for Fang, but she was sweet and kind and loving to the entire group. Fang however felt for most of the game that these new L'cie had a different goal than her and Vanille. (SPOILER)Even at the Final Boss she was willing to do what she thought her mission was despite everyone else. She was resistant to all of them, while Vanille was not. They were not her allies, they were not her comrades in arms... until of course after everything.

And that would work whether Fang was a guy or a girl.

THE JACKEL

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I disagree. She lacked the discipline and teamwork of an ideal soldier.

Her own mission was void from the beginning, with her brand frozen. And her role in the rest of the game was not to complete any particular objective, not even to help her friends with theirs, but simply to protect them, however she could, whether they wanted it or not. She took up arms against them more than once.

She was also very unused to working as a team. The rest of the group functioned as a cohesive unit (apart from Hope's early insistence on backstabbing), but Fang was always very quick to leave her support behind and take the entire burden on herself, needlessly, whether she could handle it or not.

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As I said, the only person she saw as her comrade, was Vanille. The rest of the group were outsiders and were only getting in the way of her completing her mission. She used them as necessary, but was willing to ignore them anytime they got on her way.

THE JACKEL

Hah. Wow, late.

I've played this game more than once thoroughly (most will chime in and claim they have, too.) And my POV doesn't change - I do believe there's more than some run of the mill platonic relationship between Vanille and Fang. By that I mean more than 'Old Yeller saves Travis because he loves him' scenario. Am I looking too deep, no. You could compare it to the way Snow is with Serah. Oh, okay, sure, they're to be married but back to the old saying: Fang was once a man. Hmm .. How does this change the story? I don't know. To me it's still the same as what it was meant to be, minus some transgendered pixels. Adding in there is the scene where Fang calls Vanille her partner. Baww, there's many ways to interpret this, but in this case, I am using it to back up my side.

MY point I'm getting across here is Snow is all over for defending Serah because he loves her, both in a, "I will take care of you for ever." Way, and, "I love you, let's marry and have babies." Way. Fang, I'm sure would love Vanille in both ways if possible to conceive at this point. Anyway, of course, there will always be an overwhelming mass of left-wing supremacists who could have (insert x amount) of information and evidence in front of them and who would still disagree. Much like a criminal defense attorney, but hey. This isn't court. Until games can have full on homosexual relationships, there will be feuds. .. Heh, maybe even then, let's not rule anything out, people are hardheaded.

All in all, who cares? This thread is dead anyway. I just needed to 'Insert coin'.

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Originally Posted by Mirage

I've grabbed other guys' asses on numerous occasions without having any sexual intents, and I don't think that's too different.

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stay away from me, there is a difference between a slap and grabbing. the later is.... really creepy, and downright gay really.