I Don't Get the Complaints around XIII

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Originally Posted by Karifean

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

Story is rather subjective, but this is a GAME and thus it needs gameplay and that is where a lot of hate is coming from. Games aren't meant to be visual novels, they are supposed to be GAMES primarily.

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I'm surprised you're writing this after all your griping in the FF XII thread.

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XII had lack lustre gameplay too, gambits are a step behind what XIII did, basically AI characters.

XII had a pitiful gameplay overall but it wasn't as bad as XIII which takes useless to a whole new meaning. Unfortunately XII's story/Character development was ridiculously underdeveloped. XIII decided to go the other way with overboard graphic fests and even less gameplay so story was even more in your face.

Basically both games suck in their own way and both got the balance completely wrong. I don't see that as a contradiction because....it isn't.

Jacob_Khozaim's reader review of Final Fantasy XII for PlayStation 2

There is a chap who saw it coming...

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

Story is rather subjective, but this is a GAME and thus it needs gameplay and that is where a lot of hate is coming from. Games aren't meant to be visual novels, they are supposed to be GAMES primarily.

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Actually many would consider visual novels to be a kind of game, even though the only player input is branching paths and dialogue trees. But I get that wasn't your point.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

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Originally Posted by Karifean

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

Story is rather subjective, but this is a GAME and thus it needs gameplay and that is where a lot of hate is coming from. Games aren't meant to be visual novels, they are supposed to be GAMES primarily.

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I'm surprised you're writing this after all your griping in the FF XII thread.

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XII had lack lustre gameplay too, gambits are a step behind what XIII did, basically AI characters.

XII had a pitiful gameplay overall but it wasn't as bad as XIII which takes useless to a whole new meaning. Unfortunately XII's story/Character development was ridiculously underdeveloped. XIII decided to go the other way with overboard graphic fests and even less gameplay so story was even more in your face.

Basically both games suck in their own way and both got the balance completely wrong. I don't see that as a contradiction because....it isn't.

Jacob_Khozaim's reader review of Final Fantasy XII for PlayStation 2

There is a chap who saw it coming...

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Personally i'd define contradiction by what you just said.

You made a competetive arguement for how the story is the most important part of a game and how attachment to the characters give the story depth and meaning. But you also said this -

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

Story is not just a personal opinion

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And now you are saying this -

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

Story is rather subjective

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So either the story is defined by the players opinion of it, or it's not.

Now excuse me while i go to the FFXII forum to tear apart your final arguements on the subject ;)

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

XII had lack lustre gameplay too, gambits are a step behind what XIII did, basically AI characters.

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The gambit system in XII gave you complete control over all three characters on the screen. You are able to automate as much of the actions of the characters you want; heck you can even completely shut off the gambits and control all three manually. If your characters were on auto pilot through out the whole game, than that's your fault, not the game's.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

XII had a pitiful gameplay overall

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Completely subjective, I personally thought it had the best gameplay the series has yet to see (haven't played XIII yet), but that's just my opinion. To each their own, or as my old man likes to say, different strokes for different folks.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

Unfortunately XII's story/Character development was ridiculously underdeveloped.

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XII's story was very well developed; for a story that is so plot driven I'm surprised that people actually miss it. Granted it's a very straight forward story with very little twists and turns; it's still very much present in the game, and fairly well written if I don't say so myself.

As for the character's, again the story is more plot driven than your average FF game, so of course character development isn't going to be as noticable. However, just because character development is played down a bit doesn't mean it's not there. The characters do develop and change, it's just done much subtle than in previous FFs.

Wow, that's the first time I've ever had seperate quotes on my response, I'm surprised I didn't goober that up.

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Originally Posted by Shin Gouken

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

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Originally Posted by Karifean

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

Story is rather subjective, but this is a GAME and thus it needs gameplay and that is where a lot of hate is coming from. Games aren't meant to be visual novels, they are supposed to be GAMES primarily.

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I'm surprised you're writing this after all your griping in the FF XII thread.

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XII had lack lustre gameplay too, gambits are a step behind what XIII did, basically AI characters.

XII had a pitiful gameplay overall but it wasn't as bad as XIII which takes useless to a whole new meaning. Unfortunately XII's story/Character development was ridiculously underdeveloped. XIII decided to go the other way with overboard graphic fests and even less gameplay so story was even more in your face.

Basically both games suck in their own way and both got the balance completely wrong. I don't see that as a contradiction because....it isn't.

Jacob_Khozaim's reader review of Final Fantasy XII for PlayStation 2

There is a chap who saw it coming...

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Personally i'd define contradiction by what you just said.

You made a competetive arguement for how the story is the most important part of a game and how attachment to the characters give the story depth and meaning. But you also said this -

Quote:

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

Story is not just a personal opinion

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And now you are saying this -

Quote:

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

Story is rather subjective

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So either the story is defined by the players opinion of it, or it's not.

Now excuse me while i go to the FFXII forum to tear apart your final arguements on the subject ;)

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but you're welcome to keep trying..

I see story as objective....sort of like light.....an observer can see it and take measurements and come to a conclusion.

I feel that is why Black Isle was so successful. Sadly they ran into financial problems and closed.

Black Isle Studios - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But the stories in the games they developed...if you take a look at them...are acclaimed by most pc rpg fans.
Other things in rpgs are subjective though...and a matter of preference.
The towns, npcs, and minigames, chests and their contents, linearity and other issues we have been debating.:roll2

I didn't think the story of FFXII was well developed at all..a lot of that game was incomplete due to Matsuno's abrupt departure and the failure by his replacement to give the game a good proofread.

shrugs.

As for FFXIII I have read reviews and watched videos and it seems to be flawed as well and I find that a shame.:mad:

oh well..on to Versus...:roll2

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Originally Posted by ANGRYWOLF

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Originally Posted by Shin Gouken

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

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Originally Posted by Karifean

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

Story is rather subjective, but this is a GAME and thus it needs gameplay and that is where a lot of hate is coming from. Games aren't meant to be visual novels, they are supposed to be GAMES primarily.

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I'm surprised you're writing this after all your griping in the FF XII thread.

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XII had lack lustre gameplay too, gambits are a step behind what XIII did, basically AI characters.

XII had a pitiful gameplay overall but it wasn't as bad as XIII which takes useless to a whole new meaning. Unfortunately XII's story/Character development was ridiculously underdeveloped. XIII decided to go the other way with overboard graphic fests and even less gameplay so story was even more in your face.

Basically both games suck in their own way and both got the balance completely wrong. I don't see that as a contradiction because....it isn't.

Jacob_Khozaim's reader review of Final Fantasy XII for PlayStation 2

There is a chap who saw it coming...

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Personally i'd define contradiction by what you just said.

You made a competetive arguement for how the story is the most important part of a game and how attachment to the characters give the story depth and meaning. But you also said this -

Quote:

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

Story is not just a personal opinion

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And now you are saying this -

Quote:

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

Story is rather subjective

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So either the story is defined by the players opinion of it, or it's not.

Now excuse me while i go to the FFXII forum to tear apart your final arguements on the subject ;)

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but you're welcome to keep trying..

I see story as objective....sort of like light.....an observer can see it and take measurements and come to a conclusion.

I feel that is why Black Isle was so successful. Sadly they ran into financial problems and closed.

Black Isle Studios - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But the stories in the games they developed...if you take a look at them...are acclaimed by most pc rpg fans.
Other things in rpgs are subjective though...and a matter of preference.
The towns, npcs, and minigames, chests and their contents, linearity and other issues we have been debating.:roll2

I didn't think the story of FFXII was well developed at all..a lot of that game was incomplete due to Matsuno's abrupt departure and the failure by his replacement to give the game a good proofread.

shrugs.

As for FFXIII I have read reviews and watched videos and it seems to be flawed as well and I find that a shame.:mad:

oh well..on to Versus...:roll2

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I didn't come up short at all. In fact you're borrowing my arguement. I stated (and don't think i could have been clearer) that everything boils down to opinion and preference. And opinions shouldn't be stated as fact, which pretty much made everything seifer said redundent because of the claims he was making.

I see you as positive to Seifer's negative...

I see you as partisan for the game as seifer is negative towards it.
Opposites.

shrugs.

Opinions stated as facts ?
I don't see you as being any different from seifer.You might be less dogmatic in your approach but that's about it.

It is hard to come to a consensus.

Some people like the game, always will and some don't and always will.

maybe compare and contrast would be better.

Compare and contrast FFXIII to :

FFVI

FFVII

FF Tactics

Those 3 are generally considered by most fans the best FF games.Some may add FFIV or FFVIII or FFX into the mix but most include those 3 games.

Is FFXIII superior in any way to those 3 games, excluding the technology of graphics ?

Better in any other way ?

Let me know if you think it is and explain why if you would like.

;)

I think games should be judged on their own merits. :D

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Originally Posted by ANGRYWOLF

I see you as positive to Seifer's negative...

I see you as partisan for the game as seifer is negative towards it.
Opposites.

shrugs.

Opinions stated as facts ?
I don't see you as being any different from seifer.You might be less dogmatic in your approach but that's about it.

It is hard to come to a consensus.

Some people like the game, always will and some don't and always will.

maybe compare and contrast would be better.

Compare and contrast FFXIII to :

FFVI

FFVII

FF Tactics

Those 3 are generally considered by most fans the best FF games.Some may add FFIV or FFVIII or FFX into the mix but most include those 3 games.

Is FFXIII superior in any way to those 3 games, excluding the technology of graphics ?

Better in any other way ?

Let me know if you think it is and explain why if you would like.

;)

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Ive always been very clear in any arguement that iv put forward that what i'm stating is opinion. Where Sefier will clearly state something like "Noone cares about X character".

You are right that i am the positive to his negative, but i'm not claiming the game to be great, just stating that it has reason to be enjoyed, where he will claim that the game is awful and that his opinion is rule.

Ive never played tactics and my opinions of VI and VII aren't particularly great. I fear sparking a huge debate if i share any comments regarding them :p

It is quite simple really:

XII had poor story telling/quantity and bad pacing coupled with lack lustre gameplay.

XIII had a severely bloated story coupled with virtually no gameplay.

Story is subjective if there is actually story there.

in XII's case it isn't simply a matter of personal taste because there are glaring faults with how much it is lacking and bad pacing, which are not by themselves totally criticisms of the actual quality but rather its presentation, depth and quantity. Arguments can be made that XII was so lacking in this that it's story fell short as a result and I agree with that.

In XIII's case no one can argue with the quantity (there was lots of it story wise). So I can't apply the same arguments to XII and XIII as they differ somewhat but are both utterly flawed. And as I haven't seen enough of XIII's story, I cannot make any criticism of its quality at this time.

The one thing they BOTH made grievous errors in was balance. XIII has too much story at the expense of gameplay, XII has flawed gameplay but much more than XIII, except the dialogue was bare bones and pacing dire.

VII, VIII, IX and X got the balance more or less correct for an modern RPG and certainly did a better job than XII and XIII at pleasing the whole spectrum of fan and not just the closed minded tunnel visions who would be happy with anything as long as it has a bit of flash, a scantily clad female and Final Fantasy written on the case..

rotfl...

Shrugs....

I am sure there are fans of even the worst video game ever made..who will claim those games have a reason to be enjoyed...shin so that argument doesn't hold water imo...

I believe comparing and contrasting is a good way to measure anything...and when you have a series of games..whether it be FF, Grandia, Suikoden, Persona, etc etc..comparing the last game to the earlier games in the series is a valid way of determining how the game measures up to previous games in the series.

If anyone cares to make the claim that FFXIII is better than previous FF games, if you exclude the technical graphics are superior on the PS3 ..then feel free to make that claim.

:D

I used to try cotton wool wrapping everything and saying things nicer but that doesn't work, it doesn't go into peoples brains and since no one changes their opinion, no matter how barmy, I don't see the fault in simply saying it as I see it.

I long given up with putting on a fake smile for my opinions :) I could sit here and tell you how its all opinion and how it doesn't matter to me and how we can all agree to disagree and all those other nice phrases but I would jut be lying.

And let's get it straight, we are arguing about games here, not life and death decisions.

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Originally Posted by ANGRYWOLF

Compare and contrast FFXIII to :

FFVI
FFVII
FF Tactics

Those 3 are generally considered by most fans the best FF games.Some may add FFIV or FFVIII or FFX into the mix but most include those 3 games.

Is FFXIII superior in any way to those 3 games, excluding the technology of graphics ?

Better in any other way ?

Let me know if you think it is and explain why if you would like.

;)

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It should be noted that if you compare every video game to other video games, and only enjoy the ones that compare favourably, then you will end up disappointed far more often than not as you can only have one game which you consider better than the rest. I prefer to enjoy each game I play for it's own story, much like I am able to enjoy each comedian for his own jokes regardless of whether they're better than another comedian's jokes or not. If I'm still laughing at the jokes, even if they aren't my favourites, what's the problem?

For this reason, I prefer not to compare games while playing them. I'll compare them when I'm done with them, and I don't consider XIII to be better than, say, VII, but that doesn't mean I don't consider it a good game - I still enjoyed it, therefore I consider it a good game.

Some people will look for reasons to grumble, some people will look for reasons to smile. I prefer to smile. :) I'm glad that there are people out there doing the grumbling as they make me feel a bit better about my perception of things. I feel lucky that I can be happy about things that make others sad, as it means I'm going to be a happier person than them in such cases, which can only be a good thing.

I pay money so I can enjoy a game, not so I can play the best game ever. If the latter thing happens, all the better, but one should always seek happiness wherever possible.

You see I really don't understand that viewpoint.

If we are buying Final Fantasy, and most of us are doing so because we liked IV,V,VI,VII,VIII, IX,X or even god help you, XII...

How can it be wrong to compare XIII or other FF games to the ones you liked earlier in the series?

And why is it so wrong to get angry when the games today are lacking in all but graphics compared to games that are 10 years old?

This is a brand, and as such you buy the next in the series with an expectation and justified demand that the large amount of money you are paying will result in a quality game up to the standard of previous titles.

I can't quite understand how this can be wrong. Why should I compare XIII to Mario Kart 64 or Mario RPG or any other game?

It is completely fair to compare the games to previous titles in the same series, and if those games aren't as good or have glaring errors, that is the fault of the games company, not us.

Of course taking this approach is going to yield disappointment but its an entirely justified and logical approach to comparing these games.

I don't buy FF games for my health, I buy them because I liked VI-X and I expect that paying upwards of 40 UK pounds I am getting a proper FF GAME of the ilk that made me like the series in the first place.

X-2, XII, XIII and all these spin offs have stuck 2 fingers up at me and other fans like me, and said "well, we are changing what you loved about FF but we don't care coz we are goin' for profitz"

I was angry with X-2 after being duped, I was angry at XII for being duped, and I am angry at XIII because it is still taking the piss, even though I wasn't going to be made a fool of a 3rd time or ever again and this series, which I consider one of the greatest ever made, is being dumbed down and destroyed.

The general attitude now is that they can do as they please and will still get millions of sales and you know the sad thing? They are right!

As I've said, I don't expect any of the other games to compare to my favourite (VII) - even X and VIII for me were not as good. But I loved VIII. Didn't care much for X, but a lot of people loved it, too. So you can compare all the games you love with each other and you'll always have a favourite, but why should that make all the othe games bad? What if your favourite is an old game? Does that mean every game made ever since is bad? It doesn't for me.

You say "they can do as they please and will still get millions of sales" - no, if they created a game that was universally agreed to be bad then I'm sure they would suffer for it. But just because you dislike everything about the game doesn't mean that everyone does. I think it was a good game, enjoyable and with a lot of things to discuss which is also something I like about a good game - that it has so much background you can speculate over.

Just because a game is "not as good" does not mean it is "bad". Can you be disappointed if you found it to be bad? Absolutely. Can you even be disappointed if you found it to be not half the game that your favourite was? Absolutely. But if you still enjoyed it all the same, should you call it a bad game? No. If you enjoy something which is designed to be enjoyed then they have succeeded in making a good video game. Is it good enough to be considered a Final Fantasy? I don't think of things that way. Just because a game is good doesn't mean it has to have a certain name, and just because a game has a certain name does not mean it has to be good. Take a look at Resident Evil, for example. RE4 was universally acclaimed as a really good game, but despite that I was disappointed because for me, it was not in line with the previous installments. Where were the fixed cameras? The suspense? No, I believe they changed it to an FPS, which is not a big win for me. But it was still, from what I understand, a good game. It still carried the RE name and was part of the main series. But the general idea for me is that it was a disappointing game from my perspective, one that did not become what I wanted, but not a bad game overall because clearly many, many people loved it.

The name just means you can expect a couple of things. The first is that it will be a JRPG, the second that it will feature chocobos (and those weren't even featured in FF1). Everything else will change from game to game.

Would I like a FFVII styled game? Yes. Do I think it will happen? No. Do I think this means that they're selling out and all their games will be bad? No. Doees this mean I expect to enjoy every game? NO. I hope to. If I don't, so be it. But when I disliked FFX you didn't see me slamming SE as selling out or anything. I just hoped the next would be better and hey, at least others enjoyed it. Good game, I hear.

EDIT: While I won't deny that enjoying older FF games is one of the reasons I buy new FF's, to say it is THE reason I buy Final Fantasy games would be a lie. I buy them because I like JRPGs. I also have various other JRPGs which I've either liked or disliked from other series. When a mainstream JRPG comes out, I look for it and if I have the cash then I buy it and play it. I don't judge it on name alone. However, my adoration for chocobos and most of the FF series does obviously add encouragement for those specific titles. If I bought games based on previous installments though then I would be naive (because staff change and therefore games differ) and confused (because how am I meant to buy based on a series when my favourite JRPG is an FF and one of my least favourite JRPG's is also an FF?).