What do you want out of an RPG protagonist?

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Originally Posted by Skyblade

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Originally Posted by The White Wizard of Fynn

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Originally Posted by StarCross1988

The biggest turnoff for me is if they really have nothing to do with the main plot (looking at you Vaan). I do like blank slates probably more, mainly because each time you run through the game it can be a different experience.

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Arguably, Vaan is not the main protagonist. And he has tons to do with the main plot, which I have argued on occasion to the point of being tired with it now :stare:

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In that he is present for every major event? Yes, I suppose that's true. However, he contributes to almost none of them. Oh, I guess without him, the "I'm Captain Basch" scene wouldn't have happened. So he's necessary for at least one event.

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Don't you start with me today, Sky :stare:

I like playing good guys. If you look at the Golden Sun games, you spend the entire first game chasing after Saturos and Menardi and fixing everything they broke. The Altin Mines, the trees in Kolima, Silk Road, etcetera. Then, in The Lost Age, you play as Felix. And you spend the entire game breaking stuff and taking people's things. You steal the Great Gabomba's magic, you try to steal the boat... You only rarely help people out (yay for Izumo). Isaac is just a better person than Felix.

He also has a better battle theme, which is also important.

NOT silent, for the love of all things good. You can't be involved in the plot if you're not saying anything.

Also, maturity is nice.

In other words, I want Kaim Argonar.

It depends on the type of game. I think the only type of hero I can't really stand is the type that does good for the sake of doing good. They just always come off flat to me and unrealistic, I need a bit more conflict with the character and its hard to make them interesting if they are just being self-righteous all the time. It's why I don't really like good/evil choice systems cause they lack a good middle ground and instead I'm either a Silver Age super hero or some stereotypical super nazi with no redeeming quality.

You can have conflict while "doing good for the sake of doing good". Case in point: Marche Radiuju. He spends the entire game just wanting to do what's right. Yet he's constantly conflicted because he just wants to stay in Ivalice (let's face it: who wouldn't). He's also thrown into conflict with his friends because they want to stay as well. Personal and interpersonal conflict. All because Marche wants to do what's right for no other reason than that it is right.

Done properly, this is almost always the case. It always leads to inner conflict, because what is right is rarely what is pleasant or pleasurable. Desire conflicts with morality. For a hero, morality wins that battle. For villains, desire triumphs (or they're just insane, but that's less fun).

I think Wolf meant cases where it is done mindlessly, which is lost of such cases. Can't really have a shallow character with Matsuno :exdee:

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Originally Posted by Skyblade

You can have conflict while "doing good for the sake of doing good". Case in point: Marche Radiuju. He spends the entire game just wanting to do what's right. Yet he's constantly conflicted because he just wants to stay in Ivalice (let's face it: who wouldn't). He's also thrown into conflict with his friends because they want to stay as well. Personal and interpersonal conflict. All because Marche wants to do what's right for no other reason than that it is right.

Done properly, this is almost always the case. It always leads to inner conflict, because what is right is rarely what is pleasant or pleasurable. Desire conflicts with morality. For a hero, morality wins that battle. For villains, desire triumphs (or they're just insane, but that's less fun).

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I don't interpret Marche's actions as "doing good for the sake of good" he does good cause he understands that Dream Ivalice is harmful to his friends, the whole point of the Lotus Earter Machine Trope/Platonic Cave allegory is that is it better to face the harsh reality than to live in an illusionary one that stunts the soul and minds ability to grow. The whole cast was running away from their problems and selfishly perpetuating a fake existence at the cost of others (the real people of St. Ivalice) from their lives to fulfill their own selfish needs. Marche is propelled to take action to save his friends from themselves... and a living magical codex.

The character I am actually thinking of is Isaac from Golden Sun because it is him and his parties goody-two-shoe personality that kind of killed the game for me. Dragon Quest has a similar problem but luckily the whole cast tend to lack any real characterization to make it easier to ignore it most of the time.

I need characters that have needs and desires because that is human. Desire is not a trait of villainy it is a trait of humanity itself which is why villains often tend to be more complex and interesting than valiant heroes cause the storybook heroes lacks the traits that allow me to relate to them. I'm not going to save the world for the sake of it, maybe I don't give a damn about it. I'm an adherent to psychological egoism so I can't put much stock in altruism of any kind; so it is up to the writer to explain to me why my characters would care to save the world. I often find that heroes save the world more for selfish reasons, with the actual world-saving part being just a nice bonus to save their friends, get revenge, or make their desires into reality.

To quote a more complex hero.

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Originally Posted by Squall Leonhart

Right and wrong are not what separate us and our enemies. It's our different standpoints, our perspectives that separate us. Both sides blame one another. There's no good or bad side. Just two sides holding different views.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

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Originally Posted by Skyblade

You can have conflict while "doing good for the sake of doing good". Case in point: Marche Radiuju. He spends the entire game just wanting to do what's right. Yet he's constantly conflicted because he just wants to stay in Ivalice (let's face it: who wouldn't). He's also thrown into conflict with his friends because they want to stay as well. Personal and interpersonal conflict. All because Marche wants to do what's right for no other reason than that it is right.

Done properly, this is almost always the case. It always leads to inner conflict, because what is right is rarely what is pleasant or pleasurable. Desire conflicts with morality. For a hero, morality wins that battle. For villains, desire triumphs (or they're just insane, but that's less fun).

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I don't interpret Marche's actions as "doing good for the sake of good" he does good cause he understands that Dream Ivalice is harmful to his friends, the whole point of the Lotus Earter Machine Trope/Platonic Cave allegory is that is it better to face the harsh reality than to live in an illusionary one that stunts the soul and minds ability to grow. The whole cast was running away from their problems and selfishly perpetuating a fake existence at the cost of others (the real people of St. Ivalice) from their lives to fulfill their own selfish needs. Marche is propelled to take action to save his friends from themselves... and a living magical codex.

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What danger are they in? Do you think Marche could explain what was wrong with staying in Ivalice to any of them? Heck, is there anything wrong with staying in Ivalice for anyone but Mewt? It's not exactly refusing to face reality when reality itself has been completely rewritten.

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The character I am actually thinking of is Isaac from Golden Sun because it is him and his parties goody-two-shoe personality that kind of killed the game for me. Dragon Quest has a similar problem but luckily the whole cast tend to lack any real characterization to make it easier to ignore it most of the time.

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Yes, heaven forbid we have a character in a game who isn't just an asshole for the sake of being an asshole.

Is there anything wrong with wanting to help people out? With attempting to do a little more than just laugh at the misfortune of others as you walk by? With carrying power far beyond that of 99% of the world's population and actually suint that power to make a difference where you can?

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I need characters that have needs and desires because that is human. Desire is not a trait of villainy it is a trait of humanity itself which is why villains often tend to be more complex and interesting than valiant heroes cause the storybook heroes lacks the traits that allow me to relate to them. I'm not going to save the world for the sake of it, maybe I don't give a damn about it. I'm an adherent to psychological egoism so I can't put much stock in altruism of any kind; so it is up to the writer to explain to me why my characters would care to save the world. I often find that heroes save the world more for selfish reasons, with the actual world-saving part being just a nice bonus to save their friends, get revenge, or make their desires into reality.

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So just because you are a complete ass who feels no compassion for others and no reason to help when you can, that makes those who do bad characters? I'm apparently not human because I enjoy helping people. I go out of my way to assist those in trouble, to carry burdens, help people get around, etcetera. And if I was one of only dozens of people in the world capable of using magic, I'd do a hell of a lot more.

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To quote a more complex hero.

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Originally Posted by Squall Leonhart

Right and wrong are not what separate us and our enemies. It's our different standpoints, our perspectives that separate us. Both sides blame one another. There's no good or bad side. Just two sides holding different views.

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Or we could just say that there is right and wrong, but we live in a morally bankrupt society that teaches people that there are no morals and anything is ok as long as it makes you feel good.

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Originally Posted by Skyblade

What danger are they in? Do you think Marche could explain what was wrong with staying in Ivalice to any of them? Heck, is there anything wrong with staying in Ivalice for anyone but Mewt? It's not exactly refusing to face reality when reality itself has been completely rewritten.

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They are running away from their problems, isn't that trouble enough, how can they ever grow strong in character if when life makes things difficult for them they simply choose the easiest option to get out of it that requires some outside force to help them. You can't get anywhere in life if you choose a world where you can't face your problem. Ivalice isn't just Mewt's dream to run away it's everyones. Not to mention that they gain their goals by wiping out the lives of people were living in their home town, or brainwashing parental figures to fit your ideals for them cause you are too embarrassed to face them or accept them. I mean everyone but Marche is actually being selfish here since they would rather rewrite reality to be their paradise rather than face their lives. We all have issues in our lives that we don't want to deal with but growing up is about facing those problems, picking ourselves up when we fail, and shouldering on in good or bad. It is a much more fulfilling existence than hedonism. The whole point of the story is understanding this.

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Yes, heaven forbid we have a character in a game who isn't just an asshole for the sake of being an asshole.

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He's boring and prediuctable. I felt like I was watching a Saturday moning cartoon show which have those cheesy moral lesson scenes at the end. Anytime something was in trouble he would sidestep his quest to help out. The best part about the game was discovering that he doomed the world in the end because he never stopped to really ask anyone about the history of Alchemy and instead just did as he was told.

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Is there anything wrong with wanting to help people out? With attempting to do a little more than just laugh at the misfortune of others as you walk by? With carrying power far beyond that of 99% of the world's population and actually suint that power to make a difference where you can?

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There is nothing wrong with being good, I just prefer characterization with it. Marche does what he must because he is trying to save his home and his friends, Ramza fights the cause of the war because he witnesses first hand its horrors in the early chapters. The main characters of all the Suikoden games are inspired to save their homes because of loss, national pride, or to end suffering they have seen first hand.

Isaac? Is a nice kid who was in the wrong place, gets orderd to save the world and does it. Where his raison d'etre? To give this a Final Fantasy spin, Cecil vs. Bartz, Bartz goes along with saving the world because he's a nice guy who was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and ultimately resigns himself to destiny due to a late game plot revelation that his father was a Dawn Warrior. His reasoning is shallow. Cecil did some bad things and it was his cowardice and in ability to stand up to his beliefs that led to suffering. He is compelled to do good because he no longer wants to be the man he was yesterday. His desire is manifested with his class change to Paladin and even though he fails he always picks himself back up and goes on. It is far more inspiring than Bartz. We strive to be Bartz but we all know we're more like Cecil, we all have a moment in our lives where we faltered to weakness instead of taking the high road.

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So just because you are a complete ass who feels no compassion for others and no reason to help when you can, that makes those who do bad characters? I'm apparently not human because I enjoy helping people. I go out of my way to assist those in trouble, to carry burdens, help people get around, etcetera. And if I was one of only dozens of people in the world capable of using magic, I'd do a hell of a lot more.

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That's a little uncalled for, you fail to try and understand my perspective. I simply need to understand where the character is coming from. Doing good for selfish reasons is not inherently wrong, maybe people do good because we enjoy it and it makes us feel good which itself is enough of a reason. Selfishness is not a bad trait in small doses and like Thomas Hobbes, I feel it is the basis for all morality.

Basically the issue I have here is that writing a traditionally morally good character is too easy. They are just like that and there is no reason needed to understand them. An asshole is different, we always find out why they are the way they are and most of the times events in the story will lead them back to being a bit of a more nice guy. There is nowhere to grow for upstanding people. It's why most people prefer the second Golden Sun game cause Felix is a more complex hero willing to side with some unsavory people to save the world whereas Isaac is pretty much a flat character overall. You can write a compelling morally righteous character (see Cecil, Ramza, Marche, etc...) but I often find most writers are lazy with these type of characters which is why I don't feel many RPG fans like myself enjoy them.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

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Originally Posted by Skyblade

What danger are they in? Do you think Marche could explain what was wrong with staying in Ivalice to any of them? Heck, is there anything wrong with staying in Ivalice for anyone but Mewt? It's not exactly refusing to face reality when reality itself has been completely rewritten.

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They are running away from their problems, isn't that trouble enough, how can they ever grow strong in character if when life makes things difficult for them they simply choose the easiest option to get out of it that requires some outside force to help them. You can't get anywhere in life if you choose a world where you can't face your problem. Ivalice isn't just Mewt's dream to run away it's everyones. Not to mention that they gain their goals by wiping out the lives of people were living in their home town, or brainwashing parental figures to fit your ideals for them cause you are too embarrassed to face them or accept them. I mean everyone but Marche is actually being selfish here since they would rather rewrite reality to be their paradise rather than face their lives. We all have issues in our lives that we don't want to deal with but growing up is about facing those problems, picking ourselves up when we fail, and shouldering on in good or bad. It is a much more fulfilling existence than hedonism. The whole point of the story is understanding this.

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They didn't exactly choose to rewrite reality. It just sort of happened around them. If you suddenly woke up in paradise, would you honestly try to stop and figure out how to get back to the real world?

They had no real way of knowing what happened. They certainly had no way of knowing that it had a cost to others (if indeed it did). Marche could very easily be the one refusing to face the fact that reality is simply not as stable as we might like to believe, at least early on in the story.

But all of this still just boils down to "it's the right thing to do". What is his reason for turning himself into the judges and trying to save the people of Muscadet? Does he know that it will get him access to Exodus? No. Does he know that he won't remain in prison forever and never get his friends back to St. Ivalice? No. He just knows that letting a village get enslaved and imprisoned because he chose to buck the system is wrong.

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Yes, heaven forbid we have a character in a game who isn't just an asshole for the sake of being an asshole.

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He's boring and prediuctable. I felt like I was watching a Saturday moning cartoon show which have those cheesy moral lesson scenes at the end. Anytime something was in trouble he would sidestep his quest to help out. The best part about the game was discovering that he doomed the world in the end because he never stopped to really ask anyone about the history of Alchemy and instead just did as he was told.

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Well, actually, there is almost no one who could have told him the history of Alchemy in a way that would have made any difference. Everyone except Hydros and Lunpa thought Alchemy would result in the end of the world. Even Kraden wanted to bring back Alchemy, not to save the world, but to save Babi. So even if Isaac had asked about the history of Alchemy (or, as the game implies, just listened to the lectures at Sol Sanctum), he wouldn't have come to any other conclusions.

What's more, we actually know from game canon that the world is equally doomed if Isaac does nothing. Whether because Saturos and Menardi would have failed to ignite Jupiter and Mars, or whether they or Alex would have led the world into a disaster that would have consumed the world, we know that everything ends if Isaac gives up.

You think Isaac is boring because he helps people. I find it pleasantly refreshing amongst all the psychotic jerks in the gaming industries these days. I find the "edgy dark antihero" trope that is dominating the market to be far more boring.

There are tons of reasons for Isaac to help people. Heck, he's basically an ambassador of magic to people who are completely mundane. And he's following in the footsteps of some magicians who go around absolutely destroying everything they come across. It's like someone following Magneto and trying to convince people that all mutants aren't bad. Maybe helping rescue some livelihoods will help.

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Is there anything wrong with wanting to help people out? With attempting to do a little more than just laugh at the misfortune of others as you walk by? With carrying power far beyond that of 99% of the world's population and actually suint that power to make a difference where you can?

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There is nothing wrong with being good, I just prefer characterization with it. Marche does what he must because he is trying to save his home and his friends, Ramza fights the cause of the war because he witnesses first hand its horrors in the early chapters. The main characters of all the Suikoden games are inspired to save their homes because of loss, national pride, or to end suffering they have seen first hand.

Isaac? Is a nice kid who was in the wrong place, gets orderd to save the world and does it. Where his raison d'etre? To give this a Final Fantasy spin, Cecil vs. Bartz, Bartz goes along with saving the world because he's a nice guy who was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and ultimately resigns himself to destiny due to a late game plot revelation that his father was a Dawn Warrior. His reasoning is shallow. Cecil did some bad things and it was his cowardice and in ability to stand up to his beliefs that led to suffering. He is compelled to do good because he no longer wants to be the man he was yesterday. His desire is manifested with his class change to Paladin and even though he fails he always picks himself back up and goes on. It is far more inspiring than Bartz. We strive to be Bartz but we all know we're more like Cecil, we all have a moment in our lives where we faltered to weakness instead of taking the high road.

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Isaac is a silent protagonist. We don't get to see a lot of direct characterization. That's why I actually adore the way the two games demonstrate characterization. Neither Isaac nor Felix speak in their respective games. Yet you can still get a great insight into what sort of people they are, where they place their priorities, and what they value just from how the games play out. For being a silent protagonist, you get a surprising amount of depth in Isaac's character.

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So just because you are a complete ass who feels no compassion for others and no reason to help when you can, that makes those who do bad characters? I'm apparently not human because I enjoy helping people. I go out of my way to assist those in trouble, to carry burdens, help people get around, etcetera. And if I was one of only dozens of people in the world capable of using magic, I'd do a hell of a lot more.

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That's a little uncalled for, you fail to try and understand my perspective. I simply need to understand where the character is coming from. Doing good for selfish reasons is not inherently wrong, maybe people do good because we enjoy it and it makes us feel good which itself is enough of a reason. Selfishness is not a bad trait in small doses and like Thomas Hobbes, I feel it is the basis for all morality.

Basically the issue I have here is that writing a traditionally morally good character is too easy. They are just like that and there is no reason needed to understand them. An asshole is different, we always find out why they are the way they are and most of the times events in the story will lead them back to being a bit of a more nice guy. There is nowhere to grow for upstanding people. It's why most people prefer the second Golden Sun game cause Felix is a more complex hero willing to side with some unsavory people to save the world whereas Isaac is pretty much a flat character overall. You can write a compelling morally righteous character (see Cecil, Ramza, Marche, etc...) but I often find most writers are lazy with these type of characters which is why I don't feel many RPG fans like myself enjoy them.

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In Golden Sun, there's a part where you encounter some people near the river who have been transformed into trees. After you fight off the villains, they push the people over, and one of them is dangerously close to falling into the river. All you have to do is take two steps out of your way to use your Psynergy to rescue the person.

Or you could just walk on by, and then you later find out that one of them got washed away by the river and drowned. Because you didn't feel like being a goody two shoes.

So, yeah, if you can't sympathize with the person with magic actually taking two seconds to save someone's life just because he feels it's the right thing to do, I kind of think you're a jerk.

Put Skyblade and Wolf into one room...

:wcanoe:

There has to be a reason he was the first person I sent a Friend Request to on this site. Someday I'll figure it out.

You can have a character who is a good guy for the sake of being a good guy but still give him more meaning. I think Zidane did a good job of that. Zidane is just a good guy, but he has character and he has heart.

I think to give a real world example of what Wolf is talking about, unless I misunderstand him, is that good people have a reason for being good. I have always gone out of my way to help others, to give back when I can, to volunteer, to donate money, to donate food, to put someone up when they need it, etc etc, (heck if someone asked me for a kidney I would have a hard time saying no even if I had never met them) because I want to be a good person and do good things for others. But I didn't magically wake up one day and say "Gee, I'm going to do all of this." It came from having a crap life and not wanting anyone else to ever have to feel the way I've felt. Sure some of it is probably just how my brain works, I have a really high sense of empathy which also helped push it forward, but it came from somewhere.

I think what he's saying is its great to have characters like that, but show us why they're like that. Show us what made them that way, even if its just growing up in a strong environment with plenty of support and having been raised to care about others.

Also give them some depth because everyone has faults and everyone has struggles. Making a character like that makes them more relateable and believable and makes for a stronger character

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Originally Posted by Skyblade

They didn't exactly choose to rewrite reality. It just sort of happened around them. If you suddenly woke up in paradise, would you honestly try to stop and figure out how to get back to the real world?

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I'd be like Marche and highly suspicious, if I got a mysterious check in the mail for a ton of money I'd hold onto it until it's real owner showed up, not cash it in cause I think someone out there likes me.

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They had no real way of knowing what happened. They certainly had no way of knowing that it had a cost to others (if indeed it did). Marche could very easily be the one refusing to face the fact that reality is simply not as stable as we might like to believe, at least early on in the story.

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True, but the player knows because we saw that the new Ivalice overwrote the real reality and we saw that Mewt's dream world had forced Cid's will to bend to Mewt's desire. Once Marche confronts all of them about the state of the world, all of them choose to reject it to fulfill there own desires.

For me the main reason to understand that Dream Ivalice is false is because Montblanc and his entire Clan willingly help Marche with his goal, which tells me one of two things: a) Montblanc and by extension the people of Dream Ivalice are somewhat aware that their world is not the right reality, b) Montblanc, like Judgemaster Cid is compelled against his will by Marche's wishes to go home.

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You think Isaac is boring because he helps people. I find it pleasantly refreshing amongst all the psychotic jerks in the gaming industries these days. I find the "edgy dark antihero" trope that is dominating the market to be far more boring.

There are tons of reasons for Isaac to help people. Heck, he's basically an ambassador of magic to people who are completely mundane. And he's following in the footsteps of some magicians who go around absolutely destroying everything they come across. It's like someone following Magneto and trying to convince people that all mutants aren't bad. Maybe helping rescue some livelihoods will help.

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He is boring cause we get no real background of who he is. He's a nice kid with special powers trying to save the world. Let's compare him to Ryu from Breath of Fire II, who grew up with a caring father, a missing mother, a loving sister, one day wakes up to find they are all gone and is told they never existed. He teams up with a selfish but friendly orphan and the two escape his hometown and live their lives scraping for survival before the game opens up again to show they both grew up to be Rangers, people who help other people, they wish to do this cause their lives had been of one of hardship. Ryu also never speaks, he is also a silent protagonist but we get enough of a backstory to really understand where he is coming from, his relationship with his friend Bow and how they interact really show that Ryu is the compassionate but lawful good hero who often has to bail his friend out of trouble. He never talks, hell you barely get any choices to make for him, and yet he's a really kind and wonderful person. Ryu's kindness is forged by his personal struggles and the kindness he had shown to him. That is why he's a good person, he is not good for the sake of being good he is good cause he knows it is the right thing to do because his past and relations define him. Isaac doesn't have that, he could be any kid from that village for as much depth was given to him to justify who he is as a character.

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Isaac is a silent protagonist. We don't get to see a lot of direct characterization. That's why I actually adore the way the two games demonstrate characterization. Neither Isaac nor Felix speak in their respective games. Yet you can still get a great insight into what sort of people they are, where they place their priorities, and what they value just from how the games play out. For being a silent protagonist, you get a surprising amount of depth in Isaac's character.

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I feel Persona 2, Suikoden II/Tactics, and Arc the Lad 2 handled it better. Just my opinion.

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But all of this still just boils down to "it's the right thing to do". What is his reason for turning himself into the judges and trying to save the people of Muscadet? Does he know that it will get him access to Exodus? No. Does he know that he won't remain in prison forever and never get his friends back to St. Ivalice? No. He just knows that letting a village get enslaved and imprisoned because he chose to buck the system is wrong.

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In Golden Sun, there's a part where you encounter some people near the river who have been transformed into trees. After you fight off the villains, they push the people over, and one of them is dangerously close to falling into the river. All you have to do is take two steps out of your way to use your Psynergy to rescue the person.

Or you could just walk on by, and then you later find out that one of them got washed away by the river and drowned. Because you didn't feel like being a goody two shoes.

So, yeah, if you can't sympathize with the person with magic actually taking two seconds to save someone's life just because he feels it's the right thing to do, I kind of think you're a jerk.

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Skyblade, you have utterly missed the point of my argument and are too hung up on trying to defend your own moral code instead of seeing what my argument is really about, which is "where is the characterization?", shion gets it, read her post, I want context if I am going to understand and relate to a character. I understand why I would save the people, but why is the character doing it? I can't accept "cause it is the right thing to do" as an answer because I understand the conviction of that belief needs something to motivate it, whether it was a harsh past, or maybe strong moral figure in their life, or maybe because they don't know any better. I can't follow a shallow character who does the right thing because they were written to do the right thing, I want to know why they make their decisions. This isn't an attack on doing the right thing, this is an about making sure the player understand where the character is coming from when they do the right thing, to understand why they are that type of person. It is too easy for writers to simply say "he's good because I said so" that doesn't make them relatable that just shows the writer is lazy.

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Originally Posted by shion

You can have a character who is a good guy for the sake of being a good guy but still give him more meaning. I think Zidane did a good job of that. Zidane is just a good guy, but he has character and he has heart.

I think to give a real world example of what Wolf is talking about, unless I misunderstand him, is that good people have a reason for being good. I have always gone out of my way to help others, to give back when I can, to volunteer, to donate money, to donate food, to put someone up when they need it, etc etc, (heck if someone asked me for a kidney I would have a hard time saying no even if I had never met them) because I want to be a good person and do good things for others. But I didn't magically wake up one day and say "Gee, I'm going to do all of this." It came from having a crap life and not wanting anyone else to ever have to feel the way I've felt. Sure some of it is probably just how my brain works, I have a really high sense of empathy which also helped push it forward, but it came from somewhere.

I think what he's saying is its great to have characters like that, but show us why they're like that. Show us what made them that way, even if its just growing up in a strong environment with plenty of support and having been raised to care about others.

Also give them some depth because everyone has faults and everyone has struggles. Making a character like that makes them more relateable and believable and makes for a stronger character

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Thank you, someone gets it. :D

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

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Originally Posted by Skyblade

They didn't exactly choose to rewrite reality. It just sort of happened around them. If you suddenly woke up in paradise, would you honestly try to stop and figure out how to get back to the real world?

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I'd be like Marche and highly suspicious, if I got a mysterious check in the mail for a ton of money I'd hold onto it until it's real owner showed up, not cash it in cause I think someone out there likes me.

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They had no real way of knowing what happened. They certainly had no way of knowing that it had a cost to others (if indeed it did). Marche could very easily be the one refusing to face the fact that reality is simply not as stable as we might like to believe, at least early on in the story.

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True, but the player knows because we saw that the new Ivalice overwrote the real reality and we saw that Mewt's dream world had forced Cid's will to bend to Mewt's desire. Once Marche confronts all of them about the state of the world, all of them choose to reject it to fulfill there own desires.

For me the main reason to understand that Dream Ivalice is false is because Montblanc and his entire Clan willingly help Marche with his goal, which tells me one of two things: a) Montblanc and by extension the people of Dream Ivalice are somewhat aware that their world is not the right reality, b) Montblanc, like Judgemaster Cid is compelled against his will by Marche's wishes to go home.

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Or Montblanc, like most people, see someone confused and in trouble and just want to help them.

Also, Marche doesn't have access to player knowledge. Everything happened while he was asleep. So what the player knows is irrelevant (and, as I pointed out, the transition scene itself is incredibly deceptive). What's more, Marche doesn't confront anyone else about the world. Ritz confronts Marche about the world, and her suspicion that it's based on their town.

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You think Isaac is boring because he helps people. I find it pleasantly refreshing amongst all the psychotic jerks in the gaming industries these days. I find the "edgy dark antihero" trope that is dominating the market to be far more boring.

There are tons of reasons for Isaac to help people. Heck, he's basically an ambassador of magic to people who are completely mundane. And he's following in the footsteps of some magicians who go around absolutely destroying everything they come across. It's like someone following Magneto and trying to convince people that all mutants aren't bad. Maybe helping rescue some livelihoods will help.

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He is boring cause we get no real background of who he is. He's a nice kid with special powers trying to save the world. Let's compare him to Ryu from Breath of Fire II, who grew up with a caring father, a missing mother, a loving sister, one day wakes up to find they are all gone and is told they never existed. He teams up with a selfish but friendly orphan and the two escape his hometown and live their lives scraping for survival before the game opens up again to show they both grew up to be Rangers, people who help other people, they wish to do this cause their lives had been of one of hardship. Ryu also never speaks, he is also a silent protagonist but we get enough of a backstory to really understand where he is coming from, his relationship with his friend Bow and how they interact really show that Ryu is the compassionate but lawful good hero who often has to bail his friend out of trouble. He never talks, hell you barely get any choices to make for him, and yet he's a really kind and wonderful person. Ryu's kindness is forged by his personal struggles and the kindness he had shown to him. That is why he's a good person, he is not good for the sake of being good he is good cause he knows it is the right thing to do because his past and relations define him. Isaac doesn't have that, he could be any kid from that village for as much depth was given to him to justify who he is as a character.

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Um, we find out a ton about Isaac's background. All you have to do is actually pay attention and talk to the NPCs (and Mind Read them). You get a clear understanding of Vale, it's culture, what it values, Dora's perceptions, etcetera. It's pretty easy to understand what sort of culture/family Isaac grew up in and how that shaped him.

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Isaac is a silent protagonist. We don't get to see a lot of direct characterization. That's why I actually adore the way the two games demonstrate characterization. Neither Isaac nor Felix speak in their respective games. Yet you can still get a great insight into what sort of people they are, where they place their priorities, and what they value just from how the games play out. For being a silent protagonist, you get a surprising amount of depth in Isaac's character.

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I feel Persona 2, Suikoden II/Tactics, and Arc the Lad 2 handled it better. Just my opinion.

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Another game doing things better doesn't mean that this game did things bad.

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But all of this still just boils down to "it's the right thing to do". What is his reason for turning himself into the judges and trying to save the people of Muscadet? Does he know that it will get him access to Exodus? No. Does he know that he won't remain in prison forever and never get his friends back to St. Ivalice? No. He just knows that letting a village get enslaved and imprisoned because he chose to buck the system is wrong.

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In Golden Sun, there's a part where you encounter some people near the river who have been transformed into trees. After you fight off the villains, they push the people over, and one of them is dangerously close to falling into the river. All you have to do is take two steps out of your way to use your Psynergy to rescue the person.

Or you could just walk on by, and then you later find out that one of them got washed away by the river and drowned. Because you didn't feel like being a goody two shoes.

So, yeah, if you can't sympathize with the person with magic actually taking two seconds to save someone's life just because he feels it's the right thing to do, I kind of think you're a jerk.

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Skyblade, you have utterly missed the point of my argument and are too hung up on trying to defend your own moral code instead of seeing what my argument is really about, which is "where is the characterization?", shion gets it, read her post, I want context if I am going to understand and relate to a character. I understand why I would save the people, but why is the character doing it? I can't accept "cause it is the right thing to do" as an answer because I understand the conviction of that belief needs something to motivate it, whether it was a harsh past, or maybe strong moral figure in their life, or maybe because they don't know any better. I can't follow a shallow character who does the right thing because they were written to do the right thing, I want to know why they make their decisions. This isn't an attack on doing the right thing, this is an about making sure the player understand where the character is coming from when they do the right thing, to understand why they are that type of person. It is too easy for writers to simply say "he's good because I said so" that doesn't make them relatable that just shows the writer is lazy.

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Ok, in that case, go play Golden Sun again, and this time actually talk to the NPCs. Don't just rush off on your quest, explore Vale. Talk to the priests at the Sanctum, etcetera. You can learn a lot about how Isaac was brought up, and why he acts the way he does.

Vale is built on a culture of protection and community. They believe their role is to guard the world from Alchemy by protecting Sol Sanctum. The theft of the Elemental Stars is the failure of their entire purpose. Isaac is charged with recovering the Stars by an entity that about 90% of them literally think is a god.

We know that Vale has a strong sense of community and helping people out in the wake of disasters (it's literally one of the first things they show us in the game). We know that several of the young villagers want to go out and explore the world. We know that Isaac is directly cautioned about how he presents himself, since he'll be representing Vale and Psynergy to the world.

There is a ton of characterization and backstory available.