Help me understand a particular kind of English grammar...

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Originally Posted by The Summoner of Leviathan

foa forgot to say that both clauses have to be independent clauses, which are clauses that can be complete sentences on their own; these differ from subordinate clauses which cannot stand on their own by virtue of not being a complete sentence.

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This is what I had learned, though I've been paying particular attention to grammatical coloring as I read lately, and I've noticed the use of the semicolon by some authors following an independent clause and preceding a fragment.

I cannot reconcile this with any proper rules, yet there is lies on the page. I personally find it very fitting. I often have a sentence fragment that is an afterthought of a previous sentence where I would personally find it very befitting to add a semicolon to tie the ideas together without creating a whole new sentence or independent clause to add the secondary idea.

In an essay before I had fragmented sentences, but the teacher did not dock off marks, for she said it worked. So I guess it depends on how effective they are. If their effectiveness overwhelms the grammatical importance than I think it is probably acceptable by most. At least that is how I see it.

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Originally Posted by Peter_20

"I hope you don't mind MY saying so..."

What's this?
Personally I'm more used to the alternative "I hope you don't mind I'M saying so", but perhaps that's just some Swedish thing?

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Let me clear up the issue once and for all. There are three commonly used constructions for expression of such things:

"I hope you don't mind my saying so."
In this case, "saying" (which is a gerund from the verb say and therefore functions as a noun) is the object of mind. "So" is an adverb modifying "saying." "My," in this case, is a subjective genitive form of the first person pronoun--note particularly that it is subjective (not in the usual way that people use the word subjective, but rather in the fact that "my" serves the role of the subject in the implied clause: "I say").

"I hope you don't mind me saying so."
In this case, "saying" (which is a present-tense active participle) is an adjective modifying "me," which is the object of "mind." Therefore "me saying" is the object phrase of "mind." Again, "so" is an adverb modifying "saying."

"I hope you don't mind (that) I'm saying so."
In this case, "(that) I'm saying so" is an object phrase--this entire thing is the object of "mind." Note that this is an example of an indirect statement, which is a common construction that takes the form of "[special verb] that* [dependent clause]" or "[special verb] ([direct object of the verb, which serves as the subject of the indirect statement]) [infinitive with implied subject that is the same as that of the previous verb or the one specified as the main verb's direct object]." Therefore, in the above bolded sentence, "I" is the subject, "am saying" is the verb, and "so" is an adverb modifying "am saying," all of which combine to create a clause dependent upon the word "mind."

* In colloquial speech/writing, the "that" is often omitted.



I hope that this explanation clarifies the matter. :)

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Originally Posted by Dr Aum

"I hope you don't mind my saying so."
"I hope you don't mind me saying so."

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The first sentence means "I hope you don't mind my SAYING" (as opposed to my singing or my dancing), and the second means "I hope you don't mind ME saying" (as opposed to Chester saying or George saying). They are strictly different sentences in meaning, not different forms of the same sentence, I hope you would agree. Lots of people use the second form meaning the first form, which is strictly wrong.

[qq=Peter_20]Personally I'm more used to the alternative "I hope you don't mind I'M saying so", but perhaps that's just some Swedish thing?[/qq][qq=Dr Aum]"I hope you don't mind (that) I'm saying so."[/qq]

Leaving out the "that" is an extremely uncommon usage, at least in the part of 'merica I live in. I've never heard it used.

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Originally Posted by Dr Unne

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Originally Posted by Dr Aum

"I hope you don't mind my saying so."
"I hope you don't mind me saying so."

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The first sentence means "I hope you don't mind my SAYING" (as opposed to my singing or my dancing), and the second means "I hope you don't mind ME saying" (as opposed to Chester saying or George saying). They are strictly different sentences in meaning, not different forms of the same sentence, I hope you would agree. Lots of people use the second form meaning the first form, which is strictly wrong.

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Of course they have two different meanings. I never conflated them. From a practical standpoint, though, all three of the sentences that I wrote in bold have the same basic intention.

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Originally Posted by Dr Aum

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Originally Posted by Dr Unne

"I hope you don't mind (that) I'm saying so."

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Leaving out the "that" is an extremely uncommon usage, at least in the part of 'merica I live in. I've never heard it used.

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It's really just a matter of idiom. For some words we leave out the "that" (e.g. "I think you're crazy.") and for others we don't (e.g. "I hope you don't mind that I'm saying so."). The "that" is grammatically correct and should be present, but of course there's no mandate that every human adhere perfectly to the rules of grammar. There are also, of course, some words for which we use the original way that an indirect statement was constructed (they go back at least as far as Latin), e.g. "I want to live" is the same as "I want that I should live" (not all of them need the subjunctive, though, of course) and "I feel it to be unnecessary" is the same as "I feel that it is unnecessary." This generally sounds a little pompous, but it's not incorrect.

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Originally Posted by Owen Macwere

Doesn't this have three forms?:

1)I hope you don't mind ME saying....
2)I hope you don't mind MY saying...
3)I hope you don't mind THAT I'M saying...

I think all three of these can be used and are correct.

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It's true that all of these are correct. It just depends on what you're talking about.

I hope you don't mind ME, PERSONALLY,...
I hope you don't mind MY WORDS...
I hope you don't mind MY ACTIONS...

EDIT: UNNE!!!

With blatant disregard for posts after the first page: English is too complex. Everyone should speak Germish! (German/english hybrid) It's as easy as german, and the word complexity of english! Enjoy.

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Originally Posted by Big Bri-dog

The first sentence means "I hope you don't mind my SAYING" (as opposed to my singing or my dancing), and the second means "I hope you don't mind ME saying" (as opposed to Chester saying or George saying). They are strictly different sentences in meaning, not different forms of the same sentence, I hope you would agree. Lots of people use the second form meaning the first form, which is strictly wrong.

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*insert a direct copy/paste of Unne's diatribe in my LJ about how you can never say anything in grammar is right or wrong, which he used against me when I said something very similar about a similar error in grammar, and even though Unne was 100% wrong in that instance, I'm using it against him here in order to mock him*

Dr Aum, I did not mean to imply that you said anything wrong in your post. I was only adding my two cents. Also you posted seconds before I was about to post the same thing, and stole my grammarian thunder. :mad2:
[qq=Raist]Blah blah blah I'm wrong blah blah I'm always wrong etc.[/qq]I said it was "strictly" wrong. If you aren't strict, then it's not wrong.

Nice try, old man. :p

On topic, "I hope you don't mind my saying so" doesn't make sense.

The problem is simple, here in America, all through school, you are not taught the actual structure of the language. No one teaches you what the cases are, or anything like that. We learn verbs, nouns, adjetives and such. That is about it. We suck at k-12. I didn't start learning structure of the English language(other than what I was taught from simply speaking it) until I started taking German in high school last year. Sad state of affairs.

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Originally Posted by Fates Forgotten

With blatant disregard for posts after the first page: English is too complex. Everyone should speak Germish! (German/english hybrid) It's as easy as german, and the word complexity of english! Enjoy.

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German, easy?
Are you kidding?
Nobody in my entire German class understood that much after five years of effective studying. :p

In Sweden, German is infamous and known as one of the most tricky languages ever. :D

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Originally Posted by Peter_20

...and let's not forget the differences between English and American: I think English words like "closet" and "sweets" are called "wardrobe" and "candy" in America.

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The sweets and candy thing is good. Although, I'm pretty sure that wardrobe is used over here a lot more than closet is. xD I've never used closet in my life.

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Originally Posted by Shauna

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Originally Posted by Peter_20

...and let's not forget the differences between English and American: I think English words like "closet" and "sweets" are called "wardrobe" and "candy" in America.

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The sweets and candy thing is good. Although, I'm pretty sure that wardrobe is used over here a lot more than closet is. xD I've never used closet in my life.

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"Wardrobe" could very well be the English word too, because I don't remember clearly. :p XD

Th1s 1s t3h 1nt3rn3t 4nd u p30pl3 4r3 t0 us3 t3h l4ngu4g3 4ll0c4t3d f0r 1t! :mad2: