Modern Warfare 2 + Spoilers

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

MGS4 got the message of contemporary warfare across probably better than gunning down civilians in an airport ever will (sorry, I guess the cat's out of the bag).

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My opinion would be a double standard if I was pasting judgement on violence in video games in general but I'm not. I'm referring to how tastelessly war is glamorized by games like Modern Warfare 2. I don't see any harm in cartoonish violence like GTA so sue me! Cartoon violence is mere escapism! I honestly could care less if anyone agrees with this sentiment!

To tell the truth it is really the way MW2 is just being classless that annoys me. They could of brought up the issue like Kojima did in MGS4 in a social commentary narrative its not necessary to depict the slaughter of innocent bystanders to make the same point.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

That isn't fair. I've already stated how games specifically like Far Cry 2 and even the original Call of Duty can successfully and powerfully convey such messages using the perspective technique you guys are discussing. Everyone who knows me here knows I love MGS, especially MGS4; the way it conveys messages and makes the player think is one of the pillars of why I play the games.

You're setting up a really valid point and i'm impressed by your thinking. and I'm offended at you brushing off the fact that I recognize video games are (and believe they should) emerging as a recognized form of art and storytelling. I've said in nearly every post that I'm going to give Infinity Ward the benefit of the doubt and play the game, yet you're oblivious to it.

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Sorry if I hurt your feelings since that wasn't my intention, but you can't argue that video games are emerging as a new method of story telling and then claim that they're a juvenile art form and the most ineffective way to get a message across. It's one or the other, you can't have it both ways. And that's not even me putting words in your mouth; go back and read your second post and tell me you didn't outright say that video games are a poor place to convey messages like this.

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And yes, I feel we disagree that there is a difference between this and GTA. There's a multitude of reasons for that and I'll reserve it to another post if necessary, but my first one in this thread pretty much sums it up.

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My problem with the comparison to GTA violence was Shattered Dreamers implication that COD is making people trigger happy lunatics who could more easily take a life and GTA is good clean fun. Sorry, but if one of them is going to desensitize someone to the point that taking a life in reality actually became easier (which I don't believe either would for any mentally healthy teenager or adult), then so will the other.

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Originally Posted by Shattered Dreamer

I'm referring to how tastelessly war is glamorized by games like Modern Warfare 2.

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I've stated numerous examples of how COD4 did not glamorize war and all you've come up with as a retort is to repeatedly state that it does glamorize war. Seriously, give me some examples of how it does or quit beating the dead horse, because saying it glamorizes war a hundred times isn't going to make it so.

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Originally Posted by Shattered Dreamer

To tell the truth it is really the way MW2 is just being classless that annoys me. They could of brought up the issue like Kojima did in MGS4 in a social commentary narrative its not necessary to depict the slaughter of innocent bystanders to make the same point.

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I love MGS4, I really do. It's one of my favourite games on the PS3. That said, every single scene I've talked about in COD4 was far more moving and demonstrated the actual horrors of war far better than any in game narrative could. I feel the same way about this given scene. It's one thing to say that innocent people are killed in acts of terrorism and war everyday. Hell, we see it on the news all the time. The thing is, you tell most people and they'll say "that's a shame," and move on with their day. As far as getting the messages of how horrible war can be, I think sometimes it is necessary to see what happens and the consequences since that can send the message much better than even the greatest oration. And I feel video games can be the greatest vehicle for things like this because they're interactive. You can go ahead and be offended by something like this, in the mean time, I'll thank Infinity Ward for not glossing over the ugly truths of war and the human race.

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Originally Posted by Vivi22

Sorry if I hurt your feelings since that wasn't my intention, but you can't argue that video games are emerging as a new method of story telling and then claim that they're a juvenile art form and the most ineffective way to get a message across. It's one or the other, you can't have it both ways. And that's not even me putting words in your mouth; go back and read your second post and tell me you didn't outright say that video games are a poor place to convey messages like this.

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I guess I could have worded my thoughts better. My main point is - who is going to play this game? The vast majority, regardless of age, is not going to be mature enough to internalize it in the way you guys are suggesting, and the ones who are will be divided on whether this is actually good storytelling or just plain bad taste. Ourselves discussing this have yet to see for ourselves.

Activision has publicly confirmed and commented on the segment:
Activision Confirms and Explains Leaked Modern Warfare 2 Footage - IndustryGamers

Apparently there are non-optional checkpoints that warn that the upcoming content may be disturbing. I don't know how this game isn't going to be AO in the states.

The thing about CoD4, and the reason I rate it so highly in terms of moving the medium forward, is that it used gameplay to make its points as much as it used story. Yes we can all sit around beating the drum about how war is bad and nukes are bad and etc. but CoD4 actually gave the player something to think about.

I'm hard pressed to think of another game, certainly another mainstream one, which so successfully and dramatically subverts the tropes of the genre it belongs to. CoD4's most memorable moment is a level where there are no enemies, no allies, no weapons; you do not fire a shot. You crawl around for a minute and die. That might just about fit in a game like Disaster Report, or could be a mindsmurf in a survival horror game, but in a mainstream big-budget FPS? That took balls and it worked damned well. Telling the player that nukes are bad is one thing. Making the player die in a nuclear explosion is another. One of these is certainly something most people might ignore, but actually playing through things like that does, I believe, have much more impact. Ultimately my point is that it's not good storytelling in the traditional sense, it's good storytelling in a much more exciting way; through gameplay.

That is why I am somewhat optimistic about this whole thing. Based on past experience, I am of the opinion that Infinity Ward will do something interesting and thought-provoking.

Finally, if games aren't able to force players to think of them as serious narrative vehicles, and players aren't going to open their minds to the idea themselves, then we might as well give up the whole pretentious thing and stop caring.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

I guess I could have worded my thoughts better. My main point is - who is going to play this game? The vast majority, regardless of age, is not going to be mature enough to internalize it in the way you guys are suggesting, and the ones who are will be divided on whether this is actually good storytelling or just plain bad taste. Ourselves discussing this have yet to see for ourselves.

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The thing is though, even if the majority who see it can't internalize it and see the purpose behind it as we can, will still feel the purpose behind it on a sub-conscious level when they realize how horrible it is. They may quit there and say that it's a terrible game and never should have included that, but it still did it's job of getting some part of them thinking. If you ask me, that's a mark of a great work of art, and there have been plenty of great works of art that weren't recognized for what they were until well after release.

Also, what MILF said.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

Activision has publicly confirmed and commented on the segment:
Activision Confirms and Explains Leaked Modern Warfare 2 Footage - IndustryGamers

Apparently there are non-optional checkpoints that warn that the upcoming content may be disturbing.

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Wanted to draw attention to this again. I'll put Activision's full statement in a spoiler.

(SPOILER)

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Originally Posted by Activision

The leaked footage was taken from a copy of game that was obtained illegally and is not representative of the overall gameplay experience in Modern Warfare 2.

Infinity Ward’s Modern Warfare 2 features a deep and gripping storyline in which players face off against a terrorist threat dedicated to bringing the world to the brink of collapse. The game includes a plot involving a mission carried out by a Russian villain who wants to trigger a global war. In order to defeat him, the player infiltrates his inner circle. The scene is designed to evoke the atrocities of terrorism.

At the beginning of the game, players encounter a mandatory “checkpoint” in which they are warned that an upcoming segment may contain disturbing elements and they can choose not to engage in the gameplay that involves this scene. Consistent with its content, the game has been given an “M” for Mature by the Entertainment Software Ratings Board. The rating is prominently displayed on the front and back of the packaging, as well as in all advertising.

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Wal-Mart is also pushing this pretty hard, and they have a 2-minute TV commercial about it. Near the beginning, the Wal-Mart commercial also stresses that the game is for adults (in a rather interesting way). The rest of the video is kind of lame, but whatever.

So, Activision says you can 'choose not to engage in the gameplay that involves this scene'. Some sites are saying that means you can skip it, but I'm not sure the quote from Activision indicates that. I think it just means you can choose not to...engage in the gameplay.

I'm glad that it doesn't just happen without warning. They state their intent with the scene clearly there, stress that the game is rated M for a reason, and warn you--the adult player--in advance that stuff is gonna happen soon that you might not like.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

I don't know how this game isn't going to be AO in the states.

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Violence < Sex in America, apparently.

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Originally Posted by Vivi22

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Originally Posted by Shattered Dreamer

I'm referring to how tastelessly war is glamorized by games like Modern Warfare 2.

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I've stated numerous examples of how COD4 did not glamorize war and all you've come up with as a retort is to repeatedly state that it does glamorize war. Seriously, give me some examples of how it does or quit beating the dead horse, because saying it glamorizes war a hundred times isn't going to make it so.

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Originally Posted by Shattered Dreamer

To tell the truth it is really the way MW2 is just being classless that annoys me. They could of brought up the issue like Kojima did in MGS4 in a social commentary narrative its not necessary to depict the slaughter of innocent bystanders to make the same point.

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I love MGS4, I really do. It's one of my favourite games on the PS3. That said, every single scene I've talked about in COD4 was far more moving and demonstrated the actual horrors of war far better than any in game narrative could. I feel the same way about this given scene. It's one thing to say that innocent people are killed in acts of terrorism and war everyday. Hell, we see it on the news all the time. The thing is, you tell most people and they'll say "that's a shame," and move on with their day. As far as getting the messages of how horrible war can be, I think sometimes it is necessary to see what happens and the consequences since that can send the message much better than even the greatest oration. And I feel video games can be the greatest vehicle for things like this because they're interactive. You can go ahead and be offended by something like this, in the mean time, I'll thank Infinity Ward for not glossing over the ugly truths of war and the human race.

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I reckon we final put this to bed. I think the very fact Infinity Ward think its okay to depict such scenes in MW2 counts as a certain degree of glamorization whether or not its doing so screaming NO MORE WAR as it does it. I appreciate we see it on TV everyday but that galvanizes my point. Most people use video games for escapism they don't need a constant reminder of the slaughter of innocence. I'm am happy to hear about the mandatory checkpoint with the warning but regardless I'm sorry the scene is tasteless regardless.

It's likely the controversy surrounding the scene will help sell the game which suggests its probably lacking in some part. I appreciate the visual medium is more affective then the narrative but having to shock people to sell your game is distasteful! But hey thats life!

If there is any game that does not need controversy to sell more copies, it is Modern Warfare 2. It is the highest profile release this year, and I suspect few games already released will be able to compete with it when it comes to sales. Maybe Wii Fit +.

I understand why you think that though, since there have been games in the past that did that. This ain't one of them.

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Originally Posted by Shattered Dreamer

I reckon we final put this to bed. I think the very fact Infinity Ward think its okay to depict such scenes in MW2 counts as a certain degree of glamorization whether or not its doing so screaming NO MORE WAR as it does it.

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I'm fairly convinced at this point that you don't actually know what glamorize means. I hate to keep on this point but glamorizing war would mean that COD4 or MW2 glorified it or romanticized it, in some way packaging it so that it seems like a righteous calling or noble crusade. From a gameplay stand point, it does no more to glamorize war and violence than any other game that has ever portrayed either. From a story standpoint, as I have said with numerous examples from COD4, it outright shows war for the dirty business it is and makes it seem about as appealing as getting kicked in the nads a hundred times over then being tortured to death.

There is nothing glorious or noble about war as it was portrayed in COD4. If you found it to be glmorizing war, that says more about you than it does COD4 and Infinity Ward.

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Most people use video games for escapism they don't need a constant reminder of the slaughter of innocence.

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Most people use TV, movies, books, etc. as forms of escapism. It doesn't mean they can't feature mature and even distasteful themes as part of their plot. Trying to argue this point is weak at best. If you don't want to play a game that maturely handles uncomfortable topics then don't play it. Don't try saying that it's unnecessary and goes too far though because then you're just trying to ruin it for those of us who can appreciate what Infinity Ward is trying to do.

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Originally Posted by Vivi22

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Originally Posted by Shattered Dreamer

I reckon we final put this to bed. I think the very fact Infinity Ward think its okay to depict such scenes in MW2 counts as a certain degree of glamorization whether or not its doing so screaming NO MORE WAR as it does it.

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I'm fairly convinced at this point that you don't actually know what glamorize means. I hate to keep on this point but glamorizing war would mean that COD4 or MW2 glorified it or romanticized it, in some way packaging it so that it seems like a righteous calling or noble crusade. From a gameplay stand point, it does no more to glamorize war and violence than any other game that has ever portrayed either. From a story standpoint, as I have said with numerous examples from COD4, it outright shows war for the dirty business it is and makes it seem about as appealing as getting kicked in the nads a hundred times over then being tortured to death.

There is nothing glorious or noble about war as it was portrayed in COD4. If you found it to be glmorizing war, that says more about you than it does COD4 and Infinity Ward.

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Most people use video games for escapism they don't need a constant reminder of the slaughter of innocence.

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Most people use TV, movies, books, etc. as forms of escapism. It doesn't mean they can't feature mature and even distasteful themes as part of their plot. Trying to argue this point is weak at best. If you don't want to play a game that maturely handles uncomfortable topics then don't play it. Don't try saying that it's unnecessary and goes too far though because then you're just trying to ruin it for those of us who can appreciate what Infinity Ward is trying to do.

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If you use glamorize as a hypernyms it can mean to alter, change or modify something in a either a possible or negative light . Infitity Ward in MW2 does at least try to alter,change or modify graphic scenes of war to sell a videogame. To me its tasteless! Accept not everyone agrees with your view points because I honestly don't what you think of mine, I've said that in previous posts. You seem at this point to be honestly going out of your way to prove mine wrong or misinformed. No offence I was just offering another view point:D

Awesome, awesome, awesome! I'll go into more dept soon but I can't turn my head away from the online multiplayer.

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Originally Posted by Dreddz

And Activision can kiss it if they expect me to buy MW2. I'm not paying £55 for a 4-5 hour single player campaign. I don't care how good COD4's campaign was (and it most definitely was good) there are better things I can spend my money on. I didn't even dig the multiplayer in COD4.

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Pretty much how I feel. My copy of CoD4 came with a graphics card I bought, but it's really not something I'd pay full retail for. $20-$30, maybe, but as much as I thought the multiplayer was well done, it didn't really grab me like it does most people. I'll probably just hold off and try to avoid spoilers until I can find it on sale or something.

Well the game's out and I have to say the scene wasn't that bad actually playing it. I think it was just something that seemed creepier than it really was, being played in some shady kid's room with french dialogue and bad quality. However, it kind of feels out of place in a game that pretty much has a non-existent story. IW themselves explained they make the missions and have the story fit that. It's obvious that two different operations (and maybe 3) at different parts in the campaign were made from the same level. It doesn't really make sense to have something like the airport scene in a game like this.

I see no one wasted any time in picking this game up. Last night my friends list was packed with people playing MW2. Even people who I thought had no interest in buying the game seem to be playing it. I almost feel a little bit left out :cry:

I won't be buying this game at £55 although I saw an advert in the Metro this morning showing MW2 going for just £26 at Sainsburys. I'm very very tempted to pick this game up now. Like, tomorrow.

Dreddz, please please please pick this game up if you can get it for a steal. You're pretty much spot on about the campaign, but i think with the addition of co-op this is something people will be playing for a long time.