Beatrix

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Originally Posted by PuPu

She may have had doubts, but it's not uncommon for soldiers to have doubts about their actions. What she and every other soldier have in common though, is that they still stupidly follow orders.

The fact that she needed to see Garnet to have a change of heart after her boss specifically told her that she was going to kill Garnet 5 minutes ago proves my point as to how stupid she is.

The fact that seeing Garnet unconscious somehow made her suddenly think: "genocide is bad" is also...bleh.

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This is how real life works. People commit atrocities all the time in the name of their country, it isn't unbelievable that a soldier would kill as told when the enemy is strangers. It isn't a huge disbelief that she would refuse to think Brahne would kill Garnet. Her life has been loyalty to the throne.

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Originally Posted by Vivisteiner

I don't think her progression was unrealistic. For a start, she probably didn't really believe what Brahne said in anger as being genuine. Her loyalty blinded her from reason - until the evidence was undeniable, and that would be expected considering her position.

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Which is...exactly why she's stupid with stupid blind loyalty like your typical stupid soldier. And her laughably bad transition to "I'll kill all enemies of Alexandria!" to "Citizens of Burmecia, please forgive me" happened in a matter of seconds over a completely unrelated subject (Garnet), which you can clearly tell is forced and poorly written.

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The reason Garnet's unconciousness caused that effect was because up until then there was always a way (albeit unconvincing) to justify Brahne's actions.

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...no there wasn't.

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But when these actions extended to Garnet - someone who she knew, it become patent that her reasons for genocide were pure fabrications.

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The only reason for genocide was "HURR LET'S TEST OUT HOW POWERFUL THESE EIDOLONS ARE BY SEEING HOW MANY PEOPLE THEY CAN KILL" which is hardly justifiable in any way.

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She knew first hand of the innocence of Garnet, and so the actions taken against her could only be condemned.

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Beatrix knew that Brahne was going to steal her Eidolons. There's no way she couldn't have known that this process alone was incredibly wrong and also an action against Garnet. In either case though, she's still incredibly stupid and ignorant.

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Originally Posted by Goldenboko

This is how real life works. People commit atrocities all the time in the name of their country, it isn't unbelievable that a soldier would kill as told when the enemy is strangers.

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The fact that she killed all those people isn't the problem. It's the way that she decided her actions were wrong, that's the problem.

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It isn't a huge disbelief that she would refuse to think Brahne would kill Garnet. Her life has been loyalty to the throne.

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It is when Brahne specifically told her that she would kill Garnet. Even if she didn't think Brahne would kill Garnet, she still should have known that stealing her Eidolons would cause severe harm to her as well. In either case, whether Beatrix knew or not, she's still incredibly retarded with a poorly written transition to becoming an ally.

...Why in the world would Beatrix know that taking her Eidolons would hurt her? :confused: The summoners where an extinct race on a Continent inhabitants of the Mist Continent never visited, knowledge of their race would be extremely limited.

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Originally Posted by Goldenboko

...Why in the world would Beatrix know that taking her Eidolons would hurt her? :confused: The summoners where an extinct race on a Continent inhabitants of the Mist Continent never visited, knowledge of their race would be extremely limited.

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Was going to say the same. Beatrix has absolutely no reason to know anything about the Eidolons.

As well as this, the destruction of people to test weapons isn't justifiable? She's a soldier who kills people in wars to get more power for her state. It's entirely justifiable in her eyes.

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Originally Posted by Quin

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Originally Posted by Goldenboko

...Why in the world would Beatrix know that taking her Eidolons would hurt her? :confused: The summoners where an extinct race on a Continent inhabitants of the Mist Continent never visited, knowledge of their race would be extremely limited.

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As well as this, the destruction of people to test weapons isn't justifiable? She's a soldier who kills people in wars to get more power for her state. It's entirely justifiable in her eyes.

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Example Hiroshima, 1945.

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Originally Posted by Goldenboko

...Why in the world would Beatrix know that taking her Eidolons would hurt her? :confused:

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...because it's forcibly removing something that's a part of her? Seriously, it isn't that hard to figure out.

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Originally Posted by Quin

Beatrix has absolutely no reason to know anything about the Eidolons.

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But she did know about the Eidolons.

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As well as this, the destruction of people to test weapons isn't justifiable?

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Not when those people are minding their own business and not doing anything to harm you.

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She's a soldier who kills people in wars to get more power for her state. It's entirely justifiable in her eyes.

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...which is why she's nothing more than a retarded and blindly loyal soldier.

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Originally Posted by Goldenboko

Example Hiroshima, 1945.

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Not the same, at all. Japan was an enemy, Cleyra was not an enemy of Alexandria.

No she didn't. Brahne only knew what Kuja told her, and all he bothered telling her were things that would appeal to her nature: AKA dem things blow :bou::bou::bou::bou: up. Coupled with the fact that Brahne was a bitch, it's safe to assume that she told Beatrix bugger all about anything. She wouldn't and didn't know that the process was forcibly removing something that was a part of Garnet, either.

You're thinking like you, which is why your argument is so fail. I'm not gonna bother arguing that killing innocent people minding their own business is a great way to test a weapon, because it's obviously wrong. But if you were Brahne, some power hungry psycho looking to forcibly take over the Mist Continent, then yeah I think it's an okay test method.

We also already know that Beatrix is a blindly loyal soldier. That's...well, that's exactly her character and the point of her inclusion in the game. The whole concept is that she's just a big, powerful robot. But she starts having doubts because Brahne's a massive dick, finally culminating in her betrayal when she rescues Garnet.

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Originally Posted by PuPu

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Originally Posted by Goldenboko

...Why in the world would Beatrix know that taking her Eidolons would hurt her? :confused:

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...because it's forcibly removing something that's a part of her? Seriously, it isn't that hard to figure out.

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They removed her horn when she was a baby because the assumed it was the best for her, to someone who doesn't know about Summoners, that would seem a lot more painful then removing intangible creatures.

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Originally Posted by PuPu

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Originally Posted by Quin

Beatrix has absolutely no reason to know anything about the Eidolons.

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But she did know about the Eidolons.

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Yes, I know what a plane is, I don't know how it flies.

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Originally Posted by PuPu

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As well as this, the destruction of people to test weapons isn't justifiable?

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Not when those people are minding their own business and not doing anything to harm you.

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She's a soldier who kills people in wars to get more power for her state. It's entirely justifiable in her eyes.

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...which is why she's nothing more than a retarded and blindly loyal soldier.

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First off, you should really watch how you word things. It's a soldier's job to obey orders, it doesn't make them retarded. Second, yes, that's the point, she's a soldier that kept to her duty until she decided she had to make a choice. Like a better developed Cecil from FFIV.

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Originally Posted by PuPu

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Originally Posted by Goldenboko

Example Hiroshima, 1945.

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Not the same, at all. Japan was an enemy, Lindblum was not an enemy of Alexandria.

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Lindblum was an enemy of Alexandria the moment Alexandria decided to declare war on, virtually the entire continent. I assumed that you where referring to the scenario in Cleyra where Beatrix used Odin, but insisted her soldiers could've done the job, which was much like using Atomic Bombs on Japan. It was a test to see if how powerful the Eidolons were and once successful, warning to Lindblum (much like how A-Bombing Japan was also a threat against the Soviets, although they countered by making A-Bombs themselves, something Lindblum couldn't do), who was obviously next in line.

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Originally Posted by Quin

No she didn't. Brahne only knew what Kuja told her, and all he bothered telling her were things that would appeal to her nature: AKA dem things blow :bou::bou::bou::bou: up. Coupled with the fact that Brahne was a bitch, it's safe to assume that she told Beatrix bugger all about anything.

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Odin destroying Cleyra.

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She wouldn't and didn't know that the process was forcibly removing something that was a part of Garnet, either.

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...lol. She couldn't figure that out from "Extract the Eidolons from Garnet?"

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You're thinking like you, which is why your argument is so fail.

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In this quote: The pot calls the kettle black.

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But if you were Brahne, some power hungry psycho looking to forcibly take over the Mist Continent, then yeah I think it's an okay test method.

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But this isn't about Brahne.

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We also already know that Beatrix is a blindly loyal soldier. That's...well, that's exactly her character and the point of her inclusion in the game. The whole concept is that she's just a big, powerful robot. But she starts having doubts because Brahne's a massive dick, finally culminating in her betrayal when she rescues Garnet.

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And she totally ignored all those doubts she had about Brahne and continued to spout blind loyal soldier nonsense such as "I'll kill all enemies of Alexandria!" until the very last minute where the plot forced her to become an ally.

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Originally Posted by Goldenboko

They removed her horn when she was a baby because the assumed it was the best for her, to someone who doesn't know about Summoners, that would seem a lot more painful then removing intangible creatures.

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...no it wouldn't. Considering that a horn isn't a vital organ or anything like that, and that her Eidolons were essentially part of her life force. Also, "intangible creatures"? Odin destroying Cleyra wasn't intangible.

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Yes, I know what a plane is, I don't know how it flies.

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Odin.

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It's a soldier's job to obey orders, it doesn't make them retarded.

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She's retarded due to the fact that she didn't know that Brahne was making up BS about sending her to kill people and wanting to kill Garnet, until the very last minute. Even though there were many signs that told her, though she just ignored them until the very last minute.

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Second, yes, that's the point, she's a soldier that kept to her duty until she decided she had to make a choice.

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And she made her choice over Garnet, something completely unrelated to killing all of Burmecia, and when Brahne already told her a minutes ago that she was going to kill Garnet.

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I assumed that you where referring to the scenario in Cleyra where Beatrix used Odin, but insisted her soldiers could've done the job, which was much like using Atomic Bombs on Japan.

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Yeah, didn't know why I said Lindblum. But that's still unjustified, due to the fact that Cleyra wasn't doing anything but minding their business in their desert city. They weren't enemies of Alexandria because they weren't doing anything toward Alexandria, which is why testing Odin on them was unjustified.

Your not taking into account the perspective of Beatrix. We know that the Eidolons are part of her life force. We know that the horn isn't a vital organ (we saw Garnet alive afterall). But when Dr. Tot recalls the removal he says, "The girl cried out in pain...". The Alexandrians had no idea what they were doing at the time.

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Originally Posted by PuPu

]And she totally ignored all those doubts she had about Brahne and continued to spout blind loyal soldier nonsense such as "I'll kill all enemies of Alexandria!" until the very last minute where the plot forced her to become an ally.

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There's a difference between a plot being "forcing" something or the storyline "forcing" something. Beatrix wasn't just going to betray Alexandria because she had doubts, all soldiers have doubts. Beatrix made her choice when the need to make one was thrust upon her. Even when Brahne said, "the girl is useless to me" Beatrix was going to deny that meant she was going kill her. Its like when a president signs to go to war, it'd be much different if he was pointing an M1 Garand at an 18 year old kid's head.

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Originally Posted by PuPu

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Originally Posted by Goldenboko

They removed her horn when she was a baby because the assumed it was the best for her, to someone who doesn't know about Summoners, that would seem a lot more painful then removing intangible creatures.

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...no it wouldn't. Considering that a horn isn't a vital organ or anything like that, and that her Eidolons were essentially part of her life force. Also, "intangible creatures"? Odin destroying Cleyra wasn't intangible.

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Yes, I know what a plane is, I don't know how it flies.

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Odin.

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I said HOW IT FLIES. I know it smurfing flies, but I don't know which wire will plummet the plane to the ground if I clip it.

As for unjustification, soldiers do horrible things. I'm not going to debate that, it doesn't make her a bad character in game.

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Originally Posted by PuPu

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She wouldn't and didn't know that the process was forcibly removing something that was a part of Garnet, either.

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...lol. She couldn't figure that out from "Extract the Eidolons from Garnet?"

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I can have a gun stuck in me and Dr.'s nowadays could remove it without killing me. Same concept she doesn't know it will kill her. You're taking facts you know as the audience and assuming the characters know them.

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...no it wouldn't. Considering that a horn isn't a vital organ or anything like that, and that her Eidolons were essentially part of her life force.

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to someone who doesn't know about Summoners

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Also, "intangible creatures"? Odin destroying Cleyra wasn't intangible.

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Not quite sure if you know what intangible means

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Yeah, didn't know why I said Lindblum. But that's still unjustified, due to the fact that Cleyra wasn't doing anything but minding their business in their desert city. They weren't enemies of Alexandria because they weren't doing anything toward Alexandria, which is why testing Odin on them was unjustified.

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You forget that many Burmecians retreated to Cleyra, including the King. Thus Brahne's argument would have been that Cleyra was harbouring those who would plot to destroy Alexandria, and so her only option would be to destroy it utterly.

See this quote from the game:

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Originally Posted by Final Fantasy IX

Brahne: "This is a great victory for us. Kuja, your black mages made
this conquest so simple. My only concern now is finding the
king of Burmecia. We must take care of him once and for all,
and prevent these rats from ever rising up again. Beatrix,
what's taking so long!?"

Beatrix: "I don't know, Your Majesty. I've ordered Zorn and Thorn
to search the preimeter, but there's been no word so far. I
will join them and lead the search right away."

Kuja: "You're wasting your time."

Beatrix: "What?"

Kuja: "Rats often look for new homes when they sense an earthquake.
They probably moved to the sandy tree house by now... So, you
see, it's too late. The king has already turned tail and fled."

Brahne: "Sandy tree house... Surely, you can't mean Cleyra!? It'll be
quite difficult if they escaped to Cleyra."

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So assuming that Beatrix believed Brahne's claims that the Burmecians were plotting against Alexandrians, it would have been difficult to argue against not attacking Cleyra at all. The use of force was obviously of concern to Beatrix but at the end of the day she realised that she wasn't commander in chief. Turning her back on Brahne at that moment would've been very difficult.

It was only when undeniable proof that Brahne had gone corrupt was offered that Beatrix changed her mind. This proof was the maltreatment of Garnet, someone who she knew to be innocent.

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Originally Posted by Goldenboko

Your not taking into account the perspective of Beatrix. We know that the Eidolons are part of her life force. We know that the horn isn't a vital organ (we saw Garnet alive afterall). But when Dr. Tot recalls the removal he says, "The girl cried out in pain...". The Alexandrians had no idea what they were doing at the time.

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You're forcing out extremely powerful creatures from a girl's body. This releases a large release of energy. And last I checked, large releases of energy were enough to kill people. There's no way she couldn't have figured out something like this, but she's still ignorant and dumb, either way.

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Beatrix wasn't just going to betray Alexandria because she had doubts, all soldiers have doubts. Beatrix made her choice when the need to make one was thrust upon her.

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No, she already made the choice to ignore her doubts, which is quite clear from "I'll kill all enemies of Alexandria!" right before she changed her choice at the last minute.

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Even when Brahne said, "the girl is useless to me" Beatrix was going to deny that meant she was going kill her.

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...which is again, why she's dumb.

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I said HOW IT FLIES. I know it smurfing flies, but I don't know which wire will plummet the plane to the ground if I clip it.

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I dunno man, I think Odin clearly showed her how Eidolons work when he destroyed Cleyra.

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As for unjustification, soldiers do horrible things. I'm not going to debate that, it doesn't make her a bad character in game.

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The fact that Beatrix isn't that different from your typical blindly loyal soldier isn't what makes her a bad character.

What makes her a bad character is the fact that she ignored all signs of doubt that she had and continued to do what she always did until changing her mind at the very last minute over seeing Garnet at risk, even though she already knew that Garnet was at risk.

And the whole "Sorry about killing everybody in Burmecia because Garnet is about to die" as well.

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Originally Posted by Depression Moon

Not quite sure if you know what intangible means

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...can't be seen or touched. She did see Odin, you know. And Odin did touch Cleyra.

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Originally Posted by Vivisteiner

So assuming that Beatrix believed Brahne's claims that the Burmecians were plotting against Alexandrians, it would have been difficult to argue against not attacking Cleyra at all.

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...so? Countries don't vaporize neutral countries because a few soldiers happened to flee to a neutral country. Not to mention that there weren't many Burmecians at all. They killed almost everyone in Burmecia, remember?

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The use of force was obviously of concern to Beatrix but at the end of the day she realised that she wasn't commander in chief. Turning her back on Brahne at that moment would've been very difficult.

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...which is like I said, Beatrix knew that it was wrong, but ignored it.

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It was only when undeniable proof that Brahne had gone corrupt was offered that Beatrix changed her mind. This proof was the maltreatment of Garnet, someone who she knew to be innocent.

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Undeniable proof already occurred with "Garnet's useless, kill her." Not to mention how this still doesn't relate to killing Burmecia, at all.

Wow. I'm like done here. "BEATRIX KNEW THAT ODIN BLEW :bou::bou::bou::bou: UP THEREFORE SHE SHOULD KNOW THE ANATOMY OF A SUMMONER!" Really? I can't even argue with that. You can't even believe that argument. All the info about Summoners came from Kuja and we know how good of a source he is. Your being ridiculous :lol:

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Originally Posted by PuPu

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Originally Posted by Vivisteiner

So assuming that Beatrix believed Brahne's claims that the Burmecians were plotting against Alexandrians, it would have been difficult to argue against not attacking Cleyra at all.

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...so? Countries don't invade neutral countries because a few soldiers happened to flee to a neutral country. Not to mention that there weren't many Burmecians at all. They killed almost everyone in Burmecia, remember?

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That's right, countries invade neutral countries to gain more land and power. Don't tell me they don't because you've been in AP US History so you know that countries have done this all the time.