This is how real life works. People commit atrocities all the time in the name of their country, it isn't unbelievable that a soldier would kill as told when the enemy is strangers. It isn't a huge disbelief that she would refuse to think Brahne would kill Garnet. Her life has been loyalty to the throne.Originally Posted by PuPu
Which is...exactly why she's stupid with stupid blind loyalty like your typical stupid soldier. And her laughably bad transition to "I'll kill all enemies of Alexandria!" to "Citizens of Burmecia, please forgive me" happened in a matter of seconds over a completely unrelated subject (Garnet), which you can clearly tell is forced and poorly written.
...no there wasn't.The reason Garnet's unconciousness caused that effect was because up until then there was always a way (albeit unconvincing) to justify Brahne's actions.
The only reason for genocide was "HURR LET'S TEST OUT HOW POWERFUL THESE EIDOLONS ARE BY SEEING HOW MANY PEOPLE THEY CAN KILL" which is hardly justifiable in any way.But when these actions extended to Garnet - someone who she knew, it become patent that her reasons for genocide were pure fabrications.
Beatrix knew that Brahne was going to steal her Eidolons. There's no way she couldn't have known that this process alone was incredibly wrong and also an action against Garnet. In either case though, she's still incredibly stupid and ignorant.She knew first hand of the innocence of Garnet, and so the actions taken against her could only be condemned.
The fact that she killed all those people isn't the problem. It's the way that she decided her actions were wrong, that's the problem.
It is when Brahne specifically told her that she would kill Garnet. Even if she didn't think Brahne would kill Garnet, she still should have known that stealing her Eidolons would cause severe harm to her as well. In either case, whether Beatrix knew or not, she's still incredibly retarded with a poorly written transition to becoming an ally.It isn't a huge disbelief that she would refuse to think Brahne would kill Garnet. Her life has been loyalty to the throne.
...Why in the world would Beatrix know that taking her Eidolons would hurt her?The summoners where an extinct race on a Continent inhabitants of the Mist Continent never visited, knowledge of their race would be extremely limited.
Was going to say the same. Beatrix has absolutely no reason to know anything about the Eidolons....Why in the world would Beatrix know that taking her Eidolons would hurt her?
As well as this, the destruction of people to test weapons isn't justifiable? She's a soldier who kills people in wars to get more power for her state. It's entirely justifiable in her eyes.
Example Hiroshima, 1945.As well as this, the destruction of people to test weapons isn't justifiable? She's a soldier who kills people in wars to get more power for her state. It's entirely justifiable in her eyes....Why in the world would Beatrix know that taking her Eidolons would hurt her?
...because it's forcibly removing something that's a part of her? Seriously, it isn't that hard to figure out....Why in the world would Beatrix know that taking her Eidolons would hurt her?
But she did know about the Eidolons.
Not when those people are minding their own business and not doing anything to harm you.As well as this, the destruction of people to test weapons isn't justifiable?
...which is why she's nothing more than a retarded and blindly loyal soldier.She's a soldier who kills people in wars to get more power for her state. It's entirely justifiable in her eyes.
Not the same, at all. Japan was an enemy, Cleyra was not an enemy of Alexandria.
No she didn't. Brahne only knew what Kuja told her, and all he bothered telling her were things that would appeal to her nature: AKA dem things blowup. Coupled with the fact that Brahne was a bitch, it's safe to assume that she told Beatrix bugger all about anything. She wouldn't and didn't know that the process was forcibly removing something that was a part of Garnet, either.
You're thinking like you, which is why your argument is so fail. I'm not gonna bother arguing that killing innocent people minding their own business is a great way to test a weapon, because it's obviously wrong. But if you were Brahne, some power hungry psycho looking to forcibly take over the Mist Continent, then yeah I think it's an okay test method.
We also already know that Beatrix is a blindly loyal soldier. That's...well, that's exactly her character and the point of her inclusion in the game. The whole concept is that she's just a big, powerful robot. But she starts having doubts because Brahne's a massive dick, finally culminating in her betrayal when she rescues Garnet.
They removed her horn when she was a baby because the assumed it was the best for her, to someone who doesn't know about Summoners, that would seem a lot more painful then removing intangible creatures....because it's forcibly removing something that's a part of her? Seriously, it isn't that hard to figure out....Why in the world would Beatrix know that taking her Eidolons would hurt her?
Yes, I know what a plane is, I don't know how it flies.But she did know about the Eidolons.
First off, you should really watch how you word things. It's a soldier's job to obey orders, it doesn't make them retarded. Second, yes, that's the point, she's a soldier that kept to her duty until she decided she had to make a choice. Like a better developed Cecil from FFIV.
Lindblum was an enemy of Alexandria the moment Alexandria decided to declare war on, virtually the entire continent. I assumed that you where referring to the scenario in Cleyra where Beatrix used Odin, but insisted her soldiers could've done the job, which was much like using Atomic Bombs on Japan. It was a test to see if how powerful the Eidolons were and once successful, warning to Lindblum (much like how A-Bombing Japan was also a threat against the Soviets, although they countered by making A-Bombs themselves, something Lindblum couldn't do), who was obviously next in line.Not the same, at all. Japan was an enemy, Lindblum was not an enemy of Alexandria.
Odin destroying Cleyra.No she didn't. Brahne only knew what Kuja told her, and all he bothered telling her were things that would appeal to her nature: AKA dem things blow
...lol. She couldn't figure that out from "Extract the Eidolons from Garnet?"She wouldn't and didn't know that the process was forcibly removing something that was a part of Garnet, either.
In this quote: The pot calls the kettle black.You're thinking like you, which is why your argument is so fail.
But this isn't about Brahne.But if you were Brahne, some power hungry psycho looking to forcibly take over the Mist Continent, then yeah I think it's an okay test method.
And she totally ignored all those doubts she had about Brahne and continued to spout blind loyal soldier nonsense such as "I'll kill all enemies of Alexandria!" until the very last minute where the plot forced her to become an ally.We also already know that Beatrix is a blindly loyal soldier. That's...well, that's exactly her character and the point of her inclusion in the game. The whole concept is that she's just a big, powerful robot. But she starts having doubts because Brahne's a massive dick, finally culminating in her betrayal when she rescues Garnet.
...no it wouldn't. Considering that a horn isn't a vital organ or anything like that, and that her Eidolons were essentially part of her life force. Also, "intangible creatures"? Odin destroying Cleyra wasn't intangible.
Odin.Yes, I know what a plane is, I don't know how it flies.
She's retarded due to the fact that she didn't know that Brahne was making up BS about sending her to kill people and wanting to kill Garnet, until the very last minute. Even though there were many signs that told her, though she just ignored them until the very last minute.It's a soldier's job to obey orders, it doesn't make them retarded.
And she made her choice over Garnet, something completely unrelated to killing all of Burmecia, and when Brahne already told her a minutes ago that she was going to kill Garnet.Second, yes, that's the point, she's a soldier that kept to her duty until she decided she had to make a choice.
Yeah, didn't know why I said Lindblum. But that's still unjustified, due to the fact that Cleyra wasn't doing anything but minding their business in their desert city. They weren't enemies of Alexandria because they weren't doing anything toward Alexandria, which is why testing Odin on them was unjustified.I assumed that you where referring to the scenario in Cleyra where Beatrix used Odin, but insisted her soldiers could've done the job, which was much like using Atomic Bombs on Japan.
Your not taking into account the perspective of Beatrix. We know that the Eidolons are part of her life force. We know that the horn isn't a vital organ (we saw Garnet alive afterall). But when Dr. Tot recalls the removal he says, "The girl cried out in pain...". The Alexandrians had no idea what they were doing at the time.
There's a difference between a plot being "forcing" something or the storyline "forcing" something. Beatrix wasn't just going to betray Alexandria because she had doubts, all soldiers have doubts. Beatrix made her choice when the need to make one was thrust upon her. Even when Brahne said, "the girl is useless to me" Beatrix was going to deny that meant she was going kill her. Its like when a president signs to go to war, it'd be much different if he was pointing an M1 Garand at an 18 year old kid's head.
I said HOW IT FLIES. I know it smurfing flies, but I don't know which wire will plummet the plane to the ground if I clip it....no it wouldn't. Considering that a horn isn't a vital organ or anything like that, and that her Eidolons were essentially part of her life force. Also, "intangible creatures"? Odin destroying Cleyra wasn't intangible.
Odin.Yes, I know what a plane is, I don't know how it flies.
As for unjustification, soldiers do horrible things. I'm not going to debate that, it doesn't make her a bad character in game.
I can have a gun stuck in me and Dr.'s nowadays could remove it without killing me. Same concept she doesn't know it will kill her. You're taking facts you know as the audience and assuming the characters know them.
...no it wouldn't. Considering that a horn isn't a vital organ or anything like that, and that her Eidolons were essentially part of her life force.to someone who doesn't know about SummonersNot quite sure if you know what intangible meansAlso, "intangible creatures"? Odin destroying Cleyra wasn't intangible.
You forget that many Burmecians retreated to Cleyra, including the King. Thus Brahne's argument would have been that Cleyra was harbouring those who would plot to destroy Alexandria, and so her only option would be to destroy it utterly.Yeah, didn't know why I said Lindblum. But that's still unjustified, due to the fact that Cleyra wasn't doing anything but minding their business in their desert city. They weren't enemies of Alexandria because they weren't doing anything toward Alexandria, which is why testing Odin on them was unjustified.
See this quote from the game:
So assuming that Beatrix believed Brahne's claims that the Burmecians were plotting against Alexandrians, it would have been difficult to argue against not attacking Cleyra at all. The use of force was obviously of concern to Beatrix but at the end of the day she realised that she wasn't commander in chief. Turning her back on Brahne at that moment would've been very difficult.
It was only when undeniable proof that Brahne had gone corrupt was offered that Beatrix changed her mind. This proof was the maltreatment of Garnet, someone who she knew to be innocent.
"They said this day would never come. They said our sights were set too high. They said this country was too divided, too disillusioned to ever come around a common purpose. But on this January night, at this defining moment in history, you have done what the cynics said we couldn't do." - Barack Obama.
clicky clicky clicky
You're forcing out extremely powerful creatures from a girl's body. This releases a large release of energy. And last I checked, large releases of energy were enough to kill people. There's no way she couldn't have figured out something like this, but she's still ignorant and dumb, either way.
No, she already made the choice to ignore her doubts, which is quite clear from "I'll kill all enemies of Alexandria!" right before she changed her choice at the last minute.Beatrix wasn't just going to betray Alexandria because she had doubts, all soldiers have doubts. Beatrix made her choice when the need to make one was thrust upon her.
...which is again, why she's dumb.Even when Brahne said, "the girl is useless to me" Beatrix was going to deny that meant she was going kill her.
I dunno man, I think Odin clearly showed her how Eidolons work when he destroyed Cleyra.I said HOW IT FLIES. I know it smurfing flies, but I don't know which wire will plummet the plane to the ground if I clip it.
The fact that Beatrix isn't that different from your typical blindly loyal soldier isn't what makes her a bad character.As for unjustification, soldiers do horrible things. I'm not going to debate that, it doesn't make her a bad character in game.
What makes her a bad character is the fact that she ignored all signs of doubt that she had and continued to do what she always did until changing her mind at the very last minute over seeing Garnet at risk, even though she already knew that Garnet was at risk.
And the whole "Sorry about killing everybody in Burmecia because Garnet is about to die" as well.
...can't be seen or touched. She did see Odin, you know. And Odin did touch Cleyra.
Last edited by PuPu; 04-25-2010 at 07:29 PM.
...so? Countries don't vaporize neutral countries because a few soldiers happened to flee to a neutral country. Not to mention that there weren't many Burmecians at all. They killed almost everyone in Burmecia, remember?
...which is like I said, Beatrix knew that it was wrong, but ignored it.The use of force was obviously of concern to Beatrix but at the end of the day she realised that she wasn't commander in chief. Turning her back on Brahne at that moment would've been very difficult.
Undeniable proof already occurred with "Garnet's useless, kill her." Not to mention how this still doesn't relate to killing Burmecia, at all.It was only when undeniable proof that Brahne had gone corrupt was offered that Beatrix changed her mind. This proof was the maltreatment of Garnet, someone who she knew to be innocent.
Last edited by PuPu; 04-25-2010 at 07:59 PM.
Wow. I'm like done here. "BEATRIX KNEW THAT ODIN BLEW
That's right, countries invade neutral countries to gain more land and power. Don't tell me they don't because you've been in AP US History so you know that countries have done this all the time....so? Countries don't invade neutral countries because a few soldiers happened to flee to a neutral country. Not to mention that there weren't many Burmecians at all. They killed almost everyone in Burmecia, remember?
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