Metal Gear Rising......Revengeance?

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Originally Posted by Shattered Dreamer

What wasn't wrapped up from MGS3, admittedly I've never played Peace Walker (I have to wait until February 2012 for the HD collection European release)? Seriously enlighten me because I can't think of anything they missed.

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What caused the rift between Big Boss and his comrades.

Why he chose armed resistance and non-hegemony as his interpretation of the Boss' Will.

Why the bipedal design for a nuclear-equipped tank came back into prominence.

Through what means did Outer Heaven start.

What did Big Boss do after the events of Operation Snake Eater?

What was the deal with The Boss' space mission.

How involved was Otacon's grandfather with his research hinted at in Snake Eater.

Peace Walker deals with all of these things. I don't think the issue is hanging plot threads, though. Certainly you don't need loose ends to make a sequel, and it usually damages the overall quality of the plot when there are gaping unanswered questions. My issue with continuing MGS4 is that all of the characters have finality to their stories. Furthermore, the mindset that caused the world to be the way it was in MGS was at an end. There will probably still be wars, but there's no longer a need for soldiers like Jack and David. With Big Boss, you got a lot of history and material developers can really get their hands dirty with. And there's overall a lot more that can be done with the Cold War, Call of Duty: Black Ops and Peace Walker being great examples of that.

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Originally Posted by Vivi22

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Let the poor man move on, he's only been asking fans for ten years now. :roll2

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He's not writing this game, or directing it. Another developer entirely is actually making the thing. How is that not letting him move on?

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It's Kojima, if it has Metal Gear in the title he's involved on some level, same as when Portable OPS and Ac!d were developed, he still overlooked the product for quality assurance since he is still fuming over Snake's Revenge.

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And honestly, here's the problem I have with fans crying out to let him move on at this point: he can move on at any time. He doesn't have to make another MGS title for he rest of his life. Konami can certainly ask him to, but he's one of the only well known Japanese game designers who could go off on his own and be swimming in investors to start up a new developer who hasn't already done it. If he's sick of doing MGS games, he certainly has the clout to outright tell Konami he's going to do something else or walk, and probably have them bend over backwards to keep him if only because they have no one else. Kojima is the only one over there who has been consistently putting out titles that are actually worth playing for years.

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He does it because the fans and staff beg him to return. Yes, he could walk away whenever he wanted and tell the fans to "suck it" but he's too nice and MGS is his baby and he can't quit it. That's why we love him because he's not some total self centered "artist" creator who whines when he doesn't get his way like the RE creator or DoA's creator, and ridicules the fans for not appreciating their work. He wants to quit but he won't because the fans keep demanding, so who's really being selfish here?

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

1. I'm not sure why people are saying Snake/Otacon/Raiden/Sunny all had their stories wrapped up and there's no more stories to tell after MGS4. You make it sound like MGS3 and Peace Walker don't exist.

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Considering they are prequels and one was pretty much answered pretty well with MGS4, that's really lousy evidence for a post MGS4 story. Also Sunny and Otacon are pretty boring on their own and only work as foils to Snake and Raiden. Snake's days are numbered and most fans whined when Kojima hinted about killing him in MGS4, so I can't imagine anyone would let him do Snake's final days unless the twist is that Snake reverses all of his problems through the magic of nanomachines.

Raiden is getting a game and I don't care about that, but I was never interested in Raiden so if the franchise wishes to continue with him, that's fine but I'll probably stop paying attention. Yet seriously, Big Boss' story is already getting convulated with Portable OPS and Peace Walker. How many more Prequel/interquels does the man need? It's kind of hard to make them compelling when you know how it all ends. I can see him finally doing some remakes for Metal Gear and Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake, but I believe he's already said he's not interested in doing anything like that.

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2. Wolf, I hate to say it, but it's been confirmed: You're not a Metal Gear fan. Not being interested in buying a PSP is one thing, but if you actually own the game and can able to resist playing it, you're just not a fan of the series. Privileges revoked!!!

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Says the man who won't play Portable OPS and has never talked once about Ac!d or Ghost Babel. I'm calling your credentials out. :p Besides my reluctance to play Peace Walker stems from my lukewarm feelings about MGS4's gameplay. I love MGS, but I'm not sure if I could deal with another semi-3rd person shooter entry, especially dealing with my fave character. Whereas you rejoice with every new entry, I see it as another entry that holds the potential to tarnish the franchise for me.

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3. Don't tell me about "poor Kojima." Poor Kojima is on the board of directors of one of the largest video game publishers in the world. He's stated in many interviews that since MGS3 he's always intended to hand the games off to one of his proteges, but once development gets started he can't help but jump back into the hot seat. Considering how far out of left field Peace Walker came, it seems like that was something he really wanted to do himself.

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As I said to Vivi22, he does it because he's asked to. He's tried unsuccessfully to move away from the series before. Does he still love MGS? Hell yeah, I won't deny that, but he's also voiced that he wants to make something new (Project Ogre certainly has me intrigued, especially since its supposedly very different from his other games). This isn't about him being unhappy with MGS, this is just about him being bored and probably realizing like some of us have, that MGS as a narrative has run its course, and unlike other long lived franchises, is actual an awesome roller coaster ride from beginning to end. Why risk running a great franchise into the ground? Just let MGS4 finish Snake and Big Boss's stories, and let MGS take its place as one of the greatest franchises to ever grace gaming. Its played its course as a story and as an innovator in gaming, now its just about self-indulgence. I mean Peace Walker may be a fantastic game, but it doesn't change that it really didn't have to be made.

George Washington was asked to become President for life, but he chose to step down, which set him apart from any other president the U.S. ever had, why can't MGS be the "George Washington" of gaming and bow out on a high note, instead of running the risk of being run into the ground?

[QUOTE=Bolivar;3042083]

What caused the rift between Big Boss and his comrades.[quote]

MGS4 pretty much says this and so does Portable OPS to some extent

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Why he chose armed resistance and non-hegemony as his interpretation of the Boss' Will.

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MGS4 covered that...

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Why the bipedal design for a nuclear-equipped tank came back into prominence.

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MG, MG2, and MGS1 could tell you that. MGS4 revealed why Big Boss wanted it.

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Through what means did Outer Heaven start.

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Portable OPS, MGS1, and MGS4 tell you enough about this to get the hint.

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What did Big Boss do after the events of Operation Snake Eater?

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Portable OPS, MGS1, MGS4, and MG2:SS all tell you what he's been doing since Snake Eater.

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What was the deal with The Boss' space mission.

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I honestly don't think anyone cared about what was ultimately a throw away statement in MGS3.

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How involved was Otacon's grandfather with his research hinted at in Snake Eater.

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Enough to spawn MGS1 and other MGS sequels, not to mention enough to kind of retcon Dr. Madnar as the original creator of Metal Gear but then again Portable OPS did this as well. http://forums.eyesonff.com/images/eoff_smilies/wink.gif

So why did Peace Walker have to be made again when most of these questions can be answered by other entries in the franchise? As I said, it's just self-gratification at this point from a story standpoint. The series has answered most of the questions and at this point we're simply just fleshing out stuff and littering the franchise with more retcons.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

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Originally Posted by Shattered Dreamer

What wasn't wrapped up from MGS3, admittedly I've never played Peace Walker (I have to wait until February 2012 for the HD collection European release)? Seriously enlighten me because I can't think of anything they missed.

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What caused the rift between Big Boss and his comrades.

Why he chose armed resistance and non-hegemony as his interpretation of the Boss' Will.

Why the bipedal design for a nuclear-equipped tank came back into prominence.

Through what means did Outer Heaven start.

What did Big Boss do after the events of Operation Snake Eater?

What was the deal with The Boss' space mission.

How involved was Otacon's grandfather with his research hinted at in Snake Eater.

Peace Walker deals with all of these things. I don't think the issue is hanging plot threads, though. Certainly you don't need loose ends to make a sequel, and it usually damages the overall quality of the plot when there are gaping unanswered questions. My issue with continuing MGS4 is that all of the characters have finality to their stories. Furthermore, the mindset that caused the world to be the way it was in MGS was at an end. There will probably still be wars, but there's no longer a need for soldiers like Jack and David. With Big Boss, you got a lot of history and material developers can really get their hands dirty with. And there's overall a lot more that can be done with the Cold War, Call of Duty: Black Ops and Peace Walker being great examples of that.

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I look forward to Peace Walker ! I am not however sure they should explore Big Boss any further. Big Boss has gone from being "the elephant in the room" as regards Solid Snake's past to within 2 games being painted as in fact the hero all along who stood up for what he believed in. When you consider this, diving further into Big Boss is only going to do more bad then good, he went from Hero to Villain & back to Hero.

Even though Big Boss was fighting against Major Zero & the Patriots at the back of it all along the way he became a power hungry ego maniac who sought to create a haven for soldiers. This point in Big Boss' mythology should stay a black spot to the MGS fan base! Like it or not Kojima & co, in light of the hero created through MGS3 & MGS4, wouldn't present Big Boss as a straight up villain & would try to go the anti-hero route. If they do that the end result would cheapen the life experience that made Solid Snake the man he was in MGS & instead make him into basically to put it bluntly an emo with major Daddy issues. It would also damage the moment at the end of MGS4 when Big Boss admits his mistakes.

Regardless of what direction the MG series goes next I think Solid Snake & Big Boss should play no further active part.

Side bar: I thought the story telling in COD: Black Ops was very poor. All the Cold War setting did was lead to interesting levels to play from that period of history. The story telling in the Modern Warfare series is alot better.

Truth behind Rising Video Released:
INTERVIEW : The Truth Behind RISING - YouTube

Pretty interesting watch. Kinda long though.

That interview now has me very very worried about this game. One of Platinum's people said it best, Platinum focus on making things look cool & Kojima & Co go for realism. Putting these 2 together screams clustersmurf to me. On the bright side, if it's terrible Kojima will definitely make MGS5 :lol:

That's not really what I took from that comment at all, especially since they were talking specifically about how they go about making cutscenes if I'm not mistaken (which admittedly I may be after a 14 hour work day). But they were also pretty clear about saying that Platinum Games is not only out to do what they do best, but that they have the support of Kojima Productions in that regard as well. Considering everything in the trailer was basically classic Platinum Games style, I'm really not too worried. They're definitely on my short list of developers that I would trust completely to make something mind blowingly fun these days.

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Originally Posted by Vivi22

That's not really what I took from that comment at all, especially since they were talking specifically about how they go about making cutscenes if I'm not mistaken (which admittedly I may be after a 14 hour work day). But they were also pretty clear about saying that Platinum Games is not only out to do what they do best, but that they have the support of Kojima Productions in that regard as well. Considering everything in the trailer was basically classic Platinum Games style, I'm really not too worried. They're definitely on my short list of developers that I would trust completely to make something mind blowingly fun these days.

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The comment was indeed made about cut scenes but after watching that I think it rings true from top to bottom. I applaud Kojima for approaching Platinum Games when his "winning team" creatively hit a brick wall. But, trusting the MG series to a development team without a big series of their own merit is a Grand Canyon sized leap of faith & I hope it doesn't blow up in Kojima's face.

I know I've said this before but you know the guys who founded Platinum Games worked on, among other things, the Resident Evil series, Devil May Cry, Viewtiful Joe, Okami, and a bunch of other titles, not to mention that Bayonetta and Vanquish were quite well received, and while Bayonetta isn't my thing I'd say it was still great at what it did while Vanquish is ont of my favourite games of this console generation.

Not to even mention that a lot of people who worked for Clover before it was shut down moved on to Platinum Games as I understand it. I don't think you can have a better resume than basically creating some of the most popular and acclaimed series that Capcom put out in the last 15 years. These guys are definitely not new to the industry and have a lot of experience working on great franchises.

My buddy Gus was invited to chat with Kojima at Konami earlier this week about this game. Here's his writeup.

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Originally Posted by nirojan

Stealth Will Return in Next Metal Gear Solid Sequel

When asked about the stealth in rising, he responded that there'll be no stealth mechanics, but not to worry since the next MGS sequel will have stealth. Bummer MGS4 was such a great highnote to end the series on.

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He also thought there was stealth in MGS4, when in practice it turned out to be a ho-hum third person shooter which let you press X to lie on the floor.

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Originally Posted by Old Manus

He also thought there was stealth in MGS4, when in practice it turned out to be a ho-hum third person shooter which let you press X to lie on the floor.

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But stealth is still the most effective way to play and the game rewards you the most for that style.

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Originally Posted by Wolf

Considering they are prequels and one was pretty much answered pretty well with MGS4, that's really lousy evidence for a post MGS4 story.

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I guess I should've clarified my first point. I actually expressly say I don't think there should be post-MGS4 stories because all those characters have finality in that game, and there's a limited amount to their "fill in the blanks" tales, although Raiden in Area 51 rescuing Sunny is one to see. I'm just saying the comments that we should give MGS a rest because Snake/Otacon/Sunny have their stories wrapped up ignores the other timeline in the franchise, arguably the better one.

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I thought the story telling in COD: Black Ops was very poor. All the Cold War setting did was lead to interesting levels to play from that period of history. The story telling in the Modern Warfare series is alot better.

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But Modern Warfare doesn't have storytelling! It's a collection of random missions loosely tied together by dialogue on loading screens. The "twist" in the second game had no justification at all, but even if you read between the lines for its explanation, it's still not plausible. And by "series" I hope you mean 1 & 2 because 3's campaign is horrible.

Black Ops, on the other hand, had a long of awesome moments from the Cold War setting and they weren't afraid to allow the main character to speak. It was a story much more revolved around its main character, and even his comrades each got epic moments of their own. I'm not saying it's on par with Coppola or Stone, but it was certainly a fun adventure that showed how much you can do with this source material.

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Originally Posted by WK

Yet seriously, Big Boss' story is already getting convulated with Portable OPS and Peace Walker.

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How would you know?

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How many more Prequel/interquels does the man need? It's kind of hard to make them compelling when you know how it all ends.

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Again, how would you know how difficult it was to make Peace Walker compelling? Also, are you saying MGS3 wasn't compelling!?

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Says the man who won't play Portable OPS and has never talked once about Ac!d or Ghost Babel.

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I play MGS because of the vision, quality, and trademark style Kojima brings to his games. It's why it only took me about 4 minutes to realize Twin Snakes is not for me.

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As I said to Vivi22, he does it because he's asked to.

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I really don't think so. As I've mentioned, he's said in interviews that he jumps in after his staff already have the project going. Also, I think I speak for most MGS fans that I was legitimately surprised when Peace Walker and Rising were announced.

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So why did Peace Walker have to be made again when most of these questions can be answered by other entries in the franchise?

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That sounds like you think a game needs a reason to be made in order for you to accept its existence. But again, like I said at the end of my response to Shattered Dreamer, I don't think it's an issue of hanging plot threads. After all, questions might be better left unanswered, as that was how a lot was supposed to be left in MGS2. But Kojima's proved through SE and PW that there's a lot of awesome things you can do with that back story. Do I want there to be 5,000 games about Big Boss? No. I agree that David should get some rest, but I would absolutely love to see another BB title. I mean the last game can be played in its entirety co-operatively, that's a pretty huge deviation for the franchise. And I'm craving a new Metal Gear Online outing because of just how good it was in MGS4, especially with their post-launch content.

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George Washington was asked to become President for life, but he chose to step down, which set him apart from any other president the U.S. ever had, why can't MGS be the "George Washington" of gaming and bow out on a high note, instead of running the risk of being run into the ground?

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Because George Washington was a free mason who worshipped satan and wanted to create a doorway to hell. Obviously.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

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Originally Posted by Wolf

Considering they are prequels and one was pretty much answered pretty well with MGS4, that's really lousy evidence for a post MGS4 story.

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I guess I should've clarified my first point. I actually expressly say I don't think there should be post-MGS4 stories because all those characters have finality in that game, and there's a limited amount to their "fill in the blanks" tales, although Raiden in Area 51 rescuing Sunny is one to see. I'm just saying the comments that we should give MGS a rest because Snake/Otacon/Sunny have their stories wrapped up ignores the other timeline in the franchise, arguably the better one.

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Well that certainly makes more sense, and we could have had that Raiden plot had they decided not to change Rising.

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Originally Posted by WK

Yet seriously, Big Boss' story is already getting convulated with Portable OPS and Peace Walker.

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How would you know?

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Cause I played Portable OPS and despite your feelings and the fact Kojima did work on the title, it is canonical. The MGS Database that came with MGS4 could also tell you if you did enough reading and its not like MGS4 giant reveal about the Patriots and the rise of Big Boss speech by Eva didn't certainly complicate matters. So I guess my answer is that since I've played most of the series, my evaluation is that a twist boss from the first game suddenly being transformed into a tragic hero figure that is largely been fighting a secret covert war against the ideals of a former friend all based on the memory of a mentor who died tragically, is kind of a big leap, especially when you consider its mostly been introduced in the last few years of the franchises lifespan.

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How many more Prequel/interquels does the man need? It's kind of hard to make them compelling when you know how it all ends.

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Again, how would you know how difficult it was to make Peace Walker compelling? Also, are you saying MGS3 wasn't compelling!?

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Its not about MGS3, its about the fact these games are being made in-between other entries and pieces to a narrative that is mostly complete. I'm pretty damn sure Peace Walker's story is fantastic but seriously, how much more tragic and badass does BB need to be? We got the point with MGS3 and MGS4, we really don't need MPO or PW to spell it out for us. For the most part, the console entries have pretty much left the player with more than enough knowledge about BB's life and reasoning. At this point were making sequels for the sake of it, but we forgive the MGS team and Kojima because the quality is superb.

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Says the man who won't play Portable OPS and has never talked once about Ac!d or Ghost Babel.

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I play MGS because of the vision, quality, and trademark style Kojima brings to his games. It's why it only took me about 4 minutes to realize Twin Snakes is not for me.

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So you're just going to ignore an entry that is canonical because Kojima didn't personally create every aspect of it? Tells me you're more of a Kojima fan than an MGS fan. Where was this sentiment when the Compilation of VII was being built without Sakeguchi?

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As I said to Vivi22, he does it because he's asked to.

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I really don't think so. As I've mentioned, he's said in interviews that he jumps in after his staff already have the project going. Also, I think I speak for most MGS fans that I was legitimately surprised when Peace Walker and Rising were announced.

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Not from what I've read, he usually mentions the team asks him to come back or check things they've done cause they ask for advice, and before he knows it, he's now taking over the project because everyone wants him to and he's given so much advise and helped craft so many elements he's practically directing the project anyway. As I said, it's not that he hates MGS, but he's more than once said he would like to move on, and has even mentioned that he's tried to kill Snake off for good so he wouldn't have to make any more. His tune has changed lately as he's accepted his fate to be the "MGS Guy" which is nice, but yeah, I'd rather see what else the man can do. He's a very innovative thinker and it would be interesting to see him apply his quirky sense of style and innovation to other genres or new IPs rather than watch him to continue to reinvent the same series over and over again.

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So why did Peace Walker have to be made again when most of these questions can be answered by other entries in the franchise?

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That sounds like you think a game needs a reason to be made in order for you to accept its existence. But again, like I said at the end of my response to Shattered Dreamer, I don't think it's an issue of hanging plot threads. After all, questions might be better left unanswered, as that was how a lot was supposed to be left in MGS2. But Kojima's proved through SE and PW that there's a lot of awesome things you can do with that back story. Do I want there to be 5,000 games about Big Boss? No. I agree that David should get some rest, but I would absolutely love to see another BB title. I mean the last game can be played in its entirety co-operatively, that's a pretty huge deviation for the franchise. And I'm craving a new Metal Gear Online outing because of just how good it was in MGS4, especially with their post-launch content.

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Not so much a game, as much as a story. Part of the reason I've always been against direct sequels to FF titles stems not just from my belief of what FF means, but also just the rational realization that there really is no reason for a sequel because the original actually covers it all. My feeling is that MGS4 really did close the franchise, yes their is a lot of potential for prequels but I also feel they will dilute the franchise as it becomes just the episodic misadventures of everyone's favorite tragic hero, as opposed to a strong narrative that continues to expand the characters in meaningful ways. Making sequels for the sake of simple demand, is not the same as making a sequel because there is more to say. While I'm sure Peace Walker will easily expand BB and the cast in more meaningful ways, it is more likely due to Kojima's craftsmanship rather than there actually being something relevant to say.

As for MGO or another entry with amusing gameplay, I'm not actually opposed to it. I'm not so much against the MGS game series being expanded, as much as I'm against the MGS narrative being expanded. MPO and MGS4 kind of brought in some stuff I didn't care for about the world or some of the characters and it's this elements that have made me hesitant to see the world of SS/BB be expanded, because I feel it occasionally slips into some bad ideas that kind of undermines the story.

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George Washington was asked to become President for life, but he chose to step down, which set him apart from any other president the U.S. ever had, why can't MGS be the "George Washington" of gaming and bow out on a high note, instead of running the risk of being run into the ground?

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Because George Washington was a free mason who worshipped satan and wanted to create a doorway to hell. Obviously.

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Someone has been watching the History Channel ;)

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

So you're just going to ignore an entry that is canonical because Kojima didn't personally create every aspect of it? Tells me you're more of a Kojima fan than an MGS fan. Where was this sentiment when the Compilation of VII was being built without Sakeguchi?

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I've never played nor did I approve of any game in the compilation!!! But still, even you have to admit that FFVII was not the vision of a single creator. Sakaguchi only co-wrote the original story, in addition to his oversight as a producer. But in the PlayStation underground preview he very much stressed that this was Kitase's game.

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My feeling is that MGS4 really did close the franchise, yes their is a lot of potential for prequels but I also feel they will dilute the franchise as it becomes just the episodic misadventures of everyone's favorite tragic hero, as opposed to a strong narrative that continues to expand the characters in meaningful ways.

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You know man I really understand where you're coming from, I feel like this is definitely what happened to the Song of Ice and Fire series and it's a real shame. I will admit my thing is partially for selfish reasons, I really like these games, the stories always make me go "holy smurf" and I enjoy them from a gameplay perspective as a game I put back in the tray as soon as I'm done; I like going back and trying new equipment, new play styles and new difficulties. But that's really been something that I started doing with 3 and 4. I would do it with Peace Walker but the game essentially has an entire VR missions-like game packed inside, and I'm still not done with them.

But I'm sick of the group of elitists who hated MGS4 so much that they argue that it was never supposed to be made. I don't think you're like this, but The Snake Soup recently released an awesome video about MGS2 and reality, but they devote a big portion to how MGS3 and later 4 were never meant to exist and kind of ends in a way that makes you think that it was the entire point of the video.

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As for MGO or another entry with amusing gameplay, I'm not actually opposed to it. I'm not so much against the MGS game series being expanded, as much as I'm against the MGS narrative being expanded.

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Yeah, and that's another thing that was cool about MGO: Kojima has stated he doesn't like multiplayer games, so this effectively was a younger team's chance to take Metal Gear and do something different. It didnt' encroach on the story and, oddly for a Japanese developer, brought a lot of cool things to multiplayer that Western shooter devs are just implementing now. They did a real good job.

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Someone has been watching the History Channel ;)

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IT AIN'T HISTORY, IT'S STILL GOIN ON TODAY, G!

Rising's lead platform is the PS3!
Metal Gear Solid Rising Lead Platform is PlayStation 3 -- Andriasang.com

If you guys remember back to Bayonetta when the 360 was the lead platform the PS3 version was the WORST PORT EVAR and since then Platinum has been developing with PS3 as their lead platform (see Vanquish). Seems they'll be continuing their trend.

^ Good move, it seems like a lot of the big devs have switched over to this model. It's nice to know if I ever pick this game up on the cheap, it won't be a shoddy port.

Also wanted to say in that "Truth of Metal Gear Rising" video, it really seems like Yoji Shinkawa had a big "WTF is this Bullish!?" moment when he saw the changes with Rising.