Blade is better than both.
Printable View
Blade is better than both.
...You know, I would love to argue against that, but I can't. Blade managed to cut out the excess that bogged down Saga and Gears. Finally the guy learned just how much content can be put into a single game, and Blade came out complete in a way he had yet to do.
Still got more enjoyment out of Saga though. :p
I found Saga's cast to be much, much more interesting than Blade's on a whole.
I fully agree with you, but I think in the end Blade is arguably the game with the least amount of things done wrong. :p
But does Blade do the things it does right better than Gears or Saga?
My defense of Gears since I replayed it a year ago is that it is a flawed game...but it does the things it does right really damn well so I can forgive it.
Terrible dungeons? Check.
Characters being totally forgotten or useless? Check.
Combat getting old really fast? Check.
But...
A plot that kept me thirsting for more from start to finish? Double check.
An unrivaled masterpiece of a soundtrack? Triple check.
More ambition than seen in almost any video game before or since? Quadruple check.
There are certainly games that are "better" as a whole. They got fun gameplay and a nice story and a cool soundtrack. Maybe they don't even let entire characters drop off the map never to be head from again.
But I didn't love any character in the game like I did with Gears.
I didn't get all weepy-eyed like I did with Gears' soundtrack.
I didn't come away thinking about all the fascinating spiritual and psychological themes like I did with Gears.
There's a reason Xenogears is such a divisive game. If you are not spellbound by the magic of the plot and music and (some) characters? You're gonna hate this game. You're gonna see nothing but a butt-ass ugly pile of crap with a broken combat system.
Oh yeah, the graphics - that's another big flaw. Those have hurt my eye ever since I first played the game. God they suck.
I think my issue is that we know he's manipualting everything but we don't know until almost the end what his goal was, whereas you figure out Miang's goal by the 2/3rd mark of Gears. My issue really is that he spends two games just plotting in the background and you don't really see much pay off until halfway through Episode 3, so for me Wilhelm's lack of meaningful (to the player) involvement just kind of makes him overshadowed by the villains who are front and center. I can honestly say I was more invested in Albedo and Yuriev than I ever was for Wilhelm because at least I was getting some actual payoff from their stories consistently through the three games, whereas I felt I spent most of Saga just waiting for Wilhelm to actually do something. I just feel like the writers dropped the ball with him and you get like 90% of his actual development in the 11th hour of the plot.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoCracker
My issue is, that I find it amusing some of you are talking like Wilhelm was inherently good, when his role was that of the Demiurge in Gnostic thought (His true counterpart in Xenogears would actually be Deus itself, but since Deus is a literal but symbolic representation of the being while Wilhelm is the Demiurge, I didn't feel it was a fair comparison) which is the primary antagonist in Gnostic beleif and what both Xenogears and especially Xenosaga borrow as inspiration. Also rewatching Wilhelm's final scenes in Episode 3, he is a condescending bastard who se dialogue largely suggests he looks down on humanity so I don't buy the idea that his noble cause somehow makes him intentionally a nice person. Krelian himself has a noble cause but Krelian also mentions the hypocricy of his actions and goals in the ending of Gears, where he mentions he had to make himself into a monster in order to achieve his goal and thus he knows he can never be forgiven by anyone other than God himself. Wilhelm really doesn't have that paradox, and his inhuman origin makes him exempt from morality concerning humans, at least in his mind since he was willing to sacrifice so much to get his job done. I guess in the end, my issue with Wilhelm is that I don't really believe his actual entrance onto the scene lived up to the hype of two and half games. Miang never had a grand entrace either but her subtle way of being involved in everything was pretty impressive.
I'm not going to bother with the semantics debate, but I am going to highlight this as part of my issue with Margulis. Yes, he has a past with Jin, but what is it? They trained together and served together but other than that, the truth behind their bad blood is never actually gone into. What motivates Margulis? I mean yes, he's a religious fanantic, but why is he the fanantic when the rest of Ormus doesn't seem as concerned. Why does Ormus mean so much to him? Who was Margulis in the past? Did his parents influence him and that's why he's fanatical? This is my issue with Margulis. He has no anima, which is baffling because even minor characters like Cherenkov get really detailed backgrounds yet the game never felt it was important to delve into who Margulis is, you just hear a detail or two secondhand from Pellegri and Jin and I feel all three have a fairly ambiguous relationship due to the lack of details, which makes any development from Margulis lose its impact. I mean we know more about Kevin and he has a tenth of the amount of screentime that Margulis has. I'm not saying Margulis is a bad character, he's just not a very developed one, and I feel that Ramsus was not only better developed but his growth as a character was important to the story whereas Margulis just plays the role of a menacing fanatical leader to keep the party busy while the real players (Albedo, Yuriev, and Wilhelm) are actually running the show. I like Margulis, he was a fun character but if I'm comparing him to people with depth, he is utterly lacking. In fact all of the people associated with Ormus/U-TIC get little to no character development except for Cherenkov who was easily one of the best characters in Episode 1.Quote:
And Margulis also get's a bit more development with Jin. It's clear their connections are more then just Margulis and his goals. True, Margulis may not be the deepest character ever, but it doesn't change the development he does get is well done, and he fulfills his role in the plot smurfing marvelously.
This was one of the underlying issues I have with Xenosaga is that its franchise nature really did a number on the plot in terms of keeping it consistent. I'm kind of annoyed that the cell phone game, is probably one of the most important games in the franchise and not only was it presented on a terrible platform (I can only imagine what the actual gameplay was) but remained a Japanese exclusive. Yoyager is a fascinating villain but you'll never really know unless you play Pied Piper, not to mention the big revelation about Canaan in Episode 3. Thank god the Internet allows people to circumvent getting screwed out of some of this exclusive stuff but I can't help feel it would have been better to not bother going that marketing route in the first place.Quote:
It was kind of troutty we never got Piep Piper, but aside from him I still really enjoy all the villains development. Only Sellers I felt got the short end of the stick, and Voyager in the absence of Piep Piper. Yuriev certainly got more with Pied Piper, but from his entrance in 2 followed up by his involvement in 3, he got plenty of development.
No no, there was no set-up, don't try to hand me that pretentious symbolism foreshadowing crap about the realian girls, especially since they are dead and Albedo is basically being carried off like a smurfing Renaissance painting, there is no way that line is some clever setup for this silly scene that really just sucks the drama out of two brothers saying goodbye. It was silly, pointless, and pretentious. I'll agree the Billy scene is handled badly, but I disagree that his whole arc was handled badly. I also like Maria's story because it sets us up for learning more about the purpose of the Wells, and what happened to Old Man Bal's family.Quote:
The Albedo Angel scene was at least foreshadowed as far back as game one. The exact quote being... "Why do you hurt everyone? My sisters, they all loved something they saw in you. Even after all that you put them through, they still believed in you. How can you desecrate their feelings -- their hearts!?"
It is hurt by never really seeing that side of Albedo, at least not prior to game 3, but it still makes sense they would be there for him at the end. All that was wrong was they went overboard on the imagery. This, in no way compares, to giant battle bunny.
Or even worse giant crucified bunny.
Honestly, considering how screwed the party was if Yuriev had kept them, I would say Albedo handing it over was in their best interest, besides, its not like Albedo got to come back for free, so it was his dirty deed so he could save his brothers and get rid of Yuriev and I feel that's a fair trade for him. I don't consider his actions villainous, just doing his side of the bargain. If memory serves me correct doesn't Wilhelm even mention that Albedo really wasn't devoted to the cause?Quote:
...Noble? His goal was entirely selfish. To save his brother. Certainly not a bad thing, though he still handed Wilhelm the Zohar without any real quams. The warning came just to keep his brother safe, it's never really implied that the others, or even the world, factored into this. 'Good guy' kind of fits, but it's a bit of a stretch, though that really is an argument of semantics. :p
Well first off, damn, you must believe that Mother Teresa never lied a day of her life, or that Charles Manson was only capable of eating babies and kicking puppies. :pQuote:
And to end, yes, I understand Krellian's motivations. I just call bulltrout. To describe, I'll draw a different parallell to him. If we connect Wilhelm and Miang, it would make sense to pair up Krellian with Kevin. Much like Krellian, it was kevin's plans to create KOS-MOS and T-Elos, and acted to free the world from the looming fear of death.
However, at the end, he gets scolded, for lack of better term, that what he is doing is not for the good of all, but more him running away from his own humanity.
This is Krellian, only that's never really addressed and we are expected to believe it was done purely out of love. Pay no mind to the scenes of the past were he grows some obviously powerful feelings of Jealousy and other things when Elly chooses Lacan over him. The game ends by telling us love guided these actions. :roll2
So yes, I do get it and see what they were doing. I just think they did a trout job at it.
Krelian was written like all the rest of the cast, and is a flawed person. He was super jealous with Lacan, but when you watch the woman you love die and discover later it was set up that way by the people you thought were your friends and allies and all of this makes you completely lose faith in religion or any cause... I can see some guy going a bit crazy and deciding to make the world a better place whether humanity wants it or not. The jealousy angle never plays in again after Sophia's death, even capturing Elly had more to do with Krelians plan than him trying to date his ex-not-girlfriend's reincarnation and had more to do with the fact that as the Antitype, she has a use for controlling Deus and is a nice means to get Fei and Co. to come when he needs them to. Krelains loses everything and decided that no one should suffer like that, so he incorporates a plan to resurrect Deus and then use his power to force humanity into the higher dimensions and ascend to the realm of god where individuality and petty human concerns cease to be.
He pretty much says all this in his conversation with Fei before the final throw away boss fight. Krelian, like Kevin, gets called out on being a selfish jerk though. Fei's whole dialogue with Krelian was him basically telling Krelian that he was running away and that forcing humanity to go with him was selfish and wrong, Krelian then has Fei battle Urobolus and after Fei proves his conviction of the idea that a flawed existence is a more perfect existence because it forces people to help one another (tying back to the symbolism of the Nisan/Sophia teachings and the symbol of the two one-winged angels who need each other to fly) Krelian relents and decides to let Fei and Elly go while he travels to the higher dimension alone because he knows he is too much of a monster to live among people anymore. As I mention, Krelian himself is aware of his own hypocrisy, but this is ultimately what I feel makes him a compelling villain because he really is simply a flawed individual. He had good intentions but nothing but the near end of the world would allow it to see fruition so he dirtied his hands and became the very thing he once fought against. Yet Krelian gets his revenge, he has Emperor Cain killed, personally destroys the Gazel Ministry, and cursed the people of Shevat. Despite the misgivings with Lacan, he was willing to take Fei with him as well on his plans, trying to convince him that his goal was right in the end. To me, Krelian is a complex figure, he's definitely a monster but his past and his ultimate goal make it harder to simply judge him like he was some sociopath without a shred of remorse. I like the fact that he makes you leave the game with this unsettling feeling concerning him because its far more difficult to simply pigeonhole him as total villain. With Wilhelm they try to recreate this but Wilhelm has no engaging past and his origins as a higher being and his later attitudes with the party in the finale, makes it hard for me to see him in the same light because in the end, Wilhelm's psyche is meant to be alien to normal people. He's not really a well intentioned extremist like Krelian, instead he's a being with orange and blue morality tasked with a cause that seems good in theory. While that's intriguing it lacks the psychological depths that Krelians situation brings forth because since he is human, we can theoretically figure out his rationale.
*********************************************************************************************
Onto the actual main characters.
Fei Fong Wong Vs. Shion Uzuki
Both are the the "main characters" of their games though each has their moments where they are kicked into the background from time to time to let other characters shine. Both are also unaware of their supernatural powers, previous lives, and their existence is kind of central to the plot. Fei wins on account of being better written. The other issue I have is that both characters were written to be flawed people who would sometimes do things that would probably not make the player endear them to them. Fei is certainly a whiny bitch for the first few hours of Xenogears whereas Shion is a pretty selfish downright misanthropic person at times. I was amazed how often she nearly sacrificed the whole party just to save KOS-MOS who time and time again that she's capable of handling herself. My issue is that Fei eventually grows into a better character because the game gives him enough redeeming moments and quiet reflections to make us understand him and see that he can actually become a better person. Shion to me, just doesn't have as many of these moments. I felt she was an intriguing and divisive figure in Episode 1, but after Epsidoe 2, I had begun to lose any sympathy for her, and despite a nice backstory on Old Militia, Shion pulls enough stupid stunts and selfish decisions in Episode 3 that I had pretty much stopped caring as much. Shion is an intriguing character but her story isn't as solid as Fei's and I feel she is flawed to the point of being unlikable too often. I still like her, but she certainly isn't in my top faves of the cast.
Winner: Fei Fong Wong
Elhaym Van Houten Vs KOS-MOS
Both are the important secondary character who is often the catalyst for a lot of the events in the game. For this, I'm giving it to Elly. Why? Despite her story having a very rushed conclusion that wasn't as satisfying as she deserved, Elly beats KOS-MOS on two very important points.
1. Elly is a well developed character whom if we were to even drop the whole reincarnation angle for her, she would still be a well developed and nicely written character. Whereas KOS-MOS has little often subtle development, she's a walking plot device for two and half games. KOS-MOS has no real personality in the first two games. Its not that KOS-MOS doesn't have some development, but KOS-MOS is barely a character in the first game and she's so downplayed in the second title and terteriary titles that I don't even know why they bothered to even spend time to write her in. KOS-MOS is interesting for the mystery she represents but she lacks Elly's importance as a character who not only grows and overcomes her own problems but is deeply connected into helping other characters like Fei grow as well. Elly seems more important in terms of adding real emotion to the characters and story. KOS-MOS is more plot driven. Even KOS-MOS' true identity is poorly developed and rushed as a character which brings me to...
2) The whole revelation that she is Mary Magdeline was stupid. This plot twist is ultimately what killed Xenosaga for me and prevents me from placing it above Xenogears, among other things. Maybe its because I have a religious upbringing so I'm familiar with the Bible and all that but finding out KOS-MOS houses the soul of Mary Magdeline; and her and chaos were BFFs with Jesus in Roman era Jerusalem pretty much killed my suspension of belief. It was silly and utterly pointless in hindsight, I know Xenosaga could be renamed Gnosticim: The Game, but come on! It just felt a bit silly and I never felt it was justified.
Winner: Elly
Citan Uzuki Vs chaos
These two are paied because they represent the "guides" to the party.This one is a bit tough for me because I like both characters, but Citan is going to win this one, largely because he's a more well rounded character and he develops nicely throughout the course of the game whereas chaos' real development doesn't really get off the ground at full speed until Episode 3. Citan is a fun character who balances humor and drama well and the writing of his story is nicely handled, with the player often wondering whose side he's really on even after he lays off bombshells about his past, Citan remains an intriguing figure and I love how his revelation as a spy pans out in Solaris. chaos is a character who suffers from some of the issues I have with KOS-MOS, his connection to that plot twist kind of lessens my love for him, but really his lack of big character growth in the games, just being the pure enigma allowed more well rounded characters like Jr, or darkhorse fave Ziggy to surpass him as someone I would be genuinely interested in. I feel the game dropped the ball just like KOS-MOS and Wilhelm where it spent too much time trying hype up their importance that the revelations felt a bit lacking and when the credits roll, they were all not nearly as fun or interesting as the better developed characters. chaos still has moments where he's salvageable, watching him slowly (and I must emphasize slowly) growing from being a melancholic observer to finally taking a stand was really nice, I just wished he took an active role sometime in the middle of Episode 2 instead of halfway through Episode 3.
Winner Citan Uzuki
Bartholomew Fatima Vs. Rubido/Jr.
Jr. is just so obviously a redo of Bart, both own kickass battleships, both are reckless and have a childish attachment to western lawless occupations (Pirates for Bart, Cowboys for Jr.) and both are more commonly referred to by their crew as Young/Little Master. Course the other big reason to compare these two is because both of their personal stories end up eating large chunks of the games plot. Fei takes a detour stopping Solaris to deal with Aveh's politics and getting the Fatima Treasure while Shion and Co spend a lot of time dealing with the U.R.T.V.s and Jr.'s past. On the one hand, I love Bart, he's a fun guy and I find anytime he shows up in the story to be some of the more funny and action packed moments, but I have to give this to Jr. Not only does Jr. have a more original story, its also well written and intiguing. I may not like Episode 2 and I do still feel the U.R.T.V. section has some poor pacing in terms of gameplay but I can't deny that Jr and the U.R.T.V.'s story isn't the highlight and most redeeming quality of the game. Both characters have more depth than they first show off, but Bart kind of stays a goof ball so when the moments he is serious happens, the player is taken a bit back because of all of it. We never get used to serious Bart, whereas Jr. is much more carefully written to never fall into any real extreme so he stays pretty consistent throughout the games. Jr. for me, has probably the best character development of the whole playable cast of Xenosaga, and while Bart is also a nicely written character, he just can't hold up to Jr.
Winner Ruuuubbbeeeeddddooooo
At this point it gets tricky to come up with comparisons, some only really pair up nicely with people I already compared and other compare better to multiples of characters, while others have no real counterpart. For the most part, this is also where we see a defining difference for Gears vs Saga in characters. For me, I feel the Big Four who largely drive the plots and could be argued to be the main characters generally falls into Gears for having the better characters, the Bart/Jr paring being the one exception; but when it comes to the secondary characters, I feel Saga wins this. Jin, MOMO, and Ziggy are just more well rounded and get better development than Billy, Maria, Esmerelda, Rico, and Chu-Chu. While the Saga characters have their flaws, they are still better written due to getting much better screen time to develop them, either thanks to Saga's smaller playable cast or through spin off titles like Pied Piper.
Winner: Xenosaga
Overall, when it comes to characters, I feel Gears has the stronger primary characters and villains. Saga excelled at building an overall fleshed out cast than Gears. In terms of plot, I still feel Gears is better, in both pacing and actually having a well thought out story. Saga's pacing is erratic from game to game and I felt Episode 2 spent too much time on a side story and let the momentum of the main story fall, so Episode 3 had to really rush through it to get the player back to speed. I also feel the pay off for the main story arcs were genuinely better in Gears. I was quite satisfied with finding out what the villains were doing and the truth behind Fei and the world, whereas I felt KOS-MOS, chaos, and Wilhelm's revelations were not handled as well and were less satisfying to me. Xenogears ending also has better closure whereas Saga ends with a "To Be Continued" that will never come, which is a shame, because despite my gripes, Episode 3 is still the strongest entry in the franchise.
As for where Blade lands in all of this. Xenoblade still lives up to the Xeno standards of world design. I can't think of any other game that has world design as well thought out and ambitious as Gears, Saga, or Blade that isn't some multi-sequel series like TES or Metal Gear. In terms of story, I feel Blade is good but its a very different kind of story, where Blade surpasses its predecessors is in how it utilizes gameplay to really drive home some of the drama. Blade is filled with emotions that the game doesn't illicit from the player through a well scripted cutscene with great music and excellent voice acting. The gameplay pulls a Persona 3/4 by making the player invested in the world so when bad things happen to it, it feels personal. I can't be the only person whose heart sunk a bit trying to do some of the "Hunt Telethia" missions in Alcamoth near the end of the game. You know what I mean...
In terms of deep thoughtful story, Gears and Saga are more robust. Their stories are the main attraction for them, whereas its the gameplay that makes Xenoblade so damn great. Not that Xenoblade doesn't have a great cast and story, in fact its cast is quite well done, but Blade is really slow to get any traction on the real plot and while the final 30 hours of the game are a roller coaster ride with some Gear/Saga levels twists, the first 40 hours to get to that point is a bit of a slow ride though it explores some cool themes like why clairvoyance is a terrible burden. I like Blade's plot but its the game and world design that will be making me come back for subsequent playthroughs. Doesn't change the fact its the best RPG I've played this generation and even if it was released in the last console cycle I feel it would still be one of the greats. What frightens me is that Tetsuya Takahashi later revealed that Xenoblade was a test to see if the team could pull off the title he really wanted to do which is the new X project he's working on for the Wii-U. If he can convince his wife Soraya Saga to come onto the project as the head writer, we may finally get the perfect Xeno game that balances great gameplay and stroytelling. Not going to happen but I can dream can't I?
All i can say is that Xenobalde better be worth it. I'm spending more money on a used copy of it than I am on a used Wii.
$100? Seriously? And then GameStop got exclusive rights to it until the end of he year. So they want me to wait till December to get it from Best Buy. Smurf that.
Those guys are shrewd businessmen and it makes you realize why everyone hates shrewd businessmen.
It's a good game, but don't get your hopes way too high. For me, it's certainly not the best RPG of the generation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover
Xenoblade is a great game, but if you are looking for a story on par with previous Xeno games, Blade is far more subdued, the themes are there and some of his favorite tropes, but its not the involving human drama of his previous projects, though the story and cast are still great in their own right. The game to me is more interesting for its actual game design, the Bionis is such an original concept for a game world and it is beautifully designed. Seriously, I wouldn't be surprised if half the games budget was spent on building the skybox alone because it lends itself well to making the game world feel alive. The game also has a knack for taking questionable game design decisions and making them work. Its greatest feature is how absolutely user friendly it is as a game with automatic quick travel, easy quest completions that rarely require backtracking, and the game does a great job of balancing the game difficulty. One of the less known but awesome features of the game is how every character plays differently from each other. They still use the same interface but each character brings their own element to the battle system. As a person interested in game design, I feel Xenoblade is a modern masterpiece, it has very little waste and about the only gameplay gripe I can give it is that their are still too many tedious sidequests, but because the game has such a user friendly interface, it didn't stop me from doing all of them. Its not often an RPG comes out where it doesn't feel like it has a bunch of superfluous options and content. I need to stop gushing... :eep:Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover
I might as well say this here.
As my Square RPGs with Great Stories topic may have indicated, I'm looking for new RPGs that have really fascinating narratives that will wow me to at least nearly the same degree as Xenogears.
I don't think Blade will do that. It'll probably be a lot of fun and interesting but just not on the same level as Gears.
So i set out to find other JRPGs that will hopefully blow my mind.
This is the one I picked.
(SPOILER)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...sona2isbox.JPG
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Persona2ep.jpg
I decided on this because:
1. Everyone and their mother says Persona when you ask for well-written JRPGs.
2. Some die-hard fans said that, as much as 3 and 4 were being recommended, 2 was better in the plot department.
3. A guy on the Gamefaqs Xenogears board even recommended the game for having the same "feel" as Gears.
4. Perhaps the flimsiest reasoning yet but I just have a strong attachment to the PS1. I grew up with it more than any other console and so I just had to put my faith in one of its premier JRPG titles. Xenogears was once just another popular PS1 JRPG to me as well and look how much I've become obsessed with it.
I know there's a PSP version of innocent Sin available but I don't own a PSP and I can't play that crap anyway because of my eyesight. I bought the Japanese version and I'll just use a translation patch. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
Xenoblade and both Persona 2's should be here later this week. I think I'll have a fun month before I go visit my friend in June.
I think Gears is better, I liked the combat better (I never found it any more boring or repetitive than any other rpg) and I thought the story was better.
Xenosaga was a mixed bag because it was so inconsistent throughout in terms of presentation and battle systems. They should have just made the whole series in 1 style instead of trying to reinvent themselves every game. I also despise Episode 2 because I thought everything about the game was just bad. Also, Shion was a terrible main character.
Xenoblade is a fine game but I felt the combat was a bit boring.
That said, Xenosaga and Gears could have greatly benefited from better dialog/writing/translation. I played Xenosaga Episode 3 again last year and I was cringing left and right at the words I heard being spewed forth. As Harrison Ford told Lucas, "You can type this trout, but you sure as hell can't say it." Gears fairs far better because it is never said but there is still plenty to clean up.
Xenoblade has a pretty good narrative. The characters may not be as developed as you would have liked but the story took some very interesting and unpredictable twists and turns that I thoroughly enjoyed.
Persona 2 is a great story, but I'll warn you that you'll need to stick with it. The first game is a bit silly at times but it also has some dark and powerful moments but this can sometimes be overshadowed by how ridiculous things get in the plot. The real strength of P2 is in the second act, Eternal Punishment, so much of the game's story really works well if you've played Innocent Sin because you'll understand the parallels between both stories. EP also has a much older cast and the nature of the plot scales up a bit because of the older perspective change. Individually the games are good, together I would argue they are great and I do rank P2 as my second favorite Persona game behind Persona 3 just because the ambitious nature of the story and characters were nice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover
I will warn you that the gameplay is hit or miss depending on your taste, MegaTen has never been strong on dungeon design and I feel the Persona series is probably one of the worst offenders in that department, but the battle system is pretty unique and fun, though the actual Persona designs are lacking beyond the character's storyline personas. Overall I would argue that the Press Turn system is vastly superior but then again, I haven't played an RPG since the battle system's inception that has surpassed it but that may just be me, and sadly I still argue the best version of the system is actually Shin Megami Tensei III's version.
Well as we both know Wolf if the story and characters are good, I can tolerate bad dungeons. I don't think there's a dungeon in existence that fills me with mor dread than Babel Tower. I've been traumatized since my first playtrhough of the game where I missed that one platform jump which sends you falling all the way through a loading transition and back to the bottom of the final stretch of the dungeon.
But I've overcome that and beaten the game several times and rank it as my favorite JRPG ever. So if the dungeons in P2 are just lame or bland, no big deal.
Tell me Wolf, since you like Persona 2 and 3 so much, why is Persona 4 so popular? I have done a "JRPG with the Best Plot" thread on multiple forums and Persona 4 is brought up again and again. Other SMT titles are mentioned but not as frequently. P4 also got an anime right and a bunch of other crap.
Speaking of other SMT games however, this guy's summary of Digital Devil Saga sounds like it be right up my alley. This sounds almost like a condensed summary of Xenogears:
Quote:
As for suggestions, I cannot suggest the SMT: Digital Devil Saga series enough. Holy crap, the combination of mythological references, meaning of life stuff, mystery, and the ways it plays with characterizations, I love it.
You know, when my current seriously smurfed up sleep pattern allows me to focus, I will read your giant posts and respond accordingly. :p