Xeno Debate: Gears Vs. Saga

[NeoCracker]

I disagree about Wilhelm coming off as caring, to me it seems more like a he's happy to not be bored. Yes let's give the resident psycho path a good start, oh hey, chaos is actually going to do something instead of letting me pull off recurrence again... to me this isn't the signs of a caring guy, just an immortal being who is bored and happy to finally have something come up to challenge hiw well oiled conspiracy machine. I also still stand by the fact that Wilhelm's total lack of development and being mostly a non-entity for two and half games just kills any means for someone to actually give a damn. As I said, Miang wins because her reveal as the big bad was far better handled as opposed to Wilhelm where it became obvious after the first game and then the rest of the story is simply spent with the player wishing he would finally come off his high horse and actually do something. When he finally does, he's already been outclasses by the more involving Albedo and Yuriev. Even among Saga's villains, I feel Wilhelm is my least favorite because there was nothing ever there to really set him apart from the rest. They tried to recreate Miang and Krelian with him and his lack of screen time kills any means of really caring.

I think they gave him just enough Screen time actually. True, he didn't get a whole lot, but how would you go about giving a lot of screen time to the guy working entirely from the shadows? I don't deny Miang's reveal was handled very well, but Wilhelm was never intended to be a reveal. You were never intended to be surprised when the characters learn it's Wilhelm involved, so to judge him based off that is silly. Especially with Chaos invovled, there really is no reason he would ever be convinced anyone besides Wilhelm is invovled, so the decide to not bother hiding it from the player.

And your inability to grasp Wilhelm's motives are your own problem. ;P

I don't really think Wilhelm is a villain who would get a whole lot from more screen time, or at least not a lot more. He could have used a bit of time devouted to the events surrounding the Sealing of Anima, but I don't think he was lacking to the point you seem to think. (For example, I loved his bits as Heinlien.)

Seriously, you're going to to argue semantics? You know the internet debate rules, Rule #2 - When you have to start arguing the language used in the debate to prove your point, you've already proven you have nothing left to go on. ( For those interested, here's Rule #1). The fact is Margulis has little development and I don't feel that a bit of questioning his superiors in the last third of the plot amounts to the same as watching the completelt mental breakdown of a character that is played beautifully across the course of a game. Margulis would work in a 16-bit RPG but Ramsus was a complex figure for the future of the genre. Also Margulis got his ass kicked by your party a number of time sin the plot, so I would argue that by the end of Episode 2, I really stopped seeing him as much of a threat and more of a stooge. At least Ramsus' defeat is pulled into his character development whereas Margulis just fails and we pretend like it never happened. Ramsus is just the better developed character and Margulis really doesn't hold his own since he's largely a stock character you can find in other games.

Seriously? You're going to quote BS internet debate rules? That's like, worse then breaking one of them. The 'symantics' in this case are important to establish for the purpose of what we are talking about. The goal of Margulis was the return to lost Jeruselum and the recovery of the Artificats of God. The Mission, as given to him by Wilhelm, involved giving up on the Artifacts. The Mission and Goal were in opposition to each other in this case. While he stuck to the mission for so long, he finally turned on it in favor of his goal when he orded the attack with the immigrant fleet.

And having just played the Xenosaga's, Margulis is constantly showed as a threat to your party. You first encounter him and Ziggy barely escapes by activated pre-planted C-4. At the beginning of episode 2 Jin is only spared by virtue of needing to escape.

Jin is also shown unable to fight Margulis one on one on Michtam.

Yes, he doesn't always win. But even when he loses and comes back again, he continues to be threatening. It is about more then just a win-loss record, it's about presence. He never loses his confidence, and is even consistantly effective at his job even after suffering loss's. After ID Ramsus becomes a wreck, and from then on loses any credability. You never even get a fear of fighting a guy in such a desperation. Were his only role in the story was to be pitied by me, I guess he's succeeded.

And Margulis also get's a bit more development with Jin. It's clear their connections are more then just Margulis and his goals. True, Margulis may not be the deepest character ever, but it doesn't change the development he does get is well done, and he fulfills his role in the plot smurfing marvelously.

In fact, I would point out this is my main gripe with Saga's villains. With the exception of Albedo and maybe Vergil, the rest of the villains get no development until the last game, or in Yuriev's case, in Japan exclusive side content. They are a great set of villains but they are just never as well developed for me as Xenogears villains were. Albedo is the best villain in Saga, but its also because he gets two and half games to develop him whereas the rest of the villains only get Episode III to really define them with varying results.

It was kind of troutty we never got Piep Piper, but asside from him I still really enjoy all the villains development. Only Sellers I felt got the short end of the stick, and Voyager in the absence of Piep Piper. Yuriev certainly got more with Pied Piper, but from his entrance in 2 followed up by his involvement in 3, he got plenty of development.

I'm not letting this slide, Albedo gets a lame ass overly pretentious send off scene that is more laughable and mood killing than anything else in his plot and it doesn't bother you, but looking at other posts, its because of these "mood killing scenes" that you dislike characters like Billy and Maria and totally ruin any means of caring about them? A bit hypocritical maybe?

Firstly, you want to compare a scene where he's carried off by the Realians, which had some set up from the Song of Nephalim bits from episode one, to a Giant ass kicking bunny? The Idea you consider these things at all in the same league is very telling of you. ;P

That said, not only was my dislike of Maria more then that one scene as it was her general pointless-ness, it just killed that scene.

And I didn't dislike Billy. I just thought his arc was badly handled. Especially the end, when litterally we learn in the span of 1-2 minutes we learn that weapon will kill his father, he becomes sad cause he doesn't know when he fired it that would happen, and then his dad goes 'Oh, I already fixed that bug'.

The Albedo Angel scene was at least forshadowed as far back as game one. The exact quote being... "Why do you hurt everyone? My sisters, they all loved something they saw in you. Even after all that you put them through, they still believed in you. How can you desecrate their feelings -- their hearts!?"

It is hurt by never really seeing that side of Albedo, at least not prior to game 3, but it still makes sense they would be there for him at the end. All that was wrong was they went overboard on the imagery. This, in no way compares, to giant battle bunny.

Or even worse giant crucified bunny.

Who is one of the good guys. Thus Albedo came back to help the good guys. He's pretty much responsible for taking out Yuriev so I would say Albedo goes good guy, making a deal with the devil to come back doesn't make him ambiguous if his intentions were noble.

...Noble? His goal was entirely selfish. To save his brother. Certainly not a bad thing, though he still handed Wilhelm the Zohar without any real quams. The warning came just to keep his brother safe, it's never really implied that the others, or even the world, factored into this. 'Good guy' kind of fits, but it's a bit of a stretch, though that really is an argument of semantics.

And Herman and Richard loose to anyone you'd put them against. Though a couple of their fights in 3 were a bit of a challenge.


And to end, yes, I understand Krellian's motivations. I just call bulltrout. To describe, I'll draw a different parallell to him. If we connect Wilhelm and Miang, it would make sense to pair up Krellian with Kevin. Much like Krellian, it was kevin's plans to create KOS-MOS and T-Elos, and acted to free the world from the looming fear of death.

However, at the end, he gets scolded, for lack of better term, that what he is doing is not for the good of all, but more him running away from his own humanity.

This is Krellian, only that's never really addressed and we are expected to believe it was done purely out of love. Pay no mind to the scenes of the past were he grows some obviously powerful feelings of Jealousy and other things when Elly chooses Lacan over him. The game ends by telling us love guided these actions.

So yes, I do get it and see what they were doing. I just think they did a trout job at it.

And on topic of music...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&fe...&v=GlmQiHClfko

That song conveys such a power and disturbing tone it fit's Albedo perfectly.