Wrongly Accused?

I understand what you're saying, T-man, but you've also got to look at the situation. How many celebrations were held in Muslim countries when the Twin Towers fell? People lining the streets, burning flags, shooting guns, praising Allah. And how many protests have Muslims organized against terrorism? How many times have you seen on the news "such-and-such group of Muslims gathered today to protest the terrorist acts of such-and-such other group..."? September 11, the Madrid train bombing, constant acts of terrorism over the past many years in Palestine. How many protests have Muslims formed against the people that do these things?

I don't know if I've been up on the news too much for the past while. But I've counted two.

Islam is a peaceful religion, as is Christianity, and as are many, many other religions. And granted, there's a difference in religion and extremism, and it's the extremists that commit atrocities and claim them to be in the name of their religion. But where's the line between extreme and mainstream? What percentage of Middle Eastern Muslims have to be "extremists" before it's not considered "extremist" anymore, before it's taken over the whole religion? Some have already given Islam a bad name...but Islam has been given a bad name many times in the past, and has done nothing to redeem itself. You don't see clerics speaking out against what their "followers" have done, you see them condoning it. You don't see protests by other Muslims against terrorist acts, you see celebrations. When will Islam follow Islam again?

So far of what I know of Islam, it is true that they haven't put up much of a fight against terrorists. Also, just because they don't go into major protests doesn't mean that they are not against people like Osama. It's a bit hard for them I suppose. I have a muslim friend, and he says that he is disgusted of muslim people who celebrate when people like Osama have blown up some place. For him its hard to start up a protest because it is promoting a form of hatred against someone, and according to him, in the religion of Islam, violence and hatred is prohibited

As you have said, Islam is a peaceful religion

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Originally Posted by Rye

Religion should be a personal thing only.

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Quoted because people should read this again. It's so true.

I don't hate religion because of the misactions of its followers, I don't like religion because of parts of their dogmas I disagree with. Or dealing with Christianity, "parts" becomes "a great majority".

radical islam as it should have been called is not as widespread as people think. america right now is gripped in fear over a terrorist attack 3 and a half years ago. very few people actually understand that attack. even fewer understand al-qaeda. they are still wrapped up in colonel powell's great idea of them having bunkers in the tora bora mountain ranges. al qaeda is a very small organisation. they don't have a man on every street.

radical islam is a small section of the muslim community. do you want the whole christain movement labelled as murders because of the kkk? israel is wiped off the map in iran because of the belief that it is not a true state. there is a true hatred there.

america never said much about the ira in the 1970 and 80's in fact many openly supported it. do you want all americans labelled for the omagh bombing?

what are we to do? ban islam? burn them at the stake? we used to. why not again?

or why not try and fix this mess we have gotten ourself in with israel and the middle east. why not instead of invading under false pretences we show these countries that we are not the evil empire for once? these people hate us because we have a habit of stomping on them or helping someone else stomp on them. the russians, iran, iraq, checnya, israel, palestine. we have a habit of fighting wars by proxy and not hiding it very well. we were part of halabja, part of the russian bombing raids in checnya, part of shelling of refugee camps in the west bank, part of darfur. that is why these people hate us. not because they're religion tells them to. because we have a habit of crushing them into the ground for made up or bad reasons.

radical islam allows for a strike back. it takes away all the wishy washy bits about not being aggressive and gives a reason to attack back. to defend. by whatever means necessary. to defend their faith, their homelands, their people. it would be like a modern day christain only reading the old testament and ignoring the new where it takes about turning the other cheek and loving your enemy.

muslim countries have a reason to hate us. it's not a falsified lie just to come over here and steal oil, no claim of wmd, no links to terrorist organisations. pure and simple we are part of the problem and radical islam is a reaction against this. it's not evil it's evolution due to circumstance.

I just wish that all this hatred could be stopped once and for all. Unfortunately, this is very unlikely to happen since hatred is a natural part of the human conscience.

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Originally Posted by T-MaN

So far of what I know of Islam, it is true that they haven't put up much of a fight against terrorists. Also, just because they don't go into major protests doesn't mean that they are not against people like Osama. It's a bit hard for them I suppose. I have a muslim friend, and he says that he is disgusted of muslim people who celebrate when people like Osama have blown up some place. For him its hard to start up a protest because it is promoting a form of hatred against someone, and according to him, in the religion of Islam, violence and hatred is prohibited

As you have said, Islam is a peaceful religion

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I think it's more a problem of no free speech. What do you think would happen to a Muslim critisizing the terrorist organizations? Looking on the outside, I'd say a massive explosion. Would you say something if you knew that it would mean almost certain death for both you and your family? There is no such problem when you support terrorism in the middle east. They don't kill their supporters. Everybody's afraid of Hamas and Hezbollah, let alone al-qaida. And if the state is officially or unofficially on their side, the army won't protect you.

people aren't scared of hezbollah. they are liked. not because they go around killing people. because if you live in the gazaa strip and your refugee camp had just been shelled, there was tanks rolling in front of your house daily, helicopters flying over and firing missles at the town a few miles down. then you support someone who you see as fighting on your side. america isn't come to your aid, it's funding it. the rest of the world won't have anything to do with it because america hates the idea of terrorism being the right thing to do and threatens invasion at the slightest word of such things. hamas and hezbollah are seen as fighting for these people and so are supported. they aren't scared of these people they are scared that the next person to get shelled will be them.

that's why radical islam is growing. out of fear, fear from invasion, israeli attacks, russian attacks, indian and pakistan attacks. not from terrorists. this isn't some crazy new fashion it is a problem that needs to be addressed and that problem is mostly us.

al-qaeda is a joke don't even get me started on them.

Going a little off topic, but I thought AD was Ano Domine (sp??), latin for "Year of our Lord"

Yes, I agree about the bad reputation that Islam is getting, and it is also due to the media. The media controls our perceptions so much. Maybe there is other things going on that we do not see. I can't recall the last time i saw on the news, "Well, thousands of people died today of starvation..." Really, the media is so controlling. It is annoying when people are all mad because Islam, gives women little or no rights. They never think that they accept that as a part of their religion. It is kinda funny how the US once tried to make peace in Israel, but it also pays Israel 6 million dollars a year. I think people should focus their energies more on trying to make peace. War a lot of the time is senseless, they should try peace first. I know not all situations can be solved by diplomatic means, but still try.

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Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

al-qaeda is a joke don't even get me started on them.

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LoL :D

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Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

people aren't scared of hezbollah. they are liked. not because they go around killing people. because if you live in the gazaa strip and your refugee camp had just been shelled, there was tanks rolling in front of your house daily, helicopters flying over and firing missles at the town a few miles down. then you support someone who you see as fighting on your side. america isn't come to your aid, it's funding it. the rest of the world won't have anything to do with it because america hates the idea of terrorism being the right thing to do and threatens invasion at the slightest word of such things. hamas and hezbollah are seen as fighting for these people and so are supported. they aren't scared of these people they are scared that the next person to get shelled will be them.

that's why radical islam is growing. out of fear, fear from invasion, israeli attacks, russian attacks, indian and pakistan attacks. not from terrorists. this isn't some crazy new fashion it is a problem that needs to be addressed and that problem is mostly us.

al-qaeda is a joke don't even get me started on them.

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Nothing, in my opinion, can excuse the deliberate and wanton killing of innocents in the name of any cause. Al Qaeda have murdered many thousands, with the Embassy bombings of 1997 and the September 2001 attacks, to name but two. The people they killed had done nothing to them; their only 'crime' was to be a national of the wrong country or an adherent of the wrong religion, or simply being in the wrong place at an unlucky time. There's no excuse for this kind of killing.

Of course, it goes both ways too - governments have absolutely no justification for killing the innocent in order to further their own ends.

I have a deep feeling of disgust when I hear of the latest Hamas bombing of innocent Israelis; I get a similar sensation at news of the Israeli military's "counter attack" by shelling civilians in refugee camps.

Deliberately killing the innocent out of hatred or prejudice is just as bad, whatever motivation or justification you try to attach to it.

i'm not trying to justify terrorism. i live close to both lockerbie and dunblane (not a terrorist attack but meh). so i've seen what attacks on innocent does. what i offered was motivation for attacks which didn't rely on the idea that "islam is evil" and that the religion is to blame and should be culled. terrorism isn't a state of mind, a madness or a religion it is what is seen by these people as the solution to a problem. a problem that we refuse to see.

The Israelis used to bulldoze the homes of the terrorists that attacked them. They recently stopped that. I personally think they should bulldoze their homes, their neighbors' homes, and their mosque.

It's hard to say that terrorism isn't a Muslim thing when Muslim leadership preaches, leads, and supplies it. When weapons and bombs are found being stored in mosques, and when preachings of hate are shouted from mosque towers, the mosque and the religion are part of the problem.

By the way, "refugee camps" aren't really refugee camps anymore. They started that way a couple generations ago, but they've developed into "normal" neighborhoods. Unfortunately, these neighborhoods breed hate and animosity for anything and everything that is Christian or Jewish. Israel doesn't get attacked because they took down somebody's house, they get attacked because they're Israel. And the Palestinians won't be happy when Israel stops counterattacking, they won't be happy with they get a piece of land, the only thing that will make them happy is when Isreal is pushed into the sea.

Not all mosques support terrorism. Because people hear that there are some mosques who support it, they instantly take it that all mosques do the same thing. That is not true. Only part of the information is provided there.

Ones person terrorist, is another's freedom fighter. Depending on where you stand and support, faction A is a freedom fighter that fights hard for their beliefs, but faction B is a terrorist to your ideals. Same the other way around. The word terrorist is so wrong in many ways its not funny.

On the note of the OP, i think religion does factor into some groups of what people do. It may not be what it said, but faith and belief in a religion can be taken as many ways as there are believers. Hence i think it would be wrong to say religion is not responsible for what people do sometimes. It obviously does influence their actions. Like how parents can influence you even though it is your own action. Its not entirely their fault but they do influence you. Hence it is not fair to say that religion doesnt ever change someone because it obviously can and does. How much however is determined upon the person. Religion is rarely ever a set point for every individual person.

I think the War before Peace thing is bad yet brilliant on the part of the US. After all, there will be peace after you pound them to submission (and wth can they say after being bombed?) and they will be heralded as heroes for destrying "terror"(which Bush tried to get us all scared of and to think the Middle East is a HUGE threat and to pay more taxes for the war..smart). Then you can set up whatever government you want there and "Assimilating" it for capitalism(which some do not want). Its kinda the same thing as what Commies did before except theres more bells and whistles to make it not seem that way IMO. Its for freedom...and for American ideals.

[q=Sasquatch]The Israelis used to bulldoze the homes of the terrorists that attacked them. They recently stopped that. I personally think they should bulldoze their homes, their neighbors' homes, and their mosque.[/q]They also bulldozed the homes of Palestinians who were living where Israel wanted to build new settlements. Innocent people dispossessed or killed, because they were the wrong ethnicity. Yay.

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It's hard to say that terrorism isn't a Muslim thing when Muslim leadership preaches, leads, and supplies it. When weapons and bombs are found being stored in mosques, and when preachings of hate are shouted from mosque towers, the mosque and the religion are part of the problem.

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Well then, I guess plenty of US Christian churches should be bulldozed for supporting the Bush administration's extremist policies, and for supporting terrorist groups like the CIA.

Actually, I'm not serious about that. Merely making a point.
People who have done something wrong should be brought to justice. People whose only crime is belonging to the 'wrong' religion should be left the hell alone.