The True Nature and Intentions of Sephiroth [Spoilers]

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Originally Posted by ~Storm Ninja~

umm... maybe we should call it a day before we get killed by sephiroth mega-fangirls.

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I don't see any of those in this thread, yet, and I won't be cowed by the potential for them.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

I believe, although some claim the ultimania guide states otherwise, that Jenova was controlling Sephiroth, but not in an obvious sense. Essentially she was the force of chaos, or darkness, that, from the background, compels the story's antagonists in different directions, but all towards the same ends, which would result in the destruction of Gaia, or most life on it.
Sephiroth's plan was to move his "clones" (keep in mind this is not the conventional, Western definition of clones) like chess pieces in order to fulfill his goal. From his state of uconsciousness in the Northern Crater, he was able to use "#1" and Cloud (both arriving at midgar at about the same time) primarily to combat Shinra, find the black materia, and deliver it to sephiroth for summoning. Thus, a meteor would threaten Gaia, and the Planets lifestream, and all its energy + knowledge would gather at which point Sephiroth would be the center.

It should be noted that this plan is exactly what happens, even after sephiroth
is defeated, although it takes place at Midgar, not the northern crater.

At this point, sephiroth would basically become one with the planet, at which time this being would be a conscious planetary entity, and we can assume the same 1,000 year storyline would recommence, as it searches for a new planet's lifeforce to consume.

These are obviously Jenova's intentions, and as an actual fetus merged w/ Jenova cells, Sephiroth is, for all purposes, IS Jenova, her will, her child. This is parallel to FFIV's story of zemus controlling Golbez + Kain, or of the sorceress's intentions passing on in VIII

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I agree with Bolivar. no matter how "official" the Ultima Omega Guide is, there are tons of evidence throughout the game showing that Jenova is in control. The "official" ruling acutally contradicts the original story.

Think about it: the guide actually changes storyline elements fromt the original game that were as clear as day. For example, Instead of Cloud throwing Sephiroth into the lifestream, they now say that Sephiroth willingly jumped.

SCENES FROM THE GAME SHOULD HAVE PRIORITY OVER A GUIDE MADE YEARS LATER!!


Here is why Jenova is in control, or rather, controlling Sephiroth to control her cells, which are scattered throught the world:

2000 years ago, Jenova came crashing down from outer space, already succesfully destroying other planets. It just sat around, waiting for a human to infect. Along with giving the person super-human abilities, Jenova would infect the mind of the human in order for him to accomplish her will.

All she needed was someone with a weak ego, someone who's memories would be easy to let go of (if there are any pre-infected memories at all.)

A little more than 20 years ago, Professor Gast found Jenova and mislabeled her as an ancient. When he died, he left a plethora of documents stating that she was an ancient.

Hojo, a careless lunatic/biologist, took over the Jenova project. He got Lucricia pregnant and injected Jenova cells and mako into the developing fetus. The baby, Sephiroth, had Jenova in him from birth.


Fast forward to the Nibelheim incident 5 years ago.

Sephiroth, along with two uninfected members Zack(who only had mako) and Cloud, went to the Reactor at Nibelheim where Jenova was being stored. After finding that his "mother", Jenova, was a monster and that he was "created," he became emotionally unstable. He didn't know he also had an earthly mother, Lucricia. He retreated to the basement of the Shinra Mansion and read Gast's false documents of Jenova being an ancient. Filled with self doubt (then overconfidence as a compensation), the Jenova in him began to take over his mind untill she caused him to destroy the city, then take take her head to the lifestream.

Cloud, Tifa, and Zack tried to kill Sephiroth. Zack and Tifa were wounded by the time Cloud came on the scene, and after being stabbed himself Cloud threw Sephiroth into the lifestream. Unbeknownst to Cloud, this was only Jenova's will anyway.

The true Sephiroth does not die at this time (Jenova isn't very suseptible to death), but he travels the lifestream gaining the ancients' knowledge in order to find a way to destory the planet for Jenova. He isn't seen again until Disk Two when Cloud hands him the Black Materia.

Now Cloud and Zack, critically wounded by Sephiroth, were quickely taken in by Hojo while they were unconcious. Like other clone projects at the time, they were injected with Jenova cells (this restored their vitality). The two eventually escaped. Zack, who had strong feelings and memories, was not affected by the Jenova in him. Cloud, on the other hand, had a weaker ego and was affected.

Although Cloud's ego was weak, it wasn't weak enough (like Sephiroth's) for Jenova to control him all the time; He could only be manipulated while he was within a close distance from Jenova or during a situation in which he was unsure of himself.

It is Jenova, not Sephiroth, that causes Cloud to do all the bad things he does, mostly regarding the Black Materia.

THEREFORE: Cloud and Sephiroth were not so different. Sephiroth was just mentally weak enough for Jenova to use him to do more damage. Cloud was not as weak and couldn't be controlled as often. Besides, to say that Jenova isn't in charge makes the part she plays in the story dwindle to insignificance.

edit: Regarding Sephiroth's will to be a God, this was just a superficial goal planted into his mind to further her manipulation on him.

I really don't even know anymore.

Have you read this guide: http://uk.faqs.ign.com/articles/657/657331p1.html

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Originally Posted by silentenigma

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To sum up "I reject your reality and substitute my own."

Official SE products in a position of authority trump how you wish it was. Deal with it.

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Originally Posted by silentenigma

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

I believe, although some claim the ultimania guide states otherwise, that Jenova was controlling Sephiroth, but not in an obvious sense. Essentially she was the force of chaos, or darkness, that, from the background, compels the story's antagonists in different directions, but all towards the same ends, which would result in the destruction of Gaia, or most life on it.
Sephiroth's plan was to move his "clones" (keep in mind this is not the conventional, Western definition of clones) like chess pieces in order to fulfill his goal. From his state of uconsciousness in the Northern Crater, he was able to use "#1" and Cloud (both arriving at midgar at about the same time) primarily to combat Shinra, find the black materia, and deliver it to sephiroth for summoning. Thus, a meteor would threaten Gaia, and the Planets lifestream, and all its energy + knowledge would gather at which point Sephiroth would be the center.

It should be noted that this plan is exactly what happens, even after sephiroth
is defeated, although it takes place at Midgar, not the northern crater.

At this point, sephiroth would basically become one with the planet, at which time this being would be a conscious planetary entity, and we can assume the same 1,000 year storyline would recommence, as it searches for a new planet's lifeforce to consume.

These are obviously Jenova's intentions, and as an actual fetus merged w/ Jenova cells, Sephiroth is, for all purposes, IS Jenova, her will, her child. This is parallel to FFIV's story of zemus controlling Golbez + Kain, or of the sorceress's intentions passing on in VIII

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I agree with Bolivar. no matter how "official" the Ultima Omega Guide is, there are tons of evidence throughout the game showing that Jenova is in control. The "official" ruling acutally contradicts the original story.

Think about it: the guide actually changes storyline elements fromt the original game that were as clear as day. For example, Instead of Cloud throwing Sephiroth into the lifestream, they now say that Sephiroth willingly jumped.

SCENES FROM THE GAME SHOULD HAVE PRIORITY OVER A GUIDE MADE YEARS LATER!!


Here is why Jenova is in control, or rather, controlling Sephiroth to control her cells, which are scattered throught the world:

2000 years ago, Jenova came crashing down from outer space, already succesfully destroying other planets. It just sat around, waiting for a human to infect. Along with giving the person super-human abilities, Jenova would infect the mind of the human in order for him to accomplish her will.

All she needed was someone with a weak ego, someone who's memories would be easy to let go of (if there are any pre-infected memories at all.)

A little more than 20 years ago, Professor Gast found Jenova and mislabeled her as an ancient. When he died, he left a plethora of documents stating that she was an ancient.

Hojo, a careless lunatic/biologist, took over the Jenova project. He got Lucricia pregnant and injected Jenova cells and mako into the developing fetus. The baby, Sephiroth, had Jenova in him from birth.


Fast forward to the Nibelheim incident 5 years ago.

Sephiroth, along with two uninfected members Zack(who only had mako) and Cloud, went to the Reactor at Nibelheim where Jenova was being stored. After finding that his "mother", Jenova, was a monster and that he was "created," he became emotionally unstable. He didn't know he also had an earthly mother, Lucricia. He retreated to the basement of the Shinra Mansion and read Gast's false documents of Jenova being an ancient. Filled with self doubt (then overconfidence as a compensation), the Jenova in him began to take over his mind untill she caused him to destroy the city, then take take her head to the lifestream.

Cloud, Tifa, and Zack tried to kill Sephiroth. Zack and Tifa were wounded by the time Cloud came on the scene, and after being stabbed himself Cloud threw Sephiroth into the lifestream. Unbeknownst to Cloud, this was only Jenova's will anyway.

The true Sephiroth does not die at this time (Jenova isn't very suseptible to death), but he travels the lifestream gaining the ancients' knowledge in order to find a way to destory the planet for Jenova. He isn't seen again until Disk Two when Cloud hands him the Black Materia.

Now Cloud and Zack, critically wounded by Sephiroth, were quickely taken in by Hojo while they were unconcious. Like other clone projects at the time, they were injected with Jenova cells (this restored their vitality). The two eventually escaped. Zack, who had strong feelings and memories, was not affected by the Jenova in him. Cloud, on the other hand, had a weaker ego and was affected.

Although Cloud's ego was weak, it wasn't weak enough (like Sephiroth's) for Jenova to control him all the time; He could only be manipulated while he was within a close distance from Jenova or during a situation in which he was unsure of himself.

It is Jenova, not Sephiroth, that causes Cloud to do all the bad things he does, mostly regarding the Black Materia.

THEREFORE: Cloud and Sephiroth were not so different. Sephiroth was just mentally weak enough for Jenova to use him to do more damage. Cloud was not as weak and couldn't be controlled as often. Besides, to say that Jenova isn't in charge makes the part she plays in the story dwindle to insignificance.

edit: Regarding Sephiroth's will to be a God, this was just a superficial goal planted into his mind to further her manipulation on him.

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Sorry, but I don't care what you say, Sephiroth was in complete control. Heck IF Jenova had control him, then it (I say it because it is able to transform) would be saying it was Jenova in the first place. It's like a wake up call," Hello Cloud, I am Jenova in control not this weak minded pawn."

Edit: And what the heck is this person who typed this saying...Sephiroth being more weak mined than Cloud? Heck no... I say since Sephiroth had grown up with all these powers, he was able to manipulate his ablilties and Jenova slowly but I think the reason why Jenova was probably put in is to explainthe Sephiroth copies and why Sephiroth has those powers. so other than that, Jenova would be Insignificance.

Exactly. in fact, if i had to disregard a source, then it would have to Last Order. Now that had so many controdictions to the main game, it was unbelieveable!

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

To sum up "I reject your reality and substitute my own."

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I like that saying, and there I agree with you.:choc2:

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Originally Posted by jammi567

Exactly. in fact, if i had to disregard a source, then it would have to Last Order. Now that had so many controdictions to the main game, it was unbelieveable!

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Except the purpose of Last Order was to clarify the events of the game. And, having a third person omniscient perspective, and not suffering from the error of human memory, overrides Cloud Memories.
Nevermind that it specifically retcons the game, and so takes precedence.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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Originally Posted by jammi567

Exactly. in fact, if i had to disregard a source, then it would have to Last Order. Now that had so many controdictions to the main game, it was unbelieveable!

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Except the purpose of Last Order was to clarify the events of the game. And, having a third person omniscient perspective, and not suffering from the error of human memory, overrides Cloud Memories.
Nevermind that it specifically retcons the game, and so takes precedence.

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Yeah, and the same retcons happens in Before Crisis too.

what, that Zack actually fought Sephiroth for nearly a full minute, and that he (Sephiroth) was willing to jump into the lifestream?

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Originally Posted by jammi567

what, that Zack actually fought Sephiroth for nearly a full minute, and that he (Sephiroth) was willing to jump into the lifestream?

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Yes, in BC Sephiroth jumped in the Lifestream too.

but in the game, Sephiroth fell in rom Cloud pushing the sword out of his shoulder.

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Originally Posted by jammi567

but in the game, Sephiroth fell in rom Cloud pushing the sword out of his shoulder.

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But this scene is not cannon anymore. SE changed it in LO and BC, meaning that Cloud never threw him in the Lifestream. If CC show the Nibelheim incident, Cloud will throw Sephiroth in a wall and then he will jump in the Lifestream. If SE remake the original game, in the scene that Cloud remember everything(Lifestream in Mideel), we will see Sephiroth being threw against a wall and jumping in the Lifestream.
This is what really happened, because SE replaced the old cannon information, with another one. This is what we call a "retconn". Forget what you saw in FFVII, because that never happened.

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Originally Posted by The Crystal

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Originally Posted by jammi567

but in the game, Sephiroth fell in rom Cloud pushing the sword out of his shoulder.

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But this scene is not cannon anymore. SE changed it in LO and BC, meaning that Cloud never threw him in the Lifestream. If CC show the Nibelheim incident, Cloud will throw Sephiroth in a wall and then he will jump in the Lifestream. If SE remake the original game, in the scene that Cloud remember everything(Lifestream in Mideel), we will see Sephiroth being threw against a wall and jumping in the Lifestream.
This is what really happened, because SE replaced the old cannon information, with another one. This is what we call a "retconn". Forget what you saw in FFVII, because that never happened.

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I agree with the bottom part...IT NEVER HAPPENED AND I SAY AGAIN, SEPHIROTH WAS IN CONTROL... A LOT OF FACT PROVE IT...EVEN THE GAME ITSELF SAYS AND PROVES IT