Game of Thrones: House of the Dragon!

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Originally Posted by Shlup

I'm torn between wishing they'd cover fewer storylines per episode (and thus spend more time on each one) and being happy to see a little bit of each storyline. I like all of the storylines--even Theon's, which I didn't much care for in the books.

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This is it exactly.

It's like, YAY! We get to see bits of nearly everyone! ARGH! Incremental story progression!

The strength in Game of Thrones is the characters and the acting. I don't think the pacing is all that good. It started off super slow the first season too. But that's just how it goes with a lot of cable shows. Look at Breaking Bad, look at Mad Men. All slow burning shows focused on character. And then you get to the 2nd half of the season and all hell breaks loose and it's like WHOA BLOWING YOUR MIND.

The thing that's hard is that the first season did such a good job of getting you invested in the main characters that you want to get screen time with them and see their stories progress. So at this point, I really could not give a trout about Gay Wannabe King or Older Uglier Wannabe King with crazy witch lady. I really love Daenerys but her storyline is boring the hell outta me. I want more dragons! Rawr! Rather than, huuuungry. Duuuusty.

I was really happy to see Anne Boleyn in the last episode. Always trying to get pregnant.

I haven't seen the last 2 episodes, however, somebody mentioned feeling sorry for Theon. Reading the books I felt sorry for him, even though he is a superdouche. He just smurfed up. He's just trying so hard to prove himself, but winds up failing at life. Like the underdog who never stops being the underdog no matter how hard he tries.

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Originally Posted by Miriel

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Originally Posted by Shlup

I'm torn between wishing they'd cover fewer storylines per episode (and thus spend more time on each one) and being happy to see a little bit of each storyline. I like all of the storylines--even Theon's, which I didn't much care for in the books.

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This is it exactly.

It's like, YAY! We get to see bits of nearly everyone! ARGH! Incremental story progression!

The strength in Game of Thrones is the characters and the acting. I don't think the pacing is all that good. It started off super slow the first season too. But that's just how it goes with a lot of cable shows. Look at Breaking Bad, look at Mad Men. All slow burning shows focused on character. And then you get to the 2nd half of the season and all hell breaks loose and it's like WHOA BLOWING YOUR MIND.

The thing that's hard is that the first season did such a good job of getting you invested in the main characters that you want to get screen time with them and see their stories progress. So at this point, I really could not give a trout about Gay Wannabe King or Older Uglier Wannabe King with crazy witch lady. I really love Daenerys but her storyline is boring the hell outta me. I want more dragons! Rawr! Rather than, huuuungry. Duuuusty.

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I love Renly and Brienne--not so much Stannis. But I guess that's kind of the point. xD I just love character-driven stories, so I can deal with the impossible pacing.

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Originally Posted by Miriel

I was really happy to see Anne Boleyn in the last episode. Always trying to get pregnant.

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Seriously. xD Loved her in Tudors, and she's great in this. Despite wishing we had more time with, say, Arya, I like seeing more of Margery's character.

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Originally Posted by NeoTifa

I haven't seen the last 2 episodes, however, somebody mentioned feeling sorry for Theon. Reading the books I felt sorry for him, even though he is a superdouche. He just smurfed up. He's just trying so hard to prove himself, but winds up failing at life. Like the underdog who never stops being the underdog no matter how hard he tries.

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I feel the same way, just how the show is doing it it's much easier to feel that way. Of course, book spoilerwe haven't got to the part where he kills Bran and Rickon yet.

I can't stop my :stare: at what a boneheaded idiot Balon is. I can certainly understand his thirst for revenge against the Starks but the way he's acting you'd think he's completely incapable of human interaction that doesn't involve killing.

FISHERMAN
Ah, Lord Greyjoy, good to see you. Can I interest you in some of my fish? It's a fine catch today!
BALON
Hmph. Looks alright I suppose, for a wetnurse like you to catch.
FISHERMAN
As you say, M'lord.
BALON
I'll take this one.
FISHERMAN
Of course M'lord. That will be ten coppers.
BALON grabs the FISHERMAN by the shirt, hauls him over the counter, and throws him to the floor. BALON draws a knife and holds it to the FISHERMAN'S throat.
BALON
What are my words?
FISHERMAN
My lord?
BALON
We do not sow. I will not pay the gold price for this, but the iron one.
BALON stabs the FISHERMAN through the throat, killing him in seconds.

You are clearly not iron born, built of salt and sea. What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger. WE DO NOT SOW, MILF.

Yeah well remind me how that "We do not sow" business turned out for you Ironborn failhags in the Greyjoy Rebellion.

Oh that's right.

Mothersmurfing flaming sword wielding Thoros of god damn Myr busting down your walls is how, bitches.

Isn't most of the North inland anyway? What use are boats going to be?

Also how large of an army could a guy on a couple of dinky islands have?

I'm going to refrain from answering those questions.

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Originally Posted by Del Murder

Isn't most of the North inland anyway? What use are boats going to be?

Also how large of an army could a guy on a couple of dinky islands have?

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It's not the size of your army, it's your motion in the ocean.

If this ship's a rockin', don't come a knockin'. Because chances are there is brother-sister incest going on inside.

Oh man that final scene. Now we know where the smoke baby from lost came from!

I laughed at this episode a lot. Renly was hilarious in his interactions.

Yeah it was good to see Smokey getting some work.

Just wait til he does his job..

I didn't like the (SPOILER)smokey shadow birth. D=

I thought it looked stupid, honestly. It was weird enough in the book that I thought it would be handled more...discreetly in the show, I guess.

But other than that: :up:

Yeah that last scene was kind of :erm:

I felt like there was some real drama finally kicking into play in this episode. Joffrey is so loathsome, Tyrion so amazing, and Renly is one funny mothersmurfer.

Yeah feels like some wheels are starting to turn again!

I can't wait for something to happen in Dany's storyline. Qarth should be fun. But why do they all look so... white?

Did you not see the big black dude?

Pontus and I Skyped while we watched this episode.

He made the funniest face at the part where (SPOILER) Joffrey makes Roz beat the other prostitute. But the last scene of the episode I was freaking out and he was laughing really hard at me. WTF?

Also, Margaery wears the most stupid dresses.

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Originally Posted by Del Murder

Did you not see the big black dude?

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He wasn't even from Qarth!

They are in a desert place area, shouldn't they be more..... Tan?

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Originally Posted by Freya

They are in a desert place area, shouldn't they be more..... Tan?

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Rantz and I noted that made no sense.

Joffrey really is an awful bastard. I can't wait until he gets what's coming to him. :colbert:

What if he doesn't? /troll

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Originally Posted by fierytempest

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Originally Posted by Freya

They are in a desert place area, shouldn't they be more..... Tan?

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Rantz and I noted that made no sense.

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The Qarth merchants (Milk Men) are white to show their status. Despite being under the hot sun the entire time, they have enough wealth to ignore even the natural elements that should effect them. There was also the black dude (who caused a troutload of controversy when he was cast) and the Muslim looking dude.

So far this episode is pretty good and exactly as I imaigned it.

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Originally Posted by fierytempest

Also, Margaery wears the most stupid dresses.

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I like them. :D

Well that episode was amazing and I suddenly love Joffrey because he's really settling into being an evil tit and that crossbow made my panties kind of soaked. And I have absolutely no idea what happened at the end but holy tit what the actual smurf :whaaa:

Also Robb has gained some decent leadership chops, but my :save:STRATEGY SPERGING:save: tingled because you can't win a war without defining what victory is, and that means thinking about what comes after.

e: also when a place is so hideously grim and depressing that the arrival of Tywin Lannister comes as a breath of refreshing mercy and liberation, you know it's horrendous. Jesus Christ Harrenhal.

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Originally Posted by I'm my own MILF

e: also when a place is so hideously grim and depressing that the arrival of Tywin Lannister comes as a breath of refreshing mercy and liberation, you know it's horrendous. Jesus Christ Harrenhal.

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Hahahaha, I know right? I was like, "Yay, Tywin!" but then I was like, "Did I really just cheer for Tywin? That's messed up."

What's wrong with Tywin?

Other than being a terrible father, I guess.

The whole smashing babies heads in is a good start, I think!

That was the Mountain!

The Mountain was just Tywin's hammer, though. :P

Can I just take this opportunity to say how smurfing tit the new Gregor Clegane looks when comparedto the man mountain in S1.

I mean how hard is it to get a replacement 7 foot smurfer who's built like a....oh yea suppose....Even So....The new one looks like Stephen Merchant in a bobsleigh. Sort it out by the time he fights The Viper or I'm gonna slap the next raven I see.

Well smurf.

[spoilers]Renly[/spoilers] :cry: You were a beast. Goodnight, sweet prince, we hardly knew ye. :cry:

I'm sure the House of the Undying in Qarth are more powerful than mere parlor tricksters and I suspect Xaro Xhoan Daxos knows the Warlocks are more powerful than parlor tricksters, but he's going to want to make sure Dany doesn't go anywhere near them if so.

And holy trout Gendry topless :drool:

(SPOILER)Renly's death was random. That's probably something that reads better than to actually watch. Also, (SPOILER)if Stannis has access to smoke assassins, why not just smoke kill Joffrey, the Queen and all the rest of his enemies? Maybe he will.

I'm happy that the show has begun to pick up. Tyrion and Arya's stories are the best. The rest have been pretty boring, though it will be interesting to see what happens to Winterfell in the next episode.

[spoilers]Stannis pretty clearly detests using shadowbabby at all, and won't do so unless he feels it's absolutely necessary. I imagine that's why he's not just having everyone offed. Alternatively maybe there's some limits on it so that you can't just spam the enemy with loads of teleporting + backstab + incorporeal ghost mothersmurfers I mean I've never seen anything so imba in my life and I've fought shammies in vanilla WoW.[/spoilers]

Brienne is so awesome.

I loved Arya's staring down Tywin. That was awesome. He seemed unnerved.

This episode was great.

Re: Shadow assassin: the way I understand it, (no super spoilers, but stuff from the books)the birthing of one Stannis shadow babby takes a considerable toll on Stannis. He starts having nightmares and seems to have aged years after the fact. Presumably the magic involved uses part of his lifeforce or what have you. He's also one of the biggest sticklers for honour and justice in all of Westeros, it would make sense if he regretted using it even that much and didn't want to do it again.

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Originally Posted by Del Murder

(SPOILER)Renly's death was random. That's probably something that reads better than to actually watch. Also, (SPOILER)if Stannis has access to smoke assassins, why not just smoke kill Joffrey, the Queen and all the rest of his enemies? Maybe he will.

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I thought that (SPOILER)Renly's death looked awkward, too. I think that the aftermath was very well done, including Catelyn and Brienne's reactions, and I think that was handled better than in the book. It is difficult to portray what happened to a television screen without it seeming random.

Magic in the A Song of Ice and Fire series is very esoteric. It is difficult to say for sure whether or not even the practitioner truly understands what is going on.

(SPOILER)A recurring theme throughout the book is that only death can pay for life and only life can pay for death. Rantzien mentioned that Stannis seemed to be much older than he initially appeared and he does still have nightmares of the magic that he wrought on his brother. It could be that Melisandre was only able to perform that magic because of the blood connection that Stannis had with Renly. If you look closely, you can see that the shade has the appearance of Stannis and it was literally birthed from Melisandre. That type of magic likely used Stannis's lifeforce and Melisandre was merely a catalyst in the equation. I find the magic in the series very dark and powerful. It is implied that magic is getting stronger since the birth of the dragons and the coming of winter, so I wonder if Melisandre and other practitioners even truly understand their powers and what the source could be.

Melisandre seemed in the book and show both to know (SPOILER)what was going to happen with the shadow spawn, so she has some level of knowledge of her magic's properties. However, later in the books, (SPOILER)she foresees a young girl on a dying horse fleeing north to the wall. This part comes true, but she also says that the girl is Arya Stark, which is not true. So her foresight, her fire visions, are limited.


from book 5Melisandre seems to want Jon Snow to sleep with her to create another shadow creature in book 5 when she's at the wall with him. I thought I remembered some character mentioning "sex magic" being practiced somewhere in the eastern isles, but I don't remember who said it or what book it was in.

I've been somewhat surprised to see how quickly they've brought the "fantasy" elements (magic, dragons, white walkers, etc) into the show. I mean, it makes sense, but I still thought it would be more subtly handled at first simply because it comes into the books so slowly (which I kinda enjoyed). I'm quite interested now to see (SPOILER)the house of the undying in Qarth and (SPOILER)Bran's storyline with the greenseers

I'm with you Freya. That look between Arya and Tywin was intense. The show's done a great job of highlighting my favorite characters (Arya, Tyrion, etc.)

In the books, Brienne's girly hopeless romantic nature seems more like something that she doesn't show--though I'm not sure if that's just my interpretation--so to see her actually act all girly had me laughing my ass off.

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Originally Posted by Roogle

(SPOILER)It could be that Melisandre was only able to perform that magic because of the blood connection that Stannis had with Renly.

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Well, a little later in the book (SPOILER)she uses the same magic to end the siege of Storm's End by having the shade kill the castellan, Ser Courtnay Penrose.

Of course I loved Tyrion in it BUT the riot just seemed forced. It was much more dramatic for me in the books. It kind of fell flat for me in the show. Just wasn't quite.... hrm. The Sansa-Sandor part was good and Tyrion bitch slapping again was great but the actual riot was meh. Alfie Allen is playing such a good job of showing how incompetent Theon is. And I was laughing at the Jon and Ygritte part near the end when they were resting.

The Hound is a badman. That is all, you may proceed.

That scene wasn't as awesome as I originally thought it would be :( Still good though.

What did the note Arya was reading say?

Winterfell knights are always getting killed. I do not see good things in Theon's future. What an idiot.

Dany is also an idiot for (SPOILER)not having armed guards around her dragons at all times.

Arya's story has been the most interesting this season. (SPOILER)I don't know if Tywin knows who Arya is. I suspect he does, but if so he's doing a good job hiding it. Obviously Littlefinger knows.

Okay, so I'm just past in the book where we are in the show.

They've changed a lot more this season in regards to the book than they did in the last.

The part with Ygritte and Jon was LULZY. When I saw Baelish coming in I'm like, OH smurf. Also, Osha is so bad ass and I just love her. Rantz and I at the same time are like, "OMG TONKS TITS."

I agree with whoever said that Dany should have her dragons guarded at all times, although it really looks like in this case it wouldn't have mattered in anyways. So what, her Khalassar is down to like...3 people now? Some queen. I just think she is so whiny and annoying. I wouldn't give you ships, either! Like, shut up. In the book that slaughter didn't happen, and I wonder if it's just a plot device to get her to the House of the Undying. But seriously, I'm glad her dragons got taken away. She's insufferable.

Also, I'm kind of annoyed by that chick that they threw into the mix with Robb. It's just a way to make fan service. >.>

Yeah, what's up with that lady Robb is talking to? I don't see the point of her. She's not really doing anything... if her purpose is to show more of Robb's personality, they should have put her with someone who has one instead. HEYO!

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Originally Posted by Rantz Rantz Revolution

Yeah, what's up with that lady Robb is talking to? I don't see the point of her. She's not really doing anything... if her purpose is to show more of Robb's personality, they should have put her with someone who has one instead. HEYO!

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Robb is hot. He doesn't need a personality.

Hahahahaha Dany you silly woman what have you done

Also Theon you sad little sack of watery turds, you're about as competent and confident a leader as Steven Iceglow-Smif would be.

I, too, do not care for the character they introduced into Robb's drama filled war. It's too forced, silly, and the character is too dry and far removed from the books. I don't understand this move.

Another move I don't understand was the ending to this episode. It's too dramatic in comparison with the books and, while this is a television drama and that's the entire point, it seems too dull and stupid of a change to even bother with. It changes the dynamic of how the entire Qarth events unfold.

Theon is doing a marvelous job of showing just how utterly incompetent and stupid he is, so good on the actor for doing that. Joffrey continues to be an insufferable :bou::bou::bou::bou: and Tyrion continues to be incredible. I wasn't bothered by the riot scene and it didn't feel that forced to me, the only real difference that I can tell was the removal of the horses from the books, which is understandable since that would be a hard scene to shoot. The Sansa scene was difficult to watch but good overall.

Overall, this was probably my least favorite episode of the season, possibly overall. Which is sad.

I agree. The scene with Sansa was really upsetting.

Well they need to do something with Dany because she has to stay onscreen but obviously her dragon's are still babbies and not much use in a war. I don't know how fast they grow but I doubt they'll be ready to fight before like season 5 or something.

This show has changed so much form the books that i've literally no idea what's gonna happen next. I expected some changes but smurf me. Literaly whole plots have disappeared & been re-written. I guess this means no Reeds then. No Jeyne Westerling.

Also the sudden & unexplained disappearance of the Greatjon has been noted.

You can read about Talisa Maegyr here: Talisa Maegyr - Game of Thrones Wiki

It looks like the initial cast announcement mentioned that she had been cast as Jeyne. I'm not sure whether they decided to rework her character to make her more of a foreigner like Shae or if she is Jeyne Westerling in disguise for some reason. Who knows? It's interesting. I assume that George R. R. Martin works with the show closely enough to approve all of these little changes, as I'm sure he had small regrets with the direction his story goes as more of the books are released.

He has to approve of it since he writes an episode a season. That's not just an author going "yeah they've taken liberties, that's what happens with this stuff." No he's participating in the changes. So I have faith it'll all come together because of that.

Yeah, exactly. I'm almost certain that there are little things that he would have wanted to go back and approach differently if given the chance, and maybe these changes with some of the female characters like Shae are examples of that.

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Originally Posted by Psychotic

The Hound is a badman. That is all, you may proceed.

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No way, he's a darling!

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Originally Posted by McLovin'

What did the note Arya was reading say?

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Nothing particularly interesting...
http://i.imgur.com/9D6Ys.jpg

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Originally Posted by Del Murder

Arya's story has been the most interesting this season. (SPOILER)I don't know if Tywin knows who Arya is. I suspect he does, but if so he's doing a good job hiding it. Obviously Littlefinger knows.

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I'm almost positive he doesn't. I do love their relationship though--that he clearly already likes Arya better than his own children.

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Originally Posted by Rantz Rantz Revolution

Yeah, what's up with that lady Robb is talking to? I don't see the point of her. She's not really doing anything... if her purpose is to show more of Robb's personality, they should have put her with someone who has one instead. HEYO!

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Robb isn't a POV character in the books, so, despite a lot of fans liking him, his storylines don't get much detail. They're simply adding more detail to a storyline that gets mostly skipped over in the books. Sidenote: The actress in question is Carlie Chaplin's granddaughter.

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Originally Posted by Bunny

I, too, do not care for the character they introduced into Robb's drama filled war. It's too forced, silly, and the character is too dry and far removed from the books. I don't understand this move.

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It's not far-removed from the books; the books just skip this part. I'm pretty sure minor spoilerJeyne is just using a fake name. Her character in the books is really undeveloped, so I don't mind them giving the romance a bit of screen time..

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Originally Posted by Bunny

Theon is doing a marvelous job of showing just how utterly incompetent and stupid he is, so good on the actor for doing that.

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Agreed. Theon's storyline is probably my least favorite in the books, but the show and Alfie have made it very compelling.

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Originally Posted by Roogle

You can read about Talisa Maegyr here: Talisa Maegyr - Game of Thrones Wiki

It looks like the initial cast announcement mentioned that she had been cast as Jeyne. I'm not sure whether they decided to rework her character to make her more of a foreigner like Shae or if she is Jeyne Westerling in disguise for some reason. Who knows? It's interesting. I assume that George R. R. Martin works with the show closely enough to approve all of these little changes, as I'm sure he had small regrets with the direction his story goes as more of the books are released.

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GRRM does work very closely with the show. He originally worked in TV, so he has a good understanding on what works in books versus on-screen. Who knows? Maybe this is Jeyne's actual backstory that we didn't get to see in the books. minor spoilerAfterall, her backstory in the books got, like, one sentence of explanation. Doesn't make for a very compelling romance.

P.S. Chills:
http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3...f0ggo1_250.gif

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Originally Posted by Shlup

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Originally Posted by Bunny

I, too, do not care for the character they introduced into Robb's drama filled war. It's too forced, silly, and the character is too dry and far removed from the books. I don't understand this move.

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It's not far-removed from the books; the books just skip this part. I'm pretty sure minor spoilerJeyne is just using a fake name. Her character in the books is really undeveloped, so I don't mind them giving the romance a bit of screen time..

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What do you mean "the books just skip this part"? What would be the point of Jeyne even using a fake name? She's gone, I don't understand this particular speculation.

book spoilerThe books skipped the building of Robb and Jeyne's relationship. It was basically just "Hey, Mom, meet my wife. She helped me get better when I was hurt, so I had sex with her." She's a catalyst for future events, but her character and their romance gets very little attention, which a lot of people were bummed about because Robb is a popular character. In the show, Robb is getting more attention so it makes sense that they'd give his love story more attention. The casting states that the actress was cast as Jeyne Westerling, and she's made it clear that she's trying to cover up the fact that she's a lady, so it seems likely that she's using a fake name. What's the point of her using a fake identity? I suppose we'll see.

Possible Book SpoilersBut the only reason the books skipped the development was because Robb Stark isn't a PoV character (which GRRM did on purpose) so it makes sense that they wouldn't discuss the beginning of their romance. Unless Robb was talking to Catelyn (the only person in his family that he has contact to after the first book) since they were in the middle of a war. If I recall correctly, there is a part in the book which makes the readers speculate that the reason they are together is because Jeyne got pregnant (I'm not so sure if it points to Robb as the father or if he's just being honorable about it).

I understand giving Robb's love story more attention, but it makes more sense to ditch Jeyne completely and create an entirely new character, with an entirely new back story, rather than build on a weakly established character with very little background whose only real connection to the overall story is the fact that she's from one of the older houses in Westeros. Not to mention Talisa gave her last name of Maegyr, which shares a commonality with a character in a later book from Voltanis. What's the point of using a fake name tied to such a far away place simply to hide the fact that you are a lady? But I guess we will see. Doesn't matter either way, just seems like one of the dumber pieces of speculation that I've heard about a character in the show, especially when there are easier ways to explain Talisa's appearance.

I don't get why you think it's a better idea to make a whole new love interest for Robb rather than just build on Jeyne, but whatever. Time will tell if this storyline gets better or not.

book spoilerRobb and Jeyne got married the day after they had sex, so they wouldn't know if she was pregnant. At some point Jeyne laments to Cat that she isn't pregnant, despite their vigorous efforts. Though we haven't heard from Jeyne for awhile, so it's still possible that she's got a little Stark in her.

I don't get why you think Jeyne is using a fake name to avoid Robb or any other character from figuring out her real identity.

Because the casting list lists her as "Jeyne Westerling" and the character so far has been avoiding talking about who she is.

I don't really care if it turns out to be a whole new character, just leaning towards it being Jeyne because of the above.

She was initially listed as Jeyne because nobody knew they were going to change her character's story. It's since been changed, as far as I know and according to most of the 'official' sites to Talisa with no real mention of Jeyne except to note that she was "previously listed as Jeyne."

The GoT subreddit seems to still think it's Jeyne, but if you say so. I'm just plain too lazy to verify that. As long as Robb gets some action I'm happy.

So apparently GoT is the Most Torrented show of the year so far. Of course this is just torrents and not streaming sites.

So the kids are dead? That's stupid. Clearly, the show made it look like they were NOT dead so I assume they'll be back. So two episodes left and everyone is still basically where they were 8 episodes ago lol. This book seems shorter than the first. Is there ever going to be a purpose to the storylines going on in the North or with Danerys? Cas while it's nice to get away from Westeros now and then...nothing happens to Jon or Danerys. Yeah her dragons were taken, womp womp. Jon got a boner, hooray. This shows recipe seems to be that only trout happend in the last 2 episodes.

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So the kids are dead? That's stupid. Clearly, the show made it look like they were NOT dead so I assume they'll be back. So two episodes left and everyone is still basically where they were 8 episodes ago lol. This book seems shorter than the first. Is there ever going to be a purpose to the storylines going on in the North or with Danerys? Cas while it's nice to get away from Westeros now and then...nothing happens to Jon or Danerys. Yeah her dragons were taken, womp womp. Jon got a boner, hooray. This shows recipe seems to be that only tit happend in the last 2 episodes.

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Yes, there is a point to Jon and Dany's stories. They're just going slower because they are the only characters in which you view their actions from. And of course the story is going to ramp up towards the end. It's a television show based on a book. Books in a series typically follow the same recipe.

Also: Worst Mother's Day Ever.

Hahah it was huh? Poor Catelyn had such a bad mothers day :(

I am just anxious for Blackwater. It needs to get here already.

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Originally Posted by Bunny

Yes, there is a point to Jon and Dany's stories. They're just going slower because they are the only characters in which you view their actions from.

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They are already struggling to cram these books into ten hour long episodes, so it blows my mind that they are wasting significant chunks of time putting Jon & Daenerys' characters through plotless tribulations which are not even in the source material. Listening to Ygritte beckon and tease Jon for nearly ten minutes was an obnoxious waste of time, and basically everything about Qarth and the events therein are lame, unnecessary, and do not belong in the universe of this show. Now that we have a magician that can effortlessly make innumerable copies of himself at absolutely no cost to his being if one is, say, skewered through the heart, we might as well have Superman. There is absolutely no reason that this magician isn't the supreme ruler of Westeros and the universe beyond with that kind of power. Very strange.

That scene with Jaime and that poor Lannister cousin was so intense. He literally is indeed a man without honour. Also I think I really like Ygritte. She's really funny and is a-okay in my book. Theon is truly a Prince of :bou::bou::bou::bou:s. Cersei actually showed a human side! Also, Tywin and Arya should team up and go on a wacky adventure together. :)

I'm finding it hard to care about Qarth or any of the characters there though. Yeah, wohoo, some sort of political plotting. Creepy Wizard Dude and Bootstraps Rich Guy team up to overthrow Snooty Twatface and assorted people I don't care about. Allow me to pick my jaw up from the floor! The reason why the politics works so well in Westeros is because we genuinely give a smurf about every character involved there.

So Robb's going to the Crag and insisted the girl went too. I guess she is going to end up being Jeyne after all. & the reason it wasn't advertised was to keep this storyline going.

I was wrong. I have brought dishonour upon my family.

Btw. I'm wioth Paul. I lose interest everytime the screen goes yellow hinting at a hot place as i know its gonna be a tiny blonde barking on about dragons and a honey hairey fella trying to bark the tiny blonde.

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Originally Posted by Shlup

book spoilerThe books skipped the building of Robb and Jeyne's relationship. It was basically just "Hey, Mom, meet my wife. She helped me get better when I was hurt, so I had sex with her." She's a catalyst for future events, but her character and their romance gets very little attention, which a lot of people were bummed about because Robb is a popular character. In the show, Robb is getting more attention so it makes sense that they'd give his love story more attention. The casting states that the actress was cast as Jeyne Westerling, and she's made it clear that she's trying to cover up the fact that she's a lady, so it seems likely that she's using a fake name. What's the point of her using a fake identity? I suppose we'll see.

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I agree with Amanda about the character Talisa and Jeyne. I think it is just a buildup to a romance plot that was left out of the books due to the multiple points of view writing. I think that the show is giving George R. R. Martin a chance to elaborate on some of the points that readers may have missed or not really addressed in the book, like the nature of Renly and Loras' relationship. In that case, there were numerous hints, but I've talked to a lot of people that completely missed that subtext. (SPOILER) If you have read the latest book, were you able to tell that Jon Connington had a crush on Raegar?

Thoughts on this episode:

-Dany is just like, a terrible character and has a terrible story. And it seems liker her actress is getting worse to me. Also, her hair looks like trout, and I'm sad they didn't giver her proper Qarthian garb wear her tit hangs out.

-Jeyne Westerling is as depressing as Jon. They need to get together.

-While kind of pointless, the Ygritte/Jon exchange was really funny.

-I do not understand why when Sansa had her period, there was so much blood it looked like someone stabbed her in the vagina.

-And lastly, I think the part where Circe cries can be best summed up by my conversation with Pontus:
[3:19:07 PM] Sam: omg
[3:19:10 PM] Sam: so uncomfortable
[3:19:13 PM] Pontus: lol
[3:19:13 PM] Sam: he's like
[3:19:14 PM] Sam: uuuuh
[3:19:17 PM] Sam: should i like
[3:19:18 PM] Sam: hug you
[3:19:21 PM] Sam: give you a tissue
[3:19:23 PM] Pontus: haha
[3:19:23 PM] Sam: or just like, go?

I feel like they're dragging out the rest of the storylines because they need Theon's to catch up and to build Joffrey as a monster worth overthrowing. It's a little bit of a bummer, but I still find the scenes entertaining.

Let's be honest, nothing really happens with Jon until the end of the book, so bringing in Ygrette early is at least funny.

And this story with Rob was outright skipped in the book.

And nothing happens with Dany in this book or the next (though I don't really care for magic bird man).

I loved Cersei in this episode; she's a nutter but I've always thought she was a great character, and her admitting Joff is terrible was very humanizing, something I think was missing from the books.

And we all know we love the Tywin/Arya scenes. Love love.

I feel like most of the complaints about the storylines right now are simultaneously that nothing is happening with certain characters, even though not much happens with them in the books, so the writers add some things to try and make it more interesting for TV, and then the same people complain about the things added for TV. I think our expectations are all just a bit high.

Most of all, though, I'm freaking out that book spoilerBJ has to think for a whole week that Bran and Rickon are dead when I know quite well that they're not. It's hard to not yell out spoilers sometimes. xD

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Originally Posted by Shlup

And we all know we love the Tywin/Arya scenes. Love love.

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Srsly, I squee every time one comes on. It's probably my favourite change from the books. There's a fantastic dynamic between those two.

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Most of all, though, I'm freaking out that book spoilerBJ has to think for a whole week that Bran and Rickon are dead when I know quite well that they're not. It's hard to not yell out spoilers sometimes. xD

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(SPOILER)He'll learn to scoff at not-explicitly-shown deaths soon enough. If not after this then after Storm of Swords spoilerthe Arya scare during the RW, if they put it in the show.

Tyrion Lannister just corrected Cersei's misuse of "strategy" where she should have used "tactics".

You have absolutely not the faintest notion how happy this makes me.

You're right, I really don't. I thought he was just being a tit. Explain!

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Originally Posted by Shlup

You're right, I really don't. I thought he was just being a tit. Explain!

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What she said.

Although I guess he means that a strategy is something well thought out and planned, and a tactic is just a ploy?

Mayhaps.

Strategy is overall plan, a tactic is just one move. I BELIEVE.

If someone can provide a roundly accepted definition of these things you'll be a very popular strategist indeed. In essence, a tactic is something that takes place within the confines of a battle - a charge at this point in the battle, sneaking a company behind enemy lines to disrupt communications, or the use of book spoilerBronn firewater to smurf up Stannis "They will bend the knee or I will destroy them" Baratheon's fleet. A strategy is a much broader thing that has a much more direct link with the war effort as a whole - to bring the enemy to battle at a particular place, to decide to use the fleet or stay in King's Landing in the first place, or episode 4 spoilerto have Shadowbabby assassinate Renly "The Beast" Baratheon. So scale can be a useful indicator, but I suppose the most obvious quick, if a bit rough, way to tell is does this move affect a battle or the whole war. Of course, a battle can deeply influence the outcome of a war, so you begin to see the problem!

(We also have much literature that suggests that there is a third stage in between these two, the Operational level, and a fourth stage at the top, Grand Strategy. The former is widely accepted, the latter not so much but still fairly solidly.)

Back on the topic, I smurfing love how Pree used his parlor trick to smurf up the Thirteen like a totally creepy boss.

Strategy is the overall planning of an operation, tactics is what you decided to do to get the strategy working.

Nope.

Yep.

BLACK WATER EEEEEEE



This recent episode was boring. Dany needs to just go do something already. I did enjoy the Jamie/Brienne scene though

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Originally Posted by Freya

This recent episode was boring.

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No! Tyrion was being a stand up beast. Bronn was a beast in the scene he was in. Arya tellin' Jaqen was beastin'. Davos Seaworth? You better believe he was a beast. Robb facing up to Kingdom and boning some bint? How beastoriffic. Theon being learned by Asha was beastin' and you better believe Joffrey's threat to Uncle Stannis was the most beastastic thing you'll ever see on TV this year.

also tyrion. Counting him twice.

Lol, Paul, you're kind of a dork.

Agreed with Freya that Dany needs to shut up and do something already. She has like, two who lines in this show. "Get my dragons back!" and "THEY ARE MY CHILDREN!" and variants etc etc.

Dude, Jaqen is hot.

Also lol at Robb/Jeyne sex scene where she kept her boots on.

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Originally Posted by Psychotic

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Originally Posted by Freya

This recent episode was boring.

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No! Tyrion was being a stand up beast. Bronn was a beast in the scene he was in. Arya tellin' Jaqen was beastin'. Davos Seaworth? You better believe he was a beast. Robb facing up to Kingdom and boning some bint? How beastoriffic. Theon being learned by Asha was beastin' and you better believe Joffrey's threat to Uncle Stannis was the most beastastic thing you'll ever see on TV this year.

also tyrion. Counting him twice.

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I agree, this was a cool episode. The Bronn/Tyrion exchange was funny. It was like watching an old married couple bickering. I liked the Davos-Stannis exchange too.

I agree that the Dany parts have grown stale (though she was only shown for a minute or so in the latest episode to whine a bit), but it's not like there's a whole lot to work with in the books.

I gotta give the show credit for making Robb more interesting. It's hard to believe such good children came from such a monumentally stupid bitch.

I disagree. I think the House of the Undying is one of the most interesting parts of Storm of Swords. Since there are only two episodes left, and next episode seems to mostly focus on Blackwater, I don't see that coming into play.

Too much setup!

Also I was super bored when Robb's doctor lady told her story about how you should always learn CPR. They do that a lot in this show; having two characters sitting together while one tells some boring story. Less talk, more action please. I was about to cringe when the preview for next week came on...WAR...IS...and if it said 'COMING' then I was going to throw my remote at the TV, but fortunately it said 'HERE' so hopefully we get the action it's been building up to for 8 episodes.

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Originally Posted by Del Murder

Too much setup!

Also I was super bored when Robb's doctor lady told her story about how you should always learn CPR. They do that a lot in this show; having two characters sitting together while one tells some boring story. Less talk, more action please. I was about to cringe when the preview for next week came on...WAR...IS...and if it said 'COMING' then I was going to throw my remote at the TV, but fortunately it said 'HERE' so hopefully we get the action it's been building up to for 8 episodes.

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She kept going on with her story, and Pontus asked me, "Why is she telling this again?"

This episode was probably the most boring yet. It's understandable though, since it consists almost entirely of setup for the last two episodes of the season. Still, there were some good moments between almost all of the characters. Jon and Dany's story continue to be boring, but that's mostly because they have no meat to them since the characters are largely irrelevant for most of the book. I'm sure Dany will get more interested in the season finale, same with Jon.

I love Bronn and I want more of him. Seeing Varys again was good too.

Apparently they got the director of that movie centurion or something, and they had to keep trying to tell him, "tone it down! We don't have THAT much money" cause he was adding more action scenes. Eventually they just let him do whatever and that's when they had to ask for more money from HBO. Luckily HBO gave them more ha. So this next episode should be amazing, action wise that is.

The entire season has been a buildup for the next episode. Eeeee!

I feel like anyone who would think Cat is stupid hasn't bothered to take a moment to really put themselves in her shoes. Her husband was murdered, the murderers hold her daughters (well, they don't know Arya's MIA), another murderer has her little boys... though I was sure that at this point in the books she had heard Theon killed the boys. She is a mother, and all of her childrens' lives are in very direct danger. If I were her, I would be smurfing trout up all over the place to save my kids. Getting her girls back costs her, what, Jaime? In the books she makes him swear an oath not to take up arms again, at least. Regardless, what kind of parent wouldn't trade one guy for their captive children? He's a good fighter, sure, but it's not even like he's a great tactician; he can be captured or killed, but there may not be another chance for Cat to save her girls, especially since Karstark was looking to kill Jaime the first chance he'd get.

P.S. Charlie Chaplin's granddaughter has a wonderful tush.

http://i.imgur.com/OpMB9.jpg

I'm too excited about blackwater.

I am actually not looking forward to next week's episode. I thought Blackwater was one of the most boring parts of Storm of Swords.

We already decided you'd have preferred a fashion show as the big conflict in Clash of Kings. So shoo shoo you.

I hate you, Kaycee.

:kaoclove:

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Originally Posted by Shlup

I feel like anyone who would think Cat is stupid hasn't bothered to take a moment to really put themselves in her shoes. Her husband was murdered, the murderers hold her daughters (well, they don't know Arya's MIA), another murderer has her little boys... though I was sure that at this point in the books she had heard Theon killed the boys. She is a mother, and all of her childrens' lives are in very direct danger. If I were her, I would be smurfing trout up all over the place to save my kids. Getting her girls back costs her, what, Jaime? In the books she makes him swear an oath not to take up arms again, at least. Regardless, what kind of parent wouldn't trade one guy for their captive children? He's a good fighter, sure, but it's not even like he's a great tactician; he can be captured or killed, but there may not be another chance for Cat to save her girls, especially since Karstark was looking to kill Jaime the first chance he'd get.

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If she had even the slightest reason to think releasing Jaime actually would result in her getting her daughters back, maybe. But she doesn't. At all.

And this is not too far removed from when she arrested Tyrion and insisted he tried to kill Bran on absolutely no evidence, risking her husband's and daughters' lives in the process.

Yeah, Cat is retarded. You can sympathize in her position without condoning her conduct. IIRC, it was around this point in the books that I wrote Cat off as a character for simply being just too unrealistically stupid.

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Originally Posted by Raistlin

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Originally Posted by Shlup

I feel like anyone who would think Cat is stupid hasn't bothered to take a moment to really put themselves in her shoes. Her husband was murdered, the murderers hold her daughters (well, they don't know Arya's MIA), another murderer has her little boys... though I was sure that at this point in the books she had heard Theon killed the boys. She is a mother, and all of her childrens' lives are in very direct danger. If I were her, I would be smurfing tit up all over the place to save my kids. Getting her girls back costs her, what, Jaime? In the books she makes him swear an oath not to take up arms again, at least. Regardless, what kind of parent wouldn't trade one guy for their captive children? He's a good fighter, sure, but it's not even like he's a great tactician; he can be captured or killed, but there may not be another chance for Cat to save her girls, especially since Karstark was looking to kill Jaime the first chance he'd get.

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If she had even the slightest reason to think releasing Jaime actually would result in her getting her daughters back, maybe. But she doesn't. At all.

And this is not too far removed from when she arrested Tyrion and insisted he tried to kill Bran on absolutely no evidence, risking her husband's and daughters' lives in the process.

Yeah, Cat is retarded. You can sympathize in her position without condoning her conduct. IIRC, it was around this point in the books that I wrote Cat off as a character for simply being just too unrealistically stupid.

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It can be argued that her doing that started the chain of events that got Ned beheaded and started this whole war.

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Originally Posted by Raistlin

If she had even the slightest reason to think releasing Jaime actually would result in her getting her daughters back, maybe. But she doesn't. At all.

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I disagree. It was a desperate, grief-driven move, but I don't agree at all that there's no chance Cersei would trade the girls for Jaime. Also, that decision leads to Brienne and Jaime hanging out, which is one of my favorite storylines, and leads to Jaime becoming one of my favorite characters. So even if you're unable to emphathise with Cat (and I really honestly don't expect you of all people to be capable of that), the results of that decision, so far, have been awesome.

Though I do agree that arresting Tyrion was a bad decision. Still, every character has made at least one decision that bad or worse, but we don't just declare "This book is full of retards!" and quit reading.

Arresting Tyrion turned out to have titty consequences, but attempting to trade off Jaime so far has had awesome consequences so boo on you both.

Also huge book spoilerif someone from the Northern army didn't kill Jaime beforehand (as they stated directly, in the show that they probably would have), he would've been released during the Red Wedding anyway. Cat couldn't have predicted the Red Wedding, obviously, but I say it all worked out the best way it was gonna.

Are you booing me? What did I do? :(

Supporting Raistlin in any capacity gets you boo'd.

I can completely understand why she'd try to trade Jaime Lannister. Yeah, it probably wouldn't have worked, buuuuuuuuuut...it was the only way she could forsee a chance of getting back her daughters. I always kind of thought Robb was a dick for caring more about his appearance as a king than his sisters.

But I think it was stupid she kidnapped Tyrion.

I dunno, Jaime is well, a badass, and not only that he's a symbol for the lannisters. He was a leader of their armies. He was a very important captive. His capture was a huge blow to the Lannister's morale as well as their forces. If they gave him back he would be back with the lannisters and could be fighting and winning against them and their cause.

Cat just letting him go was a stupid move. The way she did it was a stupid way. It wasn't like it would have been in any form a successful return, one person (show wise) to escort one of the most important captives across the land to negotiate a trade of the Stark girls. Like the Lannisters would really, in good faith, give them back. Just from the knowledge they have at that point, they wouldn't be the type of people to just be like "OH OKAY HERE have your girls back ^_^ it's all good ^_^" The only knowledge (show wise) that they have that they'd ever give them up is Littlefinger going "yeah we'll totes give em back." There was no agreement, no formal discussion. No it was just her going "oh I HOPE they are true to their word even though they are notorious for smurfing our trout up. I'll get my girls back!"

It was a stupid move. Stupid. Even grief stricken as she is in the books, it's still stupid. I understand she sees it as her only option to get some of her only living children back but it doesn't mean it wasn't a stupid move and Robb has every right to be a dick about it. She just lost a valuable asset to his cause. Even before the Jeyne nonsense, he could have at least been like "well I still have the kingslayer yo" but he didn't. So after he loses support book spoilerfrom the freys and the karstarks and then the whole losing the kingslayer thing as well as theon messing up his trout in winterfell so he doesn't even have a home to go to, he's left with a very weak camp. According to the TV storyline so far, he's already lost winterfell. Okay that's a strike down but he still has the kingslayer, OH WAIT nvm. Well at least he'll still have the book spoiler kindasupport of his troops, OH WAIT he just ruined that by sleeping with Charlie Chaplin's grandaughter just they haven't shown the repercussions of that little tryst just yet. Theu just alluded to it when he mentioned he didn't want the Frey girl. So yah, Cat made an extremely stupid move for the King of the North. He makes an equally stupid move but it just weakens an already weakened camp due to her move.

Cat is really the big reason everything ends up the way it is. The tensions were palpable with Ned in the capital, yah, but with her taking Tyrion, she causes everything to just spark off and take motion. She was the one who put her children in such danger. Grief stricken or not, it doesn't mean it was a smart move. And hell, instead of getting her ass back to winterfell to be with her youngest children not in the capital she chills out with Robb. Whom, while he is leading a war, he is very capable of defending himself as well as everyone around him. What is she really going to do to help with being there? She's no Brienne. In the show they don't even have the lord hoster thing to keep her there. She's just chillin' to chill. If she was at winterfell she could have been like "Uh Bran, probably not a good idea to send all the men away from winterfell when everyone wants your family dead cause of the war going on...." But no, she's so worried about certain parts of her family that she forgets others. Apparently Bran and Rickon weren't important to her even though one was like 6 and the other a cripple. Cat is an idiot.

Jaime is a good fighter, and he's a symbol to the Lannisters, but that's about it. He's already been captured, and that morale blow isn't going to be completely undone just because he's back. major book spoilerBesides the fact that he doesn't make it back in one piece... The girls being captive is also a huge blow the the Northern army, and makes them weaker in that they don't want to do anything that could get the girls killed. Lannisters are tricky, but they always pay their debts. I don't agree that it was all that stupid. I really doubt that there are many people who, seeing one opportunity to get their children back from the people who murdered their husband, would pass that up because he's a good war prize, especially what with so many people in that camp already planning on killing him.

Every single character does at least one thing as stupid as anything Cat has done. I don't get why she gets so much crap for the things she does for her kids, while the motivations for most of the bad decisions made my characters in this series are done for far stupider reasons.

He's not just a symbol he is one of THE lannisters. He's not some cousin or anything, that's a direct slap in the face to them. If they, the northern army, were really worried about the girls as an army they wouldn't fight the war at all. Yet, they are, so they must not care that much. Cat gets the hate because she deserves it. At least others redeem themselves in their mistakes. Cat just keeps making more of them. She claims she makes them for the safety of her children but by doing so she endangers more of her children. All the men do want to harm jamie but by her releasing him it makes robb weak and discord with them and puts him in danger. Good job Cat!

Um, didn't they explicitly say that Mr. Handsome Man Kingslayer was going to die that night? If I were Cat, and the options were A) Let the mob take his head off, or B) I could try and trade him for my girls, I would try and trade him.

Calling out Cat as being especially stupid is the stupidest thing ever. Because as far as I'm concerned, pretty much everyone on this show aside from Tyrion and Arya are idiots. Ned was stupid, Theon is stupid, Jon Snow seems epically stupid AND emo, even Daenerys is not too bright. Who leaves their dragons alone in a strange place? I mean, really now.

Just a bunch of stupid people killing each other or getting naked with each other. That's what this show is. And on that note, I am so tired of seeing so many tits and ass from the women and hardly anything at all from the men. I wanted that silly nurse girl's butt to get out of the way (even though it was a very nice butt) so that I could get some Rob eyecandy. But nooooo, it's always with the naked girls. That pisses me off. Sexism, dammit!

I found this, it amused me. A chicken will move.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m4...1vrdo1_500.gif

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Originally Posted by Freya

He's not just a symbol he is one of THE lannisters. He's not some cousin or anything, that's a direct slap in the face to them. If they, the northern army, were really worried about the girls as an army they wouldn't fight the war at all. Yet, they are, so they must not care that much. Cat gets the hate because she deserves it. At least others redeem themselves in their mistakes. Cat just keeps making more of them. She claims she makes them for the safety of her children but by doing so she endangers more of her children. All the men do want to harm jamie but by her releasing him it makes robb weak and discord with them and puts him in danger. Good job Cat!

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I disagree with all of this quite a lot. Also, Cat doesn't want this war. She doesn't dig vengeance.

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Originally Posted by Miriel

Um, didn't they explicitly say that Mr. Handsome Man Kingslayer was going to die that night? If I were Cat, and the options were A) Let the mob take his head off, or B) I could try and trade him for my girls, I would try and trade him.

Calling out Cat as being especially stupid is the stupidest thing ever.

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*hi5*

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Originally Posted by Miriel

And on that note, I am so tired of seeing so many tits and ass from the women and hardly anything at all from the men. I wanted that silly nurse girl's butt to get out of the way (even though it was a very nice butt) so that I could get some Rob eyecandy. But nooooo, it's always with the naked girls. That pisses me off. Sexism, dammit!

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This too! Naked women are pretty and all, but the only dongs we've gotten have been Hodor's and Theon's. Theon looked pretty good naked, but he's a total butterface. The Chaplin girl had a very nice bum, but I wanted to throw things at the screen when the scene cut before showing me Robb's goodies. Life is so unfair.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Miriel

Calling out Cat as being especially stupid is the stupidest thing ever. Because as far as I'm concerned, pretty much everyone on this show aside from Tyrion and Arya are idiots. Ned was stupid, Theon is stupid, Jon Snow seems epically stupid AND emo, even Daenerys is not too bright. Who leaves their dragons alone in a strange place? I mean, really now.

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I never let my dragons out of sight.

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Originally Posted by Shlup

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Originally Posted by Miriel

And on that note, I am so tired of seeing so many tits and ass from the women and hardly anything at all from the men. I wanted that silly nurse girl's butt to get out of the way (even though it was a very nice butt) so that I could get some Rob eyecandy. But nooooo, it's always with the naked girls. That pisses me off. Sexism, dammit!

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This too! Naked women are pretty and all, but the only dongs we've gotten have been Hodor's and Theon's. Theon looked pretty good naked, but he's a total butterface. The Chaplin girl had a very nice bum, but I wanted to throw things at the screen when the scene cut before showing me Robb's goodies. Life is so unfair.

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It could be argued that Hodor showed twice as much skin as any girl has so far...

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Originally Posted by Shlup

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Miriel

And on that note, I am so tired of seeing so many tits and ass from the women and hardly anything at all from the men. I wanted that silly nurse girl's butt to get out of the way (even though it was a very nice butt) so that I could get some Rob eyecandy. But nooooo, it's always with the naked girls. That pisses me off. Sexism, dammit!

---

This too! Naked women are pretty and all, but the only dongs we've gotten have been Hodor's and Theon's. Theon looked pretty good naked, but he's a total butterface. The Chaplin girl had a very nice bum, but I wanted to throw things at the screen when the scene cut before showing me Robb's goodies. Life is so unfair.

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We also so the dong of the guy who tried to assassinate Dany in season one. I too wanted to see Robb dong.

Chaplin's boobies were nice too.

Cat is stupid. Deal with it. This time though yes her actions were driven by grief rather than just plain ol' garden variety stupid like the time she captured Tyrion, which caused all of it, the war, Ned's death, all of it.

Cat is the most idiotic annoying smurfer in the books. This one woman caused a war, got ppl she loved killed and has the emotional maturity of a 13 year old One Direction fan.

smurf er

Interesting Fact: Oona Chaplin is Charlie Chaplins granddaugter and the great granddaughter of of the Nobel laureate Eugene O'Neill, who disowned his daughter for marrying Chaplain.

You people are gross.

Jaime pushed Bran out a window, book spoiler?Joffrey sent an assassin after Bran using Tyrion's knife, Cat arrested Tyrion, Jaime attacked Ned in the streets and killed a bunch of his men. That was pretty much the end of that. The war started because Ned found out about the incest and was stupid enough to warn Cersei, which got him arrested, and then Joffrey killed Ned even after he swallowed his pride and falsely confessed to treason. That's what started the war.

book spoiler?Joffrey tried to kill Bran, but left evidence that it was Tyrion, leading Cat to arrest Tyrion. Joffrey killed Ned after being told not to. Yet you all blame Cat. Call her stupid, despite every single character making huge mistakes that lead to bunches of people dying. Name a character and I will name a decision they made that led to worse consequences than anything Catelyn has done. You all are dumbtits and I hate you and I hope it rains on your wedding day.

book spoiler?Are you sure it was Joffrey who tried to kill Bran? Kid was 12 at the time. Hard to plan an assassination at that age, especially for something you are seemingly unaware of. Unless that is a future book spoiler. That whole thing was never explained properly.

I don't think it's a book spoiler. I spoiler tagged our posts just in case though. I'm pretty sure they laid out who ordered what in the show, though I don't think they were very explicit about it. I do know they said in the show that Joffrey ordered the Gold Cloaks to kill all of Robert's bastards, when in the books that was Cersei. They're making Cersei more human in the show, and making Joffrey more of a sociopath. The scene with him abusing the hookers didn't happen in the books.

Jamie attacked Ned in the street BECAUSE cat capture Tyrion. Causing Jamie to flee and the Lannisters to start raising and army. So the lannisters were already kinda "WTH MAN?!" At the Starks then Cersei hears from the silly little girl that Ned is planning on leaving/outing her incest. Well of course she tries to make the first move. He's about to ruin them. He makes the mistake of tellin' her he knows about it and as far as she knew he had evidence to prove it. And when Robert goes "yo give back tyrion" On his death bed, Ned's all "i can't it's my wife :( sorry" Because he wants to defend her honor as well as his. They could have avoided the whole mess and just gave Tyrion back and actually presented the evidence of the "assassination" and brought it all to light in public so people could see why they'd ever capture Tyrion.

But noooooooo Cat decided to take it upon herself to exact her own vengeance. She's not concerned with vengeance? If she wasn't she wouldn't have captured Tyrion. By Capturing Tyrion she causes Jamie to retaliate out of anger and attack Ned in the streets which causes the Lannisters to start hating the Starks openly so when Ned does make his "heeeey not your son" move it makes him look even worse cause they have this recent beef with them. So when they get ned to "confess" that he's a traitor he looks EVEN worse with everything else tacked on. And while they shouldn't have beheaded him because he was a war asset, he didn't have the best case behind him for them not to. Joff is a little prick, there is no denying that.

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Cat is the most idiotic annoying smurfer in the books. This one woman caused a war, got ppl she loved killed and has the emotional maturity of a 13 year old One Direction fan.

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Which war did she cause?

There is no change in hell that Cersei wouldn't have arrested/killed Ned after hearing he knew about the incest, which is what caused Robb to go to war. Stannis and Renly joined in because they heard about the incest. None of that has to do with Catelyn taking Tyrion into custody. If she hadn't taken Tyrion into custody, the war still would have happened in the same way. The only difference is that Jaime wouldn't have attacked Ned in the streets, which was a stupid move on Jaime's part--blaming Catelyn for something Jaime did is messed up.

I forgot about Sansa being the one to tell Cersei that Ned was planning on GTFOing. She's a naive little girl who learned to shut the smurf up pretty quickly after that, though, so I'm not gonna call her stupid for it.

Catelyn arresting Tyrion pissed the Lannisters off, but not as much as Ned threatening to out them for the incest. I really have no idea why people are so hellbent on blaming Catelyn for something she had nothing to do with. I know Ned is a beloved character, but the war started because he played the game poorly, and because Joffrey is a trout.

As someone who hasn't read the books, the scene where Cat takes Tyrion into custody in the show did NOT play out like a stupid move. That's not how the scene read and I'm pretty sure it wasn't the intention to even try and portray that moment as being stupid.

It came across like a move of desperation and circumstances. It's not her fault that she didn't know that Tyrion is the only sane person in his family. There she is, hiding about and Tyrion (as delightful as he is to the audience) comes strutting about in his rather pompous manner and this is the guy she believes to be an attempted child murderer. Any person without the benefit of being an omniscient viewer might have reacted the same way she did. On the flip side, I can't think of anyone who would have behaved as stupidly as Ned did.

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I really have no idea why people are so hellbent on blaming Catelyn for something she had nothing to do with.

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My theory is that it's cause Cat doesn't have a dick and many of the other stupid stupid characters do and that somehow makes them less stupid than Cat.

It's not a terrible theory. Sansa, Dany, and Cat always get trashed as being stupid, while pretty much everyone else seems to get a pass. I tend to believe it's just because Catelyn taking Tyrion into custody was when trout started to hit the fan, and because no one wants to think poorly of their beloved Ned. But, you're right, it really bugs me that those three ladies are trout all over all the time, when they're no better or worse than any other character.

I only read about Game of Thrones on two sites, here and on Ohnotheydidnt. Here, Cat gets tit on all the time. On ONTD, among the hundreds of comments I've seen, only a handful of people have ever mentioned disliking her in the show or in the books and most people seem to like her very much. ONTD's primarily made up of female posters, like 90% female. I cringe to think of what the hyper misogynistic Reddit people might think of Cat. Based on the show alone, I've liked Cat very much. I thought most of her decisions and actions seem the most normal out of the whole lot of them. Maybe that doesn't mean a ton since so many of the characters are off on one extreme or the other. But still, she makes sense to me. The only thing I don't like about her is her whole honor thing, which is the same thing that annoyed me about Ned and now Rob. Get off your high horses and do some real dirty work. Or you will all LOSE.

Speaking of dumbass decisions, how about Rob's great idea to send Mr. Not-Quite-Right-in-the-Head Greyjoy back to his family. Real smart plan that was.

Also, I wonder if we'll ever get any full frontal of the main male cast. Any chance Jaime gets buck naked in the books? The way things are going, it seems super unlikely. Even Rome and True Blood give us more male eyecandy than this show, it's totally a let down.

The Game of Thrones subreddit tends not to be too bad. Yeah, Cat and Sansa and Dany get a lot of hate, but there's also a lot of people that defend them. Probably because most of the people that bother to subscribe to that subreddit cherish the books so hard that they're going to have a long think before declaring a character that their beloved GRRM has written as stupid. I see anti-Cat/Sansa/Dany posts often, but when I defend them I get lots of upvotes and no one being a dick to me, which is rare for Reddit. If I were to defend them in, say r/funny or one of the general subreddits, there's a lot more dickery there.

I also have my fingers crossed for some Jaime nudity. If Nikolaj Coster-Waldau was my twin I would be all about incest.

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Originally Posted by Miriel

Also, I wonder if we'll ever get any full frontal of the main male cast. Any chance Jaime gets buck naked in the books? The way things are going, it seems super unlikely. Even Rome and True Blood give us more male eyecandy than this show, it's totally a let down.

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Well, Tyrion spreads his legs at one point in the books to reveal something "crooked, red and veiny", I think was the description. Sooo... there's that.

Excuse me, ladies. I do not just hate Cat or dany or sansa because they are female. That's a very broad statement to make. I also hate Jon, Robb, Theon (of course) and a little bit of dislike for Bran but he's a child so I'll give him that. In fact, I think most the characters make ridiculously stupid moves but just because they all make them doesn't mean that one character is abdicated of their stupid moves as well. You're defending one stupid move by throwing out more stupid moves, claiming that people are pointing out hers because she's a female and they have hardons for guys (paraphrasing, of course). Just because others make stupid moves, doesn't mean that hers are any less stupid. Stupid. (had to say it one more time)

The way they handled Jaime's release in the show was less of an impact and made less sense than her grief stricken actions in the book. AKA they made it more of a stupid move than it already was. Which is where this recent discussion came from anyway.

I will admit I like her more in the show than the books and even then I've only read the first three books so far so I'm not all knowing of the series (YET working on it).

I do agree though, there needs to be more fan service to the ladies. The guys get like 4 boobs per episode. We get shirtless Gendry every now and then. WHICH I AM PERFECTLY FINE WITH.

I can't speak for Miriel, but I wasn't referring to you specifically--it just seems, in general, like people hate those three but forgive all the dumb things all the male characters do. Every character doing stupid things is what makes them realistic and the series unpredictable--the flawed decisions and the consequences that follow are what make the series good.

I'm glad that we all agree about more fan service for the ladies, at least.

Based on the information Cat had at the time, Tyrion was the one responsible for Bran's attempted murder. If she is presented with a situation where she can arrest her son's assailant then it makes sense she would take it. It's only later proven that it was a foolish move.

Who was the one who sent that assassin after Bran? Amanda said in an earlier post that it was spoiler?Joffrey but that doesn't make sense because (SPOILER)he was 12 at the time and also probably wasn't aware of his parents' incest and/or why Bran was being targeted. It bugs me that this was never fully resolved. FYI I did read Game of Thrones and I'm halfway through Clash of Kings and it hasn't been addressed fully by that point.

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Originally Posted by Rantz Rantz Revolution

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Originally Posted by Miriel

Also, I wonder if we'll ever get any full frontal of the main male cast. Any chance Jaime gets buck naked in the books? The way things are going, it seems super unlikely. Even Rome and True Blood give us more male eyecandy than this show, it's totally a let down.

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Well, Tyrion spreads his legs at one point in the books to reveal something "crooked, red and veiny", I think was the description. Sooo... there's that.

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It comes out of a mound of blonde curls, as well.

Also, shirtless Gendry makes me happy.

As for the assassin sent after Bran (SPOILER)it does say in the book that Joffrey was the one who sent him after Bran. There's so much information coming at you, so I can't 100% remember, but...I think it was said that he already knew he was an incest baby? Or something. Hell, I don't know. But after they reveal it was Joffrey, it gets stated many times in the Jaime/Cersei chapters.

Yes, arresting Tyrion was smurfing stupid. Why? Well, why the smurf did she arrest him? What evidence did she have that Tyrion killed him? Littlefinger - a man who specifically says he can and should not be trusted - tells her that it is Tyrion's dagger. That is it. Littlefinger, aka the creepy guy who has tried to bone her for her entire life. Never mind that there is no motive whatsoever for Tyrion wanting a young boy killed, never mind that he would be incredibly stupid to use a dagger that is publically known to be his, nope, it's him! Get him! That is what is smurfing stupid.

Also the war was already in motion before Ned was killed. The Lannisters wanted to capture Ned in revenge, so they sent the Mountain to go and rape the riverlands without a banner, leaving dead fish everywhere as a message. The idea was for Noble Ned, Hand of the King, to go and try to sort the Mountain out and get captured and traded for Tyrion. But then Jaime crippled Ned like an idiot and Ned couldn't go, so he sent Beric Dondarrion instead. So yeah, capturing Tyrion started a war.

also sexism? maybe you are the sexists, defending cat and panning ned! Works both ways, you disgusting smurfing female supremacists gtfo my forum!!!! Seriously now, sounds to me like the people with gender equality issues are the ones who think you have to balance out criticising a female character by having to criticise a male one at the same time. FINE, NED STARK IS ALSO DUMB, PROBABLY DUMBER THAN CAT ACTUALLY. AM I FREE TO GO SEXISM POLICE?

Im pretty sure it wasn't Jaime who sent the catspaw to finish Bran off. I won't say who it was though.

Every action Cat does is self serving. She ignores the bigger picture, doesnt think rationally & is a moron. I understand people defending Dany, I even understand the defence of Sansa, she's a child for smurf sake, but Cat? There is no defence. From her treatment of Jon, to the idiotic belief that someone would hand a catspaw their own knife to secretly kill someone, then arrest that person. Then to other idiotic things i dont want to say as i'm not sure what has and what as not transpired on HBO. She has, time & again, proved herself to be the biggest idiot in the book. Bearing in mind these books also contain patchface & Moonboy.


@Bunny, I suppose saying she CAUSED a war might be harsh but it certainly ignited tit when she took Tyrion.

Plenty of peoples stupidities annoy me in the books. From Dany to Stannis, to Davos to Theon etc even to everyones favorite Tyrion. They've all done tit that's made me say; 'You smurfing idiot'. However not in every chapter....with Jon, Cat & Cersei that happens....EVERY chapter.

If you want to make this an US Vs Them feminist issue knock yourself out.


Also. Tyrion is a paedophile. Discuss

How are the action of Cat any more self-serving than anyone else?

Also, if my husband boned another woman and brought home that kid to live in our home, I would divorce the dumbass husband. But if that weren't an option as it seemingly wasn't an option for Cat, I would absolutely hate that child. It's not the nicest reaction and maybe someone with more forgiveness wouldn't have taken out their hurt on an innocent kid, but it's an understandable reaction. Someone who ended up being nice to the kid would be an absolutely remarkable and singular person. Cat reacted the same way most women in the same circumstance might have reacted.

Female characters in general get much more criticism than their male counterparts. It's always been like this. Look at any show. Look at the idiotic stuff Dr. House does while still maintaining his likability, versus the idiotic stuff some of his female coworkers have done which have caused the fandom to rain down vitriol on those characters. I'm not immune from it either. Jack was just as dumb as Kate on Lost, but people still hated Kate more (myself included).

Male characters have a longer leash to be stupid and get away with it than female characters.

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Originally Posted by Psychotic

Yes, arresting Tyrion was smurfing stupid. Why? Well, why the smurf did she arrest him? What evidence did she have that Tyrion killed him? Littlefinger - a man who specifically says he can and should not be trusted - tells her that it is Tyrion's dagger. That is it. Littlefinger, aka the creepy guy who has tried to bone her for her entire life. Never mind that there is no motive whatsoever for Tyrion wanting a young boy killed, never mind that he would be incredibly stupid to use a dagger that is publically known to be his, nope, it's him! Get him! That is what is smurfing stupid.

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Littlefinger never told Cat not to trust him, he told that to Ned. To Cat, it seemed like he presented a figure of trust and friendship. And Tyrion is a Lannister, and might have sent an assassin just to protect the family name. Who knows with that smurfed up family. I mean, it wasn't even made clear to the audience who ACTUALLY ordered the hit, so Cat making an impulsive decision at that moment wasn't any more stupid than anything anyone else has done. I think her decision was not thought out. But I think she thought she was in between a rock and a hard place. How else should that scene have played out? "Er... yeah, can you not tell anyone you saw me here? I'm just gonna leave now..."

Tensions are high in here with people thinking cat is not stupid so here have a Gendry Gif

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3...hz9go2_250.gif

You know what, I don't think that was enough.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3...hz9go5_250.gif

He looks so hurt when she said that :( Like she doesn't need gendry. EVERYONE NEEDS GENDRY

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m4...s0hxo1_250.gif

Omg Chris from Skins, I will always love you.

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I cringe to think of what the hyper misogynistic Reddit people might think of Cat.

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This requires explaination. I have very rarely saw a post that came even close to something that could be considered hyper misogynistic, or even slightly misogynistic. Maybe if you go to r/beatingwomen or some bulltrout reddit like that, but that is a relatively small population of Reddit and you have to expect misogyny from people like that. But whatever, small potatoes.


The problem with Catelyn's decisions are that they are personal and inclusive, not necessarily that they are dumb. She is one of the few major characters, and there are others, that make choices and decisions that directly or indirectly effect a large portion of the characters. Letting Jaime go in hopes of getting her children back (when she has no reason to believe this will actually work because the "Lannister's always pay their debts" line is bulltrout: Lannister's always pay their debts when it behooves them to pay their debts). Capturing Tyrion with as little information as she did, while not necessarily a problem in and of itself, is another one of these. The biggest problem with her capture of Tyrion is that she refused to listen to him when he provided logical information to her that disputed what she already believed. Her mind was so made up that Tyrion tried to kill Bran that she refused to listen to anyone saying otherwise. Her decisions, while they did not directly cause the war, had more influence over the dominoes that fell than most other characters did.


Robb's decision to send Theon back to his family was made out of trust and familial love for the boy he considered his best friend and someone he had known since he was a little boy. He grew up with this guy and did not think he would have betrayed him. In hindsight, yeah he probably regrets the decision but he did not know that Theon would betray him at the time because he had no information to the contrary. A stupid decision? Completely, but he didn't have the information that the audience had so you can't really blame him for trusting someone he loved.


Sansa is a stupid girl but eventually grows into a semi-intelligent woman who understands what her actions have done and regrets them. If you dispute this, you are clearly not reading the same books as everyone else. She even states herself that she does not care at all about politics, she just wants to live in a fairy tale world with her lovely prince. Even though that prince has proven, time in again, to be a sadistic little :bou::bou::bou::bou:. She grows out of this after Ned is put to death and starts to realize that fairy tales aren't exactly real and that Joffrey is very much not Prince Charming. I go to several forums that are dedicated to the series and everyone's opinions on Sansa are about the same: an idiot to begin with, but she eventually gets wise to the world.


Dany, like Cat, refuses to listen to reasonable suggestions around her. She also does not understand how politics work. This is mostly a reflection on how she grew up. She was, esssentially, raised on the run by an idiot who thought his name meant everything. She grew up thinking that her Targaryen blood meant she was above everyone else and that people would love her simply because of who she was. Other, much wiser people, understand that this may not be the case and so suggest she do things differently. She rebukes them because she believes with all her being that she only needs to show up and say "Sup, Aegon was my daddy." and people will line up in droves to be members of her ever-increasing army of dragony goodness. She eventually grows out of this and starts to see the logic behind her actions, although she is still a stubborn little girl from time to time. Her current story, in the show and in the books, is necessararily boring because it impacts her eventual growth that much more.


Ned was not stupid. He was honorable. There is a difference and it is pretty significant. He made stupid decisions because he made the mistake of everyone being just as honorable as he was. He thought that everyone wanted what was good for the kingdom, even if it wasn't necessarily good for specific people. He died because he refused to play the game of politics that everyone else was playing. Yea, he was a bit dumb, but only so far as he refused to see reason.


Catelyn's actions are, from a motherly point of view, very understandable and completley reasonable. However, that does not mean they are smart. The biggest problem with Catelyn isn't that she is making stupid decisions, it's that she refuses to see why the decisions are stupid. LIke I said, she has absolutely NO reason to believe that the Lannister's would free Sansa and Arya (since she doesn't know Arya isn't in King's Landing). As long as Robb has Jaime as his captive, his sisters are completely safe. The Lannister's would absolutely not harm Sansa and Arya if they knew that harm would come to their favored son. Catelyn not only ruins this by letting him go, but she refuses to understand why letting him go was such a bad decision. She isn't dumb because she makes stupid decisions because, yes, all of the characters make stupid decisions. What sets her apart from most of the cast is that she refuses to acknowledge why her decisions might be stupid.

Also calling everything sexist or misogynistic is dumb. Just because dudes don't get naked on the screen does not mean the creators of the show are blatantly sexist. It just means that dudes aren't getting naked on the screen as much.

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This requires explaination. I have very rarely saw a post that came even close to something that could be considered hyper misogynistic, or even slightly misogynistic. Maybe if you go to r/beatingwomen or some bulltit reddit like that, but that is a relatively small population of Reddit and you have to expect misogyny from people like that. But whatever, small potatoes.

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One of the first threads I explored while checking out Reddit a few weeks ago was about ex-girlfriends/boyfriends and in it, there was a bunch of dudes complaining about men's rights. Like, seriously. Men don't have enough rights. I talked to a few people who frequent reddit (since I don't) and they said this is a thing. People there actually bitch about men's rights like it's a real issue. Creeped. Me. Out.

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Also calling everything sexist or misogynistic is dumb. Just because dudes don't get naked on the screen does not mean the creators of the show are blatantly sexist. It just means that dudes aren't getting naked on the screen as much.

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And it tires me out all the time that people so fiercely refuse to acknowledge how prevalent sexism is. Everyone is sexist to a degree (and also racist). Myself included. Is it really that hard to see in oneself? How much you let it influence you obviously depends on the person and it's not like I said that's the ONLY reason people might like or dislike characters.

Just that in my theory, female characters in hundreds of tv shows or movies generally are given much less latitude for behaving badly before they lose popularity versus male characters. And the disproportionate amount of dislike for Cat seems at least in part, due to the fact that it's a woman making poor choices versus a man. For all I know, people dislike her equally as much as anyone else, but it doesn't get talked about as much now does it?

And yeah, there are things about Game of Thrones that's sexist, just like in pretty much every show that has ever existed. And in every human mind that's ever existed. There is a gratuitous amount of female nudity in this show. Like, more than most HBO shows and that's saying something. And very little male nudity. And again, this is true for a LOT of media. Females get naked, men don't. Look at fashion magazines, movies, music videos, etc. Men in clothes, females semi-nude. Terry Richardson pretty much ONLY shoots photos where the girl is partially dressed and the guy is fully clothed. That's supposed to just be how things are? As if it's totally random? Nah.

It also seems silly for a girl to be COMPLETELY naked while the guy only has a shirt off in a sex scene. That's not how it would go down in real life. Also, the actor has been naked in other stuff before, so it's not like he has a problem with it. Somewhere, someone made the decision to have a naked girl jump on a guy with half is clothes still in tact. They might have made that decision for 10 different reasons, but at least one of the factors (in my opinion) had to have been that they just don't see the need for male nudity as much as female.

And I don't know how it is in the books, but in the show, it seemed to me that Cat realized what a horrid mistake it was to bring Tyrion to her sister. Maybe she didn't regret the arrest itself, but it sure seemed like she regretted bringing him to nutso sister lady. And she didn't seem all that pompous and unrepenting in her scene with Rob. She seemed... sad.

I have no idea how it is in the books, although I've heard more than one person say that Cat is one of their favorite characters in the book, but she could be absolutely TERRIBLE. But an episode airs, and then people here bitch about Cat and I'm like, what? What did she do that was so much worse than anyone else? She seems to me like one of the less offensive people on the show.

I for one, am against the appalling lack of Robb's penis in this show.


SEXISM!

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Originally Posted by Miriel

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This requires explaination. I have very rarely saw a post that came even close to something that could be considered hyper misogynistic, or even slightly misogynistic. Maybe if you go to r/beatingwomen or some bulltit reddit like that, but that is a relatively small population of Reddit and you have to expect misogyny from people like that. But whatever, small potatoes.

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One of the first threads I explored while checking out Reddit a few weeks ago was about ex-girlfriends/boyfriends and in it, there was a bunch of dudes complaining about men's rights. Like, seriously. Men don't have enough rights. I talked to a few people who frequent reddit (since I don't) and they said this is a thing. People there actually bitch about men's rights like it's a real issue. Creeped. Me. Out.

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This right here? Sexism. Just because the issue of men's rights isn't as prevalent of a problem as women's rights does not mean that it is not an issue. There are plenty of things that men get screwed on simply for being men and being "less fit" than a woman is. Yes, women have it tougher. I am not arguing that, but saying that men have no right to complain about their perceived lack of rights in certain areas is ludicious.

Also calling the whole of Reddit hyper misogynistic based on, by your own admission, one or two threads is ignorant. I frequent Reddit and I know a lot of other people that do the same and very rarely do any of us run into blatant sexism.

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Also calling everything sexist or misogynistic is dumb. Just because dudes don't get naked on the screen does not mean the creators of the show are blatantly sexist. It just means that dudes aren't getting naked on the screen as much.

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And it tires me out all the time that people so fiercely refuse to acknowledge how prevalent sexism is. Everyone is sexist to a degree (and also racist). Myself included. Is it really that hard to see in oneself? How much you let it influence you obviously depends on the person and it's not like I said that's the ONLY reason people might like or dislike characters.[/quote]

I do not refuse to acknowledge that sexist is extremely prevalent. I refuse to acknowledge people, like yourself, who throw the term sexism out left and right without an clear grasp of what the problem with it is. The lack of male nudity in Game of Thrones? Not sexist. The target audience of Game of Thrones, like most other mainstream television shows, is 18-35 year old men. Appealing to your core audience is not sexism, it's business. Hatred of Catelyn? Not sexist. People do not hate Catelyn because she lacks a dick (although some certainly do, but I would wager that the number is relatively small). People hate Catelyn because of the reasons I outlined in my previous post, as well as other reasons. Disliking a character who happens to be female is not sexist unless you hate that person solely for being a woman.

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And yeah, there are things about Game of Thrones that's sexist, just like in pretty much every show that has ever existed. And in every human mind that's ever existed. There is a gratuitous amount of female nudity in this show. Like, more than most HBO shows and that's saying something. And very little male nudity. And again, this is true for a LOT of media. Females get naked, men don't. Look at fashion magazines, movies, music videos, etc. Men in clothes, females semi-nude. Terry Richardson pretty much ONLY shoots photos where the girl is partially dressed and the guy is fully clothed. That's supposed to just be how things are? As if it's totally random? Nah.

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Why are we looking at fashion magazines, music videos, and any other form of media? This is a thread about Game of Thrones specifically and a discussion about perceived sexism in Game of Thrones. Anything else is largely irrelevant. If you want to address the problems of sexism in other media you can, but it has no real bearing on the current conversation at all. And regardless of that fact, the majority of television shows that feature women half-naked or fully naked are those shows that are aimed, again, at an audience mostly comprised of 18-35 year old men. A large portion of television viewers are of this age group. Shows, movies, etc that are aimed directly at female groups do not feature half-naked or fully-naked women. They feature buff men without shirts because that is what works. Are we to pretend that this is not sexist based on your own preceived criticism? That argument, much like yours, is half-hearted and stupid but the two go hand-in-hand.

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And I don't know how it is in the books, but in the show, it seemed to me that Cat realized what a horrid mistake it was to bring Tyrion to her sister. Maybe she didn't regret the arrest itself, but it sure seemed like she regretted bringing him to nutso sister lady. And she didn't seem all that pompous and unrepenting in her scene with Rob. She seemed... sad.

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The only reason she showed regret, at least from my understanding, is because her sister wasn't doing exactly what she wanted her to do. Lysa gave Tyrion an out and Catelyn did not want him to have one. He wanted him to be held responsible for crimes that Catelyn thought he committed even though she did not have any realistic proof that he did them.

I'm not saying that sexism in media is a non-issue and should be ignored, by the way. It is a massive issue and should be addressed to the best of our abilities. But calling everything sexist simply because it does not agree with your world view while completely dismissing other types of sexism that exist for the same reasons? That's not the way to get rid of the bulk of sexism.

You must have an incredibly narrow definition of what sexism is. I've never seen anything wrong with calling out sexism and racism, even though people get all uppity about it. It's a reality. Deal with it. Lots of things are sexist. They won't hurt your livelihood or otherwise ruin your day, but it's still sexist.

Men bitching about how men have it so hard in this world is like Christians bitching about being persecuted. It just makes my eyes roll. Oh boo hoo, you have it so hard.

I bring up the other examples because it's such a ridiculous notion that media in all it's forms has plenty of instances of sexism and yet game of thrones is immune? As if.

Yeah there's sexism, I still watch and for the most part enjoy the show.

Admitting that there's sexism doesn't somehow invalidate the whole thing. Gratuitous female nudity in the presence of clothed men IS a depiction of women with sexist overtones. It's unimaginable to me that someone can't see that.

EDIT: I just want to add that you can dislike Cat all you want, and you obviously have your own reasons for having that dislike. It's not like anyone implied that you can't dislike a female character for any reason other than femaleness.

Just that to me, the dislike of Cat in this thread has always seemed excessive to what we've seen on the show. And has repeatedly been brought up. I can only speculate on the reason why, that speculation being what I keep repeating myself. It's much easier for audiences to dislike female characters than male characters and this has always been true.

Let's break this down.

I somewhat agree with Miriel and Del's implication that the actual arrest itself was not unforgivably stupid. Stupid, yes, but given Cat's fears, a momentary stupid overreaction is not unsympathetic (of course, such a rationalization is inconsistent with Cat stubbornly sticking to her decision for days/weeks afterward). What is so mind-bogglingly stupid about the decision was that she was convinced of Tyrion's guilt in the first place. This is baseless (and I recognize that the real blame is on Martin). Her only evidence is the fact that Tyrion possessed the knife at some point in the past (and based on Cat's trust of Littlefinger, I will accept this as a reasonable belief). And it wasn't Tyrion's prized knife that he carried around with him everywhere, but a knife that was seen with him only when he had just won it on a bet. That is it. There's no remotely reasonable way to twist that into serious evidence of Tyrion's guilt. Because Cat held this absolute conviction for weeks, despite all the contrary evidence (Tyrion's own arguments and the fact that Tyrion saved her life on the trip to his "trial"), her actions were hopelessly stupid.

Not only was the belief stupid, but thoughtlessly sticking with the arrest and keeping Tyrion was additionally stupid, as her own husband and daughters were in King's Landing. What did she think would be the response? There's no evidence that she even considered this problem.

Lastly, her release of Jaime Lannister. Again, overwhelmingly stupid. Not because she is justifiably terrified for her daughters' safety, but because of her absolutely deluded conviction that telling Brienne to take him to King's Landing alone (or with another person, as in the books) would accomplish anything at all for her daughters. She was not negotiating a transfer of prisoners, but simply giving away a very importantly political and military prisoner on the hope and prayer that the Lannisters will take kindly upon this gesture and stupidly release their own very important political prisoners (accepting the belief that Arya is still in King's Landing as reasonable).

On the subject of Sansa, she was an infuriating brat in the first book/season, but she was like 12 and indoctrinated with the message that she needs to be a good, obedient little princess. Not every little girl can be as badass as Arya. Sansa also becomes a very sympathetic character immediately upon having to deal with Joffrey.

I don't see how Ned Stark got even the slightest pass. There's a smurfing Stupid Ned Stark meme, for crying out loud. I do think the above two decisions of Cat's were more absurdly irrational than just about anything Ned did, but Ned was clearly so puffed up on his own honor that he was apparently incapable of even contemplating that people can be bad. His level of oblivious delusion did make him fitting match for Catelyn.

Ned Stark was dumb as rocks, but I still love him as a character. Joffrey is an evil little prick, but again, I think he's a great character. The actor is hilariously great in the role.

The point with Cat is that she makes dumb decisions like anyone else and people here seem to just loathe her character. Shlup and I were just pondering why that might be the case. If Ned Stark had been the one who had done the same things Cat did, I think people would still like him as a character. Oh that Ned! Bless his dumb little heart. Right?

But Cat? Oh no, she's "most idiotic annoying smurfer". Yeah.

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You must have an incredibly narrow definition of what sexism is. I've never seen anything wrong with calling out sexism and racism, even though people get all uppity about it. It's a reality. Deal with it. Lots of things are sexist. They won't hurt your livelihood or otherwise ruin your day, but it's still sexist.

Men bitching about how men have it so hard in this world is like Christians bitching about being persecuted. It just makes my eyes roll. Oh boo hoo, you have it so hard.

I bring up the other examples because it's such a ridiculous notion that media in all it's forms has plenty of instances of sexism and yet game of thrones is immune? As if.

Yeah there's sexism, I still watch and for the most part enjoy the show.

Admitting that there's sexism doesn't somehow invalidate the whole thing. Gratuitous female nudity in the presence of clothed men IS a depiction of women with sexist overtones. It's unimaginable to me that someone can't see that.

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Then please, define sexism for me. Because, according to what you have posted in this thread previously, women are the only ones that can justifiably be victims of sexism. Your posts indicate this and, I am sure based on this, your actual thought process is based on this. I do not have a problem with calling out sexism, racism, or any other type of racism. My issue lies with calling ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING that you do not agree with, or that seems slightly skewed in one direction, sexist or racist. You stated that the lack of male nudity in this show is sexism. How is that sexist? It's HBO addressing their core demographic.


Men bitching about how hard they have it in this world is nothing like Christians bitching about being persecuted and to dismiss it as such is a gross oversight on your part. This is one of the problems I have with sexism, and by extension, some versions of feminism. Men can be victims of sexism just like women can and not addressing this problem is yet another form of sexism. Just because women might have it more difficult in some ways does not mean that they have the market on being victims of sexist behavior. Give me a smurfing break.

I never said Game of Thrones is immune to sexism. I simply stated that what people are calling sexism isn't sexist, or that you aren't providing enough reasons as to WHY it is sexist. Again, a lack of male nudity in comparison to female nudity is not sexist in and of itself. I'm sorry if you disagree with that because I do not understand how you can view it that way.

If you accuse of me having an incredibly narrow definition of what sexism is, I'm going to go ahead and say that you have too broad of a definition of sexism, or have an equally as narrow defintion that ignores several instances of sexist behavior. Regardless, I don't think this conversation is going to get anywhere and so I'm going to stop after this post and get back to talking about my likes and dislikes of Game of Thrones. Feel free to continue.

You can google sexual objectification and do your own research on sexism. There's actually been quite a bit written about the sexual objectification of women on Game of Thrones. A quick google search should yield plenty of results.

And even though I stand by my comments that the naked women, clothed men syndrome is sexist, I'm pretty sure me and ahem, "Tifa's Boobs" were shouting sexism mostly because we just want to see peen.

I'll just say that some of us in this thread are obviously equal opportunity objectifier and if you're not, then screw you.

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Originally Posted by Miriel

You can google sexual objectification and do your own research on sexism. There's actually been quite a bit written about the sexual objectification of women on Game of Thrones. A quick google search should yield plenty of results.

And even though I stand by my comments that the naked women, clothed men syndrome is sexist, I'm pretty sure me and ahem, "Tifa's Boobs" were shouting sexism mostly because we just want to see peen.

I'll just say that some of us in this thread are obviously equal opportunity objectifier and if you're not, then screw you.

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I'm equal opportunist where Robb's peep is concerned.

These posts are starting to get way too long for me to focus on right now, but I wanted to put it out there that I am always really hesitant to play the sexism card... I do it very, very, very rarely... but after a couple of years of seeing "Cat/Dany/Sansa is such a stupid bitch! I love [insert male character here, whose decisions have been no better]!" and, like Miriel said, it's not that way in female-domianted fan communities... it becomes hard to ignore.

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Originally Posted by Bunny

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I cringe to think of what the hyper misogynistic Reddit people might think of Cat.

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This requires explaination. I have very rarely saw a post that came even close to something that could be considered hyper misogynistic, or even slightly misogynistic. Maybe if you go to r/beatingwomen or some bulltrout reddit like that, but that is a relatively small population of Reddit and you have to expect misogyny from people like that. But whatever, small potatoes.

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It is most definitively not a small population, or at least not small enough. I had to change my reddit username because my original username hinted that I was female and I was sick to death of being harassed. You don't have to go as far as /r/beatingwomen to get into crazy territory. /r/mensrights gets cringe-worthy pretty quickly.

I am addicted to the internet and I don't see much sexism on reddit. I mean I'll see the "dat ass!" comments on pictures or "make me a sammich" posts occasionally but I don't really think of those as sexism and more as jokes. Actuallythere is a whole thread going on right now that's on the hot page with like 1000 replies about how men objectify and treat women in their daily lives and the men of the thread going "oh snap What dicks" and being nothing but respectful. The /r/gameofthrones is pretty good though about any of it. In fact they remove things that objectify the actors. Because there was a totally hot set of gifs up of jaqen and then later I noticed they removed it because of that reason. Which was sad because I hadn't got to save them or anything and I was too lazy to look in my history.

Sansa gets the hate because she was a brat. And most everyone agrees she changes and grows.

Dany gets the hate because she was an entitled brat. And most everyone agrees she's changing and growing.

Cat gets the hate because well I don't want to have to explain again what many of us have explained already.

Claiming that disliking female characters because they are female is silly. I am female and I just dislike Cat because I dislike her. Making such a broad statement that everyone doesn't like them because they are female is, again, silly. Most every comment I have ever seen about people disliking Cat are for the same reasons I said earlier, that Bunny, Wes, Cuch all said. And it's not about the male characters. That's irrelevant that they may like one character and dislike another. Male or female. The fact is, people dislike her because of reasons we've detailed. If you don't agree well alright but it's no reason to put the sexism card into it.

It's a bit of a pet peeve of mine when people claim people dislike others because of their gender or claim that I personally dislike them because she's another female and as a girl, I hate other girls. No. I hate stupidity. I don't care what gender you are. You could be an android that has no gender, if you act stupid (you wouldn't cause come on ROBOT) i'm still going to dislike you. Tossing in the gender thing is unnecessary and usually just a way for people to try to give their point more support. Nothing about what any of us said about cat had anything to do with her gender. It all had something to do with her actions and reactions. She also just happens to be female.

So lets back away from that whole sexism nonsense in regards to dislike for Cat.

Yeah, Freya tells me all the time I'm super girly and I make her sick, but she still loves me.

Reddit is not dominated by misogynists. It's a huge, diverse community. There is enough of them, though, that a few will pop up everywhere you look, and it's very irritating. I agree that /r/gameofthrones really isn't bad in that regard.

It's definitely a pet peeve of mine when people play the sexism card, but that doesn't mean gender discrimination is never an issue. People are more forgiving of the faults of male characters than they are female characters. You're right, their choices don't have to do with them being female--peoples' inability to forgive their bad decisions while easily forgiving the bad decisions of other characters, though... seems to create a pattern.

I'm not going to push it, though, because I hate accusing people of sexism. And I, at least, am not accusing anyone individually of being sexist--it's just a general overtone, based on dozens and dozens of people declaring they hate the female characters (excluding Arya, who's the most masculine of the female characters), yet I almost never see anyone hate the male characters. Cat/Sansa/Dany/Cersei get called stupid bitches all the time. Yes, there are people that will defend them, but there's a definite noticeable pattern between which characters are forgiven for their bad decisions and which aren't, and I'm not going to deny that I see a pattern when that pattern keeps popping up over and over and over again. If it were just Cat, then maybe, but it's like every female character short of Arya!

Aaaanyway... I don't like the way this is going so... I forgive all of the characters for their decisions that didn't turn out well. There's no character I dislike, and I'm super duper excited for the next two episodes. Though what I'm really excited for is next season. Though I hear they're splitting the events from the next book into two seasons, which might mean it's season four that's going to have lots of my favorite things. Stupid ten episodes a year...

I've said a hundred times I hate Jon.

You seem to really think that any one example that doesn't fit into my very generalized observations invalidates my opinion. That's not how things work.

Why can't I hate Cat & Cersei without being labelled a sexist? You smurfing women are all twats.

You must hate one dude. I'll let you pick. Joffrey doesn't count.

I already did pick. Jon Snow annoys the sweet living hell out of me to the point where reading about the wall fills me with dread not knowing what moronic stubborn bulltit he'll pull next. (dance with dragons spoiler)(SPOILER)I mean who sends all his allies away & leaves himself surrounded by doubters who hate what you're doing? I'm glad he stabbed the smurf up. Anyway, why is Joffrey unacceptable? Cersei is equally abhorant and I listed her.

It's not our fault that the ratio of annoying smurfers written by George falls heavily on the side of the titted variety of human. Take that up with Mr Martin.

Keep in mind that I haven't watched any of the second series yet and probably will not until it's completed, but I'm just wondering if anyone arguing that the reason people are hating on Sansa, Cat etc etc is because of sexism are considering the fact that the TV show is based on a 16 year old series of 5 or 6 books depending on where you live, and that the show itself has barely scratched the surface of what has happened in the story so far. As well as the fact that it's obviously limited in the depth it can go by the nature of television in comparison to books. I have no doubt that there are people in the community who are hatin' simply because the characters are women, there are always going to be some people that look at this kind of thing with a sexist nature.

But I'm also aware of the fact that there are probably a lot of people out there who have had many, many years with the story/characters and have way more knowledge of what the characters do in the future than has been shown in the TV series already and there's no way that's not going to influence people's attitudes to the characters. For me, my least favourite character in the series is Dany. It's not because she is a woman, it's because she is an utterly useless moron. To anyone who hasn't read the books that kind of statement may seem fairly harsh, to those who have, even if they like Dany or not they at least know enough to know where I'm coming from and am not just firing off vitriol because she's a woman.

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Originally Posted by Shlup

based on dozens and dozens of people declaring they hate the female characters (excluding Arya, who's the most masculine of the female characters)

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Well I can't speak for the masses but imho Cersei, Sansa and Dany are all utterly dire. Cersei is vile, and has always been written that way by Martin. Any hatred flung her way is more than deserved imho :colbert: Dany i'm not going to go into again, she is just the worst person in the whole story and I can't go into it without spoiling a lot of stuff. Sansa is just dumb. She is. She is dumb. Cat I don't have any issues with near as much as those three but she certainly has done some daft things.

That being said, and again bare in mind I haven't seen the second series yet so not sure who all else is involved yet but Cersei, Sansa, Dany, Cat and Arya are not the only female characters in the story. Breine of Tarth, Melisandre, Ygritte, Asha, Margaery Tyrell and so on. AFAIK most people love these characters. Freed is more into the community than I am so I guess he'd know better, but I've certainly never heard anything about them being tit on the way Cersei and the rest do, and I'm pretty sure that's because they aren't assholes and smurfups like the other ones are.

My view is that anybody who thinks my opinion that cat is stupid is gender motivated is actually dumber than cat (AND THAT IS P smurfING DUMB) :smug:

Also 100% agreed with Dan. Those are some pretty god damn smart women right there too. I don't know if we're going to see her in the TV show, but if and when we do, Margaery's grandmother is one of the most intelligent people in the entire book series imho.

Some of you just suck at reading comprehension.

Did anyone say that the reason, the only reason, or even the primary reason why people dislike a specific character is because of sex?

NO.

We said that female characters seem to get hate disproportionate to their actions than their male counterparts, despite a tremendous amount of stupidity all around. Like I said, Ned is very very dumb, but we all still like him. This could be cause he's also Boromir and Boromir is awwwesome. But still. Blond dude from the first season was evil but still a great character. That's the point. You might hate Cat, but I don't see many people here arguing that she's still a neat character. Whereas in the other female community I visit, people really really like her as a character, even if she makes dumb decisions. It's not that Cat doesn't have qualities that legitimately make her unlikable to some people, it's that those characteristics that make her unlikable seem more amplified and ranted about than a male character with lots of unlikable characteristics. Sure you can give reason after reason why you hate a character, but I think you would be incredibly mistaken if you think that gender doesn't play at least a small role in your perception. I mean hell, I know for a FACT that it influences me.

All things equal, women will be given less room to act like a smurfing idiot and still be liked, rather than a guy.

If you honestly believe that a male character who did the exact same things that Cat did would have garnered the exact same number of people disliking the character and voicing their dislike, then I think you're absurdly lacking in self-awareness. Like, really? You REALLY don't think that unlikable female characters are bitched about WAY more than male characters?

Sheesh, this is all so beside the point. You can all keep bitching about how much you hate Cat and how sexist overtones never ever ever enter into your perceptions, EVEERRRR. I DON'T CARE.

Aside from the super slow pacing of the episodes, I am for the most part enjoying the season. I think Varys is my fav.

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Originally Posted by Miriel

You REALLY don't think that unlikable female characters are bitched about WAY more than male characters?

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two words: theon greyjoy

imho miriel your views have been more sexist than anyone else in this thread.

Theon's a villain. You're not supposed to like him.

are you supposed to like king robert?

this is important.

thrad was way tl;dr even given that it's about pretty much my favourite fantasy series ever but Dan said I should poast so here goes. also i'm suffering from pretty severe depression and about to go on vacation so i might not respond any further or even keep up with responses. you have been warned.

• significant portions of reddit are in fact hideously sexist. anyone who denies this at this point apparently hasnt read them very closely
• it is possible to dislike more female characters in this series without being sexist even if male characters do the same things. the characterisation in this series is so utterly complex that it is pretty much impossible to quantify objective criteria for rating them, mostly because of how many characters there are and how many things most of the main ones do. the characterisation in this series is so complex that it's pretty much impossible to quantify objective reasons two characters should be comparable, because "other things being equal" never happens in this series. that is, there are so many differences between characters that there is no way to see one character as a distaff counterpart of another
• objectively speaking most of the characters in this series are compelling and a lot of people's reasons given for disliking cat/dany/theon/whatever as characters fall flat on their faces. i can understand disliking them as people which is fine. however, the characterisation tends to be complex and realistic and there are very few characters who seem to be poorly drawn. most of the characters people constantly bitch about no longer bother me much; even characters i hate as people like roose and cersei still come across as compelling characters. there are only a few characters like gregor clegane that come across as one-dimensional, and even then there are one-dimensional villains in real life so it's not that big a deal
• what i did skim of this thread looked mostly like people on both sides of the issue talking past one another which is why it got so boring so quickly

there, my 2¢. adjusted for inflation it's probably like $3 but whatever. apologies if any of this wasn't clear, i'll try to clarify if so.

edit:

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Originally Posted by Shlup

Theon's a villain. You're not supposed to like him.

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adwd spoilerhe starts out a villain, but by the end of adwd he definitely isn't one and it's pretty clear you're not supposed to think he deserves the horrifying torture he receives even after his horrific actions in acok.

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Originally Posted by Miriel

Some of you just suck at reading comprehension.

Did anyone say that the reason, the only reason, or even the primary reason why people dislike a specific character is because of sex?

NO.

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My reading comprehension is just fine! I'll show you!

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My theory is that it's cause Cat doesn't have a dick and many of the other stupid stupid characters do and that somehow makes them less stupid than Cat.

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I cringe to think of what the hyper misogynistic Reddit people might think of Cat

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Female characters in general get much more criticism than their male counterparts.

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Male characters have a longer leash to be stupid and get away with it than female characters.

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Then finally you say

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How much you let it influence you obviously depends on the person and it's not like I said that's the ONLY reason people might like or dislike characters.

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But up until that point you were pretty much mainly saying it was a sexism thing if you look at those quotes. Then even after you say that you go into a tangent about sexism prevalent in media. Then proceed to continue that point in more posts. It was pretty much what you were arguing the past page or so in this thread. Even though people have said that it's her stupid decision you insist that it has something to do with sexism.

It's not all about gender and trying to make it about gender is just a padding it. Her actions were stupid. They were. This isn't about a male character. There isn't a male character who does what she does. This is about Cat and her stupid actions, trying to make it something other than that with the sexism train you can't seem to get off of is silly. The way Martin writes these characters is that they make ignorant decisions. I can't help it if that's how the character is written and that they happen to be female. Trying to put sexist overtones into it is ridiculous. I dislike people because I dislike them. It doesn't have to do with race or gender it has to with being a smurfwit. I can't say for others if it doesn't apply but for me at least it's just cause Cat is a smurfwit. Trying to speak for others saying that is their reasoning, that it does involve gender, is silly. Not everyone dislikes people cause of gender. Can't people just dislike someone because they dislike them? Apparently not. There HAS to be a sexist overtone. Has to.

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Originally Posted by Psychotic

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Originally Posted by Miriel

You REALLY don't think that unlikable female characters are bitched about WAY more than male characters?

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two words: theon greyjoy

imho miriel your views have been more sexist than anyone else in this thread.

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Dude, have you even READ this thread? Pretty much all the comments about Theon have been about how the show is doing a good job making you feel bad for him, or how the actor is doing a great job of being a convincingly great asshole. People LIKE him as a villain. Compare the comments of Theon in this thread to the comments about Cat. Seriously. How many people have said the same about Cat? "Wow! Cat did something horribly stupid, but she's doing a good job of showing how desperate she feels!" Yeah, no.

I hated King Robert from the beginning, but from briefly skimming over this thread, I'm the only one who really hated him, and when I posted that, you posted that he's fan-freakin-tastic. Even though he ordered a kill ON A PUPPY.

He is the worst. The worst! Although Ned Stark comes close for actually doing the killing. A PUPPY!!! But people in this thread describe Robert as being hilarious.

And Freya, you kinda proved my point exactly. Every single thing you quoted had to do with the LEVEL of dislike, not the existence of dislike. MORE, LESS, LONGER, DISPROPORTIONATE, AMOUNT, etc. These are words that signify a degree. So how can you quote these things and then say that I'm making it ALL about gender? I'm saying it's a part. I'm saying that I think Cat gets MORE grief than male characters who have done terrible things. Worse things in my opinion than Cat in the show.

I mean christ, Drogo RAPED a main character and he's still well liked. Jaimie pushes a kid to possible death and people still like him. Myself included. I like both characters, and many of the other horrible stupid or evil characters. But Cat gets crapped on, a lot more than those characters, with few people chiming in anything positive. Yeah, I'm the crazy one for suggesting that sex plays a PART in that. Cause there is not a single part of any of the rest of you who MIGHT be influenced by sex, which influences nearly everything. Uh huh.

Now you're moving the goalposts. Either Cat is a stupid character or a bad character. You can't have both :colbert:

ps: king robert could kill a thousand puppies and also turn into a giant bird and still be the best character the show has ever seen

pps: i hope giant bird-robert flaps near you for ruining this once great thread :doublecolbert:

Then you're entirely missing the point. It is not about gender. IT IS NOT ABOUT GENDER. It is about stupidity.

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Originally Posted by Psychotic

Now you're moving the goalposts. Either Cat is a stupid character or a bad character. You can't have both :colbert:

ps: king robert could kill a thousand puppies and also turn into a giant bird and still be the best character the show has ever seen

pps: i hope giant bird-robert flaps near you for ruining this once great thread :doublecolbert:

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What are you talking about? Cat can be stupid and still be a good character. Theon is evil AND stupid, but he's still a good character.

You really think someone has to like the actions of a character in order to like what they add to a show?

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Originally Posted by Freya

Then you're entirely missing the point. It is not about gender. IT IS NOT ABOUT GENDER. It is about stupidity.

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Oh my god, I can't even.

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Originally Posted by Miriel

What are you talking about? Cat can be stupid and still be a good character. Theon is evil AND stupid, but he's still a good character.

You really think someone has to like the actions of a character in order to like what they add to a show?

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what. no!

I don't like Cat because she is stupid! I don't have an issue with the drama, character development etc she adds to the show and never said I did!

Stop it! Why are you doing this Miriel

why have you done this to the game of thrones thread

I don't understand

why

why did you do this

why

you just wait 'til the next puppy and/or photography thread rolls around you better god damn believe i will destroy it

A day will come when you think yourself safe and happy, and suddenly your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth, and you'll know the debt is paid.

Hey, I just wanted to see more peen.

And you know why this happened, once someone mentions anything with an "ISM": racism, sexism, privilege, whatever. Other people will TO THEIR DYING BREATH claim that none of that is relevant. And then I'll be all, "yes it is" and they'll be all, "OMG NO IT ISN'T HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT?!" And I'll be like, "seriously?" And they're be all, "GOD YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT I HAVE BLACK FRIENDS!!"

Then the usual back and forth. Blah blah blah.

PS. Not 100% sure, but I think I am the only person to even bring up the fact that Drogo raped Dany in the first season. Wasn't even discussed or mentioned by the rest of you, despite many many instances of people talking about Drogo being awesome. Male characters never ever get a pass for being awful though, right? That just does. not. happen.

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Originally Posted by Shlup

The entire season has been a buildup for the next episode. Eeeee!

I feel like anyone who would think Cat is stupid hasn't bothered to take a moment to really put themselves in her shoes. Her husband was murdered, the murderers hold her daughters (well, they don't know Arya's MIA), another murderer has her little boys... though I was sure that at this point in the books she had heard Theon killed the boys. She is a mother, and all of her childrens' lives are in very direct danger. If I were her, I would be smurfing tit up all over the place to save my kids. Getting her girls back costs her, what, Jaime? In the books she makes him swear an oath not to take up arms again, at least. Regardless, what kind of parent wouldn't trade one guy for their captive children? He's a good fighter, sure, but it's not even like he's a great tactician; he can be captured or killed, but there may not be another chance for Cat to save her girls, especially since Karstark was looking to kill Jaime the first chance he'd get.

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Yes, I am excited for the next episode, too.

I think that Catelyn is a very unique character to see in fiction as her story has a lot of twists and turns that most mothers are never put through. It is interesting to see her story in the books as she is a point of view character, so she doesn't benefit from the TV show as much as other characters like Robb have, but she will eventually, I think. That's what I'm most interested to see.

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PS. Not 100% sure, but I think I am the only person to even bring up the fact that Drogo raped Dany in the first season. Wasn't even discussed or mentioned by the rest of you, despite many many instances of people talking about Drogo being awesome. Male characters never ever get a pass for being awful though, right? That just does. not. happen.

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Most of the people in this thread have read the books and understand the dynamic of their relationship, as well as the internal struggle that Dany faced that cannot be shown clearly in the show. It is horrific that she was raped by Drogo, but without the understanding of the books you cannot really comment on this scene accurately. It had to be shown the way it was because you cannot show the internal struggle that she was going through very well on a screen.

Also, I completely lied. I'm not done with this conversation but I have only one thing to say.

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And you know why this happened, once someone mentions anything with an "ISM": racism, sexism, privilege, whatever. Other people will TO THEIR DYING BREATH claim that none of that is relevant. And then I'll be all, "yes it is" and they'll be all, "OMG NO IT ISN'T HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT?!" And I'll be like, "seriously?" And they're be all, "GOD YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT I HAVE BLACK FRIENDS!!"

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Get off of your high horse and stop pretending like you are the only one who understands sexism or racism, or any other type of ism. This does not at all accurately represent any of the conversation that went on in the last few pages of this thread and is so utterly about you making yourself into a matyr that it is absolutely smurfing ridiculous. You position on the matter is known and regardless of whether or not you want to admit it, you clearly did not argue that position very well. You bring up things that lead to people drawing conclusions, don't point out in any of the following posts that the conclusions being drawn aren't exactly right and argue back and forth based on those 'false conclusions' and then refuse to provide your own opinions on the matter. If I wanted to read a dozen different interpretations on the sexual objectification of women in the series, or in any other type of media, I would. I asked for YOUR opinion on what constitutes sexism and sexual objectification within the context of the show and you refused to provide it because you are lazy or lack the understanding of what it is enough to further argue your point. If you aren't going to all the way to support your argument just stop right now and get over it.

Here are a few male characters that are frequently cited as the most hated people in the series, regardless of rhyme or reason:

Joffrey Baratheon: Even though he is represented as a vile little :bou::bou::bou::bou: and one of the major villains of the series, you cannot simply ignore him based on those grounds. Simply not being a sympathetic enough character is not grounds for dismissing him in this category. If you want to, that's your prerogative but it's pretty silly to do so.

Theon Greyjoy: He is not a villain at all and is one of the more sympathetic characters in the show and grows significantly throughout the show. He is a young man trying to find his place in the world and smurfs up so many times doing it. He betrays the family that loves him for the family that hates him, betrays his best and only friend in the entire world out of some misguided loyalty for his father, and gets completely demolished for it. Calling him a villain does a complete disservice for his growth as a character.

The Hound: A lot of people hate him because of the actions that he makes and the things that he does on behalf of Joffrey. His protection and care of Sansa redeems him a bit but does not completely absolve the hatred that he receives from fans of the show and books.

GRRM wrote the next episode.

This thread has become redundant. Let me save you all time and effort.

It doesn't matter what you say or how you say it. Our reasons for hating idiotic women will always be sexist ones to Mirial Of Arc, we have no say in this. Evidence is not needed for her judgement. Only women bleed, all men are scum and bras are nothing but a prison for the chest..

Now can we get back on track.


I'd really do Rose Leslie. I duno why she looks so smurfing hot as an unwashed wild woman but good god people.

Off current topic spoilers:

(SPOILER)Did anyone else notice that they are making Roose's betrayal of Robb and the eventual Red Wedding scene more understandable to the audience with the introduction of Thalisa? There have been several scenes in which Robb and Roose have been talking, she comes in, and he dismisses him to his disappointment. If you look at his faces, you can see that he's growing more and more pissed at these instances. Thought it was kinda cool that they are starting to put it in the audiences heads this early.

They've done this with seceral characters in the TV series to make them more sympathetic to the audience. Cersei springs to mind. However, yes I've noticed.

Re Bunny: Yes, because acknowledging sexism is somehow waaay more high horse-y than completely just denying that it plays a part in any of this. I don't know why you keep arguing this with such a scoffing and dismissive attitude. I think anyone who reads my post has a clear understanding of why I think the way I do. Do I really need to get all dissertation-y on your ass? Cause yeah, I am lazy, and I don't think it has a place in this thread anymore. Which is why I told you to google it because there is a LOT already within about it. And my views generally line up with others who have written about GoT using women as sexual props. SNL even did a skit about it for god's sake. And even more crazy, that bit about sexual objectification only came about as some of us females lamenting the lack of male eye candy. The only reason that discussion went full blown was cause you had the gall to take something lighthearted and then be all, THAT'S NOT SEXISM about it, when clearly that's not true. Do you even realize how often males have used the "it's just target demographics" excuse? It was amusing to hear you post that while simultaneously promoting men's rights. You think being all, "That's not sexist, and THAT's not sexist, and neither is THAT" is somehow so much better than me saying, "That IS sexist, and that other thing is sexist too"? Do you see me asking YOU to prove how something ins't sexist? To prove that serving a target demographic is mutually exclusive from sexism? Nah.

Why do I have to convince you of my position? I don't. I'll say it again, I DON'T CARE if you hate Cat for whatever reasons you want to, and I don't care if you don't agree with me. It's my theory and one that makes sense to me. If you want more answers about sexism in media, then do what I suggested and research the topic. It's not my job to go beyond posting my opinion, which as far as I can tell has been pretty clear and readily understandable.

To Psychotic, I do apologize for hurting your beloved thread. You're right that this has absolutely gone on far too long. I would have stopped long ago, if people's responses weren't so god damn bitchy. Which I'm sure is the same reason people haven't stopped responding to me.

Lighthearted? The convo had nothing to do with cats gender until you brought it up.

Telling people that they are wrong, that gender does play a part in it, is very pretentious of you. Of course you're going to get the reactions you got. What did you expect?

While everything isn't sexist, it's also not free from sexism either. The problem people are having is that you are telling us that we personally feel a certain way because of sexist reasons. Not every emotion is because of sexist/racist/etc ideals. Some of us are just hateful, critical people. Telling us that we have motives other than that is you assuming and making decisions for us. That's why people are getting snippy wih you. But you can't accept the fact that we just don't like her. You keep insisting that there has to be more to it, that her gender is part of it. We keep telling you that's not the case but we're the ones that are bitchy?

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Lighthearted? The convo had nothing to do with cats gender until you brought it up.

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And even more crazy, that bit about sexual objectification only came about as some of us females lamenting the lack of male eye candy. The only reason that discussion went full blown was cause you had the gall to take something lighthearted and then be all, THAT'S NOT SEXISM about it, when clearly that's not true.

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I'm pretty sure us talking about lack of penis was lighthearted.

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But you can't accept the fact that we just don't like her. You keep insisting that there has to be more to it, that her gender is part of it. We keep telling you that's not the case but we're the ones that are bitchy?

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I can accept it. I've already said I accept it. I've even also said that she obviously has qualities people legitimately dislike about her, even if I don't agree. Where you keep missing the point is in the discussion ABOUT her versus the level of discussion towards other characters isn't in my opinion, without some sort of gender bias. As it is with a LOT of fandoms out there. Nearly every fandom in fact. I think you just plain skim over my posts (not that I blame you, they are long). And yes, y'all ARE being bitchy and overprotective. And I was being bitchy too. What about it?

There are two points here, one about Cat and another about boy's nudity vs. girls, which Bunny seemed to take offense to that I might suggest sexism in such a thing. And also, some random bits thrown in about reddit for good measure.

The ultimate question I have is: If there were a role reversal and Cat were a man and Ned was a woman. Do YOU personally feel that the reaction to those characters would be exactly the same as the reaction now? Same dialogue, same motivations, same circumstance, but just switching the genders. If you think it would be the same, that people wouldn't cut a man a little bit more slack, that a female character as dumb as Ned would still be well liked just as much, then we're on two completely different wave lengths. And I happen not to agree.

Ned would have made one dumb bitch.

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Originally Posted by The Man

adwd spoilerhe starts out a villain, but by the end of adwd he definitely isn't one and it's pretty clear you're not supposed to think he deserves the horrifying torture he receives even after his horrific actions in acok.

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He's still a villain. Just not as much as (SPOILER)Ramsay Snow/Bolton.

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Originally Posted by Bunny

Off current topic spoilers:

(SPOILER)Did anyone else notice that they are making Roose's betrayal of Robb and the eventual Red Wedding scene more understandable to the audience with the introduction of Thalisa? There have been several scenes in which Robb and Roose have been talking, she comes in, and he dismisses him to his disappointment. If you look at his faces, you can see that he's growing more and more pissed at these instances. Thought it was kinda cool that they are starting to put it in the audiences heads this early.

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Yes, actually.

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Originally Posted by Miriel

The ultimate question I have is: If there were a role reversal and Cat were a man and Ned was a woman. Do YOU personally feel that the reaction to those characters would be exactly the same as the reaction now? Same dialogue, same motivations, same circumstance, but just switching the genders. If you think it would be the same, that people wouldn't cut a man a little bit more slack, that a female character as dumb as Ned would still be well liked just as much, then we're on two completely different wave lengths. And I happen not to agree.

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I have a feeling Freya's going to continue to walk past you, but for what it's worth I agree entirely with this point, and think that anyone who's living in denial of gender bias that hard has some impressive skills.

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Originally Posted by Del Murder

Ned would have made one dumb bitch.

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Fo' sho'.

did anyone buy the game?

Obviously you'll keep ignoring my points and continue to bring her gender into the equation rather than speaking of her actions objectively. I think you just plain skim over my posts. (not that I blame you they can get long) so ill just stop here with, I don't think gender has anything to do with my hate toward her and you think it does. That's that. Good job. We can stop this nonsense and get back to making this thread awesome like Paul wants.

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Originally Posted by Hypoallergenic Cactuar

did anyone buy the game?

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Which one? The RPG or the RTS? I downloaded the RTS to give it a shot but never installed it. Too busy, what with Skyrim and Skyward Sword and FFXIII-2 and Diablo III and Guild Wars 2.

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Originally Posted by Shlup

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Originally Posted by The Man

adwd spoilerhe starts out a villain, but by the end of adwd he definitely isn't one and it's pretty clear you're not supposed to think he deserves the horrifying torture he receives even after his horrific actions in acok.

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He's still a villain. Just not as much as (SPOILER)Ramsay Snow/Bolton.

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I disagree. (SPOILER)His internal monologue indicates that he is repentant for most of his most horrible actions and his actions indicate he has quite a lot of concern for others. The old Theon would never have rescued Jeyne from Ramsay at great personal risk. I'm pretty sure Martin threw that in there, amongst other reasons, to show us that Theon is a changed man.

not really a spoilerHe's no Joffrey, but there's some tit you can't undo.

I changed your spoiler tag to cover more of your post because, even though it's minor, (SPOILER)Theon being remorseful and changing hasn't happened in the show yet.

Now that I'm home and not posting from work on my phone, yes I would still hate both their actions just as much as I hate them now.

I don't understand what's so hard to believe that I focus on actions of a character instead of gender? I don't separate people into categories. I think of people as one whole unit. They aren't male or female, they are people. And people are smurfing idiots.

But this whole sexism nonsense isn't suited for this thread. Make an EoEO thread if you want to go on about it. This thread is about GoT and the show and occasionally the books. And maybe the game if you got it (I hear it's really super glitchy with gameplay and graphics. But the story is supposed to be great, slow at the beginning and then bam awesome.) And despite how many times I tried to steer it back to being about the characters and their actions it keeps getting spread to this sexism thing. So enough, take it to an EoEO thread. Let's get back to talking about how amazing Jaqen is.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3p0ix7kH81qlhpab.gif

You're taking commentary on society waaay too personal. Keep the gifs coming though.

I'd do Jaqen. And I'm really excited for the next episode.

I hope this episode sees Melisandre casting a spell on Stannis so that he grows to the size of the Stay Puft man, and then he stomps King's Landing. Naked.

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Originally Posted by Shlup

not really a spoilerHe's no Joffrey, but there's some tit you can't undo.

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(SPOILER)Right, I wouldn't consider him a hero for exactly that reason. He's an anti-hero, like Jaime and several other characters.

@spoiler thing, makes sense, I probably would've even spoilered more of your previous post I responded to, since it implies content in my post that is kind of spoilerish, but whatever :monster:

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Originally Posted by Shlup

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Originally Posted by Hypoallergenic Cactuar

did anyone buy the game?

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Which one? The RPG or the RTS? I downloaded the RTS to give it a shot but never installed it. Too busy, what with Skyrim and Skyward Sword and FFXIII-2 and Diablo III and Guild Wars 2.

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The one that came out last tuesday

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Originally Posted by Rantz Rantz Revolution

I'd do Jaqen. And I'm really excited for the next episode.

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ditto that.

(SPOILER) I hope he gets more time in the show than he does in the books

I think at times Martin's characters move beyond even the anti-hero tag. We can't label some characters at all because we can't tell what their true motivations are, and I think that's because the characters themselves don't always fully understand what's motivating them. What's really interesting to follow is how different characters affect each other. Jaime and Arya are notable for this. Their characters make little shifts each time they get tangled up with someone new. (SPOILER)Is it me or is it the one-dimensional characters that tend to get themselves killed? Joffrey--100% douche=dead, Ned--100% honorable=dead, etc.

I expect this next episode to be really awesome. The last couple have felt a bit flat, which is understandable of course because of the way the storylines are moving, but I'm ready for some more big moments.

A woman asks, and a woman shall receive.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m4...go1_r1_500.gif

I find this guy to be like the hottest assassin ever and I'm sad there isn't the bath scene with him or something. I'm sure it's because they knew ovaries eveyrwhere would explode.

Those white streaks melt my panties.

You people sure can smurfing talk about a bunch of bulltrout. :colbert:

KC, keep posting gifs. :D

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Originally Posted by Hypoallergenic Cactuar

The one that came out last tuesday

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Yes, which one is that? Is it a role-playing game?

I believe he means that one. Since it just came out like a week or so ago.