I don't understand how you can be so mistaken.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal Khan
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I don't understand how you can be so mistaken.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal Khan
The issue I have with Cidney is that considering she's a female mechanic, it makes sense for her to be a tomboy. The fact that she's got petrol grease on her face and scruffy hat hair, along with the iconic goggles paints the symbolism for a tomboy, but at the same time she's got a really skimpy outfit on which is totally not suited for mechanical work :S
Of course it's entirely possible for her to be a female mechanic that isn't a tomboy, but I feel like she's giving off two different types of personalities both of which are clashing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal_Khan
Just throwing my bit in here. This is the same SE that decided to make Lightnings boobs bigger in Lightning Returns so she'd be more jiggly. Why? Cause... boob jiggles!
That was their last game released in the FF series... soooQuote:
According to a Famitsu interview (nabbed by DualShockers), Motomu Toriyama "wanted it bigger" with regards to Lightning's chest, a fact he found funny when interviewed on the subject. Lighting -- who Square Enix wants us to believe is a strong female character -- gets her jiggle on with various costumes in Lightning Returns, her model designer showing off how much you can make her chest bounce.
"Yes, her chest jiggles," explained Nobuhiro Goto. "Since everyone can decide what costume she’ll wear, you can make sure it does (laughs). By the way, since Lightning swings her arm when you change her weapon in the menu screen, that’s a recommended action for sure-fire jiggling! To see it even better it could be useful to equip a small shield. Look forward to it!"
JUST SAYING.
I don't know if anyone has brought that up yet cause, you guys post a lot but yeah. There it is again if it was brought up before!
I never actually noticed the jiggling as an obvious effect so it cannot be that present. The game is too dynamic to just look at her chest all the time and when you do she most of the time stands still.Quote:
Originally Posted by FreyaQuote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal_Khan
Just throwing my bit in here. This is the same SE that decided to make Lightnings boobs bigger in Lightning Returns so she'd be more jiggly. Why? Cause... boob jiggles!
That was their last game released in the FF series... soooQuote:
According to a Famitsu interview (nabbed by DualShockers), Motomu Toriyama "wanted it bigger" with regards to Lightning's chest, a fact he found funny when interviewed on the subject. Lighting -- who Square Enix wants us to believe is a strong female character -- gets her jiggle on with various costumes in Lightning Returns, her model designer showing off how much you can make her chest bounce.
"Yes, her chest jiggles," explained Nobuhiro Goto. "Since everyone can decide what costume she’ll wear, you can make sure it does (laughs). By the way, since Lightning swings her arm when you change her weapon in the menu screen, that’s a recommended action for sure-fire jiggling! To see it even better it could be useful to equip a small shield. Look forward to it!"
JUST SAYING.
I don't know if anyone has brought that up yet cause, you guys post a lot but yeah. There it is again if it was brought up before!
That is the exact opposite of what I always do so any further discussion is completely unnecessary. By the way a person can intend something and while the intention is there some people might still not notice it or probably have no problem with the intention. A perfect example is my last post in which you didn't understand what I was talking about. However you will not stop forcing yourself to feel insulted of something insignificant like you did the last 4 weeks and I am not interested in more of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shlup
By the way - you have insulted me now. By reading what you want you have completely missed out my character which would have told you that my post would never be meant the way you understood it.
I'm starting to wonder if Hannibal_Khan thinks anything is sexist at all? FF's female playable cast is entirely young, pretty (except for Freya) women, while the men have a full range of ages and types. The first and only female Cid is dressed like a smurf doll for her role as a mechanic. And (I hadn't heard this before) Lightning's chest was made bigger specifically so that players could make her jiggle for their viewing pleasure.
Like, dude, you don't have to declare FF The Most Sexist Game Series of All Time and throw all your games away, but when you say the games just aren't sexist I just don't even know what to say to that.
I feel like you're saying that, because you didn't personally notice, it's not relevant or real. Toriyama specifically states he purposefully made this feature, but it doesn't count because you didn't notice?Quote:
I never actually noticed the jiggling as an obvious effect so it cannot be that present. The game is too dynamic to just look at her chest all the time and when you do she most of the time stands still.
I don't understand your agenda. Either of you.
But they did increase her cup size from a C to a D because they just wanted her to have bigger boobs just cause. She went through 2 games without them. What was the reason? So her boobs look better in outfits? Because, jiggle?
It's because she's her creator's waifu.Quote:
Originally Posted by Freya
She was a terrible character from the start.
It also begs the question: If most people actually didn't notice, what the hell was the point of doing it in the first place?
These are not the creators of games that I want to play. :(
Who wastes precious billable hours on ball-smashingly expensive computers, developing a game for a series that has supported the company since its creation, just to make the main characters' tits wobble around!?
D:
That's a waste of smurfing time.
http://41.media.tumblr.com/5277f3c00...55fuo1_500.png
Hey, we don't even have a bingo yet. That's heartening.
Why is the characters age an issue?. The characters are they're respective age's b/c thats how the stories were written. What's wrong with that? 'A young group of friends join together and fight to save the...', yada yada yada, they're all hero's- this is FF in a nutshell. Alot fans of the series seem fine with that..Quote:
FF's female playable cast is entirely young, pretty (except for Freya) women, while the men have a full range of ages and types.
There's not any "non-pretty"(polite way of saying ugly) male characters either. Some of them look average but quite a few would be classified as "sexy", and all are thin or muscular. Similarly, there's not any "non-pretty" female characters, some are "sexy" but many would be considered average/normal looking. Why does the FF series have an obligation to make "non pretty" playable characters? I don't think the they should have to shape their vision of characters around the fear that there designs may be deemed sexist for not meeting some quota for character diversity.
Yes, Cidneys outfit is unreasonable for a real world mechanic, but Gladiolus open leather vest and abs would be a pretty lousy defense against bullets in the real world too. I see no logic in that argument, and I don't understand how you can keep reverting back to it. You say she's dressed like a "smurf doll", I still think thats just a different form of slut shaming. You make the assumption that just b/c her design is sexy that she will only be a sexual object. But FF doesn't have a history of doing that(imo), so i'm not under the impression that Cidneys character will be any different.Quote:
The first and only female Cid is dressed like a smurf doll for her role as a mechanic.
So, you are saying that FF's are sexist games? Their portrayal of female characters is responsible(at least in-part) for real world sexism? And, believe me, I have zero intention of throwing away any of my games because you deem them sexist. I'll take my good games over "politically correct" games any day.Quote:
Like, dude, you don't have to declare FF The Most Sexist Game Series of All Time and throw all your games away, but when you say the games just aren't sexist I just don't even know what to say to that.
In regards to the Lightning issue; I haven't played LR but i will give some opinions on the issue of her breast and the jiggling of said breast. First, they shouldn't have increased her size. Seems ridicules to change the original design for the 3rd game. The 'jiggle mechanics' thing is more nuanced tho. Breast are not static, they do jiggle. So I think jiggle mechanics can(and should) be used appropriately. I don't think boobs should just stay in the same place like plastic while the rest of the VG mechanic are becoming more realistic. But i'm not defending how they were used in LR(considering i havent even played the game so I can't really give an opinion on it).
You can highlight "Art shouldn't be censored" and "male babrbarians also fight half-naked" on your bingo board now too, i suppose.
But the reason wasn't for realism, it was for jiggling. What's your comment on that being a obviously sexist(read the quote again if you disagree) move by square enix and it being the most recent FF released? Do you feel that with XV being in development for so long, it was being produced the same time as LR, that those ideals could have been a factor in this new character's design? If not, why not? The same team is working on XV now.
I said i wasn't defending how the jiggle mechanic was used in LR(I haven't played it). I was saying that VG boobs shouldn't just stay still like plastic and implementing some kind of jiggle mechanic is not necessarily sexist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Freya
Schulp said "Toriyama specifically states he purposefully made this feature", so the blame is clearly on toriyama. Toriyama is not directing XV, Tabata is. Toriyama didn't design XV's characters, Nomura did.The FF series is a lot bigger than just games toriyama has directed. And, imo, the series does not show a history of "reinforcing sexist attitudes". And as much as I hate to defend Toriyama, I don't think his body of work is littered with sexism. They are mostly sub-par games tho, imo. But one instance of obvious sexism by one director is no reason to put the whole series on blast.
I hear the argument that the cast should be "more balanced", but i disagree. I don't think a artists should have to shape their vision of characters around some quota of "balanced representation", just for sake of doing so.
I don't think anyone said it should be "more balanced". The complaint is that the existing female characters are hyper sexualized merely because mmmm girl
If you can't even acknowledge an imbalance in how the genders are treated when presented with a completely objective numerical fact then I don't even know what you're trying to do here. Yeah, it's just "how the stories were written." Nothing is ever sexist or racist or at all problematic if it's "how it's written," apparently.Quote:
Why is the characters age an issue?. The characters are they're respective age's b/c thats how the stories were written. What's wrong with that?
Many posts ago we determined that male playable characters are two to three times more likely to have a character design not obviously made to be physically attractive to the player. Almost all of the female non-attractive characters were children, while the male characters were mostly non-children. But I suppose that imbalance is also somehow not a problem because that's just "how it's written"?Quote:
There's not any "non-pretty"(polite way of saying ugly) male characters either.
You're right, they aren't obligated to not be sexist. It would just be nice. I don't think it's that much to ask.Quote:
Why does the FF series have an obligation to make "non pretty" playable characters? I don't think the they should have to shape their vision of characters around the fear that there designs may be deemed sexist for not meeting some quota for character diversity.
I'm happy to clarify for you then. Cidney's outfit is part of a consistent pattern of sacrificing character design in order to sexualize female characters, while Gladiolus's shirt being unbuttoned is not. In addition to Cidney's outfit being part of a subversive pattern, it also breaks the pattern of previous incarnations of Cid--a character that's typically respectable, dressed in a way that makes sense for his character, and is often older. Immersion and credibility is being sacrificed for... eye candy.Quote:
Yes, Cidneys outfit is unreasonable for a real world mechanic, but Gladiolus open leather vest and abs would be a pretty lousy defense against bullets in the real world too. I see no logic in that argument, and I don't understand how you can keep reverting back to it.
Someone else literally dressed her up to be oogled. She isn't real. Someone sacrificed sensical character design for the express purpose of giving you something to fantasize about. She is literally a sex object.Quote:
You say she's dressed like a "smurf doll", I still think thats just a different form of slut shaming.
Treating the genders unequally would make them sexist by definition, yes. Are they the worst offenders? No, not by a long shot, unfortunately. Cidney and the Lightning boob thing are certainly running them up the ranks though.Quote:
So, you are saying that FF's are sexist games? Their portrayal of female characters is responsible(at least in-part) for real world sexism?
Well, good, because I just said that wasn't what was required of you...? I'm confused why you're adamantly against gender equality. What is it you think will happen? You'll never see a sexy woman again? You'll see too many sexy men? You might have to play a female character that's in her 30s? Sincerely, if you could clarify what it is about gender equality that upsets you, it would help.Quote:
And, believe me, I have zero intention of throwing away any of my games because you deem them sexist. I'll take my good games over "politically correct" games any day.
Also this. Yeah, breasts jiggle. Enlarging a character's breasts and adding jiggle for the player's pleasure is textbook objectification.Quote:
But the reason wasn't for realism, it was for jiggling.
Well I was gonna make a comment about ages and whether or not some of this talk of FF's pattern of sexualization and sexism (specifically regarding character design) really holds up, but I want to have some sure-fire numbers so I'm going to spreadsheet this mothersmurfer. Might take a while.
Some early interesting numbers from FFII-FFIV:
Out of 20 playable male characters, there are five old men, and two little boys.
Out of 8 playable female characters, there's one old woman, and one little girl.
13/20 of the males are young, handsome men.
6/8 of the females are young, pretty girls.
The percentages are actually not far off. I think the problem there is that there's a disproportionate male-to-female number of playable characters. If there were more female characters would there be more old, ugly women?
More important, perhaps, is the comparison of the actual designs. Only three out of the twenty male characters show any significant amount of skin at all. FF2's Firion and big dumb Gus, and FF4's Yang. Only one of those three could really be considered "sexualized" at all, and that's Firion.
On the other hand, of the females, only the little girl, Porom(FF4), the old woman, Unei(FF3), and the runaway, Refia(FF3), do not show significant amounts of skin including cleavage.
That's 5/8 vs. 3/20. That's significant, I think.
It's important to point out that none of this really shows up so much in these early games given their pixelated in-game designs. Thus, these aren't exactly examples of sexism-reinforcing images, but it has other implications, and I'll get into that more later when I get the other games tabulated and finish the stats.
The list of playable characters includes temporarily playable characters (which I didn't include in my own analysis) but the list does not include Unei. Are you sure she's playable? It says she will help in a battle but it doesn't say you can play as her.
I appreciate the back up with the stats.
In the 3DS version she's temporarily (and only partially) playable. I'm trying to be thorough, covering all bases for those that might seek to use such trivialities to undermine the numbers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shlup
Interesting fact about Unei:
She shows up alongside Doga (Unei's old male peer in FF3) in FFXIV, in which both characters are young, pretty, generic hyurs (...sorta).
They're hyper sexualized now??? Are we playing the same FF's? lol Dis FF, not Leizure Suite Larry. Honestly tho, which characters do you think are hyper sexualized?Quote:
Originally Posted by Freya
@shulp
I did acknowledge the in-balance, but i'm saying it's marginal.Quote:
If you can't even acknowledge an imbalance in how the genders are treated when presented with a completely objective numerical fact then I don't even know what you're trying to do here
That list is hardly "objective numerical fact". Totally subjective(you admitted this in an earlier post tho).And, imo, there should be 3 categories; Un attractive, Average, Sexy.16 unattractive males?!! geez shulp, you must have some pretty high standards lol. But seriously, i would be interested in seeing your list of the unnatractive males. But No, the number of unattractive females to males ratio will likely not be even on anybody's list. But does it have to be exactly even for you to think it's not sexist? For every unattractive male there has to be an unattractive female?
Not "we", just you(again, anyone's list of unattractive characters will be completely subjective). But lets use my list as an example; I have 5 unattractive females to 10 males. So there's twice as many unattractive males to females(based on my subjective opinion).That sounds like a large disparity, on face alone, but the difference is still only 5 characters. and therefor seems marginal.Quote:
Many posts ago we determined that male playable characters are two to three times more likely to have a character design not obviously made to be physically attractive to the player.
So if a female is on the "sexy" end of the scale, her credibility is sacrifice and she is "literally a sex object", and that's it? she can't be anything else? No other layers or dimensions to her as a character? Well that just isn't true for other "sexy" female ff characters. Cidneys design is sexualizing but Gladiolus isn't? Hypocritical, bull trout.You seem to be saying that it's only sexist when female characters are sexualised.Quote:
Cidney's outfit is part of a consistent pattern of sacrificing character design in order to sexualize female characters, while Gladiolus's shirt being unbuttoned is not. In addition to Cidney's outfit being part of a subversive pattern, it also breaks the pattern of previous incarnations of Cid--a character that's typically respectable, dressed in a way that makes sense for his character, and is often older. Immersion and credibility is being sacrificed for... eye candy.
Agian, does the ratio of characters have to be precisley equal to not be sexist. I believe the issue is much more nuanced and is therefor irresponsible to label the games sexist for that reason.Quote:
Treating the genders unequally would make them sexist by definition, yes.
HAHAHA thank you, i literally laughed out load from that last bit. What, from my posts, leads you to believe I would have a problem with seeing "too many sexy men"? Beatrix is around 30, and i adore her character(plus she's just so DAMN HOT!!!). I have no issue with female characters in there 30's or w/e. I just said that FF's theme is exclusively about young hero's, and thus the disparity in characters ages are irrelevant, b/c of coarse there's going to be many more younger characters. That doesn't mean there sexist. But, in all honestly, whats not funny is that b/c i have a dissenting opinion to you on the issue, that you will label me as a sexist/misogynist and for some reason implying some homophobia, as a ploy to diminish my arguments...Quote:
I'm confused why you're adamantly against gender equality. What is it you think will happen? You'll never see a sexy woman again? You'll see too many sexy men? You might have to play a female character that's in her 30s? Sincerely, if you could clarify what it is about gender equality that upsets you, it would help.
*snip* EDIT BY BoB: That was definitely inappropriate, dude.
I was referring to the 23 male playable characters that are older than the oldest female playable character.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal_Khan
No, it doesn't have to be exactly equal, but not being double or triple would be a start.
"We" as in the people participating in the discussion at the time.Quote:
Not "we", just you(again, anyone's list of unattractive characters will be completely subjective). But lets use my list as an example; I have 5 unattractive females to 10 males. So there's twice as many unattractive males to females(based on my subjective opinion).That sounds like a large disparity, on face alone, but the difference is still only 5 characters. and therefor seems marginal.Quote:
Many posts ago we determined that male playable characters are two to three times more likely to have a character design not obviously made to be physically attractive to the player.
That aside, a 100% increase is marginal to you? Wow.
I'm unsure why you think it's appropriate to take this one example an apply it to every circumstance. I am specifically talking about Cidney's nonsense outfit. We aren't going to make any progress at all if you take every opportunity to run off the deep end.Quote:
So if a female is on the "sexy" end of the scale, her credibility is sacrifice and she is "literally a sex object", and that's it?
No, you're misunderstanding what I was addressing. I was explaining to you why the sexualization is problematic. I've said several times that sexualization is not the problem; it's imbalance that's the problem. I would consider it a personal favor if you would put some effort into remembering what should be a simple point, as your continued implication that I believe all sexy is bad is not helpful. I'm sure you don't want to waste your effort fighting phantoms.Quote:
Cidneys design is sexualizing but Gladiolus isn't?
Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. Usually it's a woman, but sometimes it's a man. It would be foolish to make absolute statements about complex issues.Quote:
You seem to be saying that it's only sexist when female characters are sexualised.
I wasn't implying anything and I certainl didn't put any labels on you. It was an honest question.Quote:
HAHAHA thank you, i literally laughed out load from that last bit. What, from my posts, leads you to believe I would have a problem with seeing "too many sexy men"? Beatrix is around 30, and i adore her character(plus she's just so DAMN HOT!!!). I have no issue with female characters in there 30's or w/e. I just said that FF's theme is exclusively about young hero's, and thus the disparity in characters ages are irrelevant, b/c of coarse there's going to be many more younger characters. That doesn't mean there sexist. But, in all honestly, whats not funny is that b/c i have a dissenting opinion to you on the issue, that you will label me as a sexist/misogynist and for some reason implying some homophobia, as a ploy to diminish my arguments...
*snip* EDIT BY BoB: Nothing to see here, folks, just a response to something that was deleted in another post.
Oh hey, sure is nice to see the same arguments we went over 26 pages ago get dragged up again. Means I don't have to go back to read them all and feel depressed again.
Hmm, I think I missed the part where a sexist remark from Ron Burgundy was a good idea. When he says it, he is a joke character whose stupidity and sexism are being mocked by the filmmakers. When you say it... you're an actual person talking to actual women. It doesn't have the light hearted "oh, aren't attitudes like this archaic and silly?" effect of the film. Even with a .gif.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal_Khan
Then what, pray tell, were Edgar, Sabin, Cyan, Barret, Cid, Vincent, Steiner, Auron, Basch, Fran, (omg a woman!) and Sazh doing in their respective games? The youngest of those is 27. They're not the majority of playable characters, most of whom are under 25, sure, but when you do get older characters (which you do, so it isn't 'exclusively' about young heroes) they are men. 10 times out of 11.Quote:
I just said that FF's theme is exclusively about young hero's
Let's have a few more rugged, badass women in these roles please.
Basically I just want more Judge Drace. Why can't she be in every game. Or have more than 3 minutes of screen time in the game she was in...
yeah, true men have like brains the size of beach balls. Too bad they've got about the same contents too...
Actually it would be 24 out of 25, if we're counting Fran.Quote:
10 times out of 11.
I'm not saying that I don't want older female characters.I'm just disagreeing with notion the series is sexist b/c of unbalanced representation. You want more balanced playable characters? Then tell me which characters are changed to achieve this. B/c every character has their fans among both genders, who are happy to have those characters. More "balanced" cast doesn't = better game. IV-X are great games, not sexist, and also don't have a balanced representation all female body types. Should the writers write their stories around some quota of balanced ages. Should character designers alter their vision of a design to meet a quota for non attractive character? My answer to this is, "Of Course Not!". You put the game in hands of the artist who create them. You allow them to create the game they want to make, the story they want to tell. If the cards fall and there's not a "balanced cast", that doesn't mean that the game is sexist (and by extension, the artist that create them). That has been the process in the past and it has resulted in some pretty great games. Let be clear tho, they're not great b/c their isn't a "balanced" cast, they're great b/c the creators were able to make the story and characters that they wanted to make. Like I said in several previous post, It's nuanced...Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
I liked Judge Drace too. Would rather have had her as guest member instead of that bratty prince, but that wasnt how Ito made the game. I don't chalk it up to sexism tho. You want a playable character like Judge Drace? Well I hope a future FF games creator creates a character like that and your wanting is fulfilled. But I say that the design should be the creators vision of the character and not just for an agenda to have more "balanced" cast. Compromising that princible is your best bet for getting both bad character and lousy games, imo.
Well let me point out what you missed, Schlup asked me if why I was "so adamatley against gender equality". That's not a serious question. She's implicating me a sexist/misogynist. Thats an attack on my character, my morale standing. Yes, me, a real world person, Fox. She's done this more than once. At least when i retalliated i used a gif and the satire/humor was obviously implied. Do you think that was a "honest question", that schulp asked me? If my above explaination on views does not sufficiently convince you that im not a sexist, then what would? Do i need to list my views on all the issues of gender equallity in order to validate whether i can express my views on issue without being brushed off as just promoting sexist attitudes? B/c im not going to do that.......Quote:
Hmm, I think I missed the part where a sexist remark from Ron Burgundy was a good idea. When he says it, he is a joke character whose stupidity and sexism are being mocked by the filmmakers. When you say it... you're an actual person talking to actual women. It doesn't have the light hearted "oh, aren't attitudes like this archaic and silly?" effect of the film. Even with a .gif.
Maybe at future date we could discuss our views on the issue in a more productive and less standoffish eniroment(which im sure im partially guilty fostering), but untill that time, i dont have the desire to dabate the topic any further.
I'm all for letting creators make what they want to make. But surely it's pretty clear how "the creators didn't want to make games with women in them" is sexist. Probably not maliciously so, but then most of the white people in '50s America weren't malicious with their racism either, they just assumed the attitudes they had been raised with - that black people weren't as capable/intelligent/moral as white people.
Same deal here. It's just ignorance, but it's still problematic. Being an artist doesn't give you a free pass.
Easy. All of them. Any of them. I cannot think of a single character off the top of my head from the series where it was 'important' that they were male. Perhaps the male half of relationships? So Cecil, Squall, Zidane, Steiner, Tidus, Balthier - there may be particular reasons you wouldn't change those. Perhaps Irvine because being a gross, sleazy dude was an important character trait.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal_Khan
Anyone else though? Swap 'em, change the pronouns and you're done. I can't imagine any of their characters would have been diminished by that.
I think Suikoden does a good job with this, personally. Sure you get characters like this:
(SPOILER)
http://gensopedia.theirstar.com/imag...oden_IV%29.pnghttps://yurination.files.wordpress.c...sara.jpg?w=217
But then you also get characters like this:
(SPOILER)
http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/...20100425145242http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/...20140722035624http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/...20100228040840
There's a variety of women of different shapes, types, sizes, and ages. You can still have young, sexy women. Just, you know, not all of them
I apologize, Hannibal, for failing to find a way to ask you to explain your position to me without sounding accusatory. I've tried to rephrase my request several different ways, but I seem to be unable to find a way to ask the question that makes it clear that I really am looking for you to answer. If my phrasing makes you feel like I'm trying to imply you're a misogynist, I apologize again--I have no intention of putting labels on anyone.
The reason I use the phrase "adamantly opposed to gender equality" is that you are arguing against me, when my argument is simply that the genders should be treated equally. I've listed several ways in which the FF series does not treat the genders equally, and you've agreed that they're not equal, but you dismiss those inequalities as not problematic. I explained three ways Cidney's outfit specifically is problematic, and you said I was being hypocritical for not giving Gladiolus's open shirt equal weight, despite none of those three ways applying to him.
I'm simply asking how wide the disparity has to be before you feel it is problematic, especially in the face of such overwhelming data supporting the claim that it's already well into "problematic" territory. I'm also asking what your motivation is for opposing the people in this thread who are in favor of equal treatment of the genders. The guesses I made seem to have offended you--that wasn't my intent; I just have no idea what your motivation could be here.
In regards to the way you've been painting my position, there are still some flaws. For one, no one has proposed a quota that ensures 100% tit-for-tat balance in every circumstance. All that's required is that game creator's be aware of the implications of the design choices they make. I appreciate that you want to defend "artists," but you'll be hard pressed to convince me that giving Lightning a jiggly boob job is them being "artistic" and "creative."
There are no "cards" falling; there is someone behind every decision. We can give things a pass on a regular basis--it's okay to have games with male casts or with female casts--but when one gender is consistently less represented than the other but also consistently more sexualized, that is sexist, and that is something an "artist" should consider when designing their world and story.Quote:
If the cards fall and there's not a "balanced cast", that doesn't mean that the game is sexist (and by extension, the artist that create them).
To give another example, sitcom writers are actively moving away from the "dumb dad" trope because it's become problematic and offensive. I know so many dads (and non-dads, and women) who are irritated that TV shows portray them as incapable of caring for their own children. People have made it known that there is a demand out there for competent dads on TV, and now there's a a decrease in that stereotype.
And then there's those troutty live action Disney Channel shows where the tweens are constantly being troutty to their stupid parents. If you think media doesn't influence our attitudes, spend time with a kid whose parents let them watch those. All of my friends have banned their kids from watching them because as soon as they do, their kids start disrespecting them. Hopefully Disney Channel will figure out soon that that trout's old.
Again, I apologize for making you feel as though my goal was to call you a misogynist. I'm trying to understand your position and simply failing.
Given that you say you have a larger brain than that of all women and that you infer that brain size some how equates to intelligence, you should have known that this post was completely uncalled for and should have also known to not post it. Do not post things like this again. Consider this a warning.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal_Khan
Hajime Tabata did an AMA today and while it focused on Type-0 some XV questions were in there as well.
So is she not THE Cid? But just a Cid?Quote:
What can we expect in Episode Duscae?
In terms of Episode Duscae...you'll find out if Cindy is this game's "Cid" by playing the demo!
I don't understand. I thought it was already mentioned by one of the developers (I don't remember who it was) that Cidney is Cid. Why this nonsense now?Quote:
Originally Posted by Freya
Also, I forgot to post my findings on FF's history of sexualization by gender. I need to make some charts. Be back.
I am more amazed by the fact people still miss that Shidonii is Cidney and not Cindy. She is supposed to be called Cidney as she is at least a Cid and that is what her name is. Hopefully no one will do another mistanslation in the game.
This is why I posted previously if this had been defined by the developers or if everyone just assumed based on her employment and name similarity. And there still seems to be a mystery as to the origin of this idea. It makes sense to assume, but I'm still kind of afraid it was all just an assumption in the end, and may not actually pan out. Especially since place still keep changing randomly between calling her Cidney and Cindy. They're both floating around pretty prevalently depending on how or how they decided to translate it :/Quote:
Originally Posted by chionosI don't understand. I thought it was already mentioned by one of the developers (I don't remember who it was) that Cidney is Cid. Why this nonsense now?Quote:
Originally Posted by Freya
Also, I forgot to post my findings on FF's history of sexualization by gender. I need to make some charts. Be back.
If she turns out to be just some ho, I would feel much better.
Waiting on those charts, mothersmurfer.
So here's the first set of charts and whatnot. I really did this for me, because I wasn't sure how the numbers were and I didn't want to keep spouting things without knowing for sure what the statistics were.
I think the stats speak for themselves. I'm not trying to interpret anything. I know what they mean to me, but I know others might see them differently.
These numbers show the total number of each gender of playable characters in each game divided by era. It also shows the number of characters who were designed to show an excessive or unnecessary amount of skin. I made decisions as equitably as possible. If I counted a female for showing an excessive amount of boob, then I also counted any male character who showed an equal amount of his own chest.
These charts do not necessarily indicate sexualization. That's harder to show, because of how relative it might seem to some, so I'm trying to find proof for each instance of proposed sexualization before posting it. There are a bunch of ways to try to show this, and it's hard getting it all tracked down and parsed and stuff.
Attachment 62227
Attachment 62228
Attachment 62229
Attachment 62230
And here's the overall numbers. As you can see, the percentage of female characters who show excessive or unnecessary amounts of skin has almost always been much higher than the percentage of male characters who show skin excessively. In fact, there's never been a game with more male playable characters showing skin than female characters showing skin (by percentage). FFX might be the only exception, but I do think that's a result of the game setting dictating to the designers that basically everyone in FFX be half-naked.
Attachment 62224
1. Some other interesting gleanings include the fact that FF6 is the best game in the entire series, yet again, regarding parity between the sexes (I think FFX is an anomaly).
2. Notice the dip in overall skin% through what most people consider the best stretch of games Final Fantasy ever gave us, FFVI-FFIX, even though the gender gap remained (7-9).
3. Five games had 100% of its playable females showing excessive skin. 0 games had 100% of its playable males showing that much skin.
Here's Cid so far. Some of these numbers are slightly estimated, but I'm still digging to get it exact.
Attachment 62226
It seems Cid's age is trending downward, albeit slowly, with two major dips in FFVII's and FFXIII's Cids both being in their 20's. FFVII's big dip really shows how SE likes its FF characters young. For six installments, Cid was in his mid 50's or older, and suddenly, when he's going to be a playable character, his age drops by ~30 years. I'm not trying to insinuate anything with this information, just find it interesting.
I'm working on some other stuff, primarily the ages. Some characters' ages aren't ever explicitly given so I'm trying to dig them up.
Attachment 62231Quote:
Originally Posted by Pike
It is very possible that FF XV's "Cid" will be a woman. In following in the FF character's tradition (as stated) she fits all the categories. I read a lot of comments addressing the sexualization of this character. We're not the designer and we're unsure of the many possibilities of why she is portrayed in this way, but our minds will always tend to go on the offensive side. Our Western culture is vastly different from Eastern culture. If anything, Western culture allows for more sexualization in reality, meaning, how we live and breath, not what is in the movies, video games, etc. Eastern cultures have a much different outlook on things. If we specifically talk about Japan, couples rarely live together before marriage, don't have children without being married and even their law does not recognize father's of children born outside of wedlock. I've also read that mothers are not seen by their husbands as sexually desirable anymore. Once a child is born the mother becomes like a relative so to speak, which may be a reason why most families have one child. Nevertheless, I am not ignoring how offensive this character may be to some, but culturally the game is designed and coming out in a culture that see's things different. The bottomline is this: you have a choice. With a sure-fire M for Mature rating for this game, viewer/playing is advised. If you don't want to play for various ethical/moral reasons, then fine, but also respect those who decide to play regardless.
This is Claire Redfield in the newest Resident Evil game.
http://i.imgur.com/7BbIXtX.png
She's fully clothed, and not the least bit sexualized. Want the real kicker? Capcom is a Japanese video game company. The games are made by Japanese developers. So obviously, the Japanese are fully capable of not sexualizing their women characters, but when Square does the opposite it's a "cultural difference" thing or "taking it out of context." No. Cidney is dressed that way as eye-candy to male audiences. No other reason than that.
Poor woman. Doesn't she get that the zombies will be able to grab onto her clothes more easily than her bare skin?
Dude @.@ She looks awesome. That alone makes me want to buy the new Resident Evil. Go Capcom. I've given them trout in the past, but outside of Jill Valentine's outfit in the third game, their Resident Evil outfits are mostly tame
Her outfit in 5 was worse! The worst bit about it was that she was wearing a catsuit and had a control device on her chest and then keeps the catsuit unzipped even once it's been ripped off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyk
Oh godQuote:
Originally Posted by PsychoticHer outfit in 5 was worse!Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyk
SafariClubbin' Sheva. Oh god Tribal Sheva.
Yeah, I wasn't really considering the alternative costumes, even for Chris, most were pretty wretched. And about the catsuit, like... at least she was covered. I was comparing it to her wearing a freaking mini-skirt and fighting zombies. At least a catsuit is functional, if a little unnecessary. But yeah, it's certainly not immune to being considered sexualized since she's just one step away from really just being naked and covered in black paint
This character fits the role Capcom designed for her. She's in a completely different game. Had she been "auditioning" for FF XV, she would have been told what the director had in mind for what she will wear for that role and the scene she is in. Why does this have to be ONLY about eye-candy for male audiences? You'd have to apply the same principles to all sorts of media, the TV shows, movies, plays, etc. Plus in our Western culture, you can't just apply that to eye candy for males only. Why couldn't that be eye candy for females? I'm not trying to pick an argument, I respect you opinion/views, but there is so much more depth to labeling something because of the role what was designed for a specific character, in a specific game, for a specific reason.
We do. They do a terrible job of proper representation as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlewbro
I'm not sure what your point is regarding the auditioning thing. "Right my dear, you performed great in Resident Evil, but in Final Fantasy you're going to have to be a bit closer to naked so the adolescent boys (and perhaps a percentage of women as well) can get their titillation. Why, you ask? Oh, don't worry about that. It's my creative license and therefore immune from criticism."
And the director would have been told to go smurf himself and the woman would have stormed out of the studio.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlewbro
Explain to me how Cidney's role somehow changes or diminishes from being able to wear pants and not have her tits hanging out for everyone to see? What is the purpose of her outfit as it is now other than the bleeding obvious?
Yeah... none of those excuses holds up to legitimate critical thinking. The only excuse, and not even a viable excuse, is that its eye candy. And the fact that some women may enjoy it is merely a coincidence. It's eye candy for men. Just like the rest of the entertainment industry. And if we could rant and rave and change their tune, we probably would. But we don't care about make-up or clothes. A lot of us don't even care about television or movies. What we do care about is video games. And if we can make enough noise to FIX our favorite past time, we most certainly will. And are attempting it at least. It's not like its just on this forum. Discussions like this are happening all over the internet, about almost every game that comes out these days. Developers are under a lot of scrutiny to open their eyes and their minds and get over their unconscious sexualization in portrayals of women. Hell, even outside of that, they're under a lot of pressure to make more than just back seat characters in general. Characters that pass the bechdel test are still important, and still kinda rare sometimes
http://i.imgur.com/5GPA6.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by jlewbro
http://media.giphy.com/media/1446KeT2YkW2RO/giphy.gifQuote:
Ok, peeps, this is turning into a gif-off.
Back on track.
What about these new rumors coming in from SE that Cidney is actually a hermaphrodite?
Source?
I'm not saying that to be jerky, I actually want to read it.
Due to the unique nature of Square Enix, I can't determine if chionos is joking or not.
I had not considered such a thing, but now I feel foolish :colbert:
https://33.media.tumblr.com/e14870e8...z72xo1_500.gif
Oh smurf that was worth it.
I'm sorry, wife. I didn't mean for you to get caught up in this trap. You try to get one over on the world and all you do is hurt the ones you love. I'm so sorry.
Still worth it.
I'm realizing too late that I totally should have ran with this. I should have written a very serious article with out of context quotes from SE and tried to see how far I could run with it. I'm so smurfing disappointed with myself.
It's not too late. Quick, before anyone else sees your post!
But I would know, ToriJ. I would know, and that's what matters.
Cid
Always has a penis
Always
Even when he has a vagina, he still has a penis. After all, it's called FANTASY.
Is the penis safely tucked away in the vagina?
And I think this topic has now ran its course.