The reasons why FFVII gamers can choose to ignore The Compilation if they wish

Like I said, some people are blinded because they can't handle more then one type of canon - the official one. Honestly, I don't know why I bother discussing this with you anymore. If Square Enix announced something stupid like "Final Fantasy VII: Drunken Party at The Gold Saucer Edition" is up next, you would have considered in canon because it was official (judging by your posts). Still, I'll try one more time...

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CONCESSION ACCEPTED.

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Well I can't decide anything no, because I don't work for SE and so I can't provide you with any official information. Does that mean people can't see anything for themselves these days?

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No. You have already invalidated your argument. STOP TALKING.

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You don't get the point alright.

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Which they cannot do, not being SE, and thus not having the power to do.

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You don't have to be SE in order to contribute with some information based on common sense.

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YES IT CAN.

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NO IT CAN'T. I'll even tell you why. THERE ARE PLOT HOLES IN THERE.

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No. Fanon is you saying there is a choice. THERE ISN'T.

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At least make an attempt at getting my point before adding an answer to that quote.

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And since their cases are different, one should not expect their situations to be perfectly alike.

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I haven't said that either.

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So was Star Wars Episode IV. Lucas still retconned it. We don't get to decide which version of 4 is the "one true version". George says "This one is", and we have to go "Okay, then...".

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Since i don't know anything about Star Wars, I don't know how that went.

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They are a for profit company.

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Yes.

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Argument boiled down to simple statements: Because FF7 was complete, you don't have to accept the compilation. This is a non sequitor.

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Yeah right :eep: . Like if I haven't presented you with numerous arguments already. This is a quick way of explaining it, it goes together with my other arguments.

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The purpose of FFVII was to reel in money. SE sells us a product. That's expected.

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I referred to the fact that they are milking the concept. I've already answered this question so why do I get this feeling you haven't read my posts too well :rolleyes2 ?

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But this does NOT mean that they can decide what is and is not part of the story. You can ignore all sorts of the story and make up random crap like Cloud and Aerith having spirit sex on the side of the highway. People do. However, and this is the important part, THIS HAS NO BEARING ON THE CANON. These people have created their own FANON, and that's what you've been blathering on about for two pages now.

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There are a lot of fanon out there, yes. However I've already told you several times why this isn't. You just don't notice because you don't think there is the slightest possibility of official being wrong. And in one way that's true. The Compilation is canon because it's official. Still, try catching my point and see there are two versions of FFVII, even if SE don't say so. After all, they haven't denied it either. You don't have to be Einstein to tell, you just don't notice because like I said, some go blind when facing this kind of information :tongue: .

I haven't forgotten you Mirage :p !

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In the compilation they're correcting things that weren't properly translated or portrayed in the original game, and specifying particular "dodgy" events in the main game.

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Unfortunately they don't. Like I stated in my first post SE don't just add fillers, they alter the original script. They're providing us with retcon in other words.

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Originally Posted by Charcoal

Like I said, some people are blinded because they can't handle more then one type of canon - the official one.

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That's the only type of canon there IS. That's the entire point of the term.

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Honestly, I don't know why I bother discussing this with you anymore. If Square Enix announced something stupid like "Final Fantasy VII: Drunken Party at The Gold Saucer Edition" is up next, you would have considered in canon because it was official (judging by your posts).

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If it was part of the overall continuity of FF7, then yes, it would be within the canon. I wouldn't necessarily like it being there, but my whim, nor your whim, cannot change what is in the canon.

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Still, I'll try one more time...

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Try all you like. The fact of the matter is that by the nature of what a 'canon' is, all retcons SE makes are part of the canon.

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Well I can't decide anything no, because I don't work for SE and so I can't provide you with any official information. Does that mean people can't see anything for themselves these days?

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No. But this isn't something you can 'see for yourself'. The canon is an official fiat handed down from the creators.

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You don't get the point alright.

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No. I GET the point. Your point is invalid.

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You don't have to be SE in order to contribute with some information based on common sense.

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Actually, you do have to be SE to contribute to FF7's canon. Now, if you mean "You don't have to be SE to comprehend and elucidate information based on common sense", then I would agree. This is, however, irrelevant to the topic at hand, as canon is not something you piece together.

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NO IT CAN'T. I'll even tell you why. THERE ARE PLOT HOLES IN THERE.

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Then stop smegging telling me that there are plot holes and TELL ME WHAT THESE GORRAM PLOT HOLES ARE! Most of the smegging plot holes people crow about are nothing more than strawmen! So PUT UP OR SHUT UP!

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At least make an attempt at getting my point before adding an answer to that quote.

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I get your point. My point, however, is that the entirety of what you propose is fanon.

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I haven't said that either.

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Then explain the point of bringing it up.

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Since i don't know anything about Star Wars, I don't know how that went.

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Changes to an existing work were made. The movie was changed. There is still only one canon.

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Yes.

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Meaning that everything they produce is there to rake in money. Including FF7.

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Yeah right :eep: . Like if I haven't presented you with numerous arguments already. This is a quick way of explaining it, it goes together with my other arguments.

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But none of your arguments have been substantiated yet.

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I referred to the fact that they are milking the concept. I've already answered this question so why do I get this feeling you haven't read my posts too well :rolleyes2 ?

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Because I know you haven't been reading mine, or at the very least taking the time to understand what I've been saying.

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There are a lot of fanon out there, yes. However I've already told you several times why this isn't.

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No, you've explained several times why this isn't a really valid point and i'm impressed by your thinking. of fanon. You've never told me why it isn't what fanon actually means.

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You just don't notice because you don't think there is the slightest possibility of official being wrong.

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A really valid point and i'm impressed by your thinking..

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And in one way that's true. The Compilation is canon because it's official. Still, try catching my point and see there are two versions of FFVII, even if SE don't say so.

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No. There is only one version of FF7. Anything that has been retconned has been PRUNED. It NO LONGER MATTERS. If George Lucas released a new version of Star Wars where the Death Star Exploded into billions of fish, stupid as that is, it would be canon. The previous versions would be as if they had never existed! It's the same with FF7!

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After all, they haven't denied it either. You don't have to be Einstein to tell, you just don't notice because like I said, some go blind when facing this kind of information :tongue: .

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"Because SE hasn't said 'there aren't two versions of the story' there are two canons". Errrr, no.

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Unfortunately they don't. Like I stated in my first post SE don't just add fillers, they alter the original script. They're providing us with retcon in other words.

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Which in no way changes the fact that said changes are canon.

People, when we see events playing out differently (such as Last Order's depiction of the Nibelbeim incidents as opposed to the original game's), these should be understood less as retcons and more as different depictions, or interpretations, either told from different points of view or expanded upon. Naturally, some things will be different. Retcons, however, are those major changes to the story. But things like Tifa discovering her father outside of the reactor rather than inside, Cloud stabbing Sephiroth before he turns around rather than after, Cloud being impaled twice, and Sephiroth willingly jumping into the Lifestream rather than being tossed in: these things are extremely subtle differences in narration rather than retcons.

And Han shot first, damnit! (Pretty much everything else I'm okay with.)

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

I haven't forgotten you Mirage :p !

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OOC:	Sorry, I don't quite follow...

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Originally Posted by Mirage

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

I haven't forgotten you Mirage :p !

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OOC:	Sorry, I don't quite follow...

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That was something from Charcoal. I's gonna edit it out.

Alright Ryu, you've made it clear. There is no point in discussing the matter with you. You don't believe there to be any alternative. You think there is only one canon - the official canon, and nothing I say can change your mind regarding that. We can go on until Armageddon shows up and still be at the same spot because we'll never agree on one thing - can there be more then one canon? So I'll leave the decision whether to consider The Compilation part of FFVII or not to the other readers of the topic.

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Then explain the point of bringing it up.

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Kadaj's disappearance makes sense but Grimoire Valentine's don't. Grimoire can't just suddenly disappear like that because he is a regular person. When they die, they remain. At least in the original they do. Say hello to one plot hole, there are plenty others. Of course if I put more examples up you won't believe them since they're part of The Compilation, which in your opinion is canon whether nothing but unnecessarily retcon or not.

And btw,

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"Because SE hasn't said 'there aren't two versions of the story' there are two canons". Errrr, no.

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I can't tell anyone that from any official source no, but can't people see for themselves?

First off, I actually agree with Darth. *Twitcht*

SEcond, Coal, Grimoire dissapearing, while I haven't played the game yet, Was likely for Dramatic effect. Many games things like this happen for no reason, for Dramatic effect. If it actually said his body returned to the life stream, I believe that is the extent of it.

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Originally Posted by Charcoal

Alright Ryu, you've made it clear. There is no point in discussing the matter with you. You don't believe there to be any alternative. You think there is only one canon - the official canon, and nothing I say can change your mind regarding that. We can go on until Armageddon shows up and still be at the same spot because we'll never agree on one thing - can there be more then one canon? So I'll leave the decision whether to consider The Compilation part of FFVII or not to the other readers of the topic.

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That's because he is right.

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Grimoire dissapearing, while I haven't played the game yet, Was likely for Dramatic effect. Many games things like this happen for no reason, for Dramatic effect. If it actually said his body returned to the life stream, I believe that is the extent of it.

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Probably. Still, was a bit of dramatic effect worth making a plot hole for :p ? Besides, in FFVII corpses fade - and so return to the lifestream - slowly over time. They don't just suddenly disappear like in FFX. Their spirit energy disppears yes, but not the carcass.

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That's because he is right.

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Since neither Ryu nor I can provide you with any proof of what we say you'll just have to make up your own opinion. If you think I'm wrong, then be it, everyone got to make up their own opinion some times and not believe in everything they're told :) .

let me try to apply some of charcoals reasoning into some examples outside of "Star Wars"... by his logic anything added to or ammended to a previous writing should be discarded or ignored as false and/or useless, as the original was good enough... let's apply this to law, as a US citizen i'll use our Bill of Rights as an example, by his logic all the ammendments to the Bill of Rights should not be followed or observed since they were added after the original draft, so by this logic all non-WMA's (White Mlae Americans) have no rights, i personaly don't like this outcome and prefer it ammended... now lets apply this to religion, basic christianity, the New Testament should be ignored because it was written after the Old Testament and even goes against and contradicts some things written in the Old Testament, once again i don't like this outcome, i'd prefer to believe God is Love rather than God is Vengance... now from this perspective i find it hard to believe that anyone would want to change things that were changed for the better, or to clarify things, back to their original state, regression in other words, it makes no sense... and Darth A. did make a valid point that i was thinking over myself earlier, these stories (FF VII Compilation) are told from different characters POV, if you and i told the same story to the same person at different times i'm positive there will be differances in the stories, as there are 3 sides to every story, yours, mine, and the truth, of course the more storytellers you add the more differances in their stories you will notice...

Let me quote myself:

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I don't claim retcon is necessarily a bad thing, if a story needs some improvements, retcon might be what restoring it. FFVII however never needed such treatment, only reason FFVII ever got retcon in it is because Square Enix reel in on that.

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FFVII has only become retcon because the whole concept is being milked. Some of us would prefer that not happening, and yes, in most cases that would result in fanon. My arguments are not fanon though, because they don't remove The Compilation. The point I'm trying to describe here is although The Compilation has arrived, that doesn't erase the original game and so there are two versions of FFVII. Whether this is true or not you'll have to decide for yourself because this information isn't official. That doesn't mean you can't try to see for yourself however. You have to make up your own opinion, because there don't exist any proof on either case.

so let me see if i'm understanding this, in essence you are boycotting the Compilation because, you think S-E has no right to make money off of their own license, because you thaught the story was over and complete when you finished the "Meteorfall" portion of the story... the "Metoeorfall chapter" was indeed finished but the story was far from complete as that chapter was told mostly from Clouds point of view, there are other characters as well you know, it's not all just Cloud and god forbid we hear the versions told by Aerith & Zack, Tiffa, Barret, & Denzil, or even Vincent, Reeve, or Tseng... is that what you're getting at? you only want to see it from one point of view and damn any other characters perspective on the issue? not to mention the events that happen 2&3 years after Meteorfall, those don't exist either as S-E has no right to use their own liscense to try to entertain you again, conversly making money in the process, cuz we all know companies exist to serve our whims and not make a dime in the meantime...

I know different characters have different perspectives. The Compilation isn't only based on those though and so mistakes are made. I don't boycott The Compilation because FFVII didn't need any; I ignore it due to us having a choice. Why that is I've explained several times already. There is no proof on either side and so people have to make up their own opinion.

I get the feeling I'm about to get very repetative due to that something is always forgotten >.<...

About Grimoire dissapearing, his dead wasn't normal. He was "poisoned" by Stagnant Lifestream(SL). We still don't know what SL exactly is, so SE can create an explanation(in CC or "DoC-2") of why SL make people dissapear. This is not a plot-hole.
And remember that Nero can use it to make people "dissapear"(send them to another dimension).

And miraculously enough we never heard anything about this SL in the original game *cough*plothole*cough*. In FFVII people can't just disappear like that. Unless you accept the retcon that is. And normally you have to do that, but not in this case. Again I (quickly) repeat the reasons why, FFVII has only been made retcon due to milking, SE has never denied that there may be two versions of FFVII because of the plot holes and FFVII was a finished story where nothing needed further explaining. Again there is no proof of either case and so every FFVII player have to decide for themselves, again the point of the topic.