The morality of XII is flawed - Spoilers - my rant

^indeed, and i realize that alot of our posts have reflected that. In many ways this is "the game that never was" but at the same time I feel calling that is a little cheap because this really is a remarkable work in the medium of videogames, and its significance will increase as the years go on and new Final Fantasys are released.

I guess another point that really struck me this playthrough is how Vossler is just left on the Shiva to die, I think that hits home to me the most about Renmiri's point of this thread. One of his last words is "Everything I've done, I've done for Dalmasca", and despite him just facing and reavealed to have betrayed the party, you have to really admire and sympathize for him. At the same time, the party might not have known that the entire thing was about to blow, but the threadstarter's point still remains that no one of the party showed any remorse about this, nor is he remembered later on. Not even by Basch, which I found most perplexing.

On my second playthrough, I'm really starting to appreciate the scale and meaning of this game, story very much included. Unfortunately, there still are important things missing, lamentably, but it's important for us to accept the good and the bad when evaluating games and their stories, especially a work as important as Final Fantasy XII.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

I guess another point that really struck me this playthrough is how Vossler is just left on the Shiva to die,... no one of the party showed any remorse about this, nor is he remembered later on. Not even by Basch, which I found most perplexing.

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Yeah, I had forgotten about that but that bothered me too at the time.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

...alot of our posts have reflected that. In many ways this is "the game that never was" but at the same time I feel calling that is a little cheap because this really is a remarkable work in the medium of videogames, and its significance will increase as the years go on and new Final Fantasys are released.

On my second playthrough, I'm really starting to appreciate the scale and meaning of this game, story very much included. Unfortunately, there still are important things missing, lamentably, but it's important for us to accept the good and the bad when evaluating games and their stories, especially a work as important as Final Fantasy XII.

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Agreed wholeheartedly! I would even say that is the game's success that makes me more picky: some parts of XII have such incredible detail it is obvious it was designed very carefully with a lot of thought and attention put into it, like the battle system, the graphics, the bestiary monsters, the bestiary cards, the world geography... Makes me want the same richness of design and thoughtful process spent on the rest :(

But I've made my peace with the game. It was a great game, just not "perfect for Renmiri" and Square was brave to challenge their own rules of game making.

But next time Square, please keep it simple and go with tradition ? Pretty please ? ;)

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Originally Posted by Renmiri

After Sin is defeated and falls you see Gagazet and other areas. And a major plot of X-2 was the Guado massacre of the Ronso and their decision to take revenge or not. There is no such thing on Revenant Wings.

And yes, the game made it perfectly clear that Ashe's sole concern was her dead husband. Although in two of the best lines in the game she shows a bit more depth:

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In all of Dalmasca long years of history it has never used the Dawn Shard, this is the Dalmasca I want to preserve

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and

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The Rassler I knew would not want revenge

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I think the problem goes back to the fact the main writer had to leave mid stream. The Bur Omisace plot was left too open, after the story going into pains to show how much misery they received for aiding the team it felt very unfair / amoral. If I was writing it I would have made Bergan just get Larsa and go meet the team at Miriam. There was no need to attack the refugee camp.

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The scene in question from FFX is a brief scene that never answers the question of whither the Ronso are alright. We see the survivors and nothing more. The story was left to be resolved in a sequel it was not finished within it's original storlyine is my point. Though I doubt RW will touch upon it, I do feel XII will probably get the multi sequel treatment eventually.

As for Ashe I feel she is one of the most complex characters to come out of the series. The main thing that set her apart from most main heroines is that she was not written to be likeable. We understand where she comes from in her thinking but we don't necessarily agree with her. Her story is the "human element" of XII IMHO.

As for Burimasce being left too open, you speak as though it had some remaining plot significance. I fail to see how writing about the glorious resurrection of the temple through the aide of foreign powers; would have been relevant to the story of a rag tag group of warriors trying to prevent a massive war that threatens to destroy what is important to them.

I feel the point of the scene was to show not only the brutality of Vayne's regime but to establish to the player the importance of the parties goal to stop Vayne. The point of the attack though was to stop the Kiltias from announcing the return of Ashe as the rightful heir of Dalmasca. That and to prove the point that any thoughts of dissention and revolt will be dealt with. It's a common tactic in politics to help solidify rule and power. This is especially useful to Vayne who acquired his power through treachery. At least this seems like the logic behind it all.

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Originally Posted by Shattered Dreamer

Just was thinking about what everyone was saying about parts of the plot being forgot about & such & just thought doesn't that make the story of FFXII more like life. When its over you probably still won't have the answer.

I think the final FMV features the refugees on Bur Omisace briefly. Just think maybe the Kiltians hadnt found their leader yet even though I sorta though the Veira living on Bur Omisace would have been picked especially after the she acts helping all the refugees after you defeat the hunt Fafnir. Plus what about Fran's sister wanting to leave the wood that wasn't fully resolved either. I guess FFXII story really is like life sometimes little details become unimportant to the grand scheme of things.

But in saying that as a FF fan I was disappointed stuff like this was glossed over. Hey if they had of given us these little bits of info maybe we wouldnt of argued about how weak the main plot is in places.

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I agree that XII's plot feels more like real life in the vein that things don't end up neatly nor is life fair or just. But I too am disappointed with certain ascpects of the story as well, but mostly I feel the good outweighs the bad in my opinion. I think the game is amazing and I get the feeling that it will be a few years down the road before people begin to really see this.

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Originally Posted by WritinginaRedState

Well see, the other games in the series left out things without being as detrimental to the plot as does with Final Fantasy XII (in my opinion). I would think it hard to use the more real argument because all of the games had those moments. I don't think "being vague" automatically qualifies as being life-like. I mean, in X, a religion that the whole world put its faith in turned out to be a corrupt evil entity. While the bad guy was beaten, there was still pain, heartache, all VERY real emotions. Heck I cried during the final scene. You see that not everything comes out good.
Relationships with so much potential never come to fruition in FF8, but you see the potential in them, and you want them to succeed. You want those people to be happy.

I saw none of that in XII. I could almost see potential between Ashe and Balthier. Heck, if they had carried that further I would be more satisfied. I just don't think people can be together through all that and just "drift apart" and Penelo so elegantly stated. I thought there was a nice attempt at trying to flesh characters out, but I don't think they quite made it.

This game had SO much potential and wastes it by being vague about important things. I believe that if Matsuno hadn't left we would have seen a very different game.

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I agree that Matsuo staying on would have made this game quite different and possibly more amazing (I also know we would probably still be waiting for it. The man does not know the word restraint) I remember hearing that the job class system was going to be used and we already know from the special edition trailer that the gambits were far more complexed originally. I do wonder how the story and characters were truly affected by his departure.

It seems to me like you feel XII has a lack of emotional elements to it. I'll admit the game is the most subdued in the series but I feel the emotion is still there.

I could always relate to Basch's pride as he spoke up for his beliefs even though everyone treated him like dirt. I could also feel the conflict with the Occurians but this is due to my stances on freedom and it's importance to me. I hate to say it but I really did actually connect to the cast as a whole. I can relate to everyone of them on some level.

I really did like the reconciliation between Basch and Noah, it was a powerful scene IMO. Hell Ashe's scene where she finally makes her choice in the Pharos is one of the most powerful scenes in the game.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

^indeed, and i realize that alot of our posts have reflected that. In many ways this is "the game that never was" but at the same time I feel calling that is a little cheap because this really is a remarkable work in the medium of videogames, and its significance will increase as the years go on and new Final Fantasys are released.

I guess another point that really struck me this playthrough is how Vossler is just left on the Shiva to die, I think that hits home to me the most about Renmiri's point of this thread. One of his last words is "Everything I've done, I've done for Dalmasca", and despite him just facing and reavealed to have betrayed the party, you have to really admire and sympathize for him. At the same time, the party might not have known that the entire thing was about to blow, but the threadstarter's point still remains that no one of the party showed any remorse about this, nor is he remembered later on. Not even by Basch, which I found most perplexing.

On my second playthrough, I'm really starting to appreciate the scale and meaning of this game, story very much included. Unfortunately, there still are important things missing, lamentably, but it's important for us to accept the good and the bad when evaluating games and their stories, especially a work as important as Final Fantasy XII.

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I agree this game is truly groundbreaking and very important to the FF series as a whole. I doubt many would agree but I think XII truly set the bar on what an RPG is suppose to be. The amount of detail and depth to the game is truly amazing.

As for Vossler, I do find it sad that they don't reflect upon this scene a little more. It's one of many moments that shows that XII was definetly more story driven than character driven like the last few installments.Vossler is a perfect example of a man who is neither truly good nor evil. In the end he was only human.

XII is a wonderful game but I agree it's far from perfect.

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Originally Posted by Renmiri

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

I guess another point that really struck me this playthrough is how Vossler is just left on the Shiva to die,... no one of the party showed any remorse about this, nor is he remembered later on. Not even by Basch, which I found most perplexing.

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Yeah, I had forgotten about that but that bothered me too at the time.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

...alot of our posts have reflected that. In many ways this is "the game that never was" but at the same time I feel calling that is a little cheap because this really is a remarkable work in the medium of videogames, and its significance will increase as the years go on and new Final Fantasys are released.

On my second playthrough, I'm really starting to appreciate the scale and meaning of this game, story very much included. Unfortunately, there still are important things missing, lamentably, but it's important for us to accept the good and the bad when evaluating games and their stories, especially a work as important as Final Fantasy XII.

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Agreed wholeheartedly! I would even say that is the game's success that makes me more picky: some parts of XII have such incredible detail it is obvious it was designed very carefully with a lot of thought and attention put into it, like the battle system, the graphics, the bestiary monsters, the bestiary cards, the world geography... Makes me want the same richness of design and thoughtful process spent on the rest :(

But I've made my peace with the game. It was a great game, just not "perfect for Renmiri" and Square was brave to challenge their own rules of game making.

But next time Square, please keep it simple and go with tradition ? Pretty please ? ;)

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The only consistant tradition in Final Fantasy is innovation.;) What were you thinking of?

But I do hope that SE has learned from XII. If XIII has the same level of depth and work gone into it's world, I may be able to overlook Mecha Shiva... and the fact that it looks like a cheesey, Matrix inspired, wannabe kung-fu, sci-fi, action flick with plenty of explosions and cutscenes to make me relish the days when games were simply games and not mini-interactive movies.:rolleyes2

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

it looks like a cheesey, Matrix inspired, wannabe kung-fu, sci-fi, action flick with plenty of explosions and cutscenes to make me relish the days when games were simply games and not mini-interactive movies.:rolleyes2

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you have an uncanny ability to sum up an entire game in one sentence.

I think it looks like THA :skull::skull::skull::skull:!!!

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

it looks like a cheesey, Matrix inspired, wannabe kung-fu, sci-fi, action flick with plenty of explosions and cutscenes to make me relish the days when games were simply games and not mini-interactive movies.:rolleyes2

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you have an uncanny ability to sum up an entire game in one sentence.

I think it looks like THA :skull::skull::skull::skull:!!!

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It's a gift;)

To each their own I guess :p

The trailer really rubbed me the wrong way, also throw in the fact that this team's last few games they've done I felt were pretty terrible (X and X-2). But that's only my personal opinion.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

...the fact that this team's last few games they've done I felt were pretty terrible (X and X-2). But that's only my personal opinion.

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Infidel!!!! :eep: :mog: :choc2:

*gerun (occuria) voice*

KANNO IS A HERETIC!!!

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Originally Posted by Renmiri

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

...the fact that this team's last few games they've done I felt were pretty terrible (X and X-2). But that's only my personal opinion.

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Infidel!!!! :eep: :mog: :choc2:

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

*gerun (occuria) voice*

KANNO IS A HERETIC!!!

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:p

No, seriously, if Kitase, Nojima, and Nomura promised me that this game wouldn't be anything like X (story structure, pacing, chartacterization, and ratio of story to gameplay) , I would probably get a little more excited about this game.

The plot info is intriguing but the screenshots and recent info ("guy with big feet" that's relevant information why?, MECHA SHIVA!) keep destroying any positive expectations I might of have. I'm taking the skeptical route until I play the game for myself.

Seeing as I've been away for several weeks (:skull::skull::skull::skull: tastic floods), I'll just say this:

1. You got owned love.
2. Missed you <3
3. Staying around helping them and whatnot - er, what's it going to achieve? What's more important - hanging around, and trying to stop impending war as fast as they can? No time to really hang around~

I'm sure this has already been covered buttt..eh XD

Did someone post that the FFXII plot was a bowl of emptiness smothered in nothing? Cuz I don't want to double post if someone already said it.

I've made this claim before, about how this game was not made with heart.

Now no one may have understood what I meant, but this game seems -extremely- stiff and emotionless. -Yes- they do act like they have -some- kind of emotion, but it's normally put forth when something bad has happened to the -characters- and not really something that they may have seen or done that really has other association that something like "they were just convienently there at the time, so we have no real point on caring, we have things to do".

Other FF games if they walked into an ALREADY destroyed town the characters would be like "omg, what happened here" and normally there would be that one person in the party to suggest to find someone to find out more, which normally entails their want to help because they care and such.

I don't believe this game was made with the heart that the other ones were in, where you can actually connect with the characters in some human way as you could with the chara's of other games. I'm fearing that FFXIII may be like that too. :(

I kinda agree. Someone close to them died, they mourn for a few seconds then forget about them for the rest of the game(excluding Rasler, of course).

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Originally Posted by Avarice-ness

I'm fearing that FFXIII may be like that too. :(

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I hope not.

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Originally Posted by Avarice-ness

I've made this claim before, about how this game was not made with heart.

Now no one may have understood what I meant, but this game seems -extremely- stiff and emotionless. -Yes- they do act like they have -some- kind of emotion, but it's normally put forth when something bad has happened to the -characters- and not really something that they may have seen or done that really has other association that something like "they were just convienently there at the time, so we have no real point on caring, we have things to do".

Other FF games if they walked into an ALREADY destroyed town the characters would be like "omg, what happened here" and normally there would be that one person in the party to suggest to find someone to find out more, which normally entails their want to help because they care and such.

I don't believe this game was made with the heart that the other ones were in, where you can actually connect with the characters in some human way as you could with the chara's of other games. I'm fearing that FFXIII may be like that too. :(

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well i do have to agree it dos seem liek all the characters are rather heartless. but the way i see it is they all have there own problems that just outway the death of people they dont know. i knwo thats a very heartless self centered statement but thats kinda how they were portrayed to be. and the onyl reason why this doesnt really bother me is because they are in a war when someone is killed you ahve to keep moveing or you could be next. the onyl characters who should ahve been mourning too much anyways is ashe and basche. ashe is supposed to be fighting to revive her kingdom and save the people in it. basche is a knight of her kingdom and should feel the same. balthier is a wanted man he's jsut in this because well he doesnt like archadia very much. fran is an exile and partner to balthier. vaan and panelo are just kids. they act like kids. vaan is going for revenge where panelo jsut seems like shes there for vaan and because she sees good in larsa.

i do agree that they were a little heartless but for the most part it seemed rather justified, not so much for ashe though but she never really struck me as the nicest character anyways.

I've heard FFXIII is going to be really dark and miserable. :(

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Originally Posted by Timerk

Did someone post that the FFXII plot was a bowl of emptiness smothered in nothing? Cuz I don't want to double post if someone already said it.

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Read my last 500 posts :p