Surprised this hasn't devolved into fist fights...
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Originally Posted by
Bolivar
Wow, still alot of stuff goin on here, like Mullet said, 90% of it is pretty damn good, one of the best debates i've seen in the FF game forums in a minute...
First I just wanna clear somethin up
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Originally Posted by
Wolf Kanno
Now you mistake my sentiments about FFVII as blind fanboy jealousy but it can equally be argued that your thoughts about the other games in the series in comparison to your beloved VII is the same thing. You just can't let any other game be better than it or be told that it did it first. So your point is moot. I don't hate VII, is it overrated? hell yes but I would even throw in my beloved VI as overrated. I can see that VI isn't perfect can you for VII?
Nah man, please don't misinterpret me as saying those things. I
don't consider you, Mullet, Avarice, Boko, (well, I think Boko's had alot of negative influence) as being fanboys, because you all come in here and give solid reasons for your beliefs. But I think there's a little bias in there, just like i'll gladly admit that I have alot of bias in that this game really changed my view on games, and raised the bar for what it takes for a game to satisfy me.
But my point is, please, don't think i'm downplaying your arguments to jelous or fanboyism, i really think this is a great debate.
Same here actually I just wanted to make this all clear;) I just needed to make sure that I wasn't debating with the usual VII fans. It's rare to have a good logical argument with someone who has a genuine and logical love for something.
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First off, Kanno, you mistook what I said, my whole "history of the CD console" was NOT about Sega Saturn, it was about the SEGA CD. It was an add on to the Sega Genesis, and like I said, it was the first, or the first mainstream attempt at a disc-based console system. If you go back and look at those games, they TRULY WERE interactive movies,were you make really small decisions in an almost text-based format and then a mini movie will play until you make your next choice. This was one of the first ways in which game developers tackled the possibilities of disc games.
My point should follow, that squaresoft looked at this strategy, then looked at PSX games, which were mostly either large or long games w/ few or manditory cut scenes, FFVII used both at just the right porportions and gave birth to the modern video game. THAT'S REVOLUTIONARY. Do you disagree?
I don't disagree that the Sega CD brought out this phenomenon of pacing, but it can be argued that all storybased RPGs even dating back to the NES days followed this format. Replace movie scenes with ingame sprites moving with text playing and you get the same phenomenon. As I stated before (and this I believe we can both agree on) is that cutscenes were created in order to make a much more dramatic and dynamic basis to tell a compelling story. Both VI and CT could be cited as early experiments to this eventual conclusion.
On a technological front, I can agree that VII did alot for the series.
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Also, once again, I have to say that comparing how revolutionary the previous FF games were to FFVII is unplausible and rediculous. If you take all the first 6 FF's together in one group and compare them to VII, you'll see that the differences between those games, although they seemed great at the time, are extremely miniscule compared to the differences to VII. In that sense, FFI is less revolutionary than FFVII because you can throw DragonQuest and the other NES RPG's into that category and still see that the differences between those games and VII is still massive whereas in comparison the differences among them are like baby steps. The word REVOLUTIONARY implies change, drastic change, and it's hard to argue that VII didn't provide that.
Whoa there, I feel you are seriously downplaying the series and failing to see that VII is nothing more than an accumilation of many games before it rather than some intellectual leap in thinking. Personally if IV and VI were redesigned with the same level of technology; one could easily see that the games are easily on equal standing.
You fail to remember that the previous games suffer from technology limitaions and yet their abilty to remain endearing after so much has come after them is truly a wonderful testament to the quality of these games. VII also has these qualities even though much better things have come since it's release. Its not just simple nostalgia or sentimentailty that makes them endearing, these games were well designed and many of them touched us in a way that we never felt possible.
I can tell you the moment that VI became more than just a "good RPG" to me, the first time I played through the opera scene, I stopped and asked myself, "Is this really simply a game?. Now logically speaking yes but the scene had such a profound affect on me that it changed my way of viewing games in general. Only MGS, Xenogears, and FFT will ever be able to pull off something as profound for me.
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Goldenboko, about our argument on deep, I agree with what you're saying 100%, FFVI is is a very emotionally moving game. I'm a young man, but I'm not afraid to admit that there are a few FF's that made me cry/want to cry, and VI is one of those games. But My whole point about the the writing and the deepness of it is to illustrate the REVOLUTIONARY change that it provided. Social Commentary is something that was absent from video games, at least in the popular sphere, especially dealing with it philosophically and eruditely (is this a word?) like FFVII did, so I consider that to be VERY revolutionary. VI also (and i realize that this is not your favorite) dealt with many issues, but I think it was VII that brought them to the forefront because it dealt with so many different things, environmental issues, the effects of science and technology, militarism, nationalism, capitalism, cultural conflict and resistance, and while VI and previous games may have touched on these things, they were only able to do just that - touch on them. VII brought them to the forefront and added an artistic credibility that isn't present in previous games and THAT'S REVOLUTIONARY.
You forget a little gem of a game called Chrono Trigger. CT did more than touch upon the subjects of honor, patriotism, eviromentalism, militarism, racial hatred, and the subject of owning up to ones mistakes. As I stated before, had I never played this game before VII i could see how it could be percieved as profound. Even then, Xenogears is a game that touched on more adult themes and explored them far better than anythig the FF series has been able to produce. VII comes off pretty shallow when compared to Xenogears and is at least equal to CT in regards to storytelling and plot.
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There's more to say, but I would address Kanno again, the key here is change, and you say that IV and II also set the bar for RPG's, but how drastic is that compared to VII? After Final Fantasy VII I witnessed entire sub-genres of RPG's die out. Before that game there were many different systems and battle systems that RPG's employed, but after this the genre almost became synonymous for menu-command and turn-based battle, in one way or another, many RPGs that follow emulating FFVII's ATB system. Strategy RPGs were my favorite kind of RPG due to everything that was built in to them, and after FFVII, I saw this artform completely disappear off the market. Except for Final Fantasy Tactics, which to me was the last hurrah for the sub-genre, and I would agree with you in many ways when you said that FFT is probably the best work in the series, but that's another debate.
I have 9 minutes to eat lunch before my next class so i gotta jet, i'll check up on this later.
Glad we agreed on Tactics at least but I'm surprised you can't see what II and IV did to the series. II brought forth the emphasis of storytelling in RPGs. Before it all RPGs were quests where you name a party and send them to right the wrongs of the land. II brought forth a cohesive tale where your party is actually saving the world cause it matters to them. Considering how after FFII just about every RPG now featured more personal stories is a testament to it's impact on the genre.
IV expands upon this notion by being the first game with a fully fleshed out cast of characters. You no longer just have your party of job classes you picked out and named, they are characters who are predetermined and have reasons and motives. IV could be thought of as inevitable leap since technology prevented this kind of storytelling on the NES but IV is often cited as the game that brought the focus of RPGs to storytelling and characters.
As for VII wiping out sub genres, I feel you are quite mistaken. SRPGs are alive and well and you forget that Vandal Hearts and Front Mission III were also released for the PS1 as well as a collection of other less known SRPGs. Action RPGs were barely affected with Brave Fencer Musashi, Threads of Fate, and Vagrant Story leading the way.
Yes alot of companies turned to the ATB system but it was solely to cash in on the RPG craze that VII had created. Even then other games had used ATB before VII while many still don't use it. Most of the games that tried to follow the VII formula failed and even Square (though I'm probably giving them more credit than they deserve) seemed to know that VII was a fluke. They knew they "caught lightning", not that they made some "magic bullet" or "magic blueprint" for making great games. VII was a game that was just the acculmination of everything before. It was with VIII they truly tried to revolutionize the rpg genre.
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Originally Posted by
Heath
I think the main way the game revolutionised the series was by introducing it to a wider audience. To my knowledge, none of the previous Final Fantasy games actually got a European release (Wikipedia certainly doesn't give any release dates for European versions of FFI, FFIV and FFVI). In a way, I'd say the game revolutionised how people viewed RPGs and the audience itself to as large (if not larger) extent than the series itself. Though FFVII has, obviously had some noticeable effects upon the Final Fantasy series itself.
This is true and another thing people fail to remember. VII recieved a larger release than any other RPG before it and VII also had a greater Ad campaign than any game brfore it. It was exposed to a larger audiance which is why it has a larger audiance than most games. The fact that ealier titles and cult games like Xenogears and Disgaea have sold so well despite little PR can be interpreted to the notion that the quality of VII was not the major contributing factor to it's success.
Now I'm certain you will have a lot to say on my point and I look forward to it. This really is a quality debate;)
