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Oh lord, where to begin...
You really should quit while you're behind.
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Heart of Worlds, where hearts gather, Proof of Life... oh yeah these define KH so well and tells us everything it can and can't be.
Notice how none of those even suggest "world." You're only saying "well it could be a world because there's nothing that says it isn't." Remember my other example? It also doesn't define KH as a Heartless, the same way it doesn't define it as a World.
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Funny, I can say the same thing about your argument.
You're not able to at all. You made the claim, thus you need to back it up first, or it automatically fails.
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Like your baseless claim is any better?
At least I'm not the one that's using nearly all of my argument on just calling doubt to the other person's points while the rest of my argument also uses not 100% correct points.
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Mine explains what happened to KHoM after Xemnas is defeated
Mine explains what happened to KHoW after Xemnas is defeated.
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Xemnas' dialogue supports my idea since he is speaking to KHoM directly in a manner that only suits the context of the situation for KHoM
But it doesn't, refer to the whole "completely" deal.
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and why we never see Xemnas summon KHoW.
We do see him do so, regardless of you ignoring what's right in front of your face.
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You say he magically did all this cause KH could only be in the Realm of Darkness.
An KH is in the Realm of Darkness, according to the game.
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Notice this is the first set of definitions as opposed to the the third you chose.
Notice how you're using the noun form of "ruin" as opposed to the verb form of ruin and "My Kingdom Hearts is ruined by Ansem."
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Notice how your set of definitions are a bit different from the rest.
Notice how this doesn't stop me from being right, nor does it help you say that it definitely means "NOT completely destroyed."
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I love how you completely ignore the other definitions and only mention the one that supports your theory and treat it like its the only true definition for the word.
Hypocrisy at its finest.
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The other problem with your argument is that a person can say they "ruined a cake" but that does not mean the cake is "completely destroyed". Its still there and it can still be eaten, its just not going to taste very good if at all.
That's not using the word correctly then. I know that at least the word "destroyed" or a synonym is in the verb form of "ruined."
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We actually see the remains of KHoM so its far from "completely destroyed" since it should have been wiped from existence had it truly been. Yet there it is at the Altar of Naught...
You see what's left from KHoW and KHoM being combined - KHoM...which = KHoW.
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Hollow Bastion was plunged into Darkness by Xehanort and the End of the World (which is not an official In-Between world) also appears to be a heavily influenced by darkness.
This is KH2, not KH1 you know. Not that your point even matters, since you've said nothing here that says the hearts went to TWTNW.
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Besides, you ignore my first statement which is whether Xemnas gathered them to him.
The answer to this is incredibly obvious that I shouldn't even have to bother.
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If Hearts return to Darkness, and from Nomura has said about the Worlds In Between would that not suggest Hearts would have to travel through TWTNW even if through a Dark Corridor?
No, considering that Sora and friends managed to go from Hollow Bastion (Realm of Light) directly to the Realm of Darkness by Malef's Dark Corridor...
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If he's strong enough or has the means to gather them, whose to say he needs to have KH in the Realm of Darkness. We only assume cause KHoW is in the Realm of Darkness and Saix said hearts return to darkness.
That's still two more reasons that my assumptions have than what your assumptions have...which are even more assumptions.
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Just like you have really nothing on him pulling KHoW from the Realm of Darkness.
Because he fused with "KH" and there's only 1 KH left.
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Wait a minute... now you are just going into circular reasoning at this point.
I was wondering when you'd try and accuse me of doing what you've been doing since your first few posts, and in every other post you made.
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He can't use KHoM cause by your words its "completely destroyed" but he can use its power (which you say is "completely destroyed") to summon KHoW to him?
KHoW was already summoned to him before KHoM was destroyed. He didn't fuse with it until after fighting one-on-one with Sora though.
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Except you have no evidence to say he couldn't do it
You're the one who propsed that hypothetical, you're the one that first needs to provide evidence that he could do it. If you can't, I don't need to do anything, because your hypothetical automatically fails in that case.
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but then you say he needed KHoM to summon it, yet you say it was "completely destroyed" by Ansem which by your definition means he couldn't use it.
He was already able to use KHoM to summon KHoW to him before it was destroyed. But he couldn't use it to gain god powers.
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Except its supposedly "completely destroyed" and yet he still summons KHoW with it...
Done before it was destroyed.
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How is it not a world? Traverse Town has the same origins as the End of the World and its a World so why can End of the World not be?
I'm not talking about EoTW. The place where the DTD is, is not EoTW, it is a random nonworld place in the Realm of In-Between.
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Which is the same baseless argument I'm making in reverse...
And like I said, this is the only thing you've got going for you that proves you're right, "because nothing says I'm wrong." But the problem is, since you made the claim that the random place in the Realm of Darkness is a world, you have to provide your own evidence first, and not just rely on "nothing proves me wrong." If you can't provide your own proof for your own claim, it automatically fails without me even needing to do anything.
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Its true I don't have a right, but neither do you have the right to say what is a world and what is not.
Um...yeah I do. I can most definitely say a Heartless is NOT a World, and neither is a Keyblade, and neither is KH or a random place in the Realm of In-between. It's only you who can't decide whatever you want IS a world. Just like how you can't define a Heartless, Keyblade, KH, or a random place in the Realm of In between is a world.
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But we never see it come to him, we only see him merge with KHoM. We never even get to see KHoW so how do we know he merged with it?
"KH of men completely destroyed, KH of World is in the Realm of Darkness, Xemnas didn't go to Realm of Darkness"
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Or you can accept that "Ruin" doesn't absolutely mean "complete destruction" thus Xemnas absorbed a broken KHoM which would explain how he lost.
Or you can try learning paying attention to the correct form of verbs used in the game and that the verb form of ruin does include "completely destroyed."
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Yeah, cause ruin doesn't always mean "completely destroyed". Course I guess he needs that "completely destroyed" KHoM to summon KHoW to him
Not when he succeeded in his goal before KHoM was destroyed.
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And your is basically, "they never said it was".
See, here's the thing. You are the one who first brought up the claim that KH is a world. Thus, you need to provide proof for your own claims before I even have to do anything. If you've got no proof as I have said (i.e. "they never said it was") then your claim automatically fails. By using your logic that you can make correct claims without providing your own proof because nothing disproves your claims, children can claim their imaginary friends exist as well by simply saying to you "you can't prove me wrong." Unless you actually believe that those children are right, neither are you.
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No, the Ansem Reports only say that Mickey visited and told Ansem about the Keyblade and made him aware of the Gummi Blocks. (Ansem Report 9 and Secret Ansem Report 2).
Gummi Blocks are made of the barriers around worlds. Guess what tore down those barriers? That's right, the Heartless!
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We don't even know if the Heartless first appear in BBS or if anyone was aware of their danger at that time. Even Ansem the Wise was not aware of how bad things had gotten until he read the Secret Ansem reports.
He read the "Ansem Reports" ~10 years ago, before his apprentices became Nobodies. And he also wrote that his apprentices created Heartless in their labs.
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They spoke about the stability of the world and worried about the Heartless but Mickey says he only noticed worlds were disappearing in his letter to Donald and Goofy, which seems to have been given to them at the start of KH1, nearly ten years later.
They only found it at the beginning of KH1, even though Mickey went to the Realm of Darkness much earlier.
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We know he hasn't been gone for very long from Disney Castle when KH1 began.
Are you joking? He talked with Xehanort, and Xehanort was last seen alive 10 years before KH1.
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If Mickey did not travel extensively in this time frame, he would have had little contact with the Heartless, especially since the Pillar of Light protects Disney Castle from the Heartless.
He's been to several worlds already. Several characters in worlds of KH1 know about him.
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Mickey's absence in KH1 was said by Nomura in the Secret Director's Report to take place mostly in the Realm of Darkness. If was wiping out Heartless, it would stand to reason they would go to KHoW rather than KHoM or just be turned back into Heartless.
No, it wouldn't. Because we know that Xemnas was indeed re-directing hearts since ~BBS.
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Yes, but its unreasonable to think they would not be aware of the events going on in KH1 and 2. Especially since the Heartless are attracted to the Keyblades. They are either hiding their Keyblades to protect themselves from the Heartless of Nobodies or are quite possible killed. Had others existed, I cannot see why Org XIII wouldn't be utilizing them like they did Roxas and Sora.
"Utilize Sora?" All they did was send Heartless at him for him to kill, and then re-direct the hearts, easily feasible with other Keybladers as well.
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Except when he reveals it in the ending with the Kingdom Key of D.
So he made himself known to like, 5 people. Wow, major!
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But if guys are killing Heartless, you would think Org. XIII would know about it. They found Sora after all.
...because Sora formed Roxas.
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It also could prove he didn't have enough yet to start making it. There is no evidence to suggest he waited to start forming KHoM when Roxas joined cause he felt like it.
You/TSOL first made the claim that they didn't have enough hearts, so therefore, you need to provide the evidence they did first, and not just "nothing says I'm wrong."
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It doesn't make logical sense to wait for a dedicated member to get you hearts before you start forming your artifical Kingdom Hearts. It instead suggest they didn't have enough Hearts yet.
"I don't like how it actually happened, so it's wrong, and nothing says my claim is wrong."
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Even if the Realm of Darkness did work exactly like the Realm of Light, once again, what is stopping all the villains from just going to the Realm of Darkness and looking for KHoW on their own? Sora was able to explore a decent section of the Realm of Light and all of the Realm of In-Between in the span of little over a year.
Because there's no way you can explore "a decent section" of an entire dimension.
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Its a world where KHoW resides with the Heartless and despite the Heartless' goal of consuming KH, they don't.
Tell that to the Darksides that you see through the DTD.
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I don't mean Dark Corridor directly, they should have had ample time to explore the Realm of Darkness in 10 years. By not even bothering with the Realm of Light, they could have all achieved their goals with no pesky Keyblade wielder to thwart their plans. Besides, Mickey found KHoW. He's right there when the DTD is open in the Realm of Darkness.
The villains don't have a Dark Realm Keyblade, though.
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Mickey doesn't have the Kingdom Key of D in BBS, we know Mickey went into the Realm of Darkness at the start of KH1 to find the key so he and Sora could seal the DTD.
Mickey knew that the Worlds were being swallowed by darkness since he talked with Xehanort ~10 years before KH1, so he went to the Realm of Darkness.
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We get two looks into the Realm of Darkness, one is a luminescent cave filled with Heartless, the other is a vast dark ocean.
That's still two more reasons that I have to support what I say than what you have.
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This is basically the same debate as the nature of KH. You have nothing that suggests it isn't the End of the World but say it isn't because no one says it was specifically the End of the World.
You're the one who first made the claim that it's in EotW, yet you've got nothing except "you can't prove me wrong" as the only thing going for you. Because you're the one that first made the claim, and because you can't provide any proof, your claim automatically fails.
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How come when I make that argument its baseless conjecture but when you make, it its perfectly acceptable.
Because you first made the claim that it's in EotW, thus you have to provide the proof for your own claim. The claim that I made in response to your original claim is right because your claim automatically fails because you couldn't first provide your own evidence. Any claim that's made (that isn't a negative statement with some form of "not") needs proof first, or the opposite claim is automatically true.
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Yeah... Remember how it also said the Dark Beach was the actual border between the Worlds of In-Between and and Realm of Darkness.
...for that particular world, where the Dark Beach was.
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TWTNW is bordered to the Realm of Darkness, the actual dividing line is the Dark Beach.
The Dark Beach is only the border for that world that it's located in.
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Except Xemnas was on the Dragon... so he apparently did have to go into the Realm of Darkness.
Except Dragon was in TWNTW, not the Realm of Darkness.
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Yes the world is, but the world could be larger than we think, the Dark Coastline being nowhere near CTNW or the Dark city suggest.
Again, the world of the Dark Beach is separate from TWTNW and the Dark Beach is only the border for that particular world.
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But you never see him summon KHoW top TWTNW.
...before Ansem destroyed the KHoM. You never see Xemnas personally re-directing hearts that Roxas and Sora released either, doesn't mean it didn't happen.
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He's talking to and being enveloped by the KHoM.
The comepletely destroyed KHoM?
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Well it must have some power if Xemnas used it to summon KHoW to him.
Which happens before it was destroyed.
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I've spoken to a lot of KH fans and you are the first one to come up with this scenario of how the ending happened in KHII. Fan sites or official sites never state anything about Xemnas summoning and merging with KHoW.
Which lets you make up anything you want, am I right?
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Saix said Hearts form KH in Darkness when left to their own devices. I don't think that constitutes as a direct reference to KHoM was forming in the Realm of Darkness, especially since we know Org.XIII was responsible for the gathering of hearts there.
Not even close to what Saix actually said. When hearts are left alone, they go back to their original bodies, wherever they may be.
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Xemnas never entered the Realm of Dark cause KHoM was in TWTNW.
No, because KHoW was there as a result of KHoM before it was destroyed.
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Once again, we don't know what Mickey was doing during that whole time and once again, Xemnas doesn't bother forming KHoM until Roxas joins the Organization in 358/2
Mickey was fighting Heartless in the Realm of Darkness, because he knew the Heartless were destroying worlds, Xemnas still began collecting hearts since BBS.
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Cause ruin obviously only has one actual definition. The other definitions there don't mean anything cause they don't support my theory.
It's funny how you're accusing me of the exact same thing that you're doing.
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But at the same time, he uses this "completely destroyed KHoM" to summon KHoW.
...which was already there for him to merge with.
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Yet I find it hard to believe that a person with such strength could fall to Sora and the others even after supposedly summoning KHoW and absorbing its power.
...because Sora and Riku are also among the top most powerful people in KH, and they outnumbered Xemnas?
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He may be powerful but I feel you are giving him greater credit than he actually deserves.
That's just what Nomura said.
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His god mode either really sucks or he never obtained the level of power some people believe he did.
He was still outnumbered by two other top most powerful people in KH.
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Like yours is any better. KHoW exists in the Realm of Darkness, Saix said KHoM is forming in the realm of darkness (which he never said)
It certainly wasn't TWTNW that Saix was talking about, leaving only one choice.
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thus it has to be there despite Xemnas walking up to it and touching it
Now I know you're making things up.
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and absorbing its "completely destroyed" power to summon the real KHoW which never actually appeared.
He didn't absorb it, KHoW was summoned before "completely destroyed," which did happen.
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Read the other definitions, if you want. It just defines it as bearing similarities to it but not being it, it looks "like" a moon as in resembles not that its treated like one. Nomura and Nojima said KHoM is "in" TWTNW.
"Like" applies to everything in the sentence afterward, including "in." Check out how the quotation marks don't just end at "moon."
Read as: "It's similar to being in TWTNW" (but not exactly in TWTNW). "Like" doesn't only apply to "a moon".
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Just because it resembles a moon does not mean it actually positioned like a moon. Planets look like stars in the night sky without a telescope but it hardly means they are the same distance.
That's not the point.
"Like":
"a moon in TWTNW"
"a star in Traverse Town"
"a train stop in Twilight Town"
All of these things are "similar" to being "in" their corresponding worlds, but that is not actually the case, because they are separate.
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All I'm suggesting is that darkness doesn't mean Realm of Darkness exclusively.
Since you see where the hearts are gathered, choices such as EotW and "Heartless" are completely crossed off. The only things left are TWTNW and the Realm of Darkness. It's not hard to guess which one is more likely, basically assuredly, mean "darkness."
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Which is apparently "completely destroyed" again? I wish you would get your story straight.
Read as: "before completely destroyed"
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you have no evidence to suggest bringing together all the hearts and forming KHoM was done by him without some form of aid.
I really don't even need any evidence. You're the one who first brought up a claim, that he needed aid, which you've yet to provide your own proof for except "you can't prove me wrong!"
Just like a kid saying that his imaginary friend exists without proof automatically fails, the same goes for you making a claim without also providing your own proof.
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Its not like we get to see pull a few million hearts out of a world at once.
We didn't actually see DiZ infiltrate The Castle that Never Was, therefore it didn't happen, right? lol
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If he had the pure power to do this by himself, once again, why would he need Org XIII?
Uh...faster? Durrrr
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Cause he can't absorb it and become a demi-god, its "completely destroyed" that would be silly, now using it to summon KHoW to him makes so much more sense since its "completely destroyed".
"Before completely destroyed"
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No it isn't. Ansem blast a whole into it and its hearts start to fall out. The KH at the top of the Altar of Naught has a hole in it and is completely unstable.
Because it's missing 1 KHoM.
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He also looks at it and says "its ruined" and then begins to talk with it. Its still the KHoM.
Yeah, he's still talking about it. About how it's completely destroyed.
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It never changes except for its size between Ansem damaging it and Xemnas absorbing it and this makes perfect sense cause we saw all those hearts spill out.
When things combine, they don't necessarily become bigger. Roxas didn't cause Sora to become bigger when he combined with him.
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If he summoned KHoW, you would think we would have gotten a light show or something cause obviously summoning the McGuffin of the game is a big deal.
"Because I don't like how it happened, it's false!"
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I used my words carefully, I said it had an influence of darkness it doesn't mean it is darkness.
I must have missed the part where Saix said "influence" then.
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Except Nojima and Nomura say its "in" TWTNW so yeah, I'd say I have the more canonical argument here.
Except Nojima and Nomura say its "like" its "in" TWTNW. If anything, what you said only helped me.
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So since KH isn't directly said to be a world or not, its now no longer a lousy argument? I love this "Do as I say, Not as I do" theory of arguing.
By your logic, everything is lousy because it's not directly said to be something else. "A Keyblade isn't directly said to be a Heartless, therefore saying a Keyblade isn't a Heartless is a lousy argument!"
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Like = similar not total agreement
In = located or situated within among other meaning that mean KHoM is actually located in TWTNW
I don't think you can get any clearer than that.
You forgot to combine "like" and "in."
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Once again, like mainly deals with appearance not properties.
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b8...5308244371.jpg
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Just because KHoM lloks like the moon doesn't mean it follows any of the same properties. This also does not change the fact that its in the world.
DI being a star to TT is almost exactly the same concept as KH being a moon to TWTNW. Whether or not they follow the properties of celestial bodies doesn't even matter, DI and TT are clearly stated to be separate worlds. KH to TWTNW also applies, minus the KH being a world part.
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What part of masterless and free did you miss in his speech? He's talking about the nature of hearts not Xemnas mad weaving skills.
He's talking about the fact that hearts are free without a body to go to, when someone gets turned into a heartless. He didn't mean "hearts are able to act on their own" at all, because they would be returning to their original bodies like the DSR states, not forming KH. I don't even see why you're bothering to argue this, you've already acknowledged that Xemnas did indeed control the hearts, and we actually see Xemnas weaving the hearts in KH2.
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Yes, cause it can be used to summon KHoW off screen!
Yeah, because believe it or not, things DO happen off screen, that the player doesn't see.
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I don't recognize that words have more than one definition and how each of them can actually be applicable.
Look who's talking.
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Except I know better, and pay attention in most cutscenes.
How unfortunate that it doesn't help you come up with any of your own proof at all.
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Sorry, I missed the part where "us" only meant Xemnas. Its a plural form of a pronoun usually used to signify more than one person so unless Xemnas treats his body and soul as separate entities its obvious he's including KH (which he's talking to) into his entourage. This dialogue just further proves he's speaking to KHoM.
What he actually was saying was "hinder us [from becoming one]" and Xemnas dying would be a pretty darn good hindrance.
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Except you are misinterpreting the definition of ruin and suggesting it only has one meaning
Except I and the game are not talking about ruin, the noun.
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despite the physical evidence shown in the game suggesting that its other definitions are much better suited..KHoM gets hole blown into it. KH at top of CTNW has hole in it. They look exactly the same except for size after the damage.
...despite that combining didn't change their size.
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But he could easily make the KHoH by absorbing the power of KHoW within a terribly short amount of time.
Except he's missing at least a few million hearts for making the KHoM.
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Meaning he would never had needed KHoM to be complete cause all he would need is enough power to summon KHoW to him.
Which is only 1 out of 2 KH's, which is only half the power he wanted.
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Then he could create the other with little effort. This is a terribly illogical not to do.
Now you're assuming that he can create hearts. That's just about the most illogical thing I've ever heard.
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Accept he wouldn't be crying around about KHoM being 'completely destroyed" if he did. He would have announced he summoned KHoW
Why wouldn't he? He just lost a major power source.
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and would have flatten the party and gone off to subjegate the world and make himself even stronger.
That could be what he have done, except for the part where he failed at "flatten the party."
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By you theory, Xemnas is not only an idiot but a a whiny crybaby.
He did try to flatten the party as you said. I'd be whining too if my 10 year plan of creating the KHoM got foiled by those meddling kids and their keyblade.
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When dealing with people traveling through them. Nothing ever talked about the effects on a lone heart without a shell.
Nothing ever talked about there being a difference in heart corruptibility. But that still doesn't just give you the right to make up your own unquestionable claims based on "can't prove me wrong", like you've been doing for almost this entire debate.
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You mean when they appear above the heartless and disappear in thin air. Yeah, they leave but its never said to be a Dark Corridor
Darkness surrounds the hearts, and then they are whisked off to another location. That's exactly what Dark Corridors do, darkness forms around the person, they disappear.
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it doesn't even vanish like a normal person does when using the Dark Corridor.
In case you haven't noticed, there isn't one specific animation that occurs when someone uses a Dark Corridor. Org13/Riku/DiZ can form two different types of them. Maleficent has her own Dark Corridor. The Heartless and lower Nobodies also have their own Dark Corridors. Good job at paying attention to cutscenes, by the way.
Try using something that isn't weak next time. Actually, I guess this is an improvement over "can't prove me wrong."
Oh look, it's what you're basing every one of your claims off. "It's never said that I'm wrong, so I'm right."
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Beginning in 358/2 but what about before that? Like when the Worlds are restored at the end of KH1.
Um, ya. Xemnas has known about Sora and kept tabs on him since KH1 when he fought with Sora in Hollow Bastion.
358/2 Days starts the day that Sora turned into a Heartless, by the way. Hopefully this'll help clear up this cloud of ignorance around you.
