The Nature of Kingdom Hearts

[PuPu]

Yet, Sora was physically taken there seeing as how everyone was looking for him

It doesn't mean it's a place. When Roxas appeared in TWNTW, and Sora "disappeared" he didn't go to another place, he just went into his own mind. Same thing here.

KH is never said not to be a world either and we don't know enough about KH since the player never actually interacts with it to say how the rules apply to it.

This has got to be the weakest garbage that you've pulled in this entire debate. KH is never said to not to be [infinitely many different things] either, so you really don't get anywhere by saying this. Because we are told what KH IS, we are told at the same time everything that it is NOT.

Seriously, I can't believe you're saying that KH is a world by using "well nothing says I'm wrong." It's just too bad that if you've got nothing to say that you're right either.

Besides, a world itself is a collection of hearts at its most basic level...

Not even close.

Xemnas: Oh its ruined... Now I can't be a god... guess I'll settle for Demi-god and start again from there.

What a completely made up and baseless line that's only supported by your own, unsupported claims.

Just because its ruined doesn't mean it can't have a use or be salvaged for other goals. It just means he can't use it for its original intention.

ru·in

Total destruction or disintegration, either physical, moral, social, or economic. A cause of total destruction. The act of destroying totally.

From dictionary.com

Seriously, the "totally" part of destroyed is almost always included in the definition of "ruined."

What's to say Xemnas only redirected them to him in TWTNW? Hearts gather in Darkness yes, but that doesn't mean they specifically go to the Realm of Darkness

TWNTW = In-between, thus it =/= "Darkness"
Realm of Darkness = Darkness

Seriously, your arguments are getting weaker and weaker as I go down.

and if they did, Xemnas could easily just stop them from passing into the realm. If he's calling the hearts to him, why let them travel to the Realm of Darkness in the first place?

"Why?" doesn't really matter because you still have got nothing that says he pulled the hearts to TWTNW.

He could just as easily trap them at the border and make them into his own Artificial Kingdom Hearts in TWTNW. Oh wait... he did.

He could but, oh wait...you've got nothing that says he did.

Besides, if Xemnas could pull KH of worlds from the Realm of Darkness, why bother making the KH of Men now?

Because he used the KH of men to do so.

He could have easily turned himself into a near god by bringing KH of Worlds to him, release the Heartless into the Realm of Light, absorb all the hearts that the Keyblade wielders set free if not even being strong enough to reduce everything to heart if its within his power and gone on with his plan of remaking the universe.

Your hypothetical is meaningless when compared to what actually happened.

Your "theory" on the end game events do not any make sense from this perspective. If he had the power to do it himself, why bother going through the whole business of making an artificial KH? He could have absorbed KH ten years ago and be god by now.

He needed to KH of men to get to get the KH of worlds, because it's an alternate way from using the DTD.

Its treated as a World in KH1

No it isn't. Tell me, what is it called then?

if Yen Sid's castle can be world and Winnie the Pooh's book can be a world

Yen Sid's castle was said to be a world by the DSR, and 100 Acre Wood is a world because it has a Keyhole.

who is to say this isn't?

Because there's nothing that says it IS.

Its obvious the term "World" in KH is ill defined.

No it isn't. Even if it was, it doesn't give you the right to call whatever you want as a world.

Bringing it to him is also ridiculous and implausible. It never happened.

KH is in the Realm of Darkness as said by the game. Xemnas never went to the Realm of Darkness. Therefore, KH went to him. Just because you don't like HOW it happened doesn't mean that it DIDN'T happen.

We don't know enough about KH to say this is true.

This is basically 70% of your entire argument right here, and I can easily just say the same thing for almost everything you've said. Neither of us get anywhere by saying this.

Except there is no proof...

Except that the game says KH is in the Realm of Darkness, and since Xemnas didn't go to the Realm of Darkness, there's only one choice left.

He never summons the KH of Worlds though, he becomes one with his "ruined" KH and gets his ass kicked.

He becomes one with a "completely destroyed" KH?

We actually don't know if KH is a world or not, its not defined as a world but its barely defined at all except for being a collection of hearts.

It's not "barely defined" just because it doesn't fit your definition. That's like saying "KH isn't defined as a Heartless, so therefore it might be a Heartless." By telling us what it is, at the same time, we are told everything that it is ISN'T.

We barely know anything about it to make proclamations like "its not a world". No one in the story has been to the true KH so we don't know what KH is actually like. We only have to go on Ansem and Xehnort's research as well as what King Mickey has said.

Your entire argument of KH being a world is now basically reduced to a hypothetical, a possibility, based only on "well nothing says I'm wrong!"

Oh the irony...

What? Just because you're ignorant on the series and each installment doesn't mean that you're right.

Oh yeah... Mickey's been fighting them Heartless for the last ten years. Seeing as he didn't realize they were invading the Realm of Light until the start of KH1.

For smurf's sake, Mickey knew the Heartless were invading since BBS. Hell, the Ansem Reports of KH1 even mention him talking about the worlds being consumed by darkness with Xehanort.

You are assuming there were others. Yes, we get 6 more (for now) in BBS but they are not fighting Heartless and no one knows if they got a fairy tale ending in BBS.

I'm assuming there are others because we only see a few thousand keyblades when TAV fight MX and Vanitas. Obviously, tons of keyblades exist, it's not unreasonable to think that there can also be tons of Keyblade wielders too.

Even if there were more Keyblade wielders than we are aware of, the situations in KH1 and 2 are extreme enough you would think they would have made themselves known.

Mickey didn't make himself known. Nobody in KH1 knew he wielded a Keyblade.

If they were unaware, they stayed in their own worlds and thus had a much more limited contribution to Xemnas' plan.

It doesn't matter where you kill Heartless, just that you kill Heartless.

It still stands that Roxas and Sora were imperative to their plan and the reason they were able to nearly complete it. Also, as TSoL said earlier, the KH of Men doesn't even appear in TWTNW until Roxas joined in 358/2 so I feel its safe to say they could not even begin their operation until the Kingdom Key appeared in Destiny Island.

The only thing that proves is that he didn't begin to combine the hearts, not that there weren't any hearts.

This is assuming the Realm of Darkness works like the Realm of Light...

At least I have the Realm of Light to base what I believe. Yours is just "well we don't know, so therefore we can assume it's done the way I say without any proof needed at all."

Which is why they should not have wasted their time gathering Princess' and Hearts when they could just travel to KH.

Because they can't Dark Corridor themselves directly to KH, because they don't know where it is. That's why Maleficent said that the Princesses will reveal its location.

I mean, Mickey found Kingdom Key D in the Realm of Darkness and in very little time, why not find KH in the span of 10 years?

How does this even matter? It took Mickey the same amount of time as it took the villains of KH1.

Then enlighten us all on where you were and where the DTD appeared.

Well, you know that you were very close to the Realm of Darkness, but not actually in the Realm of Darkness. That's it.

Please use in-game and source material references to tell us how you came to this conclusion as well.

You can't even provide stuff that says that Sora was still in EotW.

No it isn't.

Remember how the chart on the DSR had TWNTW listed as the closest to Darkness? Yeah...

Seeing as how the final battle with Xemnas starts with his Nobody Dragon Fortress breaking free a mile away from where KHoM was.

The difference is that it has been stated many times that KH is indeed in the Realm of Darkness, whereas Dragon has nothing stated about it. But since we're going with "we never went to the Realm of Darkness" there's only one possibility left, that Dragon was in TWTNW.

The only official border between the In-Between Worlds and Realm of Darkness is the Dark Coastline. Not that and just a few yards above CTNW. Xemnas formed his KH in TWTNW. We don't even see such a place like the Dark Coastline near The Castle That Never Was or the Dark City

No it isn't. The Dark Coastline is ON the border, but not the entire border. The DSR also says TWNTW is on the edge of Darkness as well.

Sora and Riku have to travel through a Dark Corridor to reach it. This tells me its farther away than we think.

Because they went there from the Realm of Nothing, and that's...an entirely different realm.

But we never see this, you are just assuming he did.

What the hell? One of the videos you showed me did indeed show Xemnas being in TWTNW, right in front of KH.

He could have easily just made KH in his own world and merged with its broken remains... Which is what 99% of the KH community believes.

Merging with something "completely destroyed?"

Also, lol at the fake statistic.

I have never once seen a reference or interpretation from any source that says what you think happen as being true.

Let's see:
The game says KH is in the Realm of Darkness.
Saix said the KH of Men was forming in the Realm of Darkness.
Xemnas didn't go to the Realm of Darkness, yet still got KH while he was in TWTNW.

By waiting for another Keyblade Master that took 10 years...

Dude, we see Mickey in BBS with a Keyblade.

He didn't bring it to himself either. He just merged with his broken one in TWTNW.

"Merging with something 'completely destroyed'"

We don't even know how he does this, for all we know he has a machine that is doing this or even The Castle That Never Was could be the antenna that attracts the Heartless. You are assuming this is caused by his power when there are other likely scenarios.

But you're not denying that he DID do it. And no matter HOW he did it, all that matters is that it DID happen, meaning he can indeed affect hearts across different realms. Whether by his own power or something else doesn't matter. But it isn't hard to believe that it was his own power, what with that one scene in KH2 showing him actually clustering the Hearts and the fact that Nomura says Xemnas is the most powerful person in KH so far (even before he absorbed KH).

Til you can give in-game proof he's directly gathering the Hearts your argument is still on really shaky ground.

It really isn't shaky at all, since your entire argument against it is "the game doesn't directly tell you that you're right."

Oh the irony...

I'm not the one who's making most of my entire argument off of "well nothing says I'm wrong" and "well you weren't directly told to be right."

“like a moon that floats in the World that Never Was.” You can't beat evidence from both the creator and the scenario writer (the hack he is).

Hey, I can easily do what you're doing too.

"like a moon that floats in the World that Never Was."

"Like" as in, similar to, but not exactly [in TWTNW]. Destiny Islands is "like" a star that floats above Traverse Town. Yen Sid's Tower is "like" a train ride away from Twilight Town. The reality is though, DI and Traverse Town are separate, and so is YST and Twilight Town. And so is KH and TWNTW.

As for Saix's speech, he only says Hearts gather in Darkness he never said the Dark Realm.

He sure doesn't mean "TWTNW" when he says darkness. But again, you'd have to be pretty close minded to think that Darkness =/= Realm of Darkness.

Worlds can still have the property of darkness despite being neutral or light as evident by the countless hearts falling from the broken KHoM that become Heartless when they touch the floor of TWTNW.

The hearts didn't become Heartless. The hearts were re-stolen by the Heartless. And some of them didn't get stolen by Heartless because tons of Dusks also re-collected the hearts.

Since KHoM is in TWTNW, it is highly unlikely that Xemnas has the power to summon KHoW from the Dark Realm cause once agin, if he had that power, why bother with Org XIII?

Because he used OrgXIII to create the KH of Men, which he used to summon the KH of Worlds.

Especially since we don't have any proof it was his power alone that summoned the Hearts to his world.

After all other Org members were dead, after Ansem blew up his KH of Men, he told Sora and gang to get more hearts for him. Had they actually did go collect more hearts for him, he implied that he could still use the hearts that they could've collected, when the rest of the Org was dead.

You're getting nowhere with this "no proof" stuff.

Yeah, he could absorb his broken one. He might not be a god but it could be more than enough to beat a bunch of kids with Keyblades and a talking rat, dog, and duck.

Absorb something that he said was "completely destroyed?" Wat.

Especially since his KHoM disappears after his first defeat from the party which is a pretty good hint to what really happened.

The KHoM was completely destroyed by Ansem, though. As said by Xemnas himself. That was the KHoW that disappeared.

Yeah, Darkness, not Realm of Darkness, not that the End of the World, Hollow Bastion, and TWTNW don't count as worlds that have a powerful influence of Darkness.

TWTNW isn't darkness. The Realm of Darkness is Darkness.

Yeah, Darkness, not Realm of Darkness, not that the End of the World, Hollow Bastion, and TWTNW don't count as worlds that have a powerful influence of Darkness. His comment is so vague, we could easily interpret it meaning that hearts will go to other Heartless since they are also Darkness.

Everything you mentioned except TWTNW can be easily crossed off, since we know and see that the answers aren't even remotely close to everything else, based on what we see in the game. So you're left with:

Some in-between world = Darkness
and
The Realm of Darkness = Darkness

Yeah, kinda easy to tell who's got the better one here. Even if what I say isn't 100% certain, it's still undoubtedly better than yours.

This one very vague line is pretty lousy proof of anything.

Only if you don't bother paying attention to what actually happens in the game and the rest of what he says. Just because something isn't directly said about something, does not make it lousy.

Nomura and Nojima agree with me.

Not really. "Like" =/= total agreement.

Um... no. Traverse Town is a completely different world from Destiny Island and not anywhere close to it.

The point is, you're saying that you can see KH from TWNTW as a moon, but you can also see DI as star from TT. Yet DI and TT are separate, so is KH and TWTNW. I'm talking about when Donald says "Look! A star/DI went out!" What you thought wasn't even close.

No, he actually says they do it themselves. He never said Xemnas was responsible.

I can say that thread weaves together to form clothing, but that doesn't mean that it does it by itself. Xemnas being responsible is painfully obvious with that one scene where you see him clustering the hearts together.

Xemnas wanted to rebuild the world as god, XH wanted to flood the world of Darkness and rule it as a god... Not much difference in my opinion. Their underlying motives are different but their goals achieve very similar ends.

Yeah, I know they both wanted to become very powerful. Xemnas wanted KH, XH wanted Darkness of KH.

Once again, its not enough power to achieve his goal, it doesn't mean its was useless.

"Something completely destroyed isn't useless at all!"

KHoM is still swirling with power as he makes this declaration. His plans are ruined but it doesn't mean KHoM was useless for something else.

KHoW is swirling with power, KHoM was completely destroyed and useless.

Only enough to screw over his goal of world domination. The thing still has some juice

"I don't know what completely destroyed means!"

watch swirling power emanating from the KHoM in the videos I unlinked. When he asks for help, both him and the KHoM are being enveloped together with power coming from KHoM. His whole dialogue is him pleading with the KHoM to give him power in exchange for him giving it more hearts.

Sorry, but KHoM was completely destroyed. But if you replace every KHoM with KHoW, you've got a true statement.

The last line is interesting to note cause how is Sora and Co. a hindrance to KHoW? Obviously he is talking to the broken KHoM which was hindered by Ansem and Co.

"Hinder us" means that Sora and gang were going to kill Xemnas so that he couldn't merge, not that they were going to destroy KHoW. How can you not get something that simple?

His entire dialogue with KH is directed right at KHoM which he is facing. KHoM disappears after he is defeated by Sora and Co. the first time. How more obvious do you need to be to say he absorbed KHoM?

The KHoM was completely destroyed by Ansem. Xemnas even admitted that the KHoM was completely destroyed. How more obvious do you need to be to say that KHoM was gone?

Which would be completely retarded to say if he actually absorbed KHoW cause he would technically have the power that is the foundation of the universe of KH. You would think he wouldn't need KHoM at that point.

But there's 2 KH's. How is it retarded to want all and not just half? Just cause you don't like it, doesn't mean it's wrong.

Because it defeats the entire purpose of making KHoM...

The purpose of KHoM was to get KHoW, which he managed to do; Ansem was too late.

Except we don't know if it was all him or some other means...

At this point, I shouldn't even bother acknowledging these as a legitimate argument.

Besides, he couldn't use the Dark Corridors to gather the Hearts since those passage ways can corrupt Hearts. They should all be turning into Heartless due to the corruptible nature of the CoD.

You missed the part where they corrupt hearts after "extended use."

We don't even know how Hearts travel when they are free from a Heartless.

We see the the hearts disappear during that scene with Saix in Hollow Bastion. The only person who doesn't seem to know anything is you.

For all we know, they travel through another path unique to them to return to their original body.

...but they weren't. Because Xemnas was controlling the path of the hearts.