explanations. *serious spoilers. do not read uless you hae completed the game.*

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WHY can't Rinoa possibly be Ultimecia? Everyone says that there is no 'evidence' in the game, but it is suggestive in the ending. Sure Selphie, Irvine and the gang get their shine, but Rinoa's image is repeated at the end and no one else except Ultimecia, making it highly suggestive.

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Look again. Edea flashes over Rinoa's face before Ultimecia, and after Ultimecia every major character flashes on the screen in turn and order. Further, this is TC; everything is weird and little of it makes any sense at all, so it's hardly rational to pick out one tiny little thing which isn't even a unique thing and claim that it's somehow extremely special and indicative of a greater truth.

So considering that it's TC and it's NOT just Ultimecia, it is NOT highly suggestive of anything.

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Now, as far as 'in the game' or 'evidence' goes, at the end of the game, Ultimecia still exists in the future and can possess any Sorceress she so chooses, for she has (technically) already done so. Also, as the game shows, Sorceress Rinoa is the final Sorceress, there are no other Sorceresses in the game after the ending.

And as the arguements started so is there the mystery of 'what happens' now? Will Rinoa become Ultimecia?

Someone told me that it didn't matter WHO Rinoa's successor would be, but that it 'did'/'will' happen. It DOES matter because we have no other assurance of who that will be or if there is a successor at all. And there is the 'evidence' or lack there of... Of the 'possibility'.

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That's all nice, but you didn't actually state any ingame evidence at all in that entire bulk of text. The fact that we do not know what will happen after the game does not in any way make R=U a valid theory.

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The only reason why it is rejected is because most do not want to see anything past the "Happy Ending"...

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No, it's rejected because people like yourself talk of evidence without actually providing any. People will believe what the game shows them, namely the "Happy Ending" unless you give them a very good reason as to why they should consider something different. You have not done so yet, and neither have any other R=U supporters.

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I personally don't believe that Sorceresses are 'immortal' but believe it or not kiddles, people DO live multiple generations. And as we see 'in the game' Edea Kramer succeeds Sorceress Ultimecia when she is around the age of 30 years old, and 15-18 years later she has not, cosmetically aged a day. Apparently, the Sorceress Power has the ability to affect the human physiology. (Elongated hair going to short, facial scars, tattooes, horns, and wings, ect). The ambiguity of what is defined as 'generations' or how many generations leaves the future untold as it should be for time travellers, otherwise they would go about trying to change 'fate' as Ultimecia did, but ultimately failed.

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There's no ambiguity. A generation can be anything between 20-30 years; let's assume 20. Now, "many" may be ambiguous, but in order to allow Rinoa to age naturally to Ultimecia, we'd have to interpret many as no more than 4 (and that'd make Rinoa about 98 years old mind you), which hardly seems reasonable.

Why not? Because besides the fact that entire point of using TC to travel to the future is to access Ultimecia who clearly lives far into the future, Laguna explicitly states that Ultimecia lives in a future where the party can technically speaking not exist. That is, they should all be dead by then.

But even if we ignore that, and seriously consider "many" as 4 generations, the Ultimecia we see should be old and haggard and frail. No matter how many powers she has, or to what great extent a sorceress can alter their appearances, the fact is that sorceress age like regular human beings, and so at age 98 they should be just about ready to keel over simply from old age. Ultimecia is clearly NOT in such a state.

The ONLY way for R=U to even be technically speaking possible in the first place is if you assume something along the lines of Rinoa being frozen down, but as we all know by now, such an assumption is utterly baseless and hardly suffices to render the theory valid.

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WHY can't Rinoa possibly be Ultimecia?

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its not impossible but there isn't enough proof to say that rinoa is definetly ultimecia. SB has explained everything. ultimecia could be nearly any female character in this game. its not impossible. but there is no solid proof. the R=U theory i good and the evidence it brings up is also good but it has been disproven. i like the theory but there is no solid evidence that say that rinoa must be ultimecia.

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Originally Posted by Pharoh Amon Khan III

WHY can't Rinoa possibly be Ultimecia? Everyone says that there is no 'evidence' in the game, but it is suggestive in the ending. Sure Selphie, Irvine and the gang get their shine, but Rinoa's image is repeated at the end and no one else except Ultimecia, making it highly suggestive. Also, for the sake of the arguement "It not in the game" or there's no evidence"... There are several ways of seeing the ending.

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Yes, but without any evidence, there's no reason to believe any of them, especially the more outrageous of them.

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There is the "Happy Ending" or the possiblity that Rinoa will/could become Ultimecia. For at the end of the game, Ultimecia still exists in the future and because of the Fated Children and Ellone, Ultimecia possesses the entire Succession of Witches save for Rinoa; and Edea who would be the Fated Successor of Ultimecia thus creating the "Loop of Fate".

Whether Rinoa becomes Ultimeica or not, the Fate of the Fated Children was to be the Fated Safe-Guard that ensured the defeat of the Ultimate Sorceress: Ultimecia.

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I don't see how this aids your position. The succession actually speaks against it.

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Now, as far as 'in the game' or 'evidence' goes, at the end of the game, Ultimecia still exists in the future and can possess any Sorceress she so chooses, for she has (technically) already done so. Also, as the game shows, Sorceress Rinoa is the final Sorceress, there are no other Sorceresses in the game after the ending.

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Evidence, please?

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And as the arguements started so is there the mystery of 'what happens' now? Will Rinoa become Ultimecia?

Someone told me that it didn't matter WHO Rinoa's successor would be, but that it 'did'/'will' happen. It DOES matter because we have no other assurance of who that will be or if there is a successor at all.

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The succession of witches prove a successor, QED.

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And there is the 'evidence' or lack there of... Of the 'possibility'. The only reason why it is rejected is because most do not want to see anything past the "Happy Ending"...

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Appeal to motive. We reject it because it is groundless.

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I personally don't believe that Sorceresses are 'immortal' but believe it or not kiddles, people DO live multiple generations. And as we see 'in the game' Edea Kramer succeeds Sorceress Ultimecia when she is around the age of 30 years old, and 15-18 years later she has not, cosmetically aged a day.

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Evidence she was around thirty, and not around twenty? Evidence that she has not aged a day? Evidence that her appearance is out of the ordinary for a woman of her age?

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Apparently, the Sorceress Power has the ability to affect the human physiology. (Elongated hair going to short, facial scars, tattooes, horns, and wings, ect). The ambiguity of what is defined as 'generations' or how many generations leaves the future untold as it should be for time travellers, otherwise they would go about trying to change 'fate' as Ultimecia did, but ultimately failed.

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Bahamut dealt with this.

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So... I don't see any reason 'Why Rinoa could become Ultimecia'.

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And neither does anyone else.

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Originally Posted by boys from the dwarf

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WHY can't Rinoa possibly be Ultimecia?

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its not impossible but there isn't enough proof to say that rinoa is definetly ultimecia. SB has explained everything. ultimecia could be nearly any female character in this game. its not impossible. but there is no solid proof. the R=U theory i good and the evidence it brings up is also good but it has been disproven. i like the theory but there is no solid evidence that say that rinoa must be ultimecia.

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Exactly.

So you agree that while the theory is technically speaking possible, it has no validity?

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

So you agree that while the theory is technically speaking possible, it has no validity?

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I'm saying... All things are possible. Rinoa is the last in the Succession of the Witches. She could be the one that becomes Ultimecia.

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Originally Posted by Pharoh Amon Khan III

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

So you agree that while the theory is technically speaking possible, it has no validity?

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I'm saying... All things are possible. Rinoa is the last in the Succession of the Witches. She could be the one that becomes Ultimecia.

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No. She isn't. Stop ignoring the succession of future witches. I KNOW I've told you to stop ignoring them at least three times now.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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Originally Posted by Pharoh Amon Khan III

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

So you agree that while the theory is technically speaking possible, it has no validity?

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I'm saying... All things are possible. Rinoa is the last in the Succession of the Witches. She could be the one that becomes Ultimecia.

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No. She isn't. Stop ignoring the succession of future witches. I KNOW I've told you to stop ignoring them at least three times now.

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I'm not ignoring the Succession of the Witches. Rinoa is the final Successor until Ultimecia. There's no one else. The Fated Children brought about the end of each predecessor of Sorceress Adel as they were supposed to. How am I ignoring the Succession of Witches?

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Originally Posted by Pharoh Amon Khan III

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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Originally Posted by Pharoh Amon Khan III

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

So you agree that while the theory is technically speaking possible, it has no validity?

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I'm saying... All things are possible. Rinoa is the last in the Succession of the Witches. She could be the one that becomes Ultimecia.

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No. She isn't. Stop ignoring the succession of future witches. I KNOW I've told you to stop ignoring them at least three times now.

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I'm not ignoring the Succession of the Witches. Rinoa is the final Successor until Ultimecia. There's no one else. The Fated Children brought about the end of each predecessor of Sorceress Adel as they were supposed to. How am I ignoring the Succession of Witches?

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They were travelling into the future.They were defeating future sorceresses.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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Originally Posted by Pharoh Amon Khan III

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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Originally Posted by Pharoh Amon Khan III

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

So you agree that while the theory is technically speaking possible, it has no validity?

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I'm saying... All things are possible. Rinoa is the last in the Succession of the Witches. She could be the one that becomes Ultimecia.

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No. She isn't. Stop ignoring the succession of future witches. I KNOW I've told you to stop ignoring them at least three times now.

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I'm not ignoring the Succession of the Witches. Rinoa is the final Successor until Ultimecia. There's no one else. The Fated Children brought about the end of each predecessor of Sorceress Adel as they were supposed to. How am I ignoring the Succession of Witches?

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They were travelling into the future.They were defeating future sorceresses.

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This does not answer the question of how was I ignoring the Succession of Witches. The Fated Children defeated the preceeding Succession of Witches as they travelled through Time Compression, aiding Ultimecia in to be given each of their power and preceeding that, it was with the help of Rinoa and Ellone, that she was able to possess all Sorceresses preceeding Adel. I'm not ignoring the Succession, the succession raises this possibility.

I don't see why this is such a problem. It's a possibility, but not a certainty. But apparently, this is a problem with people who can't stand to see their beloved Rinoa as some persecuted creature struggling to survive against the odds of Fate. Again, The Happy Ending and The Unknown Fate/Future. But let's not get into a slugfest about...

I don't see myself ignoring the Succession at all.

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This does not answer the question of how was I ignoring the Succession of Witches. The Fated Children defeated the preceeding Succession of Witches as they travelled through Time Compression, aiding Ultimecia in to be given each of their power and preceeding that, it was with the help of Rinoa and Ellone, that she was able to possess all Sorceresses preceeding Adel. I'm not ignoring the Succession, the succession raises this possibility.

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The point is that there clearly existed sorceress between Rinoa and Ultimecia. These are the sorceress we fight when heading to Ultimecia's time. The fact that they are killed by the party does NOT in any way change the fact that they exist on the line of time in FF8. They were not eliminated from existence, and so after the game ends, they will all rise to power succesively, and all be killed by Squall and co in turn and order.

So by saying Rinoa is the last in the succession before Ultimecia, you are ignoring all those sorceress we see, answering your question.

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I'm saying... All things are possible.

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I find it odd that you have spent pages debating when all you wanted to point out could be said in this tiny sentence. Because yes, "all things are possible", but this is not relevant! A rational debate cannot be based on this premise, because it means we must give a fair trial to theories such as "Squall is an evolved Shumi", "Irvine is Edea" or any other number of absurd notions.

The premise "all things are possible" works fine if you're writing a fanfic, but in a logical debate, it's worthless and cannot even be seriously considered for a second.

[QUOTE=Sir Bahamut;1874046]

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This does not answer the question of how was I ignoring the Succession of Witches. The Fated Children defeated the preceeding Succession of Witches as they travelled through Time Compression, aiding Ultimecia in to be given each of their power and preceeding that, it was with the help of Rinoa and Ellone, that she was able to possess all Sorceresses preceeding Adel. I'm not ignoring the Succession, the succession raises this possibility.

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The point is that there clearly existed sorceress between Rinoa and Ultimecia. These are the sorceress we fight when heading to Ultimecia's time. The fact that they are killed by the party does NOT in any way change the fact that they exist on the line of time in FF8. They were not eliminated from existence, and so after the game ends, they will all rise to power succesively, and all be killed by Squall and co in turn and order.

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Clearly you say? Then who is the Successor? No one? Hmm...

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So by saying Rinoa is the last in the succession before Ultimecia, you are ignoring all those sorceress we see, answering your question.

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Wait for it... Wait for it... Wait for it... Wait for it...

Really? And you can prove this? That there is a successor to Sorceress Rinoa? When clearly the Succession that the Fated Children were slaying were, if you were actually reading my previous statement, the Witches preceeding Adel. The ones that Ultimecia was gathering through Time Compression, the one that she needed Ellone and Rinoa's help in reaching... That's right, the past, not from the future. Which leaves... Rinoa as the only Sorceress left. Whether she is to succeeded or not is not evident leaving it in the hands of Fate. It's kinda scary for you/us to think that their Happy Ending could be as limited by time and fate as it was for Cid and Edea, huh? The game has a lot of strange reflections of history repeating itself... Doomsday is just around the corner, let's enjoy the time we have Squall and Rinoa...

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I'm saying... All things are possible.

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[quote]I find it odd that you have spent pages debating when all you wanted to point out could be said in this tiny sentence. Because yes, "all things are possible", but this is not relevant! A rational debate cannot be based on this premise, because it means we must give a fair trial to theories such as "Squall is an evolved Shumi", "Irvine is Edea" or any other number of absurd notions.

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The premise "all things are possible" works fine if you're writing a fanfic, but in a logical debate, it's worthless and cannot even be seriously considered for a second.

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When I played from a saved game about a day or so after beating this game to see the ending again, I still had questions running through my mind like: "But she's still a Sorceress! Won't they just try to lock her up again?" "Ultimecia still exists and can take control of her! WTF!"

Weeks later I heard of this R=U. That helped fill the blanks for me.

If there is a successor to Rinoa, name him/her. But there is no 'evidence' of a successor, is there? No... The Succession is there, but no successor.

All I'm seeing now is just some adamant view of "The Happy Ending"...

Almost a bigoted POV that nothing else could even be 'possible'?

And speaking of fan-fics...

"Enjoy your Happy Ending O'Fated Children, for time... it will not wait... no matter how hard you hold on, it escapes you. Fate, you can not escape it. The War of the Witches is coming. Let the Witch Hunts begin... Starting with Sorceress Rinoa. "

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Originally Posted by Pharoh Amon Khan III

Clearly you say? Then who is the Successor? No one? Hmm...

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Who the successor is is STILL irrelevant.

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Wait for it... Wait for it... Wait for it... Wait for it...

Really? And you can prove this? That there is a successor to Sorceress Rinoa? When clearly the Succession that the Fated Children were slaying were, if you were actually reading my previous statement, the Witches preceeding Adel. The ones that Ultimecia was gathering through Time Compression, the one that she needed Ellone and Rinoa's help in reaching... That's right, the past, not from the future.

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Care to provide a gorram lick of evidence that they are Adel's predecessors, given that the party is engaged in travelling to the future?

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Which leaves... Rinoa as the only Sorceress left. Whether she is to succeeded or not is not evident leaving it in the hands of Fate. It's kinda scary for you/us to think that their Happy Ending could be as limited by time and fate as it was for Cid and Edea, huh?

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Cid and Edea got a happy ending in the end.

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When I played from a saved game about a day or so after beating this game to see the ending again, I still had questions running through my mind like: "But she's still a Sorceress! Won't they just try to lock her up again?" "Ultimecia still exists and can take control of her! WTF!"

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Ulti can't take control of her. She's dead. If she was going to take control of Rinoa again, it would have to have been some time before taking over Edea, and that wouldn't make really any sense, since her original plan was to jump back as far in time as she could.

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Weeks later I heard of this R=U. That helped fill the blanks for me.

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While making so many more.

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If there is a successor to Rinoa, name him/her. But there is no 'evidence' of a successor, is there? No... The Succession is there, but no successor.

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Suzy F'in McGee. Though while you're asking us to provide evidence of a child capable of becoming a sorceress- which there has never been a lack for in all else of recorded history for these people- you provide none for your own position.

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Almost a bigoted POV that nothing else could even be 'possible'?

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Said the man trying to shove a ridiculously implausible scenario down our throats.

To add one thing:

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"Enjoy your Happy Ending O'Fated Children, for time... it will not wait... no matter how hard you hold on, it escapes you. Fate, you can not escape it. The War of the Witches is coming. Let the Witch Hunts begin... Starting with Sorceress Rinoa. "

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We know that witches were eventually persecuted, but considering that Rinoa is close with the president of Esthar, a high ranking General of Deling and the commanding officer of SeeD, it seems highly unlikely that even IF persecutions started properly within Rinoa's lifetime, she'd be at all effected. I mean, hardly anyone actually knows she's a sorceress to begin with.

Further, the persecution of sorceresses is a great background for Ultimecia, but there's nothing that indicates that it isn't simply one of Rinoa's successors who is persecuted. Especially considering that Ultimecia (who is the one persecuted mostly) lives too far into the future for it to be Rinoa.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

To add one thing:

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"Enjoy your Happy Ending O'Fated Children, for time... it will not wait... no matter how hard you hold on, it escapes you. Fate, you can not escape it. The War of the Witches is coming. Let the Witch Hunts begin... Starting with Sorceress Rinoa. "

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We know that witches were eventually persecuted, but considering that Rinoa is close with the president of Esthar, a high ranking General of Deling and the commanding officer of SeeD, it seems highly unlikely that even IF persecutions started properly within Rinoa's lifetime, she'd be at all effected. I mean, hardly anyone actually knows she's a sorceress to begin with.

Further, the persecution of sorceresses is a great background for Ultimecia, but there's nothing that indicates that it isn't simply one of Rinoa's successors who is persecuted. Especially considering that Ultimecia (who is the one persecuted mostly) lives too far into the future for it to be Rinoa.

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Then Laguna should have prevented her confinement to Lunatic Pandora the first time... Who's to say he can prevent another? Gen. Caraway is a apparently more of a soldier first and hardly a father at all. He organized the assasination of one Sorceress, why not another?

Also, Ultimecia is the only one that talks about persecution. There is no mention of generations of witches being persecuted. So...

There is nothing that indicates that it simply isn't Rinoa or that Rinoa has a successor.

And Ryukazie, as I explained earlier. they were so much as 'travelling to the future'; they 'hitched a ride' as Ultimecia was compressing time to gather all the fragments of Sorceress Power (Sorceresses) that we see the Fated Children destroy, compressing the past to the present. NOT Sorceresses from the 'future'. Read my previous posts before you just go off on me when I've been ignoring you as Leeza asked me to.