Why does SE believe that people don't like JPRGs?

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Yes, but the Uncharted Trilogy has sold twice as much as the XIII trilogy. That tells me that most of the those XIII sales was mainly based on brand name, anticipation after waiting years for a new installment, and being the first entry on an overpriced console that players would hope would justify proof of admission, not because XIII was some wonderful blissful game. The sequels did terrible with XIII-2 not even selling half as many units as its predecessor, and Lightning Returns hasn't even broke a million units sold and almost half of the games sales are from Japan.

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Final Fantasy XIII sold about 12 million and Uncharted about 17 million. You are probably thinking of the Final Fantasy Wikia which I would never recommend people to use (as long as it is not about getting a quick information like how to find item or ability xy). I also would not take the sales too much as what people really like but how high their expectations are. Many people were disappointed so they didn't buy it but it does not mean the sequels don't actually cover much they like and just don't know because they didn't buy it. It often means they didn't like the first one but actually they totally miss the opportunity to be surprised from the next one and all that just because they think it will be very similiar to what they didn't like.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Also XIII sold less than both FFXII and X-2, and XII's sales are probably in the same boat as XIII in terms of probably being high based on hype and waiting years for a new installment as opposed to positive reception.

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FFXII had about 5 million sales (RW should probably be counted as is it a part of it but it still less than the trilogy), that is less than XIII and way lower than the overall trilogy. FFX-2 for PS2 had about 3 million and I don't know about HD but that is definitely thanks to FFX-1 in most cases.

Also the argument that the name sales might be true just like many people like a Coca Cola more or a Sprite even though the same company actually sells a "no-name" product and people don't know but that is something normal because that guarantess sales and normally the name really does stand for something you know you can depend on. In my case I still do.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

I simply ask why? What makes a 10 hour experience different from a 40 hour one.

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Commitment, along with a hundred different other things, none of which are relevant, constructive, or likely to help your argument that popularity is a zero-sum game, where video games can only sell units to the detriment of other video games.

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That is a lousy answer and you are not really being constructive to this debate by ignoring the truth. ;)

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Final Fantasy XIII did not sell less than X-2, nor did its trilogy sell half of the Uncharted trilogy; we've reached the point where you're just making things up. There comes a point where our discussion threads are no longer exchanges of ideas, they're just meaningless words being thrown against each other, and that's not something I'm entirely interested in doing anymore.

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Final Fantasy XIII sold about 12 million and Uncharted about 17 million. You are probably thinking of the Final Fantasy Wikia which I would never recommend people to use (as long as it is not about getting a quick information like how to find item or ability xy). I also would not take the sales too much as what people really like but how high their expectations are. Many people were disappointed so they didn't buy it but it does not mean the sequels don't actually cover much they like and just don't know because they didn't buy it. It often means they didn't like the first one but actually they totally miss the opportunity to be surprised from the next one and all that just because they think it will be very similar to what they didn't like.

FFXII had about 5 million sales (RW should probably be counted as is it a part of it but it still less than the trilogy), that is less than XIII and way lower than the overall trilogy. FFX-2 for PS2 had about 3 million and I don't know about HD but that is definitely thanks to FFX-1 in most cases.

Also the argument that the name sales might be true just like many people like a Coca Cola more or a Sprite even though the same company actually sells a "no-name" product and people don't know but that is something normal because that guarantess sales and normally the name really does stand for something you know you can depend on. In my case I still do.

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FFXIII Sales as of August 30th 2014 - 5.18 million units sold.
FFXIII-2 Sales as of August 30th 2014 - 2.59 million units sold
Lightning Returns Sales as of August 30th 2014 - 0.89 million units sold

Total - 8.66 Million Units sold as of August 30th 2014

Uncharted: Drake's Fortune Sales as of August 30th 2014 - 4.76 million units sold
Uncharted 2: Among Thieves Sales as of August 30th 2014 - 6.42 million units sold
Uncharted 3: Drake's Deception Sales as of August 30th 2014 - 6.44 million units sold

Total - 17.62 Million Units Sold as of August 30th 2014

17.62 - 8.66 = 8.96 million units difference

FFX-2 (plus Internation Version but not the HD remake) Sales as of August 30th 2014 - 5.29 million units sold
FFXII (Pus International Version) Sales as of August as of August 30th 2014 - 5.95 million units sold.

5.18 - 5.29 = 110,000 units difference
5.18 - 5.95 = 770,000 units difference

Notice how I actually have links to my numbers, and notice how the dates are current to last month.

No, I don't use FF Wiki or even Wikipedia as a source, I go to a website dedicated to keeping track of these numbers and noticed how XIII did do worse than the last two console FFs and how there is a steady decline in XIII sales and a steady rise in Uncharted sales. :p

I will also say that I agree that sales figures do not mean XIII-2 and LR were bad games necessarily, but I would point out the reviews were not as good as XIII's if Metacritic is anything to go by. Hell the user scores are worse than the critical reviews and this applies to XII as well which I feel does suffer from bigger sales based on brand and hype as opposed to actual fan reaction.

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Originally Posted by Spuuky

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

I simply ask why? What makes a 10 hour experience different from a 40 hour one. What did FFVII accomplish that Metal Gear Solid didn't? Both games are filled with filler elements its just that MGS' only takes maybe thirty minutes out of your life whereas VII took over twenty hours to do.

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Pacing is totally different if the same story is packed into 10 hours rather than 40. For some things, that pace might be better. For others, it might be worse. Both forms offer different things; like the difference between a "mini-series" and a movie on TV. You can delve into things in a lot more detail, if you wish, if you have a longer time frame to work with. You can flesh out a world, rather than carefully structuring the illusion of depth all the time.

And if you are going to immerse yourself in a world, and you love that world, the longer you can stay immersed, the better it is. If the goal is world-immersion rather than a specific story or on top of a specific story, a longer game is inherently better, even if someone incorrectly deems some of the material to be "filler." This, specifically, is what handheld RPGs can't offer nearly as well as a full-production games.

I could tell the story of Crime & Punishment in 200 less pages than Dostoevsky did, by removing "filler." I can assure you I would lose a lot more than that along with it. Have you ever watched a Kurosawa movie? They are very long. The pacing is exquisite. You could tell the same story in an hour-long movie, but it wouldn't be the same story.

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This is what I'm getting at, though I would argue that there is more to JRPGs than narrative and I would also argue that handhelds can be just as long story-wise as a console title. I would also point out that you need to define good pacing with bad pacing. I mean Xenoblade and DQVII can both take over a hundred hours to complete but only Xenoblade is praised for its writing whereas DQVII's is said to be somewhat forgettable. On the other hand, DQV is well praised for its story and narrative but can be completed in under 30 hours. So would you say that JRPGs are often more successful with pacing or could stand to be edited down when the "filler" content adds nothing to the overall narrative, like say FFX's Monster Arena, which can tack on another 30 hours of game time but doesn't necessarily do anything for the world immersion?

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

FFXIII Sales as of August 30th 2014 - 5.18 million units sold.
FFXIII-2 Sales as of August 30th 2014 - 2.59 million units sold
Lightning Returns Sales as of August 30th 2014 - 0.89 million units sold

Total - 8.66 Million Units sold as of August 30th 2014

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Final Fantasy XIII sold 5,2 million + times for PlayStation 3 and 2 million + times for X Box. That makes almost 7,5 million times.

http://www.vgchartz.com/game/7727/final-fantasy-xiii/
http://www.vgchartz.com/game/24628/final-fantasy-xiii/

Final Fantasy XIII-2 sold 2,5 million + times on PlayStation 3 and about a bit over half a million times on X Box. That makes a bit over 3 million.

Together with Lightning Returns, lets say about one million, we have almost 12 million.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

5.18 - 5.29 = 110,000 units difference
5.18 - 5.95 = 770,000 units difference

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And 7 million is greater than 5 or 6 million so I am right (Final Fantasy X-2 has also been sold 6 million times if we count everything). I do not mean that in a provoking way, I just wanted to point it out so I have solved the XIII > X-2 or XII issue as well. Uncharted has sold 19 million, by the way.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

No, I don't use FF Wiki or even Wikipedia as a source, ...

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As much of a surprise as it is, Wikipedia is actually right. The mistake you have made is that you took the PS3 numbers as overall sales numbers. You probably did that purposely but an X Box Final Fantasy XIII is still Final Fantasy XIII and it should be counted except you really want to go the way of "consoles for which both game series came out" but that is not really fair, as it would make a great number of sales of Final Fantasy XIII insignificant and on which console it has been bought should not matter.

Source: http://www.vgchartz.com/gamedb/?name=Final+Fantasy+xiii

Here the overview:

http://s14.directupload.net/images/140916/qji6ujz2.jpg

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

This is what I'm getting at, though I would argue that there is more to JRPGs than narrative and I would also argue that handhelds can be just as long story-wise as a console title. I would also point out that you need to define good pacing with bad pacing. I mean Xenoblade and DQVII can both take over a hundred hours to complete but only Xenoblade is praised for its writing whereas DQVII's is said to be somewhat forgettable. On the other hand, DQV is well praised for its story and narrative but can be completed in under 30 hours. So would you say that JRPGs are often more successful with pacing or could stand to be edited down when the "filler" content adds nothing to the overall narrative, like say FFX's Monster Arena, which can tack on another 30 hours of game time but doesn't necessarily do anything for the world immersion?

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Of course there is more to JRPGs than narrative. Who exactly said there wasn't?

And "good pacing" and "bad pacing" are irrelevant to length. A story has a specific amount of content, and you can blow through that quickly or extend it way too long, but it's completely wrong to say that every story can be well-paced in 10 hours. It depends entirely on how big your story is.

What I want from games (sometimes) is specifically the ability to dissolve myself into their world for as long as I possibly can. If a game like that ends in 10 hours, I am going to be disappointed, even if the "story" is over. You can't do that on a handheld, not really. You can't immerse yourself in the same way, and you can't make the world large enough to explore it for a long time. Handhelds are great for shorter games, including short little fun JRPGs (like Etrian Odyssey, for instance). They're even pretty OK for a game like Dragon Quest IX; but you can't make Dragon Quest VIII on one and expect it to be the same. You can't make Fallout: New Vegas on one, either.

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Originally Posted by Spuuky

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

This is what I'm getting at, though I would argue that there is more to JRPGs than narrative and I would also argue that handhelds can be just as long story-wise as a console title. I would also point out that you need to define good pacing with bad pacing. I mean Xenoblade and DQVII can both take over a hundred hours to complete but only Xenoblade is praised for its writing whereas DQVII's is said to be somewhat forgettable. On the other hand, DQV is well praised for its story and narrative but can be completed in under 30 hours. So would you say that JRPGs are often more successful with pacing or could stand to be edited down when the "filler" content adds nothing to the overall narrative, like say FFX's Monster Arena, which can tack on another 30 hours of game time but doesn't necessarily do anything for the world immersion?

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Of course there is more to JRPGs than narrative. Who exactly said there wasn't?

And "good pacing" and "bad pacing" are irrelevant to length. A story has a specific amount of content, and you can blow through that quickly or extend it way too long, but it's completely wrong to say that every story can be well-paced in 10 hours. It depends entirely on how big your story is.

What I want from games (sometimes) is specifically the ability to dissolve myself into their world for as long as I possibly can. If a game like that ends in 10 hours, I am going to be disappointed, even if the "story" is over. You can't do that on a handheld, not really. You can't immerse yourself in the same way, and you can't make the world large enough to explore it for a long time. Handhelds are great for shorter games, including short little fun JRPGs (like Etrian Odyssey, for instance). They're even pretty OK for a game like Dragon Quest IX; but you can't make Dragon Quest VIII on one and expect it to be the same. You can't make Fallout: New Vegas on one, either.

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I'm sorry, but I'm gonna have to call BS on that. There is nothing stopping creators from making huge, long games on handhelds. Bravely Default, Radiant Historia both have long stories (with the former clocking even at 100 hours) with big, immersive worlds, and that's just to name a few, not even counting ports and remakes of things like older FFs, Persona 3 and even frigging Xenoblade Chronicles coming soon to the New 3DS which is certainly one of the best written recent RPGs (only one I ever passed the 100 hour mark by a substantial amount) with what is the biggest world I have ever experienced in a game (people have compared it to Skyrim, but I haven't played that, so I can't comment on that).

Oh, and DQVIII recently came out on iOS. Yes, the full game with all the graphics. Only thing missing is the voice acting. Otherwise, it's exactly the same game.

So yeah, you can totally make huge games on handhelds. In fact, there's tons of them. And honestly, that's all I play nowadays :monster:

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

Both genres don't require expert hand-eye co-ordination and precise timing. Basically differing them from the likes of FPS games, Fighter games, etc. which do require such things. A different set of skills required.

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If you think city-builders don't need hand-eye coordination, you've not been playing SimCity 4 with transit puzzle pieces modded in. (The game crashes if you touch any regular transit piece like a road with your cursor while placing them.)

Anyway the reason is because the JRPG genre is pretty well played out and only big enough to sustain the occasional nostalgia trip like Bravely Default right now. They're still putting out games like DQ, FF, SMT, and Tales of, but really hardly any JRPG series is doing much outside of handhelds anymore, and some big series are ded, like Breath of Fire and Suikoden.

There's only so far a genre can go with so little innovation, and SE are about the only people attempting anything innovative in JRPGs, with some seriously mixed results.

People ignoring Xenoblade... :whimper:

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Notice how I actually have links to my numbers, and notice how the dates are current to last month.

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Unfortunately, we also noticed you omitted the Xbox 360 sales, for reasons which I'm sure you'll assure us are legitimate.

In my mind, Wolf and the "JRPG Decline" crowd have yet to overcome two obstacles:

1) JRPGs have always been niche outside of Final Fantasy and Pokemon.
2) Final Fantasy and Pokemon are still popular.

I just don't see the fall of a genre that was niche on consoles brcause it's now niche on handheld and mobiles, especially when a) those handheld games are so damn good and b) a new series like Dark Souls proved you can still break through on the scene. And please stop with the "lack of innovation" arguments people, that word seemingly means something different to each person and it only reveals how many modern classics you personally haven't played.

This thread started about the age-old problem of missed translation opportunities and it's just devolved into something neurotic and insane.

He omitted them because he was comparing it to the Uncharted series which is a PS3 Exclusive. It was to point out that even an exclusive did better. It probably also goes with the whole Sony is the JRPG powerhouse thing but I could just be putting words in his ... fingers?

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Originally Posted by Freya

He omitted them because he was comparing it to the Uncharted series which is a PS3 Exclusive. It was to point out that even an exclusive did better. It probably also goes with the whole Sony is the JRPG powerhouse thing but I could just be putting words in his ... fingers?

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That doesn't make the X Box sales insignificant though (as I have covered in my post where I said he probably mentioned it because it is exclusive) and the success of Uncharted itself could have various reasons, like being a game genre of more general interest. Just mentioning the PS3 version and not even pointing out why highlights Final Fantasy XIII totally wrong and can give other people a wrong impression if Kanno really meant that and people don't understand it because of a missing definitive explanation.

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Originally Posted by The White Wizard of Fynn

Oh, and DQVIII recently came out on iOS. Yes, the full game with all the graphics. Only thing missing is the voice acting. Otherwise, it's exactly the same game.

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Obviously I should have clarified that more rather than using a specific example. Making DQVIII on a handheld is not the same as making a new DQVIII on a handheld. I don't accept this. Of course you can put a game from two generations ago on a handheld of today; that's not the point. I'm sure that in 5-10 years, you could put FFXIII as it exists now on a handheld with no problem. What you can't do is make a modern, current-gen equivalent on a handheld, just like you couldn't put a handheld version of DQVIII on a handheld in 2004.

I have never been immersed in a handheld game, and I've played a lot of them, and enjoyed a lot of them. It simply isn't the same. I haven't played the specific Xenoblade Chronicles example you have listed.

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Originally Posted by Spuuky

I'm sure that in 5-10 years, you could put FFXIII as it exists now on a handheld with no problem.

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You can do that soon actually because of one of their new projects which allows you to try out on pretty new mobile stuff. I have read only one article about it, though. It seems to give you the opportunity to try out a Final Fantasy for a while and probably even save files in a Cloud.

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Originally Posted by Freya

He omitted them because he was comparing it to the Uncharted series which is a PS3 Exclusive. It was to point out that even an exclusive did better. It probably also goes with the whole Sony is the JRPG powerhouse thing but I could just be putting words in his ... fingers?

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I guess that's as good as we're going to get but it's still hiding the numbers to make it look like interest in the game was lower than it actually was. A lot of people bought Xbox 360s when they knew they could play FFXIII on it, just like a lot more people started buying PS3s in 2009 when Uncharted 2 came out.

It does nothing to overcome overcome the obstacles to claiming JRPGs have declined, much less address the OP.

Ah my bad, I didn't mean to omit the 360 sales, I just assumed they were part of the total since the XIII page mentioned both systems, so I will admit I was wrong. It still doesn't change the fact Uncharted, even as a PS3 exclusive and not counting the Vita title, outsold the FFXIII trilogy. The number is just a 5 million difference instead of 8 million. My point stands that a story driven action game can deliver a grand story on par with an RPG that had little else to offer. It also has shwn the at the Sony FF fan market has in fact shrunk between console generations as the PS3 sales numbers I posted were not as good as the PS2 sales numbers.

As for Pokemon and FF still being popular, its true, but the consoles market has been very slow for FF and even SE is remarking it's not as profitable to keep making these big budget titles and we may see a future where FFXVI might be a handheld or mobile.

http://www.gmanetwork.com/news/story...console-market

I mean when the smurfing co-director is saying that if XV can't bring people back to the console market then I feel we have a problem. XIII was the fastest selling title, but considering it spent so much time in development, it may have broken even or turned a very modest profit at best and FFXV may be in the same boat where SE may need it to sell over 6 million units just to break even, whereas handhelds and mobiles have become more popular and profitable, especially in Japan which has a large commuter culture as Tabata mentioned in the interview. Type-0 may end up being a pre-test to see if XV may have issues, but considering it was a title that got little interest in the West to begin with, I doubt it will sell as well as it should.

Bolivar. you talk about how this is all hyperbole but don't back it up with proof as to why it isn't despite the issue that even the series creators are openly discussing the issue. I mean we're kind of looking at a point where the FF of yesteryear is no longer viable for today's market and may move with the rest of the genre into the domain of handhelds and mobile just to cut down on costs. The Triple A console FF may be gone soon and everyone is kind of noticing this, so explain how this is not the case? I'm calling your call of hyperbole out as hyperbole itself. I mean even SE itself, which has admitted several missteps this generation, is remarking how the current gaming client is just not good for console JRPGs, both the XIII sequels did not perform as well as X-2.

Actually it has a 7 million difference, I just pointed it out because that it only sold half as much is not true because Uncharted did not sell 24 million times while XIII sold 12 million times or FFXIII did not just sell 8 million times while Uncharted sold about as much as you thought, now even more.

I am actually sure that FFXV will boom the problem is that it now requires a new console again and that might keep the sales lower for a while than PS3 and XBox 360 would have done.