Oh Great Forums Readers...

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But Sephiroth had felt sadness before. Sephiroth would've been in his late 20s to early 30s before going crazy. Are you telling me that he never felt sad during that time? It was AFTER the Nibelheim e that Sephiroth started to believe that he was incapable of those emotions.

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He was approximately 30. And whether he did or did not was irrelevent - after he went insane, he thought that those emotions, for those like him anyway, were illusions.

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I would say Sephy's being sympathetic, and during the last line is showing sadness.

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First off, that's extremely subjective. Also, it's completely irrelevent since the scene you quoted was before he lost his mind.

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Come on... telling someone they what character from a video game they should like? :P So they like a character 'cause he's a pretty boy? So? I think we will all survive. :P

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I couldn't care less who they like. It's people who deny the fact that they adore Sephiroth for his looks and instead claim because "He's evil!" that get on my nerves.

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Okay, Suikoden II wasn't all that great and the storyline was weak with not so cool characters...Now Lunar SSSC, that freakin ruled. But it fails to produce a better villan than Sephiroth. And FFT just plain sucked.

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You have lost all respect from me as far as RPGs go. Your opinion no longer counts. (SPOILER)Ghaleon was the best villain in any RPG ever, and Luca Blight's a helluva lot better than Sephiroth.

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I mean cmon people, he is hands down just the greatest villan of all time and has the biggest fan base to prove it.

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Following that logic, Internet Explorer is the best internet browser.

I always assumed that Sephiroth told Cloud to "stop acting as if he's sad" because he thought that Cloud was a puppet, so therefore didn't consider CLOUD to be capable of emotion.

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Sephiroth: Stop acting as if you were sad. There's no need to
act as though you're angry either. Because, Cloud. You are...

Jenova: Because, you are...... a puppet.

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So I really don't think Sephiroth reprimanding Cloud for showing emotion has anything to do with how Sephiroth himself feels emotion, or a lack of. It's because he thinks of Cloud as a puppet, not a being capable of emotion.

And for the sake of arguement, assume Sephiroth truly thought himself incapable of saddness. Okay fine. I still don't get how that relates to what he said to Cloud. Sephiroth's an intelligent being. Why would he assume because he doesn't feel saddness that no one else feels sad as well? :-/ Just doesn't seem to make sense to me at least...

Sephiroth is way too overrated. He barely does anything besides (SPOILER)Destroy Nibelhiem Kefka was much cooler then him, he actually is evil. Best villian ever is probably Bison from Street Fighter, he's literally an evil that wouldn't die.

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So I really don't think Sephiroth reprimanding Cloud for showing emotion has anything to do with how Sephiroth himself feels emotion, or a lack of. It's because he thinks of Cloud as a puppet, not a being capable of emotion.

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What did Sephiroth think he was? A test-tube baby from Jenova. What did Sephiroth think Cloud was? A weaker test-tube baby from Jenova. Sephiroth thought of himself just as incapable of emotion as he thought Cloud was. It doesn't take much of a leap of logic to realize this.

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And for the sake of arguement, assume Sephiroth truly thought himself incapable of saddness. Okay fine. I still don't get how that relates to what he said to Cloud. Sephiroth's an intelligent being. Why would he assume because he doesn't feel saddness that no one else feels sad as well? Just doesn't seem to make sense to me at least...

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Argh, read what I've posted. He thought that he and Cloud were both nothing remotely human. He told Cloud to "stop pretending like you're sad" and was surprised by the display of emotion because he didn't think that CLOUD could feel emotions(not relating this to anyone else, just Cloud and Sephiroth.

Sephiroth knew he was created by fairly artificial means, yes, but he also sees himself as the "chosen one", and an up-and-coming god, not some mere puppet to Jenova. He sees himself as the offspring of Jenova, and for some time, a Cetra as well.

Sorry, I wasn't aiming my post at you in particular, I just honestly do not think Sephiroth sees himself as incapable of emotion. The only impression that I got from the game concerning this was that Sephiroth saw Cloud as useless, and inferior. I didn't see what he said as an indication on his state of emotional receptiveness or what not.

Gahhh, I can see how I'm being a little frustrating. I'm honestly having trouble explaining what I mean at the moment for some reason. :O_O:

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Sephiroth knew he was created by fairly artificial means, yes, but he also sees himself as the "chosen one", and an up-and-coming god, not some mere puppet to Jenova. He sees himself as the offspring of Jenova, and for some time, a Cetra as well.

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I agree...just what does that have to do with anything?

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Sorry, I wasn't aiming my post at you in particular, I just honestly do not think Sephiroth sees himself as incapable of emotion. The only impression that I got from the game concerning this was that Sephiroth saw Cloud as useless, and inferior. I didn't see what he said as an indication on his state of emotional receptiveness or what not.

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...The part where Sephiroth questions Cloud's ability to feel sadness doesn't blatantly scream that fact out to you?

As long as a villian is better than Golbez it doesn't really matter.

Sephiroth is the best because of his story.

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Originally Posted by Raistlin

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Originally Posted by Camanche

Sorry, I wasn't aiming my post at you in particular, I just honestly do not think Sephiroth sees himself as incapable of emotion. The only impression that I got from the game concerning this was that Sephiroth saw Cloud as useless, and inferior. I didn't see what he said as an indication on his state of emotional receptiveness or what not.

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...The part where Sephiroth questions Cloud's ability to feel sadness doesn't blatantly scream that fact out to you?

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To me it doesn't. The only time we find Sephiroth speaking of his emotions, he's saying he doesn't have a reason to be sad and seems elated, something that certainly qualifies as an emotion:

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Cloud
"What about MY sadness!? My family... friends... The sadness of
having my hometown taken away from me!?"
"It's the same as your sadness!"

(Sephiroth stands by Jenova, his arms raised, holding his sword high.)

Sephiroth
"Ha, ha, ha... my sadness? What do I have to be sad about?"
"I am the chosen one. I have been chosen to be the leader of this Planet."
"I have orders to take this planet back from you stupid people
for the Cetra. What am I supposed to be sad about?"

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What the Sephiroth form says to Cloud in the City of the Ancients only seemed like one of many attempts at taunting him to me and setting him up for the massive assault of self-doubt he/she/it would render unto him later. Granted, that's only my interpretation of that particular event, but the words that the Sephiroth form within the Northern Crater uses against Cloud suggests that he was telling him that he was something inferior and couldn't feel emotions as a result of that:

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Cloud
"Sephiroth! I know you're listening! I know what you want to say!"

(He shakes his head)

Cloud
"That I wasn't in Nibelheim five years ago."
"That's it, isn't it?"

(A blink of white, a gong of a church bell, and Sephiroth is there.)

Sephiroth
"I see you finally understand."

Cloud
"What you are trying to say is that you want to confuse me,
right?"
"But... even making me see those things won't affect me."
"I remember it all. The heat of the fire... the pain in my
body... and in my heart!"

(Sephiroth shakes his head grimly.)

Sephiroth
"Oh, is that so?"
"You are just a puppet... you have no heart... and cannot feel
any pain..."
"How can there be any meaning in the memory of such a being?"
"What I have shown you is reality. What you remember, that is
the illusion."

(Cloud shrugs. He walks right up to Sephiroth.)

Sephiroth
"...Do you understand?"

Cloud
"I don't want to understand."

(He turns away from him.)

Cloud
"But, I want to ask you one thing. Why... why are you doing
this?"

(A blink of white. Sephiroth appears in front of Cloud, between Tifa and
Cid, his arms raised. They run to stand beside Cloud.)

Sephiroth
"Ha, ha, ha......"
"I want to take you back to your real self."
"The one who gave me the Black Materia that day..."
"Who would have ever thought a failed experiment would prove so useful?"
"Hojo would die if he knew."

(Cloud steps forward)

Cloud
"Hojo!? What does he have to do with me!?"

(Sephiroth lowers his arms.)

Sephiroth
"Five years ago you were..."
"...constructed by Hojo, piece by piece, right after Nibelheim
was burnt."
"A puppet made up of vibrant Jenova cells, her knowledge, and the power of Mako."
"An incomplete Sephiroth-clone. Not even given a number. ...That is your reality."

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(Bolded for emphasis.)

Now let's examine what Sephiroth says of himself in Nibelheim and what the Sephiroth form seen in the Temple of the Ancients says concerning itself:

(In the Mt. Nibel Mako Reactor.)

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Sephiroth
"Ha, ha, ha... my sadness? What do I have to be sad about?"
"I am the chosen one. I have been chosen to be the leader of this Planet."
"I have orders to take this planet back from you stupid people
for the Cetra. What am I supposed to be sad about?"

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(Bolded for emphasis.)

(In the Temple of the Ancients.)

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"I'm far superior to the Ancients."
"I became a traveler of the Lifestream and gained the knowledge and wisdom of the Ancients."
"I also gained the knowledge and wisdom of those after the
extinction of the Ancients."
"And soon, I will create the future."

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(Bolded for emphasis.)

Derogatory, inferior terms were used by the Sephiroth forms to describe Cloud, whereas Sephiroth in Nibelheim and the Sephiroth form in the Temple of the Ancients speak highly of himself/itself. The Sephiroth forms' points in saying those things to Cloud seem to be to be intended to convey a sense of inferiority to him concerning himself, and certainly not to suggest that he was the same as Sephiroth.

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Originally Posted by Raistlin

I agree...just what does that have to do with anything?

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It has to do with the fact that Sephiroth sees himself differently then how he sees Cloud. He sees himself as better, not inferior, like he believes Cloud to be. He sees Cloud as one of those 'created' beings, that were lesser than himself, and not even capable of emotions because they were puppets- something to be used- not something that could have their own emotions and feelings.

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...The part where Sephiroth questions Cloud's ability to feel sadness doesn't blatantly scream that fact out to you?

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Not, really.... no. The only thing it screams out to me is that Sephiroth thinks little of Cloud; not of his own ability to feel emotions. I've always thought Sephiroth had shown a wide array of emotions throughout the game, and I never recall him denying his ability to feel them.

EDIT: I just kind of thought of somethine else. The Sephiroth we speak to throughout the game is just one of his projected 'forms'. Now, I'm a little iffy on this whole concept, but is the projected forms of Sephiroth consciously controlled by Sephiroth, Jenova, or both?

Because if the forms are controlled by Jenova, than technically, none of things that Sephiroth says have much truth to them- they are more of what Jenova thinks and tells Cloud to screw with his mind and what not. As far as I know, that only time we truly get to speak to the 'real' Sephiroth is after we drop his crystalized body into the Northern Crater upon giving him the Black Materia. So, basically, at the final showdown at the end of the game. And, well, in the flashback as well we see the real Sephiroth, even though he's gone loony in the last part of it.

Sephiroth is the greatest because people could relate to him. With Kefka, it was just "look, he's destroying the world. Cool." With Sephiroth it was like "look, he gonna destroy the world, he's gone mad! SEPHIROTH! NO!"
Bit dramatised but I think you get my drift. It's not really about hating Sephiroth, it's about loving the fact of the actions that made him pure evil. I heard a quote once that said "People hate a good villian, but love a great one." I think it's very true in this case.

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Sorry, ravenzero+numbers but I just wanted to ask you another thing... do you have any sense of humor?

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Yes I do, but its a very dry sense of humor...like people suffering and bleeding, thats funny...so is horrible destruction...and as for your little comments, 1. He is a differant kind of evil than you are used to odviously, but your little incomprehenible mind cant...comprehend that from what I can see. 2. Yea, he's insanse...what's not great about that? I mean what villan is complete without insanity...AND..as Aerostotale once said "There can be no great genius without a mixture of madness." Making Sephiroth even cooler. 3. He is one tough son of a bitch, it took me 6 months to beat him without the Knights of the Round materia...DAMN CHOCOBO BREEDING!...and just play the game and you'll find out how bad he really is. (but you have to pay attention too, not ADD all over the place).

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Internet Explorer is the best internet browser.

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Yea right, most viruses and hackers are targeted specifically at Internet Explorer...unless you have a dozen virus protection files that update constantly...CONSTANTLY...but if you want a good internet...thingy...go with FireFox. That thing rules.

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You have lost all respect from me as far as RPGs go. Your opinion no longer counts.

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Okay...fine...dont really care about respect...DEATH TO THE FLYING OOMPA LOOMPA MONKIES!!

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Originally Posted by ravenzero2000

Yea right, most viruses and hackers are targeted specifically at Internet Explorer...unless you have a dozen virus protection files that update constantly...CONSTANTLY...but if you want a good internet...thingy...go with FireFox. That thing rules.

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Wow, you really lost that analogy. I'm not even going to bother explaining it because it should be pretty obvious.

ravenzero2000: go back to my post, and reread the part about Internet Explorer. Maybe then you'll get it.

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Originally Posted by ravenzero2000

Yes I do, but its a very dry sense of humor...like people suffering and bleeding, thats funny...so is horrible destruction...

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Ummm... ok... that's a... "weird" sense of humor. :eyebrow:

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Originally Posted by ravenzero2000

and as for your little comments, 1. He is a differant kind of evil than you are used to odviously, but your little incomprehenible mind cant...comprehend that from what I can see. 2. Yea, he's insanse...what's not great about that? I mean what villan is complete without insanity...AND..as Aerostotale once said "There can be no great genius without a mixture of madness." Making Sephiroth even cooler. 3. He is one tough son of a bitch, it took me 6 months to beat him without the Knights of the Round materia...DAMN CHOCOBO BREEDING!...and just play the game and you'll find out how bad he really is. (but you have to pay attention too, not ADD all over the place).

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Well... if YOUR little incomprehenible mind don't even understand what Raistlin meant by the IE thing... like I said... :rolleyes2 And even though Sephiroth may be a "different kind" of evil, he's still not even close to being as evil as most villains are and should be. I'v never said that Sephiroth is a bad villain though. He's indeed a very good villain... but there's ALOT of villains who are much better at playing the role as villains. If you think Spehiroth is the best because he's evil and insane... then I really don't understand how you can think he's better than Kefka. Kefka is much more evil and insane in every way... and not even Kefka is the most evil and insane villain.
And finally... it took you 6 months? Mind if I laugh? :)
I guess you'll refuse to belive this but I defeated Sephiroth with solo Vincent at level 72, first and crappiest equippment + no materia at all equiped in 1 day. Now... if I could beat him that way, it doesn't really makes him seem all that hard, does it? And on top of that, this battle was very EASY compared to many other battles I've tried out.

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Originally Posted by ravenzero2000

I mean cmon people, he is hands down just the greatest villan of all time and has the biggest fan base to prove it.

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Originally Posted by Raistlin

Following that logic, Internet Explorer is the best internet browser.

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Originally Posted by ravenzero2000

Yea right, most viruses and hackers are targeted specifically at Internet Explorer...unless you have a dozen virus protection files that update constantly...CONSTANTLY...but if you want a good internet...thingy...go with FireFox. That thing rules.

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*NO COMMENT* :greenie:

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Originally Posted by ravenzero2000

Okay...fine...dont really care about respect...DEATH TO THE FLYING OOMPA LOOMPA MONKIES!!

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:rolleyes2

Let's, uh, settle down, guys :p.