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The religion of Islam does not hate anyone. It is the leaders of the middle-eastern countries that do hate others. Since they are muslims, they are using the religion as a cover for themselves. I can't stress this enough.
The poll results can be wrong. The poll was taken in most middle-eastern countries, and some of other countries in Asia. What the poll didn't count were the rest of the other muslims living around the world who, unlike those in middle-east, have a free will of their own.
the redneck, your the good guys? destroyed 2 countries with no results. killed thousands of people on false pretence in a war illegal what ever way you read the rules of war. responsible for the deaths of millions in africa, has spect the majority of it's existence "at war" (hasn't actually declared it in most of them), guilty of allowing torture in iraq, afghanistan, cuba and at home, at when it gets too tought ships it's prisoners to countries where they can boil them alive. uses sweatshops for it's industry, paid no money to vietnam for destroing it's forests, called darfur genocide yet did nothing, wacthes as sea levels, aids spreads in africa and millions die a year. at what point am i to belive has any redeeming qualites never mind are the good guys?
and still noone has explained what my choice of watching explains exactly.
the people who hate you hate you because you support a country guilty of occupation, invade countries which have shown no aggression towards you and is corrupt to the very core in so many ways it's too long to list. the attrocities above covers just a few.
terrorism has never been defeated before, aggression against it fuels it, the IRA were only stopped with negotiations (and the loss of a helicopter of the mull of kintyre).
if you kill a father his offspring will grow up to hate you and attack. listen to his father and the offspring learns humanity and mercy.
Could 9, the only reply that immediately comes to mind is Are You Serious?
But to elaborate, let's take it from the top, shall we?
Which would be why the residents of those two countries can now do things like vote, eat, speak against their leader, walk around without a burkha/hijab/abayah and not be burned alive, etc.? If only all Arabic countries could be so thoroughly "destroyed." And I ain't joking.Quote:
destroyed 2 countries with no results.
First of all, the "false pretense" line--it's false. Absolutely, plainly, bald-faced false, and to say such a thing indicates that you either know nothing about this war or that you're lying through your teeth--I'll be nice, as the forums seem to require of me, and assume you spoke through ignorance rather than intent to libel. We had: a) first, the WMD--our intelligence was sure he had them, British intelligence was sure he had them, French intelligence thought he'd have a nuke by '05, Russian intelligence was sure he had them--in fact, every nation that had an intelligence network was certain he had them; the Clinton administration, for example, had no problem telling us about Sodom's WMD during the Impeachment Bombing of '98. b) Sodom's terrorist connections; not only with Al-Quaeda, but with several other terrorist organizations, among the least of them being Sodom's payments of 25 grand to homicide bombers in Israel, his plane-hijacking training facility in Salmon Pak, and numerous other camps. c) his treatment of his own people--the information on that is widely available, and if you refuse to see it that is no problem of mine. d) violation of 17 different UN resolutions. e) our own duty--we promised the Kurds back in '92 that we would get rid of this bastard, and when they took us at our word and instead we listened to the UN and left Sodom in charge, he took advantage of the time to suppress all opposition in an unspeakably brutal manner. We owed them, and it's about time we delivered. f) Firing on our planes--the ones enforcing the no-fly zone so Sodom couldn't gas his own people to death. Let me repeat this--the SOB was shooting at us. You think Bush jumped the gun? If it'd been me there'd have been troops on the way within the hour of his first rocket fired.Quote:
killed thousands of people on false pretence in a war illegal what ever way you read the rules of war
This you'll have to explain some, because it looks like a crock to me.Quote:
esponsible for the deaths of millions in africa,
How DARE we defend ourselves! I take it back--we are evil! It must be because of the capitalism.Quote:
has spect the majority of it's existence "at war" (hasn't actually declared it in most of them),
Ahh, yes--because making a few terrorists stay awake and draping the Israeli flag over them to make them help us stop their compatriots from murdering as many men, women, and children as they can is simply a crime of epic proportions.Quote:
guilty of allowing torture in iraq, afghanistan, cuba
This, on the other hand, I'm going to have to plain and simply call BS.Quote:
and at home,
I'm not sure whether my lack of knowledge here is regarding news sources or biology--but either way, I have no idea where you pulled this from.Quote:
at when it gets too tought ships it's prisoners to countries where they can boil them alive.
Have you wondered why those "sweatshops" never have trouble finding workers? An American company goes overseas and doubles the area's standard of living, and you call this a crime?Quote:
uses sweatshops for it's industry
You mean we didn't pay a communist regime for invading our allies? Oh, the SHAME!Quote:
paid no money to vietnam for destroing it's forests,
Wait a minute--you called us criminals because we went to war to stop unspeakable acts from going on in Iraq... yet we're criminals because we're not going to war to stop unspeakable acts from going on in Sudan? But wait, wait! We ARE doing something! And maybe, if the UN doesn't care like it didn't about Iraq, we'll have to take care of it ourselves. And when we do that, you can call us genocidal criminals again. Or, apparently, if we don't, you can call us genocidal criminals again. I'm starting to notice a pattern here.....Quote:
called darfur genocide yet did nothing
I assume you mean "watches as sea levels rise". We also watch as they lower in some places. Refusing to cripple our country on the basis of anti-American junk-science hysteria is not a black mark on our country; to the contrary, in fact.Quote:
wacthes as sea levels,
Fifteen Billion ain't enough? We are doing something about AIDS in Africa--like your Darfur claim, this accusation is false.Quote:
aids spreads in africa and millions die a year
That would probably be the point where you quit watching Al-Jazeera and look at what's actually going on in the world around you.Quote:
at what point am i to belive has any redeeming qualites never mind are the good guys?
Look at the paragraph directly above that quote. If you don't get it; don't worry. The rest of us do.Quote:
and still noone has explained what my choice of watching explains exactly.
Considering that the accusations you've made are all false so far, it stands to reason there's a different cause.Quote:
the people who hate you hate you because you support a country guilty of occupation, invade countries which have shown no aggression towards you and is corrupt to the very core in so many ways it's too long to list. the attrocities above covers just a few.
The people who hate us hate us because we aren't muslim and we won't let them kill Jews. The above-mentioned people have been very clear on that in their own statements.
T-Man, then perhaps you can explain why 90+% of the violence in the world just happens to be centered on islam?
Just curious, but have you read the 9/11 Commission report, as well as the three or four other reports that came out in the last few years?
Take care all.
None of those reports would matter in this debate unless they disputed any of what The Redneck has said, and they don't, because up to this point everything The Redneck has said has been factual.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Captain
Yes, the 9/11 Commission established that there wasn't a connection between Saddam and 9/11. We know, we know. But again I say, unless I'm severely mistaken, it did not establish that Saddam and Al-Queda had absolutely nothing to do with each other.
your two main aims were both failed in iraw and afghanistan. to make the world a safer place. osama bin laden slipped between your fingers, iraq is now in a hugely shaky state, terrorist support has now grew massively, no wmd's were stopped, and thousands of innocents were killed. is this your great victory? when you don't even meet the most basic of objectives?
and it was a false pretence, colonel powell openly lied in front of the U. remember that slideshow? the one where he showed satelite images of weapon bunkers, mobile testing labs. turned out there was no such thing. not that you can't find them. you had a bloody massive satellite observing it 24 hours a day it's very hard to loss a massive reprocessing factory or chemical weapons factory. russia in fact said that mobile labs were not feasible and opposed that idea.
sadamme had no terrorist connections to al-qaeda that is without a doubt. they hated each other, bin laden saw him as an infidel on holy soil and sadamme saw him as trouble, the only thing bin laden would have done for sadamme is to remove his brains.
yes he treated his people badly but in no way was the worst dictator this world has so why choose him for invasion over that? if you want to do some good there a re long lost of other oppressed countries needing a bit of liberation.
sadamme was scared stiff of doing anything that might piss off the un and tihgten the sanctions against him. he had no interest in israel, wmd or terrorism as he was too busy trying to keep the status quo and stop any kind of revolt or invasion.
you broke your promise to the kurds when you left them to be slaughtered why go back now and kill thousand more innocents?
africa is being starved because of horrific interest rates placed on debts it has. you could claim that it took up these loans to pay for war and so deserve it. but do you really think that millions of people a year deserve to die because their government took out a loan which you provided and now has interest that it plainly cannot afford. there are countries there which can barely pay off the interest each year let alone the loan itself.
actually the majority of us wars have not been in self defence, viet-cam-laos, korea, both iraq wars, phillipines,
the torture that goes on my american forces is far worse than draping an israeli flag (which actually itself is illegal in the geneva code), read about men who have been released and what they have said goes on and stop thinking that is a halo over your country's head.
there have been reports of terroists being tortured inside america as well as out, those who have been arrest on american soil before being shipped out.
it's a well known fact that america has sent it's prisoners to other countries which have far worse torture than america has, such as placing in boiling water, stretching, beatings, electrodes. i suggest you look into it, provides some intersting reading.
now do i call slave labour a crime or not..... oh no i'm sorry for making that comment slave labour is perfectly fine. taking someone out of the rubbish yep and paying them just enough to feed their family if they and their children work 60 hours a week is hardly nice now is it? whatever happened to a fair wage for a days work?
you attacked vietnam with provocation and destroyed some of the most beautiful forests noone to man, killed people int heir thousands, raped and pillaged, then left and left them to pick up the pieces? is that justice for you? destroying the lives of millions of innocent people and the forest on which they and endangered animals require to survive doesn't need some kind of reparation? or would this just take another slim dollar out of america's fat fist?
my point about darfur is that it's such a hypocritcal thing to do and calls everything else into question. why invade iraq on human grounds when a far worse attrocity was occuring killing hundreds of thousands and displacing millions? what choice was made there? iraqi lives are worth more or was there something of more worth in iraq?
the rise in global temperature, greenhouse gases and sea level is indisputable and it's not anti-american to say that the worlds biggest polluter is somehow more guilty of causing pollution than others. as i said before choose not to believe science if you want but i will be more than happy to see manhattan sink.
aids in afirca is not helped by america charing extortianite amounts for copyrighted pills that plunge these countries further into debt.
because i watch 5 news programs regurlarly i'm regarded as gaing false information. I watch all 5 and take from each what is said in both of them, can be believed and where common sense is involved. i don't gobble up all information that is passed onto me like a pig with swill.
not all muslims hate america and not people who hate america are muslims. i for one hate the american country (not the people). and i am not muslim not everyone who hates america watches al-jazeera either. there is a growing concensus in the world that america is an evil state and the reason why this is so must be examined rather than laying the blame on a religion that preaches peace.
Okay. I'll admit it.
America is the reason that all the other countries can't take care of themselves.
If only all Americans would just... just... DIE!
The sacrifice would cause the earth to spring forth lush food bearing plants for the Africans, Asians, South Americans, poverty stricken men and women and especially children in Europe, and just about everybody else. All the middle east would instantly become peace loving people who could barely argue over what channel to watch on the television without wincing in pain of conscience from their peace god, Allah. Terrorism would be a forgotten concept, buried forever with the mysteries of the pyramids and all that other freaky, mind boggling nonsense that nobody understands or repeats. Debts would literally phase out of existence. Happiness would abound in the soul of every creature in existence, human and inhuman.
All of you will find true love!
We will finally evolve wings so we can fly to mars!
Peaceful alienbs will come and pay us for what THEY wanted to learn!
Wrong would become right and right would remain right! Janis Joplin would emerge from her grave to make more great music, but she wouldn't be American. She'd be Finnish or something.
Everything would be great.
Unfortunately, us Americans are too freaking thick-headed to allow this fate to befall the Earth. Sorry. You'll have to kill us. But you can't. You've tried, but it isn't effective. And since you can't, you want to whine about us killing you in retaliation.
You're like a bunch of corporate slackjobs who want to be promoted for having the best office Tetris record. And then you whine about going to jail for trying to murder the boss or some crap. Sorry. No, wait, I'm not sorry. Produce something or do something and maybe you'll have something.
Look at Japan, ya know? They got nuked, and now they're kicking ass anyway.
I have no sympathy for any of you.
Note: And if you haven't tried to kill us yet, if you're only in on it to whine, then you still have every opportunity to shut up.
Note 2: Now that I think of it, religion has nothing to do with any of this. If people were more religious, then they'd probably get more psychological benefits from believing in some deity or spiritual lifestyle. But that sounds as irrelevant to the current conversation as it would if I brought up how much I like to eat sardines.
I like sardines.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And there were reasons to attack Iraq over other targets. My disaggrement with the war is more to deal with timing and handling rather then where and whether it happened.
-Iraq was weak
good way to stretch our military muscles, not to mention we could aviod the mass civilian casalties that seem to occur in bigger wars.
However if we were just looking for a weak country ot attack, well africa also could use the help we are delievering to the Iraqi's, perhaps moreso.
-Iraq is well placed.
Iraq's location is good for future assults into the countries that abuse thier peoples(after all the US should focus on Helping people.. so we are). Africa would be well placed only to help other Africans, Iraq is in the middle, we can help the ME and the Africans.. imagine that.
-Sadam is well known.
This helps get our message accross. Talking out a ruler who is well known for his abuse and atrocities will tell everyone that we mean buisness. Afterall, when you think abusive ruler many people would have said Sadam or Iraq a while ago... or at least at my school that is what happened.
All are good reason for Iraq.
Korea isn't well placed, even if they had publicity before the war. However they also may have caused massive casulties... which wouldn't be good. so Iraq was an obvious choice.. we just mismanaged some of it and attacked to early, IMO.
"None of those reports would matter in this debate unless they disputed any of what The Redneck has said, and they don't, because up to this point everything The Redneck has said has been factual.
Yes, the 9/11 Commission established that there wasn't a connection between Saddam and 9/11. We know, we know. But again I say, unless I'm severely mistaken, it did not establish that Saddam and Al-Queda had absolutely nothing to do with each other."
They also established that the WMD charges and intelligence were flawed to begin with but were still used anyway, which is relevant to this debate.
Take care all.
martyr if you want to debate, debate. if you want to have a cheap bit of sarcasm with little meaning to the conversation there is a time and the place. but i'll respond anyway.
i have nothing against americans like i have nothing against terrorists. i dislike america as a country, cluture and society. it's power and abuse of it is a source for many of the world's problems, noone hates sweden now do they. because they sit their helping who needs help and keeping out of things that are none of their business. america and the world bank must take responsibilty for the millions of deaths in africa, must take the blame for vietnam and the surrounding countriess, must take the blame for spirally co2 levels, for the destruction of the rainforest, for the extinction of hundreds of animals, for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent people in war, for the ripping off of foreign struggling farmers. all this must be taken account for. terrorists don't hate democracy, non-muslims or freedom, they hate america. if they hated the other things they would attack countries like sweden, switzerland, canada, finland. but they don't because they have no reason to. they hate america for what it is, a greedy, aggressive, forceful and corrupt country. and that's my and many other people's reason too.
Ummm...THe USa should not be responsible to puck up their debts. But the World bank does need repair. It is the responsiblity of society to help those in need, not just one figure. We over spend, over eat, whilst people suffer. This shows that we need reforms in our international affairs, this goes for all countries.
if you loaned a man money. now he is homeless, dirty and starving to death would you still come around each day and demand the interest and the debt off him?
What else can you do?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloud No.9
Failure does not absolve any man of responsibility.
I maintain that this is all nonsense. All the stuff against the USA.
It seems far more likely that people hate America becasue they want it's power, not because it is dangerous to innocents.
If America was some greedy, evil empire, then the world would understand. Any kind of terrorist or 2 bit organization that gets pissed about the most powerful thing or country cannot be trusted any further than it can be accused of manipulation.
If Sweden calls America wicked, then it'd be cause for the world to consider calling America wicked. Numbskulls who can't dig their way out of a desert because they can't find peace within themselves are about the poorest sources for truth that I can possibly think of.
What is detestable about Americans in general anyway? People avoid all this. All the overseas war stuff is what people copmplain about. You complain about corrupt politicians. I don't think that non-corrupt politicians exist anywhere on this planet.
I want a reason! I want to know why you hate ME!
Is it possible to still find them on the net or anything?Quote:
Originally Posted by The Captain
Uh, tyrannical dictators gone, people choosing their own leaders. You're wrong again.Quote:
your two main aims were both failed in iraw and afghanistan.
Except we've found both of those things. You're wrong again.Quote:
remember that slideshow? the one where he showed satelite images of weapon bunkers, mobile testing labs. turned out there was no such thing.
Except the ones noted here, those noted here, and others... You're wrong again--I'm gonna just start abbreviating that.Quote:
Sadamme had no terrorist connections to al-qaeda that is without a doubt.
See the list in the third post above yours.Quote:
yes he treated his people badly but in no way was the worst dictator this world has so why choose him for invasion over that?
Which is why he openly defied the UN 17 times? YWA.Quote:
sadamme was scared stiff of doing anything that might piss off the un and tihgten the sanctions against him.
YWAQuote:
he had no interest in israel,
You mean we loan them money and expect them to pay it back! Oh, hell, I guess we better forgive their debts so their governments have more money to oppress them. Seeing as other countries (including the USA) that have debts but don't have oppressive tyrannical regimes aren't starving, YWA.Quote:
africa is being starved because of horrific interest rates placed on debts it has
Ahh, thanks for clarifying; we have your permission to defend ourselves (at least I suppose so--by all means correct me if I'm wrong there), just not our allies. Thanks for clearing that up!Quote:
actually the majority of us wars have not been in self defence, viet-cam-laos, korea, both iraq wars, phillipines,
First, the Geneva Convention does not apply to terrorists. Second, I'd like to see something resembling proof of these wild accusations.Quote:
the torture that goes on my american forces is far worse than draping an israeli flag (which actually itself is illegal in the geneva code),
Reports? From who, Al-Jazeera?Quote:
there have been reports of terroists being tortured inside america as well as out,
Well, if it's well-known, there should be some evidence of it, right? How about you provide me with some of that intersting (sic) reading?Quote:
t's a well known fact that america has sent it's prisoners to other countries which have far worse torture than america has, such as placing in boiling water, stretching, beatings, electrodes. i suggest you look into it, provides some intersting reading.
Thank you for clarifying your position on slave labor. Now if we could get back to the subject?Quote:
now do i call slave labour a crime or not..... oh no i'm sorry for making that comment slave labour is perfectly fine.
It's how my father raised me, and someday I'll probably do the same to raise my own kids. If these jobs were so horrible do you think they'd be lining up to get them?Quote:
taking someone out of the rubbish yep and paying them just enough to feed their family if they and their children work 60 hours a week is hardly nice now is it?
No, we didn't, and anyone claiming we did (up to and including John Kerry) is lying through their teeth.Quote:
You attacked vietnam with provocation and destroyed some of the most beautiful forests noone to man, killed people int heir thousands, raped and pillaged, then left and left them to pick up the pieces?
Let me repeat: in Iraq, we went to the UN first. In Darfur, we're going to the UN first. Doing the exact same thing both times doesn't qualify as hypocrisy--in other words, YWA.Quote:
my point about darfur is that it's such a hypocritcal thing to do and calls everything else into question. why invade iraq on human grounds when a far worse attrocity was occuring killing hundreds of thousands and displacing millions?
indisputable? You sure about that? A definite rise in temperature? And of course, due to eeeeeevil capitalism? You're really, really sure?Quote:
the rise in global temperature, greenhouse gases and sea level is indisputable
Because we're the evil people who want to see Africans die, right?Quote:
but i will be more than happy to see manhattan sink.
And is it helped by the thousands of American charity organizations and billions of dollars in government money coming in to help them? Or is it all negated because those eeeevil capitalists have this wierd idea that they should be paid for their work?Quote:
aids in afirca is not helped by america charing extortianite amounts for copyrighted pills that plunge these countries further into debt.
Then how come all we see from this diligent process is the swill?Quote:
i don't gobble up all information that is passed onto me like a pig with swill.
Nope. Just around 80%.Quote:
not all muslims hate america and not people who hate america are muslims.
Except for the ones in Manhattan, apparently.Quote:
i for one hate the american country (not the people).
Martyr--
*sniff* That was beautiful....