Most unreasonably disliked FF title! Now with 33% more fan bias!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ,,,

Now if you'd like to talk about FFIV and Kain in a more civil manner that's great, but you're not going to act like a dick anymore. I'm not going to use this space to boast about my intelligence, but I will say I'm pretty freaking far from being stupid and I will not put up with being talked down to. Put the e-penis away, cause seriously, no one wants to look at that thing.

---

ok... I'm pretty sure we can discuss this without having to bring up our "e-penises"...lol

man, I'm sorry if I offended you, I think this all results from a misunderstanding moreso than a disagreement. I'm glad we can both agree that FFIV is a pretty great game with a good storyline. My point was that the love triangle is one of the few, if not the only, ways in which Kain acts like someone who isn't stuck inside a video game. You elaborated on it very well, and again, it was never my intention to talk down to you or anything like that.

But as far as this:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Wow... that entire retort was not even a retort but a clever attack on me. You basically said I was wrong about Barrett without giving any evidence on the contrary from within the game but instead basically saying "you're just wrong and I'm right!" and then said it was beneath you to bother with any of my more compelling arguments cause I obviously didn't "get" Barrett while accusing me of giving baseless, personal arguments...

Your logic astounds me

---

I guess the best way to go about this would be to just bold a few things:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bolivar

Barret is just as much the stereotypical anti-establishment "black guy" as Kain is the stereotypical jelous best-friend. Except Barret's whole hometown was murdered at the hands of the forward march of capitalism. What's Kain's reason? Oh yeah, there is none...

It's hard for me to take the rest of your post serious, especially the end (Barret's discussion of Midgar's situation). It only re-confirms that you indeed missed alot from the games that came out on Sony consoles. For the sake of ",,," not calling this baseless, I will say that 1) It showed that what Japan and America have termed "progress" is not always best for everyone and 2) It is later revealed that it is only one perspective, as constantly throughout the game the player is also hit with reasons on why Shinra is good. And on the 2nd disc, Barret realizes that both sides indeed have their merit, and comes to realize that it's not a clear-cut issue. So if you could explain to me how this development falls under "stereotypical black guy!" and everything else you completely ignore and marginalize, maybe I could start taking you more seriously.

---

So there are two examples of when I cited evidence within the game that Barret isn't just the "stereotypical angry black guy!" yet you accuse me of

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

basically saying "you're just wrong and I'm right!"

---

So not only have you demonstrated that you, as i stated twice now, have missed (or maybe just forgotten) what occurs in the game, but you are either ignoring or just not reading what I said in my post.

If the irony wasn't overwhelming enough, you accuse me of taking your opinion "too seriously" yet you succeeded (yet again) in producing a 1,000+ word response to what I had to say.

Umm....okay

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bolivar

man, I'm sorry if I offended you

---

Alright, it's cool =)

i'd have to say VIII has always had the most critisism in my opinion, always in the shadow of VII.
then IX was a GREAT game, but i could barely ever find someone to talk with about it, everyone was still on VII's nuts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bolivar

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ,,,

Now if you'd like to talk about FFIV and Kain in a more civil manner that's great, but you're not going to act like a dick anymore. I'm not going to use this space to boast about my intelligence, but I will say I'm pretty freaking far from being stupid and I will not put up with being talked down to. Put the e-penis away, cause seriously, no one wants to look at that thing.

---

ok... I'm pretty sure we can discuss this without having to bring up our "e-penises"...lol

man, I'm sorry if I offended you, I think this all results from a misunderstanding moreso than a disagreement. I'm glad we can both agree that FFIV is a pretty great game with a good storyline. My point was that the love triangle is one of the few, if not the only, ways in which Kain acts like someone who isn't stuck inside a video game. You elaborated on it very well, and again, it was never my intention to talk down to you or anything like that.

But as far as this:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Wow... that entire retort was not even a retort but a clever attack on me. You basically said I was wrong about Barrett without giving any evidence on the contrary from within the game but instead basically saying "you're just wrong and I'm right!" and then said it was beneath you to bother with any of my more compelling arguments cause I obviously didn't "get" Barrett while accusing me of giving baseless, personal arguments...

Your logic astounds me

---

I guess the best way to go about this would be to just bold a few things:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bolivar

Barret is just as much the stereotypical anti-establishment "black guy" as Kain is the stereotypical jelous best-friend. Except Barret's whole hometown was murdered at the hands of the forward march of capitalism. What's Kain's reason? Oh yeah, there is none...

It's hard for me to take the rest of your post serious, especially the end (Barret's discussion of Midgar's situation). It only re-confirms that you indeed missed alot from the games that came out on Sony consoles. For the sake of ",,," not calling this baseless, I will say that 1) It showed that what Japan and America have termed "progress" is not always best for everyone and 2) It is later revealed that it is only one perspective, as constantly throughout the game the player is also hit with reasons on why Shinra is good. And on the 2nd disc, Barret realizes that both sides indeed have their merit, and comes to realize that it's not a clear-cut issue. So if you could explain to me how this development falls under "stereotypical black guy!" and everything else you completely ignore and marginalize, maybe I could start taking you more seriously.

---

So there are two examples of when I cited evidence within the game that Barret isn't just the "stereotypical angry black guy!" yet you accuse me of

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

basically saying "you're just wrong and I'm right!"

---

So not only have you demonstrated that you, as i stated twice now, have missed (or maybe just forgotten) what occurs in the game, but you are either ignoring or just not reading what I said in my post.

If the irony wasn't overwhelming enough, you accuse me of taking your opinion "too seriously" yet you succeeded (yet again) in producing a 1,000+ word response to what I had to say.

Umm....okay

---

1) Home town was destroyed cause Shin-ra betrayed them. It creates motive but Barrett spends the entire game running away from the fact he was responsible for this incedent. He's aware he's responsible and starts to make amends due to Dyne but its never resolved even though the game creates a perfect opportunity to do it. The real problem though is that Barrett is wraught with guilt over allowing Shin-Ra to destroy his home. Kain has jealousies between a friend who is not only well more liked and respected than he is but also has the heart of the woman he secretly loves. Between these two, a player may sympathize with Barrett more cause he's suffered worse, but they relate and understand Kain better cause his problems are not outside the realm of possibilities for average people. Yes this establishes why Barrett acts the way he does but the game never expands on it in a way to allow him to grow except...

2) Has epiphany that both sides are neither good or evil. Now while I will admit that this is rather deep and profound its a baseless statement when placed in context of the games story. Where does Barrett come up with this revelation? When does Shin-Ra ever redeem themselves and show a good side? Cause they tried to save the planet from the WEAPONS and Meteor? Please, they blame the whole thing on Avalanche, and their methods are almost as damaging to the planet as they things they are trying to stop. Also Shin-Ra never states why they did this other than we don't want the world to end. They are saving themselves and would probably never care about anyone else. Course this is assumption but either way you look at it, you can't confirm it was a selfless act. Besides, if Shin-ra redeemed themselves, why does the party spend the entire second disc trying to stop them from saving the planet?

This thread will probably be shut down but if you wish to continue discussing it through PM I am more than happy to do so. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

1) Home town was destroyed cause Shin-ra betrayed them. It creates motive but Barrett spends the entire game running away from the fact he was responsible for this incedent. He's aware he's responsible and starts to make amends due to Dyne but its never resolved even though the game creates a perfect opportunity to do it. The real problem though is that Barrett is wraught with guilt over allowing Shin-Ra to destroy his home. Kain has jealousies between a friend who is not only well more liked and respected than he is but also has the heart of the woman he secretly loves. Between these two, a player may sympathize with Barrett more cause he's suffered worse, but they relate and understand Kain better cause his problems are not outside the realm of possibilities for average people. Yes this establishes why Barrett acts the way he does but the game never expands on it in a way to allow him to grow except...

2) Has epiphany that both sides are neither good or evil. Now while I will admit that this is rather deep and profound its a baseless statement when placed in context of the games story. Where does Barrett come up with this revelation? When does Shin-Ra ever redeem themselves and show a good side? Cause they tried to save the planet from the WEAPONS and Meteor? Please, they blame the whole thing on Avalanche, and their methods are almost as damaging to the planet as they things they are trying to stop. Also Shin-Ra never states why they did this other than we don't want the world to end. They are saving themselves and would probably never care about anyone else. Course this is assumption but either way you look at it, you can't confirm it was a selfless act. Besides, if Shin-ra redeemed themselves, why does the party spend the entire second disc trying to stop them from saving the planet?

This thread will probably be shut down but if you wish to continue discussing it through PM I am more than happy to do so. :)

---

woah! Kanno, back from the dead. I was gettin worried. Anyway, i forgot what the hell we were arguin about... I guess all i got to say to your post:

1) that doesn't seem to be what Barret's story is all about. The issue is resolved if you remember the Corel episode during the scramble for the Huge Materia *cough*Crystals*cough*. He and the miners realize that the blame is rightfully placed on Shinra, and that they're stronger working together. I can relate to to the concept of kain's struggle, but not to the character. There's no backstory to it and it's not delved into on any level...quite unlike Barret.

2) He discusses this if you talk to him on the highwind, i believe on the way to midgar. And i don't think i've ever said Shinra redeemed themselves. Save the Turks and Reeve, the whole of them act selfishly evil throughout the entire game, which is why I was surprised with Rufus expressing regret in Advent Children (i think the game intended him to stay dead). Barret instead realizes that not everyone who works for Shinra is evil, and comes to understand that his original methods weren't the right way to go about it. This is tremendous development, which is absent from older characters, like Kain. But I believe that Kain's refusal to deal with what he's done right away played well for the story of FFIV.

It's good to hear from you again and I hope all is well. Things have been pretty boring on here.

I'd just like to clear up something and play devil's advocate with something I read posted by Bolivar. Bolivar said there's no backstory to Kain's struggle with light and good. Thats wrong. The backstory between the two is Kain has (perhaps in his subconscious?) genuine envy toward Cecil, because at one time, Kain, was dating Rosa. I forget exactly where this is stated, if I remember, I will post it. This is why Golbez can get ahold of him and taint him, and why when he has Rosa tied up he says something along the lines "I will show that I am more powerful then your Cecil!".


Had to point that out, I can never sit by and watch someone talk about FFIV xD

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Goldenboko

I'd just like to clear up something and play devil's advocate with something I read posted by Bolivar. Bolivar said there's no backstory to Kain's struggle with light and good. Thats wrong. The backstory between the two is Kain has (perhaps in his subconscious?) genuine envy toward Cecil, because at one time, Kain, was dating Rosa. I forget exactly where this is stated, if I remember, I will post it. This is why Golbez can get ahold of him and taint him, and why when he has Rosa tied up he says something along the lines "I will show that I am more powerful then your Cecil!".


Had to point that out, I can never sit by and watch someone talk about FFIV xD

---

what i meant is the back story is never fleshed out in the game, and I've never seen it mentioned that Kain had dated Rosa. I've played through it twice, maybe it's missing from the GBA version, which I find hard to believe since it expanded the storyline.

I hope you don't get me wrong, I love IV, I just don't see its characters and story being compared to later titles - which i don't mean as a diss, it didn't need crazy depth to still be a classic game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bolivar

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Goldenboko

I'd just like to clear up something and play devil's advocate with something I read posted by Bolivar. Bolivar said there's no backstory to Kain's struggle with light and good. Thats wrong. The backstory between the two is Kain has (perhaps in his subconscious?) genuine envy toward Cecil, because at one time, Kain, was dating Rosa. I forget exactly where this is stated, if I remember, I will post it. This is why Golbez can get ahold of him and taint him, and why when he has Rosa tied up he says something along the lines "I will show that I am more powerful then your Cecil!".


Had to point that out, I can never sit by and watch someone talk about FFIV xD

---

what i meant is the back story is never fleshed out in the game, and I've never seen it mentioned that Kain had dated Rosa. I've played through it twice, maybe it's missing from the GBA version, which I find hard to believe since it expanded the storyline.

I hope you don't get me wrong, I love IV, I just don't see its characters and story being compared to later titles - which i don't mean as a diss, it didn't need crazy depth to still be a classic game.

---

Do you consider The Ultimania Guides as proper translations of storyline? If so, then you have to do the same with what was said about Rosa, Cecil and Kain.

Ultimania guides are cool, but they don't change what actually happens in a game. I'm not comparing or discussing each canon, but the merits of the games themselves. They made an Ultimania for IV?

No but somewhere (I'll try and get back to you where), they published some backstory to FFIV.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bolivar

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

1) Home town was destroyed cause Shin-ra betrayed them. It creates motive but Barrett spends the entire game running away from the fact he was responsible for this incedent. He's aware he's responsible and starts to make amends due to Dyne but its never resolved even though the game creates a perfect opportunity to do it. The real problem though is that Barrett is wraught with guilt over allowing Shin-Ra to destroy his home. Kain has jealousies between a friend who is not only well more liked and respected than he is but also has the heart of the woman he secretly loves. Between these two, a player may sympathize with Barrett more cause he's suffered worse, but they relate and understand Kain better cause his problems are not outside the realm of possibilities for average people. Yes this establishes why Barrett acts the way he does but the game never expands on it in a way to allow him to grow except...

2) Has epiphany that both sides are neither good or evil. Now while I will admit that this is rather deep and profound its a baseless statement when placed in context of the games story. Where does Barrett come up with this revelation? When does Shin-Ra ever redeem themselves and show a good side? Cause they tried to save the planet from the WEAPONS and Meteor? Please, they blame the whole thing on Avalanche, and their methods are almost as damaging to the planet as they things they are trying to stop. Also Shin-Ra never states why they did this other than we don't want the world to end. They are saving themselves and would probably never care about anyone else. Course this is assumption but either way you look at it, you can't confirm it was a selfless act. Besides, if Shin-ra redeemed themselves, why does the party spend the entire second disc trying to stop them from saving the planet?

This thread will probably be shut down but if you wish to continue discussing it through PM I am more than happy to do so. :)

---

woah! Kanno, back from the dead. I was gettin worried. Anyway, i forgot what the hell we were arguin about... I guess all i got to say to your post:

1) that doesn't seem to be what Barret's story is all about. The issue is resolved if you remember the Corel episode during the scramble for the Huge Materia *cough*Crystals*cough*. He and the miners realize that the blame is rightfully placed on Shinra, and that they're stronger working together. I can relate to to the concept of kain's struggle, but not to the character. There's no backstory to it and it's not delved into on any level...quite unlike Barret.

2) He discusses this if you talk to him on the highwind, i believe on the way to midgar. And i don't think i've ever said Shinra redeemed themselves. Save the Turks and Reeve, the whole of them act selfishly evil throughout the entire game, which is why I was surprised with Rufus expressing regret in Advent Children (i think the game intended him to stay dead). Barret instead realizes that not everyone who works for Shinra is evil, and comes to understand that his original methods weren't the right way to go about it. This is tremendous development, which is absent from older characters, like Kain. But I believe that Kain's refusal to deal with what he's done right away played well for the story of FFIV.

It's good to hear from you again and I hope all is well. Things have been pretty boring on here.

---

Glad to be back for awhile. Personal life has been taking a hit but in a good way. I'm always happy to have stimulating conversation with you Bolivar ;)

Anyway...

1) The problem with the Corel scene is that Barrett is optional; which brings me up to my earlier point of having a wonderful setup to let his character shine but its wasted. Barrett doesn't even have to be there and the townsfolk come to this revelation. Even if Barrett is in your party the scenario doesn't alter to put him in account which is really sad and disappointing. I know I give Barrett a lot of smack but I actually do like him. Granted having him there gives a sorta feeling it might affect him, his lack of interaction makes it a poor scene to cite as a revelation for his character.

Kain does have little in detail of backstory compared to Barrett but he makes up for it with actions and a few choice words. He confesses to Cecil after Golbez's defeat that even though he had been corrupted it was based on true feelings of envy and jealousy, his feelings for Rosa are shone true beforehand cause his first thought when he awoke was to save Rosa rather than face Cecil. He betrays you many times but counters by saving your party's life afterwards. When he permanently joins you he fights with Edge who still refuses to trust him (for good reason) and Kain honorably chooses the path to let Edge kill him if this scenario happened. In the end, Kain chooses to leave and take his own journey of redemption that Cecil took. He knows he is weak but he strives to be strong cause he knows he cannot be happy fulfilling his own selfish desires. Of anything Kain's ending speaks volumes of his character if you are willing to delve a little deeper.

2) Once again an almost optional scene but as I stated he never gives any evidence how Shin-Ra isn't evil and just comes up with this epiphany. Its mostly speculation. I must laugh cause at this point the whole party literally devolves into a 2nd grade class assignment of "What I learned on my journey with Cloud!" where every character magically tells you their wonderful epiphany in the game, except VII doesn't have Kefka telling you to "shut up and how you sound like pages from a self help booklit" ;) Granted half the character do have well thought out answers it's just that story evidence doesn't make Barrets nearly as compelling as say Cid's epiphany. Perhaps the reasons were there, but I can't agree that the story told it well. I still feel that VII does have good writing its just not spaced out as well as I would like which is my problem with VI and IV.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bolivar

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

1) Home town was destroyed cause Shin-ra betrayed them. It creates motive but Barrett spends the entire game running away from the fact he was responsible for this incedent. He's aware he's responsible and starts to make amends due to Dyne but its never resolved even though the game creates a perfect opportunity to do it. The real problem though is that Barrett is wraught with guilt over allowing Shin-Ra to destroy his home. Kain has jealousies between a friend who is not only well more liked and respected than he is but also has the heart of the woman he secretly loves. Between these two, a player may sympathize with Barrett more cause he's suffered worse, but they relate and understand Kain better cause his problems are not outside the realm of possibilities for average people. Yes this establishes why Barrett acts the way he does but the game never expands on it in a way to allow him to grow except...

2) Has epiphany that both sides are neither good or evil. Now while I will admit that this is rather deep and profound its a baseless statement when placed in context of the games story. Where does Barrett come up with this revelation? When does Shin-Ra ever redeem themselves and show a good side? Cause they tried to save the planet from the WEAPONS and Meteor? Please, they blame the whole thing on Avalanche, and their methods are almost as damaging to the planet as they things they are trying to stop. Also Shin-Ra never states why they did this other than we don't want the world to end. They are saving themselves and would probably never care about anyone else. Course this is assumption but either way you look at it, you can't confirm it was a selfless act. Besides, if Shin-ra redeemed themselves, why does the party spend the entire second disc trying to stop them from saving the planet?

This thread will probably be shut down but if you wish to continue discussing it through PM I am more than happy to do so. :)

---

woah! Kanno, back from the dead. I was gettin worried. Anyway, i forgot what the hell we were arguin about... I guess all i got to say to your post:

1) that doesn't seem to be what Barret's story is all about. The issue is resolved if you remember the Corel episode during the scramble for the Huge Materia *cough*Crystals*cough*. He and the miners realize that the blame is rightfully placed on Shinra, and that they're stronger working together. I can relate to to the concept of kain's struggle, but not to the character. There's no backstory to it and it's not delved into on any level...quite unlike Barret.

2) He discusses this if you talk to him on the highwind, i believe on the way to midgar. And i don't think i've ever said Shinra redeemed themselves. Save the Turks and Reeve, the whole of them act selfishly evil throughout the entire game, which is why I was surprised with Rufus expressing regret in Advent Children (i think the game intended him to stay dead). Barret instead realizes that not everyone who works for Shinra is evil, and comes to understand that his original methods weren't the right way to go about it. This is tremendous development, which is absent from older characters, like Kain. But I believe that Kain's refusal to deal with what he's done right away played well for the story of FFIV.

It's good to hear from you again and I hope all is well. Things have been pretty boring on here.

---

Glad to be back for awhile. Personal life has been taking a hit but in a good way. I'm always happy to have stimulating conversation with you Bolivar ;)

Anyway...

1) The problem with the Corel scene is that Barrett is optional; which brings me up to my earlier point of having a wonderful setup to let his character shine but its wasted. Barrett doesn't even have to be there and the townsfolk come to this revelation. Even if Barrett is in your party the scenario doesn't alter to put him in account which is really sad and disappointing. I know I give Barrett a lot of smack but I actually do like him. Granted having him there gives a sorta feeling it might affect him, his lack of interaction makes it a poor scene to cite as a revelation for his character.

Kain does have little in detail of backstory compared to Barrett but he makes up for it with actions and a few choice words. He confesses to Cecil after Golbez's defeat that even though he had been corrupted it was based on true feelings of envy and jealousy, his feelings for Rosa are shone true beforehand cause his first thought when he awoke was to save Rosa rather than face Cecil. He betrays you many times but counters by saving your party's life afterwards. When he permanently joins you he fights with Edge who still refuses to trust him (for good reason) and Kain honorably chooses the path to let Edge kill him if this scenario happened. In the end, Kain chooses to leave and take his own journey of redemption that Cecil took. He knows he is weak but he strives to be strong cause he knows he cannot be happy fulfilling his own selfish desires. Of anything Kain's ending speaks volumes of his character if you are willing to delve a little deeper.

2) Once again an almost optional scene but as I stated he never gives any evidence how Shin-Ra isn't evil and just comes up with this epiphany. Its mostly speculation. I must laugh cause at this point the whole party literally devolves into a 2nd grade class assignment of "What I learned on my journey with Cloud!" where every character magically tells you their wonderful epiphany in the game, except VII doesn't have Kefka telling you to "shut up and how you sound like pages from a self help booklit" ;) Granted half the character do have well thought out answers it's just that story evidence doesn't make Barrets nearly as compelling as say Cid's epiphany. Perhaps the reasons were there, but I can't agree that the story told it well. I still feel that VII does have good writing its just not spaced out as well as I would like which is my problem with VI and IV.

---

1) I didn't realize Barret wasn't mandatory for that mission... it's a shame as I always thought it was a great scene, him making up for burden he had to bear for so long.

2) lol, yes, i agree it becomes into "What I learned on my journey with Cloud!" (lol @ magically tells you")

But that harkens back to my original point - as corny as this can be, this was the standard of dialogue for all games in the 16-bit era and before...

and again, that doesn't stop them from being some of my favorite games, but I can't see the merits of their characters being compared.

I agree VII suffers a bit from 16-bit era dialogue (and I don't think theres anything wrong with that) problems but as for character merits from older games to newer, I feel the newer games have few characters that are truly outstanding. Squall, Vivi, and Tidus come to mind as well as Lady Ashe but it seems to me that only a small handful of characters get any real depth and personal exploration and the rest are just there and are no better than their former counterparts. Even the quality of villains seems to be slacking recently and are no better than there 8 and 16 bit counterparts.

I would argue that Cecil, Kain, and a few choice characters from V and VI can hold there own against the new games. Granted their backstories are not as fleshed out but their trials and tribulations are just as compelling and well written as their contemparies. I look for growth in the characters and I see it in the older games just as I do in the newer. There might not be as much dialogue or droning over personal anguish but the journey still leads to a change.

Lord I think you and I have found a new subject to argue about...;)

Well I guess we can agree to disagree. I personally see the series as an ever-increasing growth in storytelling and gameplay with a few minor drawbacks in individual aspects of some games. XII keeps getting better and better for me as time goes on and also as I go back to re-play it.

I guess I can understand how someone who had a different gaming experience and expectations might fondly reminisce over the glory of an older era, but for me it looks like the best is yet to come.

I agree that the series is still growing and posseses the possibility of achieving great lengths in terms of character and story but I have a more pessimistic view.

I still feel like the series has gotten a bit off track and is beginning to fall into the same trappings of other storytelling media; its becoming formulatic(sp?). Playing through X again I get frustrated by how predictable and stale the writing and characters are compaed to earlier installments. XII regained some of my faith but I know most people hate its brand of storytelling and though I love XII's plot even I'm disappointed when I compare it to the Tactics teams earlier and more complex works.

Still the possibility is there but I've lost some faith in the current team cause I realize now when I look at everything else they've made that they wish to make movies and not "interactive experiences". The XIII Project may change my opinion but only time will tell.